Champion System Catch-up Mechanic

Jitterbug

Xeven wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

If the cap was 3600 it would be 1902657 from 3599 to 3600. Problem we are having is with this implementation it is penalizing those that have not ground out 1000+ cp.

So someone at 2000 would need to get 2210934xp for 2001 cp. But this is not the case because earlier we found out that for 698th champ point you'll need 2377344.

((3599/(3600^0.95))+0.08)*400000 = 634,219

It's only tripled if you exceed the cap. It really is a fantastic formula.

lol mathgasm

Zinaroth

Paulington wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

yttoks wrote: »

Paulington wrote:

"Once you hit the cap of 600 it levels out and each CP over the cap requires 400k XP. This means that those people who continue playing will feel like they are progressing their character still and not having to earn millions of XP for ever infinitesimal gains. We have to remember that it is ultimately irrelevant if someone has 2,000 CP over the cap because they can only spend the cap so why artificially limit their CP gain rate? This game is "play your way", so if they want to grind CP before the cap so they can "cap out" as soon as it is raised, why not?"

I don't believe it is entirely "play your way" from ZoS's perspective. They don't want people to grind. The system going into place kills any motivation to grind CP above the cap. I think that is by design and an important objective for ZoS.

It does reward people who have been grinding away all along, and some people are bothered by this, but it will presumably cause them to stop doing so going forward.

Not sure how great a reward it is for the grinders, though. If they plan to raise the cap by 100 or so CP at a time, the grinders will have 100 or so CP advantage over people at the cap for awhile every time the cap goes up. The difference between 0 and 100 CP is large. Between 500 and 600, 1000 and 1100, not so much.

I think a plain cap would pretty much kill the motivation to grind above the cap. To me, the x3 penalty kills the motivation to play above the cap (and below the cap as well, once the XP per CP is significantly larger than 400k.)

This is a key bone of contention with me as well @AlnilamE.

Once I am requiring 500k-1,000k XP per CP I think "Well, what's the point?" and I feel as if I am putting in ridiculous amounts of effort for basically zero gain.

Compared to 400k XP flat above the cap where I feel like I am still doing something and will still gain at least 1 CP per day due to enlightenment, regardless of whether or not I can spend it.

If there is to be a cap, this would probably be the best solution so it doesn't get impossible (or near to it) to get CPs after the cap. I still think a different approach with no cap would be better though. ^^

Xandryah

jluchau wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

If the cap was 3600 it would be 1902657 from 3599 to 3600. Problem we are having is with this implementation it is penalizing those that have not ground out 1000+ cp.

So someone at 2000 would need to get 2210934xp for 2001 cp. But this is not the case because earlier we found out that for 698th champ point you'll need 2377344.

((3599/(3600^0.95))+0.08)*400000 = 634,219

It's only tripled if you exceed the cap.

So especially you're happy to have a rough number of 2-3 million per cp for anyone that remotely played the game since releaae?

I've played at least 5 days a weak since launch... I have 103 CP's currently. I understand I'm no where near as active as some but I suspect i'm about average. I suspect the way this works nobody will be in the 2-3 million xp per cp range.

i also have 103 or so points (and 0 toons btw but it would have taken me (according to what i calculated) around 144 Million XP to reach lvl 501. At 5 days a week and if cap-renewal is going to be every 3 months (90 days ), you'll need to earn:
1.6 Million XP every single day. If you are at 0 points, maybe 2 Million every single day, until sth changes (like vetaran 16 character creation from start); maybe i"ll check back then ... atm you'll just need to be a bit more patient

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

As a side note, the balance of the game becomes utterly ruined once you hit over ~1,200 CP. Getting to the max of 3,600 would be the end of the game as we know it. Yes, it's good to have longterm goals but CP were ill-conceived from the start and not correcting this error will cause way more harm than good. Specifically, no catchup mechanic will ever compensate for having to grind 2,000+ CP in a reasonable amount of time, the power gap is far too large. I hate to say it but CP needs a perma-cap and it should not exceed 1,440 (40% of 3,600).

Lastly, CP ruins build diversity since there is only a finite number of passives to select from. Every build should have a weakness or have to sacrifice a strength to compensate for such weakness(es). Once you have enough CP you can literally compensate for all of those shortcomings and still maximize your build's damage. The more CP you have the easier this is to accomplish. Worse yet, every other player with the same number of CP is doing exactly the same thing you are with almost no variation. DKs are the tanks, well not when every class has -25% damage from almost all sources (except physical). You want to deal damage with a DoT, well if it's magic or elemental it's getting -25% damage applied twice. The sytem is fun until you realizethat it breaks most of the game's mechanics.

the systems like the champion system should always evolve with the game. the finite 3600 now should later end up getting raised and new perks should be added to purchase with points. unfortunately, from what it sounds like, this IS the final revision of the champion system PERIOD. so on one hand we are both wrong, and on the other we are both right. i concede though, that you are more than likely right- they have no current intention to broaden the champion system. it doesn't help their new "catch-up" scheme at all. if it is finite, then we will still be "different" but to such a low degree, it won't have the "perceived value" that all products must have for the consumer to be interested in it.

AlnilamE wrote: »

yttoks wrote: »

Paulington wrote:

"Once you hit the cap of 600 it levels out and each CP over the cap requires 400k XP. This means that those people who continue playing will feel like they are progressing their character still and not having to earn millions of XP for ever infinitesimal gains. We have to remember that it is ultimately irrelevant if someone has 2,000 CP over the cap because they can only spend the cap so why artificially limit their CP gain rate? This game is "play your way", so if they want to grind CP before the cap so they can "cap out" as soon as it is raised, why not?"

I don't believe it is entirely "play your way" from ZoS's perspective. They don't want people to grind. The system going into place kills any motivation to grind CP above the cap. I think that is by design and an important objective for ZoS.

It does reward people who have been grinding away all along, and some people are bothered by this, but it will presumably cause them to stop doing so going forward.

Not sure how great a reward it is for the grinders, though. If they plan to raise the cap by 100 or so CP at a time, the grinders will have 100 or so CP advantage over people at the cap for awhile every time the cap goes up. The difference between 0 and 100 CP is large. Between 500 and 600, 1000 and 1100, not so much.

I think a plain cap would pretty much kill the motivation to grind above the cap. To me, the x3 penalty kills the motivation to play above the cap (and below the cap as well, once the XP per CP is significantly larger than 400k.)

this is by FAR my bigger concern- no paying players = no game.

hell i already don't have motivation to play. why play with 220 points, with gold still open to me, and 2 DLCs currently, one that releases a new system that demotivates current gameplay. i will benefit more from my game overall, not playing until this new system/DLC is launched.

with the way i play, ill have 340 by the end of gold, then i won't see a point to play much beyond that, so i won't buy the DLC. since ill be DLC hopping, i just don't see a point to the game at all.

Hiero_Glyph

The cost of a single CP should not exceed 400k unless ZOS rescales every player using the new CP exp system.

Hiero_Glyph

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

As a side note, the balance of the game becomes utterly ruined once you hit over ~1,200 CP. Getting to the max of 3,600 would be the end of the game as we know it. Yes, it's good to have longterm goals but CP were ill-conceived from the start and not correcting this error will cause way more harm than good. Specifically, no catchup mechanic will ever compensate for having to grind 2,000+ CP in a reasonable amount of time, the power gap is far too large. I hate to say it but CP needs a perma-cap and it should not exceed 1,440 (40% of 3,600).

Lastly, CP ruins build diversity since there is only a finite number of passives to select from. Every build should have a weakness or have to sacrifice a strength to compensate for such weakness(es). Once you have enough CP you can literally compensate for all of those shortcomings and still maximize your build's damage. The more CP you have the easier this is to accomplish. Worse yet, every other player with the same number of CP is doing exactly the same thing you are with almost no variation. DKs are the tanks, well not when every class has -25% damage from almost all sources (except physical). You want to deal damage with a DoT, well if it's magic or elemental it's getting -25% damage applied twice. The sytem is fun until you realizethat it breaks most of the game's mechanics.

the systems like the champion system should always evolve with the game. the finite 3600 now should later end up getting raised and new perks should be added to purchase with points. unfortunately, from what it sounds like, this IS the final revision of the champion system PERIOD. so on one hand we are both wrong, and on the other we are both right. i concede though, that you are more than likely right- they have no current intention to broaden the champion system. it doesn't help their new "catch-up" scheme at all. if it is finite, then we will still be "different" but to such a low degree, it won't have the "perceived value" that all products must have for the consumer to be interested in it.

If ZOS increased the number of CP anywhere near 3,600, let alone increased even more, the game just breaks. What happens is that the content would need to be made so difficult to handle the increase in overall player power that any player without as much CP are severely handicapped since they lack regen, passive bonuses, and additional resistance/damage. A lot of the players were around when ZOS let players create a character on the PTS with 3,600 CP and the results were just stupid. The challenge was gone and in PvP it just came down to who could exploit the mechanics the most, not about skill. The CP system also has an inherent stamina bias since there is no physical resistance passive. Anyway, your idea is noted but the game would be dead long before they get a chance to increase the CP system to exceed 3,600.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

As a side note, the balance of the game becomes utterly ruined once you hit over ~1,200 CP. Getting to the max of 3,600 would be the end of the game as we know it. Yes, it's good to have longterm goals but CP were ill-conceived from the start and not correcting this error will cause way more harm than good. Specifically, no catchup mechanic will ever compensate for having to grind 2,000+ CP in a reasonable amount of time, the power gap is far too large. I hate to say it but CP needs a perma-cap and it should not exceed 1,440 (40% of 3,600).

Lastly, CP ruins build diversity since there is only a finite number of passives to select from. Every build should have a weakness or have to sacrifice a strength to compensate for such weakness(es). Once you have enough CP you can literally compensate for all of those shortcomings and still maximize your build's damage. The more CP you have the easier this is to accomplish. Worse yet, every other player with the same number of CP is doing exactly the same thing you are with almost no variation. DKs are the tanks, well not when every class has -25% damage from almost all sources (except physical). You want to deal damage with a DoT, well if it's magic or elemental it's getting -25% damage applied twice. The sytem is fun until you realizethat it breaks most of the game's mechanics.

the systems like the champion system should always evolve with the game. the finite 3600 now should later end up getting raised and new perks should be added to purchase with points. unfortunately, from what it sounds like, this IS the final revision of the champion system PERIOD. so on one hand we are both wrong, and on the other we are both right. i concede though, that you are more than likely right- they have no current intention to broaden the champion system. it doesn't help their new "catch-up" scheme at all. if it is finite, then we will still be "different" but to such a low degree, it won't have the "perceived value" that all products must have for the consumer to be interested in it.

If ZOS increased the number of CP anywhere near 3,600, let alone increased even more, the game just breaks. What happens is that the content would need to be made so difficult to handle the increase in overall player power that any player without as much CP are severely handicapped since they lack regen, passive bonuses, and additional resistance/damage. A lot of the players were around when ZOS let players create a character on the PTS with 3,600 CP and the results were just stupid. The challenge was gone and in PvP it just came down to who could exploit the mechanics the most, not about skill. The CP system also has an inherent stamina bias since there is no physical resistance passive. Anyway, your idea is noted but the game would be dead long before they get a chance to increase the CP system to exceed 3,600.

its not my idea, but experience from OTHER similar systems. the content scales over time to accommodate the increase of power just like with levels. typically the catch up mechanism is also built in the content in the form of increased experience gains from mobs with relation to the current level cap.

example:

vr 1 mobs = 1000 experience

vr 5 mobs = 1500 experience

vr 10 mobs = 2000 experience

vr 15 mobs = 2500 experience

in other games its just what ever the end level cap is, here they are represented in the form of VRs. so as new content is produced, and the level cap is increased, the less time for players to receive champion points while simply going through content. thats why the current constant is so highly important. if they start raising experience required, they will have to greatly increase the experience return from mobs. what this will produce is an equal time, for equal work, for equal/lesser results, when compared to the current system. in other words, it doesn't solve the problem as much as it will just mask it, if you still won't get ahead. the higher the level the mobs the more experience, the more results, with a constant experience requirement, less or same work, with less or same work. for gradually more results.

so if the level cap is vr10 and i ground out, mobs for 2000 exp, when vr15 is released ill be able to grind for 2500exp. i got less on the front end than the next generation that goes straight to the new cap. the next generation gets to grind for 2500 experience per mob. who get more experience for the constant requirement. the experience leans towards the side to get you to the "minimum". so if i need 10cps to be viable for raiding, then the game is designed, experience wise, around that expectation. it gets more and more complicated as you dig deeper into the system.

for example, EQ's alternate ability system when i quit was set to the exp requirement equal to that of level 51. well at level 65 (cap), that system recieved experience as a level 51 getting expereience at the rate of a level 65. so at cap, you ended up flying through the system, because of an overall increase in the experience rate.

ESO can take that concept, and direct it into 1 time quests. so if the current content requires 200CP, they just have to make 1 time quests renders a total experience (without enlightenment) to equate to 200cps worth of experience. though this concept would have to be applied to prior older quests, and grade new quests based off those prior expectations. the older quests would have better net results than new ones, to prevent further deviation from the current gap, in the form of broadening it.

the common point all these alternate advancement systems, is no player ever "catches up". this system being released still WON"T catch anyone up to really anyone as much as it just bundles us up, in a much smaller range. the problem is then produced that the ones at the soft-cap and beyond, net little to no real substantial rewards for their effort, where those that are below the soft-cap, do. there is little incentive to do more than the bare minimum (its just the laws of nature), which could lead to a potential attrition rate that overwhelms new income, or more importantly maintain the needed funds for sustainment. i don't know how they could expect people to play an MMO the same way they would essentially play a console game, in such a fashion that produces a serious income to continue with the game.

Atarax

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

Not a fan of the way this was implemented. Here's what we asked for:

-A way for players with less CP to get within striking distance of players with more CP in a reasonable period of time

What you've done is:
1. Dis-incentivized players with lots of CP from playing by not only putting in a cap, but also significantly increasing their cost per CP
2. Made it HARDER for players with fewer CP to catch up once they get above a certain point
3. Lowered the cost of CP early on, but not enough to get someone on a level playing field in a reasonable period of time

A better implementation would be:
1. If you're over cap, you earn CP for each 400,000xp (it should never be above this).
2. If you're below cap, you earn CP more quickly (lower cost) the further away from the cap you are.

Design criteria should be as follows:
-A new VR player, earning an average amount of XP per day (I'll assume 1,000,000 as that is doable in a single play session if you try), should be able to get within X% of the cap (I'll assume 30%) within X days (I'll assume 30 days, as a month of constant play seems reasonable).

A formula that will allow that to happen is as follows (using excel terminology):
XP Cost for next CP=MIN(400,000,400,000/(CAP/(NEXT CP^(NEXT CP/CAP))))

I'll give two examples of how this formula will work, one at 500 CP Cap, and one at 3600 CP Cap (any formula needs to work for both):

500 CP Cap Example: 30,000,000 XP (or 30 days of playing)=503 CP, so you hit the cap in 30 days

Illustrative cost of some of the CP is as follows:

CP1=800 XP
CP100=2,009XP
CP400=96,546XP
CP500=400,000XP


3,600 CP Cap Example: 30,000,000 XP (or 30 days of playing)=2,928 CP, so you're within 80% of the cap in 30 days

Illustrative cost of some of the CP is as follows:

CP1=111 XP
CP100=126XP
CP500=263XP
CP1000=757XP
CP2000=7,580XP
CP3000=87,773XP
CP3600=400,000XP

Yep, players can become somewhat effective compared to the cap within a few days, and competitive within a month of playing. That's the point of a catch-up mechanic. They still have to work at it, but we're not talking about it taking 4 years on an average person's play schedule before they'll be able to compete in PvP or get into raids.

Note: If the previous poster is correct that we'll be able to generate more XP in the same play time going forward, then, obviously, you'd need to change this formula.

However, given that they are doing away with veteran ranks, and Orsimar will effectively battle-level players, I assume that maximum XP gain per hour will remain constant going forward.

Katinas

@ZOS_RyanRuzich
Remember when Champion Points was first introduced everyone who had at least one Veteran character started with 70 Champion Points? Could you perhaps focus some fast and easy (although not instant) Champion Points to players who are just starting out or at extremely low Champion Points instead?
For example, when the 501 CP cap launches offer a booster of (let's say) 100 CPs to new players who buy the game or purchase DLC (provided they start at zero CPs) to encourage them to have a reasonable amount of CPs to put them to a more level field with players who have played for months. When next CP cap comes in a few months time again provide boosters to new players or those that have a very low amount of CP and that are far behind. That would truly be a catch-up mechanic because many people see the benefit of Champion Points system but starting from absolute zero is hard and they want to get their hands on some of those early CP passives to "start" playing.
Please don't negate the effort and time players have spent by accumulating many Champion Points by putting them in a position where every CP after the cap they want to earn requires double, triple amount of time. Those people in general are much more active compared to newcomers and casual players, they are the core PVE and PVP players who keep you busy with providing them with fantastic content you provided us so far, they will pay for subscribing for even more content. Let the casual, new and returning players catch them up but don't penalise dedicated players by virtually stopping their progress until the next CP cap!

MrTtheDK

So currently I have a lot of CP and will be over the cap for the next patch. What I don't understand is why instead of making new soft caps for the game as far as CP goes instead just retroactively implement our current earned XP into the new system. I.E players that have earned 400,000,000 Million XP would be placed at a higher CP than they currently have and someone that has say ten times that number would be placed at a lower CP lvl than they currently have. This would effectively close the gap between players but also it wouldn't penalize players who earned high cp by making it next to impossible to feel progression in the next patch as your total earned experience would still be higher and intact. You also at this point would not need to implement CP soft caps but instead just scale 501-3600 at the current rate of increase (or a little more). Three times as much is a little excessive IMO and the current proposed system seems more like a nerf than a catch up mechanic. @ZOS_RyanRuzich

Zinaroth

Katinas wrote: »

Please don't negate the effort and time players have spent by accumulating many Champion Points by putting them in a position where every CP after the cap they want to earn requires double, triple amount of time. Those people in general are much more active compared to newcomers and casual players, they are the core PVE and PVP players who keep you busy with providing them with fantastic content you provided us so far, they will pay for subscribing for even more content. Let the casual, new and returning players catch them up but don't penalise dedicated players by virtually stopping their progress until the next CP cap!

Pretty much this.
Everyone feel free to check out my suggestion at:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/223595/suggestion-alternative-cp-advancement#latest

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

Atarax wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

Not a fan of the way this was implemented. Here's what we asked for:

-A way for players with less CP to get within striking distance of players with more CP in a reasonable period of time

What you've done is:
1. Dis-incentivized players with lots of CP from playing by not only putting in a cap, but also significantly increasing their cost per CP
2. Made it HARDER for players with fewer CP to catch up once they get above a certain point
3. Lowered the cost of CP early on, but not enough to get someone on a level playing field in a reasonable period of time

A better implementation would be:
1. If you're over cap, you earn CP for each 400,000xp (it should never be above this).
2. If you're below cap, you earn CP more quickly (lower cost) the further away from the cap you are.

Design criteria should be as follows:
-A new VR player, earning an average amount of XP per day (I'll assume 1,000,000 as that is doable in a single play session if you try), should be able to get within X% of the cap (I'll assume 30%) within X days (I'll assume 30 days, as a month of constant play seems reasonable).

A formula that will allow that to happen is as follows (using excel terminology):
XP Cost for next CP=MIN(400,000,400,000/(CAP/(NEXT CP^(NEXT CP/CAP))))

I'll give two examples of how this formula will work, one at 500 CP Cap, and one at 3600 CP Cap (any formula needs to work for both):

500 CP Cap Example: 30,000,000 XP (or 30 days of playing)=503 CP, so you hit the cap in 30 days

Illustrative cost of some of the CP is as follows:

CP1=800 XP
CP100=2,009XP
CP400=96,546XP
CP500=400,000XP


3,600 CP Cap Example: 30,000,000 XP (or 30 days of playing)=2,928 CP, so you're within 80% of the cap in 30 days

Illustrative cost of some of the CP is as follows:

CP1=111 XP
CP100=126XP
CP500=263XP
CP1000=757XP
CP2000=7,580XP
CP3000=87,773XP
CP3600=400,000XP

Yep, players can become somewhat effective compared to the cap within a few days, and competitive within a month of playing. That's the point of a catch-up mechanic. They still have to work at it, but we're not talking about it taking 4 years on an average person's play schedule before they'll be able to compete in PvP or get into raids.

Note: If the previous poster is correct that we'll be able to generate more XP in the same play time going forward, then, obviously, you'd need to change this formula.

However, given that they are doing away with veteran ranks, and Orsimar will effectively battle-level players, I assume that maximum XP gain per hour will remain constant going forward.

i wanted to clarify the bold if it was refering to my post:

the way >past systems< were reduced in "time spent" for new, and slower progressors, was to the increase of experienced gained. most, if not all, still required grinding, but the mobs rendered MORE experience geared specifically for leveling- so 1 level would equal to "x" amount of game time. with a constant experience requirement in the alternate advancement system that larger sum, ended up netting less grinding for equal to more results when considering the prior content. i am willing to bet it was more based on being "lazy-smart" where you don't have to worry about the alternate ability growth issue, as its solved in normal game play indirectly due to increase level caps.

example:

current max level mob = 1000 exp

new max level mob = 2000 exp

the new level cap indirectly reduces time spent in the alternate ability system- in this case it cut it in half.

so orsinium and IC is quite frankly just 1 DLC broken into two- which makes sense given their focus. no problem. with them being considered "1 DLC" they can also be considered as a marking point for CP need. similar to the idea that you have to be at least VR16 to do a VR16 raid. if the average is 100cps they should readjust gold and silver to render 100cps just from one- time quests. when the next DLC is launched and if it requires an additional 100 CP (200CP total) then they need to ensure the one-time quests in IC/orsinium render the needed 100 additional CP. mobs can have an increase in experience totals for those players willing to kill+quest to gain CPs, over time will gain at a faster pace due to the work portion of the kills; while keeping pace with the "expected" point through quests. it nets more reward for less time.

i will say it again though, there will be no catching up ever in this system. there will always be casuals, grinders, hardcore..... and then theres me who has a real ADHD style of playing. the solution should find itself in the middle of the pack, but not on one end of the spectrum or the other.

**note: this isn't taking into consideration, overall power of the character (not the player). this also should be put into consideration, as that too greatly modifies overall results for gaining experience, and thus CPs, in a system based on a constant experience requirement**

as it stands now, the more points you have, the more power your character has, and thus the more CPs you gain over time (work/time=production) which converts over time to (1/2work/time=production). with the new system, the more CPs you have, the fewer CPs you gain over time (work/time x 2=production). this nullifies the base instincts of reward over time, that keeps players engaged and interested. hence, a change should be made, though this one does the opposite of human nature, and thus. devalues and deincentives desirability of the system in general.

in order to produce a solid, catch-up and rewarding progression system, the account bound component of this system now must be removed. it does more harm than good, with most of the alternatives submitted. quite frankly, this should never have been allowed from the start.

ZOS_RyanRuzich

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback so far. We love reading your enthusiasm on this new system. Our goal is to make it as polished and awesome as possible before releasing to the live servers. The three main changes we’re looking to make are:

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

The formula would be adjusted in the following way to meet these goals:

• ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
• If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula and then multiplied by 1.5.
• For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 34000 XP is required.

Qyrk

Fantastic news Ryan!

Thank you for trying to take our feedback on board. I'm sure the change will be helpful for many.

Paulington

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback so far. We love reading your enthusiasm on this new system. Our goal is to make it as polished and awesome as possible before releasing to the live servers. The three main changes we’re looking to make are:

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

The formula would be adjusted in the following way to meet these goals:

• ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
• If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula and then multiplied by 1.5.
• For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 34000 XP is required.

Hi @ZOS_RyanRuzich.

This is a step in the right direction but I think it is a halfway-house to a good solution. Ultimately we shouldn't be having to earn more than 400k XP per champion point ever because if we do then you're making us work harder for Champion Points than others already did, why is this? There is no difference in the amount of extra stats they provide so we're working harder for no reason.

If you haven't already, please read my post on this issue that suggests an alternative way that means no-one works harder than people already have for the same Champion Point rank and it allows for the same objective, that is people not being able to be more powerful than a certain cap until ZOS increase it.

As it stands even with your new formula you are unfairly making some of us work harder than others for champion point gain and adding a complex part to the champion system that really isn't required, simpler really is better.

Cheers!

MisterJimothy

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback so far. We love reading your enthusiasm on this new system. Our goal is to make it as polished and awesome as possible before releasing to the live servers. The three main changes we’re looking to make are:

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

The formula would be adjusted in the following way to meet these goals:

• ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
• If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula and then multiplied by 1.5.
• For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 34000 XP is required.

I want to highlight two big things about this post.

1. You answered concerns to those more dedicated players, despite their small numbers. Well done!
2. You took away some of the "hold back" that this catch-up system was supposed to help with. Also well done.

On a larger note, this is a big deal to us long time players.

What just happened here, was dev and playerbase interaction and feedback where everyone talked to each other and had an overall good conversation about a long-standing issue. I don't give a crap about what could have been done differently. What matters, is that as a result of this kind of dev-player interaction, real change is being implemented based directly on that interaction.

ZOS,

Keep doing this! This is the kind of interaction we like. We know this can't be done for every decision; no one has that kind of time. But, this is positive, and I think many of us appreciate it. Keep it up.

Fellow Players,

Encourage this kind of interaction. ZOS has been slowly doing this more and more, and look what we got.

Zinaroth

Paulington wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback so far. We love reading your enthusiasm on this new system. Our goal is to make it as polished and awesome as possible before releasing to the live servers. The three main changes we’re looking to make are:

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

The formula would be adjusted in the following way to meet these goals:

• ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
• If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula and then multiplied by 1.5.
• For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 34000 XP is required.

Hi @ZOS_RyanRuzich.

This is a step in the right direction but I think it is a halfway-house to a good solution. Ultimately we shouldn't be having to earn more than 400k XP per champion point ever because if we do then you're making us work harder for Champion Points than others already did, why is this? There is no difference in the amount of extra stats they provide so we're working harder for no reason.

Cheers!

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

Pretty much this. If you insist on maintaining a hard cap I don't see the point of having CPs artificially cost more past that cap.
On the other hand you could lift the cap and then have them cost more.
One or the other, don't do both.
I tagged you and some other devs in a suggestion I made this weekend, would be nice if you could check it out, I spent quite some time on it:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/223595/suggestion-alternative-cp-advancement#latest

Thank you!

Heruthema

Why is there a penalty at all for those past the cap? If you are past the cap you can not use the points anyway until the next cap change. Why is ZOS insistent on penalizing those who choose to make the investment of time to make CP. There should be NO PENALTY after the cap.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

Paulington wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback so far. We love reading your enthusiasm on this new system. Our goal is to make it as polished and awesome as possible before releasing to the live servers. The three main changes we’re looking to make are:

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

The formula would be adjusted in the following way to meet these goals:

• ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
• If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula and then multiplied by 1.5.
• For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 34000 XP is required.

Hi @ZOS_RyanRuzich.

This is a step in the right direction but I think it is a halfway-house to a good solution. Ultimately we shouldn't be having to earn more than 400k XP per champion point ever because if we do then you're making us work harder for Champion Points than others already did, why is this? There is no difference in the amount of extra stats they provide so we're working harder for no reason.

If you haven't already, please read my post on this issue that suggests an alternative way that means no-one works harder than people already have for the same Champion Point rank and it allows for the same objective, that is people not being able to be more powerful than a certain cap until ZOS increase it.

As it stands even with your new formula you are unfairly making some of us work harder than others for champion point gain and adding a complex part to the champion system that really isn't required, simpler really is better.

Cheers!

i agree. these systems aren't geared for having people hit a concrete wall, typically just a player based wall based on the equation of (work/time=production). they are geared for smooth and consistent, REWARDING game-play experience; so changes are critical. the whole underlying point of my post, is that people that put in the time, net the reward, but not be hindered; the inverse for those at the bottom. this equation just turn CPs, into VRs, when people already complain about VRs.... which is stupid because CPs currently are more important. i can already see that the gear is going to be the new grind to replace CPs, and from the posts so far, that isn't going so swimmingly either.

the equation is gorgeous, its just too late. listen to what the players are saying, and entertain the notion that the new system won't work now, so you can prepare alternatives and find better means, to satisfy the players needs.

Ezareth

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback so far. We love reading your enthusiasm on this new system. Our goal is to make it as polished and awesome as possible before releasing to the live servers. The three main changes we’re looking to make are:

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

The formula would be adjusted in the following way to meet these goals:

• ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
• If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula and then multiplied by 1.5.
• For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 34000 XP is required.

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

Personally I like the old formula better. I don't really see the point of increasing the experience needed to gain a CP at all if you're only going to increase it at most by 11.4% while under the cap. The increase from 445 - 501 is so small that it may as well not even exist.

I think the less aggressive multiplier after the Cap will ensure that everyone at the Cap at the launch of this seasonal cap will continue to be at the cap by the time the next season is released. This means someone with 1000 CPs today will only need 1.28 Million per CP instead of 3.36 million.

People are still going to catch up to the heaviest grinders but the way this will work out now means that a far larger number of people are never going to "Earn" a CP again that they can actually spend when they earn. This is one of the most fun senses of "progression" in the game and I feel the formula should ensure that as many people as possible get to experience this from season to season instead of only getting to spend points once the Cap is raised. Otherwise the CP system starts to follow closely with the raising of the Vet levels. Sharp jumps in power when new Vet levels are released and then a flatline sense of progression thereafter.

I think a lot of the players who are arguing against the old formula really don't understand how it is going to affect the majority of the players over the course of time.

Zinaroth

Heruthema wrote: »

Why is there a penalty at all for those past the cap? If you are past the cap you can not use the points anyway until the next cap change. Why is ZOS insistent on penalizing those who choose to make the investment of time to make CP. There should be NO PENALTY after the cap.

Exactly this. And I am only at 230 CP so I am not even preaching my own case here.

Rayste

Zinaroth wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback so far. We love reading your enthusiasm on this new system. Our goal is to make it as polished and awesome as possible before releasing to the live servers. The three main changes we’re looking to make are:

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

The formula would be adjusted in the following way to meet these goals:

• ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
• If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula and then multiplied by 1.5.
• For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 34000 XP is required.

Hi @ZOS_RyanRuzich.

This is a step in the right direction but I think it is a halfway-house to a good solution. Ultimately we shouldn't be having to earn more than 400k XP per champion point ever because if we do then you're making us work harder for Champion Points than others already did, why is this? There is no difference in the amount of extra stats they provide so we're working harder for no reason.

Cheers!

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

Pretty much this. If you insist on maintaining a hard cap I don't see the point of having CPs artificially cost more past that cap.
On the other hand you could lift the cap and then have them cost more.
One or the other, don't do both.
I tagged you and some other devs in a suggestion I made this weekend, would be nice if you could check it out, I spent quite some time on it:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/223595/suggestion-alternative-cp-advancement#latest

Thank you!

Well said. @ZOS_RyanRuzich please take note. I see no reason to limit CP past the cap especially since some players are already passed the 1k mark. This system will punish those that haven't done as much grinding. The goal here is to be able to be at the cap for each update if you so choose to. This will make the nigh impossible for ones that didn't grind to extremely high numbers already.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

im going to play devils advocate to counter the equation:

if the first 120 are the most significant points, then divide that into silver and gold so they each render 60 CPs each from one-time quests.

gold = 60cp
silver =60cp
total = 120cp

with this in mind, using my wife and i as an example, my wife would have a total of 120CP pocketed; i would have 60cp pocketed. my wife is currently sitting around 70ish CP, so that means after completing silver and gold she would have a MINIMUM of 190ish points.i however, am sitting around 220ish points, there for once i complete gold, ill have a minimum of 280cps. without modifying current mechanics of the champion system to address the issue, addressing the net gains for play time, has put me near the 340, while putting my wife above the important 120. this is roughly based on a casual player's style of game play. if a player does more than just quest, they stand a chance to ensure they get more than just the expected.

if a new player comes, they would be expected to have a MINIMUM of 120cps by the time they complete silver and gold. this would plus/minus some, based on how they go about completing the 1-50 content. i would gotten more than the alloted 120 because i was VR5 before completing 1-50 content. however, my wife would have netted slightly above 120, since she was around VR2 on completing, 1-50 content. someone who slams through 1-50, would probably net the alloted 120cps from silver and gold, IF they complete silver and gold.

if ic/orsinium is geared for people 120CPs (finishing gold+silver) and the net expectation is that the goal is meet 160CPs just make the quests equate to 40CPs. this incentives continued progress, and to purchase the new DLC, or at least subscribe for the sake of progression

a diverse play-style will produce better results, as the experience gains increase, to cover the increase of level caps.

if you don't like people grinding, then ensure they quest to gain their expected CPs.

the comment i put in bold is why, ultimately, this new system is going to do more harm than good. its mathematics are correct, but not proper for the >total< environment. that environment is based hugely on diversity of game-play experience. my 4 hours will not be my wife's 4 hours, which won't be your 4 hours, and their 4 hours.

so i broke expected minimum gains down:

silver= 60cps
gold=60cps
crag=30cps
IC=20cps
Orsinium= 20cps
total= 190cps

or

silver= 60cps
gold=60cps
crag=30cps
IC=25cps
Orsinium= 25cps
total= 200cps

or for those without the DLC:
silver= 60cp
gold=60cp
crag=30cp
total= 150cp

those are the expected minimum gains if you do all the one-time quests ONLY, under my purposal. (not including enlightenment because that is to remain intact as is now, along with the rest of the system). this would produce an environment, that also reduces the workload for VRs, so it strikes two blows, with one swing of the fist...

this also produces an environment that better ables content to be balanced. the DLC after orsinium, can be geared around the 190/200CP minimum expectation. it should produce another "X" CPs that the next DLC will be based around. it also helps dictate when an update to the system, in the form of more passives and purchasable benefits are needed.

silky_soft

@ZOS_RyanRuzich if you're going to continue to penalize us you need to scale down high cp earner accordingly or remove that 1.5 multiplier. Otherwise you are encouraging those to farm as much as possible before cap.

Enodoc

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Just wondering if this updated formula is in for PTS 2.2.1, or if it's shortlisted for 2.2.2. Thanks!

ennuid

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.

Your new formula still gives 700 million experience to someone with 1000 champ points, and 4.1 billion experience to someone with 2000 champ points. You're still unwittingly making it harder for everyone else to catch up. If you want to avoid this, you should either:

1) Use the new experience curve to recalculate everyone's champion points based on their previously earned experience.

2) Keep the experience per champion point at 400k or below.

I personally prefer #1, as you could completely get rid of the hard cap with a steep enough experience curve. There is no "meaningful progress" if you can't spend points. Whether you mean to or not, a hard cap says "you're playing too much, please unsub for a few months".

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

ennuid wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.

Your new formula still gives 700 million experience to someone with 1000 champ points, and 4.1 billion experience to someone with 2000 champ points. You're still unwittingly making it harder for everyone else to catch up. If you want to avoid this, you should either:

1) Use the new experience curve to recalculate everyone's champion points based on their previously earned experience.

2) Keep the experience per champion point at 400k or below.

I personally prefer #1, as you could completely get rid of the hard cap with a steep enough experience curve. There is no "meaningful progress" if you can't spend points. Whether you mean to or not, a hard cap says "you're playing too much, please unsub for a few months".

this is exactly why my wife and i will not be continuing any amount of time in ESO, if this does go live. both your options effectively does the same thing.

and no... i decided my gold will go to my trade guild, and the rest of my items are going to my RL friends that play if they continue playing.

NewBlacksmurf

James-Wayne wrote: »

I've mapped out what is required so everyone can see more clearly of the XP that is required if your interested:

This is all we need. All the other attempts "confuse" the topic.

It's what the patch notes should display

ColtPython

I like the updated formula much better. Mostly because I will be at the hard cap from just playing often. However, I am still unclear as to why there needs to be any multiplier after the cap. This is for CP that we are not even allowed to use so why does it need to be slowed down?

In my experience, training dozens of new guildies they all get upset when they learn how the champion system works. "they should just get rid of it!" Once they get to 180 or so they change their tune entirely. "Its not so bad."

I like the original formula a little better cause I think they need to be caught up to about the 300 level. I guess 450 isn't that much more so I am ok with this.

The best thing that will come of this is HOPEFULLY we will no longer get posts on the forms complaining that they are losing to people with 1000+ CP. Rather than taking personal responsibility for not having any real experience. I would gladly take on a "1000+ CP grinder" as I don't believe they have as much real exp.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

ColtPython wrote: »

I like the updated formula much better. Mostly because I will be at the hard cap from just playing often. However, I am still unclear as to why there needs to be any multiplier after the cap. This is for CP that we are not even allowed to use so why does it need to be slowed down?

In my experience, training dozens of new guildies they all get upset when they learn how the champion system works. "they should just get rid of it!" Once they get to 180 or so they change their tune entirely. "Its not so bad."

I like the original formula a little better cause I think they need to be caught up to about the 300 level. I guess 450 isn't that much more so I am ok with this.

The best thing that will come of this is HOPEFULLY we will no longer get posts on the forms complaining that they are losing to people with 1000+ CP. Rather than taking personal responsibility for not having any real experience. I would gladly take on a "1000+ CP grinder" as I don't believe they have as much real exp.

no, it will all be converted to "player has OP gear" threads. they converted the CP grind into the gear grind-your choice is RNG or rare hard to find materials unless you grind for drops. it helps to nullify the CP system, but now people have to spend as much time getting gear. the current CP system does the opposite which is why i am against this formula/change. the gear shift, may be vastly less relevant with the current champion system.... not enough mitigations = champion points; not enough DPS = champion points. the shift will be: not enough mitigations = grind gear; not enough DPS= grind gear. grinding for gear now, means you end up grinding CPs; what it will end up is while you are grinding gear, you are grinding gear.... that advantage will only last 3 months though so hurry up! because once VR17-18 comes out, you need to replace that gear. CPs just follow you like a buddy.... if you check out my post regarding "expected minimum gains" above, you will find that the experience netted through that method would improve perception of VRs which many complain about now. so, you get VR issues solved, you get the CP issue resolved, and you have to worry less about the "right" gear and alleviate the gear grind.

players that didn't get it before, won't get it now, and the ones on the top have to adapt down to fulfill the lower rungs of the ladder, that just need an equalizer that actually equalizes.