Heavy armor needs buffed already.

tennant94

It's balanced.

Artjuh90

tennant94 wrote: »

It's balanced.

a scale is balanced. when it say 200 kg though something isn't right

Teridaxus

*bump*

munkt0r

If i'm understanding it correctly, heavy armor is "crap" because light and medium provide better DPS potential.

So in essence, mitigating damage and improving health regen are all heavy has going for it.

Being everyone uses shield spell/abilities + champion points for damage mitigation...heavy is "pointless".

I'm still relatively new to this game, but not RPG's and certainly not MMO's.

Imo, the real issue seems to be too many builds being able to NOT be squishy - which negates the need for heavy armor users...not that heavy armor itself is "bad".

Frawr

munkt0r wrote: »

If i'm understanding it correctly, heavy armor is "crap" because light and medium provide better DPS potential.

So in essence, mitigating damage and improving health regen are all heavy has going for it.

Being everyone uses shield spell/abilities + champion points for damage mitigation...heavy is "pointless".

I'm still relatively new to this game, but not RPG's and certainly not MMO's.

Imo, the real issue seems to be too many builds being able to NOT be squishy - which negates the need for heavy armor users...not that heavy armor itself is "bad".

heavy doesn't mitigate enough damage to offset vs the bonuses of light and medium.

soc1212

*Bump* - Heavy amour still needs buffing !

Forestd16b14_ESO

munkt0r wrote: »

If i'm understanding it correctly, heavy armor is "crap" because light and medium provide better DPS potential.

So in essence, mitigating damage and improving health regen are all heavy has going for it.

Being everyone uses shield spell/abilities + champion points for damage mitigation...heavy is "pointless".

I'm still relatively new to this game, but not RPG's and certainly not MMO's.

Imo, the real issue seems to be too many builds being able to NOT be squishy - which negates the need for heavy armor users...not that heavy armor itself is "bad".

Also the fact that LA and MA ave much better resource management than HA and all of HA passives and what ever else it has going for it is now in the champion system so a LA and MA can be tanky with out the use of HA whihc means they have the DPS bonuses of LA and MA and the tank bonuses of HA with CP.

Plus the fact there is no hard cap for DPS while mitigation and resistance is at a hard 50% cap. So it's basically 50% vs 200% who you think is gonna win.

Dermestes

Increase or remove the hard cap on resistances and HA may have a chance. Until then burst rules this game.

Hope499

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

*bump*

We have around 3 weeks left to get any buffs until they finish to tweak stuff on the pts.
The 4th is just polishing.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Please miss Gina look at these recommendations on what players want to change in HA.

Immovable
-cost: 2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration

~Immovable brute
-cost:2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Also gain minor brute increasing weapon power by 5%

~Unstoppable
-cost: 2000 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 30 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Reduce cost and last longer.

As a tank, i would LOVE some HA love...but those skills you suggested would BREAK the game.

immune to CC for ENTIRE duration?? Cmon now...that is a bit overboard.

The 5 is fine, and 10 would be pushing it....

Ffastyl

Hope499 wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

*bump*

We have around 3 weeks left to get any buffs until they finish to tweak stuff on the pts.
The 4th is just polishing.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Please miss Gina look at these recommendations on what players want to change in HA.

Immovable
-cost: 2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration

~Immovable brute
-cost:2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Also gain minor brute increasing weapon power by 5%

~Unstoppable
-cost: 2000 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 30 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Reduce cost and last longer.

As a tank, i would LOVE some HA love...but those skills you suggested would BREAK the game.

immune to CC for ENTIRE duration?? Cmon now...that is a bit overboard.

The 5 is fine, and 10 would be pushing it....

Immovable originally had CC immunity for the full duration. It was a great strength of Heavy Armor but in Update 6 Light Armor and Medium Armor began using it with no penalty, hence the current state. I made a suggestion to alter Immovable so the CC immunity scales with the amount of Heavy Armor used. I can dig it out of the pages if you don't want to look for it.

EnOeZ

@Wrobel, @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

This thread is desperately asking for Heavy Armor improvements especially for PVP. For once, there is full consensus on its weakness. I would like to underline that my fellow Heavy Armor users do not even realize how nightmarish it is, even in this thread! I made a summary for you from a PVP design perspective.

• Worst protection of all three armors since active mitigation (teleports, dodge rolls, shields...) > passive mitigation and you need resources to actively mitigate, resources that you need the most and you lack the most.
• Mitigation itself is bypassed due to armor penetration, spell penetration, siege damage and corrosive armor.
• A PVP Tank ? Sure but can still be obliterated in about 1s by magicka Nightblade gankers (when unaware looking at map for example, therefore not blocking and without shield or buff) with full impenetrable and 27K Health.

To sum up HA:

• Worst overall mitigation (active+passive)
• Worst resource management
• Worst DPS

Everything have been said ? Not at all and this is why:
Tanking cuts stamina regeneration which invites players to invest in cost reduction enchants since it also reduces the cost of dodge roll and still "work" while blocking.

Guess what !

• All potions enhance regeneration. Since their effect is multiplicative, the more regeneration you have, the more you benefit from them, putting Tanks at an additional disadvantage.
• More, "Continuous attack" from assault tree gives you multiplicative 20% regeneration to stamina and magicka, meaning all the non blocker players get another demultiplicative advantage over PVP Tanks.
• I did the math, with one action/second and two legendary cost reduction rings, you just cannot even come close in resources gained/spared with a regeneration build anyone but tanks have access to.

You think it is enough ? Are you kidding ?
The combat design team introduced several patches ago the mechanic of heavy attacks returning resources. Great ! But so what ? Well if you wear Heavy Armor, I suppose your intent is to fight in the very heat of battle right ? Probably in melee, otherwise do not waste your time (apart for understandable fashion purposes) in Heavy. But in PVP, outside of scripted combat, heavy attacking in melee is

• slow
• cumbersome
• deadly (but to us)

Why ? Because you cannot light or heavy attack while holding block. You just cannot release block when you lead the charge or are the first line of defense, especially for a full second or two to weave your sword... while all those range players in light and medium can from safety. Releasing block to weave an entire heavy attack on a moving target when you play as a heavy warrior should and want to, in the middle of every bloody battle. Alike, ultimate generation for melee characters* is problematic, since all rangers start generating ultimate several seconds before you and more steadily since they have easily a target in range.


So to the above list of three we need to add three more:

1. Worst overall mitigation (active+passive)
2. Worst resource management
3. Worst DPS
4. Worst consumable integration (potions scaling with stam/mag regeneration enhancing med/light)
5. Worst PVP integration ("Continuous Attack" passive)
6. Worst Combat Mechanic integration (heavy attacks for resources and ultimate generation*)

Why does it matter ? Well the PVP base in Heavy Armor just do not enjoy the game as Magicka sorc and Nightblades do in light armor or even Stamblades/StamDKs in medium do. It is simply a burden we support thanks to our passion for the game.

The tiny remaining base of PVP Tanks try to shape the game where there is no "front" in the war, where mobility is key with battles of range vs range players only, which is paramount in taking and defending keeps (boring time during which melee fighters feel even more useless).

There is an entire base of players in Heavy Armor enjoying less and less the game (less resources means less gameplay) trying to support a playstyle with passion (or should I say devotion ?). They need more of everything: more escape mechanisms, more resources, more mitigation but we have less of everything. They die more because they wear by far the worst designed armor and have to ride hours each PVP session, which was not the original purpose of the game.

Heavy Armor needs so badly a redesign to be brought on par with the other two armors that many of us were disappointed not to have (once more) a single mention of it in the PTS patch notes: sure we spend some time in IC or Wrothgar but we spend ALL OUR PLAYTIME IN HEAVY ! Please support us so that we can support you for a long time ! Make Cyrodiil a place enjoyable to Heavy Armor users too.

As for solutions, I made so many proposals already to improve the design (cf links below)... but the most sexy, elegant and exciting design choice for game's diversity and interest would be to base Heavy Armor "signature" not on Health but also on a resource like light (magicka) and medium (stamina) do: Ultimate ! More ultimate generation, more ultimate damage which would fit the ESO "lore" of a bloodthirsty melee warrior which was the original design intent if we rely on the cinematics who brought us to the game (Nord Fighter) or the sadly deceptive names chosen for the HA tree passives ("Juggernaut", "Resolve..."). We can agree that currently, they do not reflect reality at all


With love


*For this writing, some Melee issues (Sword and Board / Two Hand) are tied to Heavy from a gameplay perspective, assuming that if you wear HA it's that you need and/or want to fight in close range, therefore with melee weapons.

--
Writing on the dwindling state of Stamina Heavy Armor PVP Stam DK since 2015
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2682137/#Comment_2682137
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/246221/dk-abilities-redistribution/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/209592/heavy-attack-mechanics-and-bonuses-are-unfair-to-melee-weapon-characters/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/148711/1-6-pts-heavy-armor-feedback/p1

Dubhliam

Immovable should be improved so that the player gets the CC immunity time increased for 1 second per HA equipped.
Anything else is overkill.

WalkingLegacy

@EnOeZ

Great post

Taryf

Tank should be Tank.
Heavy Armor should be best (but not only) for Tank.
I really hope that HA will "soon but no ETA" love that it deserve.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Hope499 wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

*bump*

We have around 3 weeks left to get any buffs until they finish to tweak stuff on the pts.
The 4th is just polishing.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Please miss Gina look at these recommendations on what players want to change in HA.

Immovable
-cost: 2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration

~Immovable brute
-cost:2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Also gain minor brute increasing weapon power by 5%

~Unstoppable
-cost: 2000 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 30 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Reduce cost and last longer.

As a tank, i would LOVE some HA love...but those skills you suggested would BREAK the game.

immune to CC for ENTIRE duration?? Cmon now...that is a bit overboard.

The 5 is fine, and 10 would be pushing it....

Uh no immovable originally had the CC immunity the full duration and yes players called it OP but that was cause literally every one one using it in PvP because even as now you don't even need to wear a single piece of HA to use the skill. So every one running CC immunity made nearly all forms of CC pointless hence the nerf. But instead of doing the smart thing of making so you needed 5+ pieces of HA to use it like nearly every one suggested ZOS just straight up nerfs it to be useless for HA users/tanks

Hope499

EnOeZ wrote: »

@Wrobel, @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

This thread is desperately asking for Heavy Armor improvements especially for PVP. For once, there is full consensus on its weakness. I would like to underline that my fellow Heavy Armor users do not even realize how nightmarish it is, even in this thread! I made a summary for you from a PVP design perspective.

• Worst protection of all three armors since active mitigation (teleports, dodge rolls, shields...) > passive mitigation and you need resources to actively mitigate, resources that you need the most and you lack the most.
• Mitigation itself is bypassed due to armor penetration, spell penetration, siege damage and corrosive armor.
• A PVP Tank ? Sure but can still be obliterated in about 1s by magicka Nightblade gankers (when unaware looking at map for example, therefore not blocking and without shield or buff) with full impenetrable and 27K Health.

To sum up HA:

• Worst overall mitigation (active+passive)
• Worst resource management
• Worst DPS

Everything have been said ? Not at all and this is why:
Tanking cuts stamina regeneration which invites players to invest in cost reduction enchants since it also reduces the cost of dodge roll and still "work" while blocking.

Guess what !

• All potions enhance regeneration. Since their effect is multiplicative, the more regeneration you have, the more you benefit from them, putting Tanks at an additional disadvantage.
• More, "Continuous attack" from assault tree gives you multiplicative 20% regeneration to stamina and magicka, meaning all the non blocker players get another demultiplicative advantage over PVP Tanks.
• I did the math, with one action/second and two legendary cost reduction rings, you just cannot even come close in resources gained/spared with a regeneration build anyone but tanks have access to.

You think it is enough ? Are you kidding ?
The combat design team introduced several patches ago the mechanic of heavy attacks returning resources. Great ! But so what ? Well if you wear Heavy Armor, I suppose your intent is to fight in the very heat of battle right ? Probably in melee, otherwise do not waste your time (apart for understandable fashion purposes) in Heavy. But in PVP, outside of scripted combat, heavy attacking in melee is

• slow
• cumbersome
• deadly (but to us)

Why ? Because you cannot light or heavy attack while holding block. You just cannot release block when you lead the charge or are the first line of defense, especially for a full second or two to weave your sword... while all those range players in light and medium can from safety. Releasing block to weave an entire heavy attack on a moving target when you play as a heavy warrior should and want to, in the middle of every bloody battle. Alike, ultimate generation for melee characters* is problematic, since all rangers start generating ultimate several seconds before you and more steadily since they have easily a target in range.


So to the above list of three we need to add three more:

1. Worst overall mitigation (active+passive)
2. Worst resource management
3. Worst DPS
4. Worst consumable integration (potions scaling with stam/mag regeneration enhancing med/light)
5. Worst PVP integration ("Continuous Attack" passive)
6. Worst Combat Mechanic integration (heavy attacks for resources and ultimate generation*)

Why does it matter ? Well the PVP base in Heavy Armor just do not enjoy the game as Magicka sorc and Nightblades do in light armor or even Stamblades/StamDKs in medium do. It is simply a burden we support thanks to our passion for the game.

The tiny remaining base of PVP Tanks try to shape the game where there is no "front" in the war, where mobility is key with battles of range vs range players only, which is paramount in taking and defending keeps (boring time during which melee fighters feel even more useless).

There is an entire base of players in Heavy Armor enjoying less and less the game (less resources means less gameplay) trying to support a playstyle with passion (or should I say devotion ?). They need more of everything: more escape mechanisms, more resources, more mitigation but we have less of everything. They die more because they wear by far the worst designed armor and have to ride hours each PVP session, which was not the original purpose of the game.

Heavy Armor needs so badly a redesign to be brought on par with the other two armors that many of us were disappointed not to have (once more) a single mention of it in the PTS patch notes: sure we spend some time in IC or Wrothgar but we spend ALL OUR PLAYTIME IN HEAVY ! Please support us so that we can support you for a long time ! Make Cyrodiil a place enjoyable to Heavy Armor users too.

As for solutions, I made so many proposals already to improve the design (cf links below)... but the most sexy, elegant and exciting design choice for game's diversity and interest would be to base Heavy Armor "signature" not on Health but also on a resource like light (magicka) and medium (stamina) do: Ultimate ! More ultimate generation, more ultimate damage which would fit the ESO "lore" of a bloodthirsty melee warrior which was the original design intent if we rely on the cinematics who brought us to the game (Nord Fighter) or the sadly deceptive names chosen for the HA tree passives ("Juggernaut", "Resolve..."). We can agree that currently, they do not reflect reality at all


With love


*For this writing, some Melee issues (Sword and Board / Two Hand) are tied to Heavy from a gameplay perspective, assuming that if you wear HA it's that you need and/or want to fight in close range, therefore with melee weapons.

--
Writing on the dwindling state of Stamina Heavy Armor PVP Stam DK since 2015
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2682137/#Comment_2682137
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/246221/dk-abilities-redistribution/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/209592/heavy-attack-mechanics-and-bonuses-are-unfair-to-melee-weapon-characters/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/148711/1-6-pts-heavy-armor-feedback/p1

This is an amazing post man....nailed it on every level.

Egonic

It is quite boring as a tank in dungeons that are very easy and all you do is taunt and hold block and if you don't you die...
Why was stamina regen while blocking removed if armor values still suck, you are still forced to play the same way.

As a v4 DK tank, I have no damage, the abilities in sword/shield and in DK skill tree that I use as a tank suck, if I use them for minor dps, I lose stamina that I need to keep standing there holding block as a meat shield.
My character has used Heavy since I made it and I would rather quit then doing it again, solo play has been awful, with no damage, no mobility and having sorcs force me to leave areas since you can't compete in damage or mobility and you are melee which is even more of a disadvantage.

Maybe it's just me but my two biggest issues I have is no damage and forced to hold block all the time.
Some damage mitigation when I am not blocking would be nice, and of course it wouldn't stack when blocking and require x amount of heavy armor pieces equipped.

AFrostWolf

Lets quickly compare what 1 of each armor set provides you in terms of passive bonus:
LA: 3% magicka cost reduction, 4% magicka recovery, 363 Spell Resist.
MA: 328 crit, 4% stam recovery, 3% cost reduction, 3% increase in move speed, 4% reduction in dodge roll.
HA: 362 Armor, 4% health recovery, 49 Stam and Magicka Return when hit every four seconds, 1% extra health, 1% increased healing.

Heavy armor sucks.

Resolve: Currently, this passive blows. It offers far too little to HA to be of any real use. What I suggest is to, in addition to the armor buff, add 2/3/4% block cost reduction for each piece of heavy armor. This is a small buff to the bracing passive that will essentially be incorporated into resolve allowing us to give bracing the love it sorely desires.

Constitution: The passive is on the right track, but is completely underwhelming and ultimately makes tanking far less fun than it should be. IMO this should be the single most attractive passive in HA. Increase the base value to 100 per HA piece and change the return from a 4 second cooldown proc to a 25% chance to proc (ICD of 1 second). This provides the tank with much needed resources when he needs them most - i.e. getting swarmed. Tanks have the skills to deal with swarms of mobs/players but don't have the passives to do it EFFICIENTLY. This helps to alleviate that issue. Increase Health Recovery modifier to 8% per piece. The tank will be less effective against solo bosses or against solo players, but more effective against the masses helping tanks to fall into their PVP role as desired by the devs intent.

Juggernaut: Another passive that's borderline useless and certainly doesn't live up to it's name. Double HP value and provide a flat damage reduction bonus of .5/1% per piece of HA equipped. This also assists in giving the HA user some means of passively dealing with penetration. The Heavy Armor user isn't using roll dodge or magicka for absorbing damage, they are using their armor - its needs to have the capability to absorb damage so it may efficiently use it's resources.
Bracing This passive needs to be completely reworked into something devastatingly tanky allowing the tank to properly fight back and/or re-engage an opponent. I propose that this passive adds additional time to break free immunity by 1/2 seconds (ala Alessian set), reduces all incoming damage by 10/20% for 5 seconds (ala Reactive) and provides Minor/Major brutality for 5 seconds WHEN BREAKING FREE (edit). What does this give a HA user? It gives them a meaningful and viable method of being on the offensive with what little resources he/she may have while also providing the damage reduction to absorb future instagib damage and continue fighting on.

Rapid Mending: Our final passive, and arguably the worst passive in the game. This passive *** blows big time. I propose that this passive works much akin to how the Pariah set bonus works but with HEALTH RECOVERY. Increase healthy recovery as your health decreases by 50/100% when wearing 5 heavy.


Stolen from /u/ChiefBigBlockPontiac on reddit. Very valid points though.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Due to some recent post let us take a look at what players want in changes shall we.

Immovable
-cost: 2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration

~Immovable brute
-cost:2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Also have a 30% when attacked to set enemies either off balanced or concussed for 7 seconds.

~Unstoppable
-cost: 2000 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 30 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Reduce cost and last longer.


Constitution.
-Increases health recovery by 5% per piece of heavy armor equip and allows stamina regen while blocking if wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor and increases magicka and stamina recovery by 5% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor.

Resolve
-Increases physical and spell resistance by 2% per piece of heavy armor equip and increases critical resistance by 4% per piece of heavy armor equip.

Juggernaut
-Increases max health by 3% per piece of heavy armor equip and reduce cost of break free by 35% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor and when effect by snare,stun,CC effects reduce damage dealt to you by 15%

Bracing
- reduce cost of blocking by 35% and block additional 5% damage (regardless if using a shield or not) and reduce physical/spell penetration effect by 40% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor.

Rapid mending
- increase healing receive by 2% per piece of heavy armor equip and increases health recovery by 75% when health falls below 30% in addition reduce snare effects by 25% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor.


More or less of some more suggestions players asked for ZOS.

hrothbern

My post is not for HA used for the taunting Tank in dedicated groups doing really some hard content together.
My post is for HA in general.

Many constructive threads and comments describe in many aspects the issue that HA is weaker than LA & MA.

and despite all our posts.... perhaps....
A. @Wrobel still thinks that HA is too strong and needs further tweaking in the course of time.

B. or....... he is quite content with the current Armor balance

C. or..... he has a couple of things in mind and intends to do something in the course of time

We don't know.... in fact.... we don't know nothing !!!

except that we struggle.... and do not want to give up on HA.....

But I think we can go on posting on HA forever if we do not know the postion of Eric and do not understand the main considerations for his position.
I think it would be very helpfull for thinking aloud together about HA if Eric Wrobel would give us some insight where he stands: A, B, C or something else.

If his position comes from a high end Excel table calculation. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong. Because when I do that excel math, the balance between HA and LA seems pretty much ok.

If his position comes from bot simulations on an internal server. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong if the AI of those bots are at the same level as NPC's and not to forget the AI of the Sorcerer pets.
The creativity of real players in PVP CANNOT be simulated by bots... in my humble opinion.... and will lead to missing out on the many side effect, soft factors and synergies with sets, rotations and foremost tactical positioning during playing.... will lead to missing out on the multitude of advantages of LA & MA that CANNOT be simulated with Excel math or stupid bots.


If his position comes from some excellent HA players that clearly show that HA is OP.... Fine. But then I would love to see some video's where we can improve our L2P

If his position comes from statistical analysises from active and succesfull end game builds, indicating / proving that HA is strong an a valid choice. Fine. Share some high level info with us. For now, my info is that 5+ HA is moving towards an ancient but stubborn race, with some niche applications

I can go on with speculations in a wall of paper..... But I will not and conclude:

Eric, could you please enlighten us, high level of course, with some guidance where you stand on HA and what your main consideration are for the Armor balance.

That will make subsequent thoughts, posts and discussions much more productive and not so hopelessly frustrating.

I think we deserve that with all our efforts in constructive thoughts and posts on this topic.

Flak

I think heavy armor is fine in PvE, problem for PvP is that a normal damage oriented light or medium armor build is having 50-70% penetration, so when ur at the armor Cap it's not 50% mitigation like in PvE but 20-25%.
The Champion Point Passives mitigation on the other hand is not affected by this.
I think only Heavy Armor should have a high Blockmitigation/Cost reduction. A light armor build with a Shield can still block a lot, that should be reserved for heavy armor.

Forestd16b14_ESO

hrothbern wrote: »

My post is not for HA used for the taunting Tank in dedicated groups doing really some hard content together.
My post is for HA in general.

Many constructive threads and comments describe in many aspects the issue that HA is weaker than LA & MA.

and despite all our posts.... perhaps....
A. @Wrobel still thinks that HA is too strong and needs further tweaking in the course of time.

B. or....... he is quite content with the current Armor balance

C. or..... he has a couple of things in mind and intends to do something in the course of time

We don't know.... in fact.... we don't no nothing !!!

except that we struggle.... and do not want to give up on HA.....

But I think we can go on posting on HA forever if we do not know the postion of Eric and do not understand the main considerations for his position.
I think it would be very helpfull for thinking aloud together about HA if Eric Wrobel would give us some insight where he stands: A, B, C or something else.

If his position comes from a high end Excel table calculation. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong. Because when I do that excel math, the balance between HA and LA seems pretty much ok.

If his position comes from bot simulations on an internal server. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong if the AI of those bots are at the same level as NPC's and not to forget the AI of the Sorcerer pets.
The creativity of real players in PVP CANNOT be simulated by bots... in my humble opinion.... and will lead to missing out on the many side effect, soft factors and synergies with sets, rotations and foremost tactical positioning during playing.... will lead to missing out on the multitude of advantages of LA & MA that CANNOT be simulated with Excel math or stupid bots.


If his position comes from some excellent HA players that clearly show that HA is OP.... Fine. But then I would love to see some video's where we can improve our L2P

If his position comes from statistical analysises from active and succesfull end game builds, indicating / proving that HA is strong an a valid choice. Fine. Share some high level info with us. For now, my info is that 5+ HA is moving towards an ancient but stubborn race, with some niche applications

I can go on with speculations in a wall of paper..... But I will not and conclude:

Eric, could you please enlighten us, high level of course, with some guidance where you stand on HA and what your main consideration are for the Armor balance.

That will make subsequent thoughts, posts and discussions much more productive and not so hopelessly frustrating.

I think we deserve that with all our efforts in constructive thoughts and posts on this topic.

Yes that is true mister Eric Wroble does need to give some info on their stance with the armor and way HA has gotten nothing but nerfs. Yes their are still "those unkillable players" but that is no reason not to buff up HA and as for PvE sorry but PvE content is just so laughably easy now any armor is tank armor in it.

CP5

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Due to some recent post let us take a look at what players want in changes shall we.

Immovable
-cost: 2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration

~Immovable brute
-cost:2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Also have a 30% when attacked to set enemies either off balanced or concussed for 7 seconds.

~Unstoppable
-cost: 2000 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 30 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Reduce cost and last longer.


Constitution.
-Increases health recovery by 5% per piece of heavy armor equip and allows stamina regen while blocking if wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor and increases magicka and stamina recovery by 5% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor.

Resolve
-Increases physical and spell resistance by 2% per piece of heavy armor equip and increases critical resistance by 4% per piece of heavy armor equip.

Juggernaut
-Increases max health by 3% per piece of heavy armor equip and reduce cost of break free by 35% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor and when effect by snare,stun,CC effects reduce damage dealt to you by 15%

Bracing
- reduce cost of blocking by 35% and block additional 5% damage (regardless if using a shield or not) and reduce physical/spell penetration effect by 40% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor.

Rapid mending
- increase healing receive by 2% per piece of heavy armor equip and increases health recovery by 75% when health falls below 30% in addition reduce snare effects by 25% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor.


More or less of some more suggestions players asked for ZOS.

I would love these. I want to go diving into zergs again like I did forever ago and just survive. Those were so pointless but also so much fun.

Forestd16b14_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Due to some recent post let us take a look at what players want in changes shall we.

Immovable
-cost: 2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration

~Immovable brute
-cost:2500 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 25 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Also have a 30% when attacked to set enemies either off balanced or concussed for 7 seconds.

~Unstoppable
-cost: 2000 stamina
-requirements: 5+ heavy armor pieces equip
-duration: 30 seconds.
-effect: gain major resolve and major ward increasing physical and spell resistance by 5500 amount and gain full immunity to CC and knockdown/back for entire duration. Reduce cost and last longer.


Constitution.
-Increases health recovery by 5% per piece of heavy armor equip and allows stamina regen while blocking if wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor and increases magicka and stamina recovery by 5% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor.

Resolve
-Increases physical and spell resistance by 2% per piece of heavy armor equip and increases critical resistance by 4% per piece of heavy armor equip.

Juggernaut
-Increases max health by 3% per piece of heavy armor equip and reduce cost of break free by 35% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor and when effect by snare,stun,CC effects reduce damage dealt to you by 15%

Bracing
- reduce cost of blocking by 35% and block additional 5% damage (regardless if using a shield or not) and reduce physical/spell penetration effect by 40% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor.

Rapid mending
- increase healing receive by 2% per piece of heavy armor equip and increases health recovery by 75% when health falls below 30% in addition reduce snare effects by 25% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor.


More or less of some more suggestions players asked for ZOS.

I would love these. I want to go diving into zergs again like I did forever ago and just survive. Those were so pointless but also so much fun.

@CP5 Eeehhhh yea that would be nice but sorry that's kinda the reason why tanks and HA are int eh horrible state they are in now. Like yes to surviving 3 or 5 players but no to well you know.

joleda4ub17_ESO

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Instead of the HA passive that gives a bonus to armor rating, it should give a flat extra 2/3/4% damage reduction.

that would be interesting, but damage mitigation tends to be extremely diminished in how it adds up. We could lose something mediocre and gain something of no value if the right values aren't used.

What if that bonus damage reduction could not be bypassed even in PVP? It only applies to Heavy Armor and wearing Heavy Armor would mean you give up damage for resilience.

hrothbern

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

My post is not for HA used for the taunting Tank in dedicated groups doing really some hard content together.
My post is for HA in general.

Many constructive threads and comments describe in many aspects the issue that HA is weaker than LA & MA.

and despite all our posts.... perhaps....
A. @Wrobel still thinks that HA is too strong and needs further tweaking in the course of time.

B. or....... he is quite content with the current Armor balance

C. or..... he has a couple of things in mind and intends to do something in the course of time

We don't know.... in fact.... we don't no nothing !!!

except that we struggle.... and do not want to give up on HA.....

But I think we can go on posting on HA forever if we do not know the postion of Eric and do not understand the main considerations for his position.
I think it would be very helpfull for thinking aloud together about HA if Eric Wrobel would give us some insight where he stands: A, B, C or something else.

If his position comes from a high end Excel table calculation. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong. Because when I do that excel math, the balance between HA and LA seems pretty much ok.

If his position comes from bot simulations on an internal server. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong if the AI of those bots are at the same level as NPC's and not to forget the AI of the Sorcerer pets.
The creativity of real players in PVP CANNOT be simulated by bots... in my humble opinion.... and will lead to missing out on the many side effect, soft factors and synergies with sets, rotations and foremost tactical positioning during playing.... will lead to missing out on the multitude of advantages of LA & MA that CANNOT be simulated with Excel math or stupid bots.


If his position comes from some excellent HA players that clearly show that HA is OP.... Fine. But then I would love to see some video's where we can improve our L2P

If his position comes from statistical analysises from active and succesfull end game builds, indicating / proving that HA is strong an a valid choice. Fine. Share some high level info with us. For now, my info is that 5+ HA is moving towards an ancient but stubborn race, with some niche applications

I can go on with speculations in a wall of paper..... But I will not and conclude:

Eric, could you please enlighten us, high level of course, with some guidance where you stand on HA and what your main consideration are for the Armor balance.

That will make subsequent thoughts, posts and discussions much more productive and not so hopelessly frustrating.

I think we deserve that with all our efforts in constructive thoughts and posts on this topic.

Yes that is true mister Eric Wroble does need to give some info on their stance with the armor and way HA has gotten nothing but nerfs. Yes their are still "those unkillable players" but that is no reason not to buff up HA and as for PvE sorry but PvE content is just so laughably easy now any armor is tank armor in it.

yeah

and "those unkillable players"...
I would really like to see video's from that.
Is that coming from superior player tactics with good synergy with HA ?
In which case I have some L2P to do.
Or coming from ppl's that are confronted with a situation they cannot handle, making a player, a build seemingly "unkillable" ?

I really would like to see videos on that.
Because if those videos show only an imbalance of players in PVP.......
It would be very sad if that is interpretated as proof of the strenght of HA.

One incidental imbalance leading to another imbalance (and a structural inbalance as well)

Forestd16b14_ESO

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

My post is not for HA used for the taunting Tank in dedicated groups doing really some hard content together.
My post is for HA in general.

Many constructive threads and comments describe in many aspects the issue that HA is weaker than LA & MA.

and despite all our posts.... perhaps....
A. @Wrobel still thinks that HA is too strong and needs further tweaking in the course of time.

B. or....... he is quite content with the current Armor balance

C. or..... he has a couple of things in mind and intends to do something in the course of time

We don't know.... in fact.... we don't no nothing !!!

except that we struggle.... and do not want to give up on HA.....

But I think we can go on posting on HA forever if we do not know the postion of Eric and do not understand the main considerations for his position.
I think it would be very helpfull for thinking aloud together about HA if Eric Wrobel would give us some insight where he stands: A, B, C or something else.

If his position comes from a high end Excel table calculation. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong. Because when I do that excel math, the balance between HA and LA seems pretty much ok.

If his position comes from bot simulations on an internal server. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong if the AI of those bots are at the same level as NPC's and not to forget the AI of the Sorcerer pets.
The creativity of real players in PVP CANNOT be simulated by bots... in my humble opinion.... and will lead to missing out on the many side effect, soft factors and synergies with sets, rotations and foremost tactical positioning during playing.... will lead to missing out on the multitude of advantages of LA & MA that CANNOT be simulated with Excel math or stupid bots.


If his position comes from some excellent HA players that clearly show that HA is OP.... Fine. But then I would love to see some video's where we can improve our L2P

If his position comes from statistical analysises from active and succesfull end game builds, indicating / proving that HA is strong an a valid choice. Fine. Share some high level info with us. For now, my info is that 5+ HA is moving towards an ancient but stubborn race, with some niche applications

I can go on with speculations in a wall of paper..... But I will not and conclude:

Eric, could you please enlighten us, high level of course, with some guidance where you stand on HA and what your main consideration are for the Armor balance.

That will make subsequent thoughts, posts and discussions much more productive and not so hopelessly frustrating.

I think we deserve that with all our efforts in constructive thoughts and posts on this topic.

Yes that is true mister Eric Wroble does need to give some info on their stance with the armor and way HA has gotten nothing but nerfs. Yes their are still "those unkillable players" but that is no reason not to buff up HA and as for PvE sorry but PvE content is just so laughably easy now any armor is tank armor in it.

yeah

and "those unkillable players"...
I would really like to see video's from that.
Is that coming from superior player tactics with good synergy with HA ?
In which case I have some L2P to do.
Or coming from ppl's that are confronted with a situation they cannot handle, making a player, a build seemingly "unkillable"

I really would like to see videos on that.
Because if those videos show only an imbalance of players in PVP.......
It would be very sad if that is interpretated as proof of the strenght of HA.

One imbalnce leading to another.

Well from what I understand it's just them decked out in end game gold VR16 HA perma-blocking behind a shield and filling in what every else they need thanks to CP while having some one heal them and even then give a few seconds they'll die jsut takes longer but hey as it is know jsut beat on it long enough and it dies.

But all honestly their is nothing to learn their just delaying their death by like 10 seconds that's it still kinda proves at HA uselessness in PvP cause as sure alot of players seen shield stackers and perma-rollers last way longer.

sneakymitchell

In order to get great mitigation why not but points in cp with a load of points in hardy and elemently defender when thieves guild comes out get ready to get 120 unchained stamina build wrecking blowers.

This is how heavy armor can be useless most the time.

hrothbern

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

My post is not for HA used for the taunting Tank in dedicated groups doing really some hard content together.
My post is for HA in general.

Many constructive threads and comments describe in many aspects the issue that HA is weaker than LA & MA.

and despite all our posts.... perhaps....
A. @Wrobel still thinks that HA is too strong and needs further tweaking in the course of time.

B. or....... he is quite content with the current Armor balance

C. or..... he has a couple of things in mind and intends to do something in the course of time

We don't know.... in fact.... we don't no nothing !!!

except that we struggle.... and do not want to give up on HA.....

But I think we can go on posting on HA forever if we do not know the postion of Eric and do not understand the main considerations for his position.
I think it would be very helpfull for thinking aloud together about HA if Eric Wrobel would give us some insight where he stands: A, B, C or something else.

If his position comes from a high end Excel table calculation. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong. Because when I do that excel math, the balance between HA and LA seems pretty much ok.

If his position comes from bot simulations on an internal server. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong if the AI of those bots are at the same level as NPC's and not to forget the AI of the Sorcerer pets.
The creativity of real players in PVP CANNOT be simulated by bots... in my humble opinion.... and will lead to missing out on the many side effect, soft factors and synergies with sets, rotations and foremost tactical positioning during playing.... will lead to missing out on the multitude of advantages of LA & MA that CANNOT be simulated with Excel math or stupid bots.


If his position comes from some excellent HA players that clearly show that HA is OP.... Fine. But then I would love to see some video's where we can improve our L2P

If his position comes from statistical analysises from active and succesfull end game builds, indicating / proving that HA is strong an a valid choice. Fine. Share some high level info with us. For now, my info is that 5+ HA is moving towards an ancient but stubborn race, with some niche applications

I can go on with speculations in a wall of paper..... But I will not and conclude:

Eric, could you please enlighten us, high level of course, with some guidance where you stand on HA and what your main consideration are for the Armor balance.

That will make subsequent thoughts, posts and discussions much more productive and not so hopelessly frustrating.

I think we deserve that with all our efforts in constructive thoughts and posts on this topic.

Yes that is true mister Eric Wroble does need to give some info on their stance with the armor and way HA has gotten nothing but nerfs. Yes their are still "those unkillable players" but that is no reason not to buff up HA and as for PvE sorry but PvE content is just so laughably easy now any armor is tank armor in it.

yeah

and "those unkillable players"...
I would really like to see video's from that.
Is that coming from superior player tactics with good synergy with HA ?
In which case I have some L2P to do.
Or coming from ppl's that are confronted with a situation they cannot handle, making a player, a build seemingly "unkillable"

I really would like to see videos on that.
Because if those videos show only an imbalance of players in PVP.......
It would be very sad if that is interpretated as proof of the strenght of HA.

One imbalnce leading to another.

Well from what I understand it's just them decked out in end game gold VR16 HA perma-blocking behind a shield and filling in what every else they need thanks to CP while having some one heal them and even then give a few seconds they'll die jsut takes longer but hey as it is know jsut beat on it long enough and it dies.

But all honestly their is nothing to learn their just delaying their death by like 10 seconds that's it still kinda proves at HA uselessness in PvP cause as sure alot of players seen shield stackers and perma-rollers last way longer.

yeah

But If perma blocking HA leads ONLY to dying much more slowly, that just cannot be interpretated as an OP HA behaviour.
ok... perhaps by some newbies, including foru whining, but not by ZOS.
The same happens with Damage Shield stacking Sorcs.
It takes quite some time beating before the big Magicka pool of a Sorc is depleted spamming shields. And if the opponents do not know how to handle that, it becomes hilaric

Forestd16b14_ESO

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

My post is not for HA used for the taunting Tank in dedicated groups doing really some hard content together.
My post is for HA in general.

Many constructive threads and comments describe in many aspects the issue that HA is weaker than LA & MA.

and despite all our posts.... perhaps....
A. @Wrobel still thinks that HA is too strong and needs further tweaking in the course of time.

B. or....... he is quite content with the current Armor balance

C. or..... he has a couple of things in mind and intends to do something in the course of time

We don't know.... in fact.... we don't no nothing !!!

except that we struggle.... and do not want to give up on HA.....

But I think we can go on posting on HA forever if we do not know the postion of Eric and do not understand the main considerations for his position.
I think it would be very helpfull for thinking aloud together about HA if Eric Wrobel would give us some insight where he stands: A, B, C or something else.

If his position comes from a high end Excel table calculation. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong. Because when I do that excel math, the balance between HA and LA seems pretty much ok.

If his position comes from bot simulations on an internal server. Fine. Then I know for myself that it goes wrong if the AI of those bots are at the same level as NPC's and not to forget the AI of the Sorcerer pets.
The creativity of real players in PVP CANNOT be simulated by bots... in my humble opinion.... and will lead to missing out on the many side effect, soft factors and synergies with sets, rotations and foremost tactical positioning during playing.... will lead to missing out on the multitude of advantages of LA & MA that CANNOT be simulated with Excel math or stupid bots.


If his position comes from some excellent HA players that clearly show that HA is OP.... Fine. But then I would love to see some video's where we can improve our L2P

If his position comes from statistical analysises from active and succesfull end game builds, indicating / proving that HA is strong an a valid choice. Fine. Share some high level info with us. For now, my info is that 5+ HA is moving towards an ancient but stubborn race, with some niche applications

I can go on with speculations in a wall of paper..... But I will not and conclude:

Eric, could you please enlighten us, high level of course, with some guidance where you stand on HA and what your main consideration are for the Armor balance.

That will make subsequent thoughts, posts and discussions much more productive and not so hopelessly frustrating.

I think we deserve that with all our efforts in constructive thoughts and posts on this topic.

Yes that is true mister Eric Wroble does need to give some info on their stance with the armor and way HA has gotten nothing but nerfs. Yes their are still "those unkillable players" but that is no reason not to buff up HA and as for PvE sorry but PvE content is just so laughably easy now any armor is tank armor in it.

yeah

and "those unkillable players"...
I would really like to see video's from that.
Is that coming from superior player tactics with good synergy with HA ?
In which case I have some L2P to do.
Or coming from ppl's that are confronted with a situation they cannot handle, making a player, a build seemingly "unkillable"

I really would like to see videos on that.
Because if those videos show only an imbalance of players in PVP.......
It would be very sad if that is interpretated as proof of the strenght of HA.

One imbalnce leading to another.

Well from what I understand it's just them decked out in end game gold VR16 HA perma-blocking behind a shield and filling in what every else they need thanks to CP while having some one heal them and even then give a few seconds they'll die jsut takes longer but hey as it is know jsut beat on it long enough and it dies.

But all honestly their is nothing to learn their just delaying their death by like 10 seconds that's it still kinda proves at HA uselessness in PvP cause as sure alot of players seen shield stackers and perma-rollers last way longer.

yeah

But If perma blocking HA leads ONLY to dying much more slowly, that just cannot be interpretated as an OP HA behaviour.
ok... perhaps by some newbies, including foru whining, but not by ZOS.
The same happens with Damage Shield stacking Sorcs.
It takes quite some time beating before the big Magicka pool of a Sorc is depleted spamming shields. And if the opponents do not know how to handle that, it becomes hilaric

But that's the problem a shield user has all these options to reduce cost and improve the damage shields such as LA alone not factoring all the sets and CP. It has been pretty much proven over and over damage shields is ESO best defense.