Champion System Catch-up Mechanic

WyndStryke

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

...

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

...

Nice one, this new version looks a lot better. Thanks ZOS.

Elijah_Crow

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback so far. We love reading your enthusiasm on this new system. Our goal is to make it as polished and awesome as possible before releasing to the live servers. The three main changes we’re looking to make are:

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

The formula would be adjusted in the following way to meet these goals:

• ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
• If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula and then multiplied by 1.5.
• For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 34000 XP is required.

Talked this over with most of my guild tonight. Everyone is very pleased, even our higher CP players. Good compromise. I just think there are going to be a few very vocal voices who will never be happy.

This is a good meeting point. Well done.

Kammakazi

At least it isn't tripled if you're over the 501 cap...

Hiero_Glyph

ennuid wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.

Your new formula still gives 700 million experience to someone with 1000 champ points, and 4.1 billion experience to someone with 2000 champ points. You're still unwittingly making it harder for everyone else to catch up. If you want to avoid this, you should either:

1) Use the new experience curve to recalculate everyone's champion points based on their previously earned experience.

2) Keep the experience per champion point at 400k or below.

I personally prefer #1, as you could completely get rid of the hard cap with a steep enough experience curve. There is no "meaningful progress" if you can't spend points. Whether you mean to or not, a hard cap says "you're playing too much, please unsub for a few months".

I posted this same thing right when the first formula was rleeased and ZOS keeps pretending that they are not gifting some players hundreds of million or even billions of experience. The kicker here is that if ZOS rescales everyone, then there is no harm in changing how the system works regardless of what values the end up using since everyone will be on the same scale. It would be 100% fair for everyone involved.

Furtheremore, every single point of CP experience earned will be granted to every player so there is no cheating a player out of anything. If they had ESO+, used exp pots, a Ring of Mara, exploited grind spots, etc, they will still get every single point of CP experience that was earned. What will change is the amount of CP unlocked by this experience but as it would affect everyone according to the new system it would be absolutely balanced for everyone.

k2blader

Paulington wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback so far. We love reading your enthusiasm on this new system. Our goal is to make it as polished and awesome as possible before releasing to the live servers. The three main changes we’re looking to make are:

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

The formula would be adjusted in the following way to meet these goals:

• ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
• If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula and then multiplied by 1.5.
• For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 34000 XP is required.

Hi @ZOS_RyanRuzich.

This is a step in the right direction but I think it is a halfway-house to a good solution. Ultimately we shouldn't be having to earn more than 400k XP per champion point ever because if we do then you're making us work harder for Champion Points than others already did, why is this? There is no difference in the amount of extra stats they provide so we're working harder for no reason.

Only quoted part of your post but could Zeni answer this please? Is having to earn more than 400k XP intended? If so, why?

Zinaroth

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I just think there are going to be a few very vocal voices who will never be happy.

What an asinine comment. So just because your guild is happy with the current iteration, the concerns raised by the rest of the community on the forum is invalid?

I don't know a single person in Hodor that has expressed that they think this is a good solution, and the complaints on forums are basically all the same ones; don't introduce XP penalty past the cap if there is going to be one.

So what did ZOS do? Chose a 1.5 multiplier instead of a 3. Why? Noone knows it wasn't explained. It's like they don't want to comprimise with their design choises no matter what the community says... And it's been like this since day one. I think everyone is in their right mind to give negative feedback, and I have never seen a more constructive community discussion going on than this one right here.

So please, you might not agree, but don't belittle the opinions of others.

Enodoc

ColtPython wrote: »

I like the updated formula much better. Mostly because I will be at the hard cap from just playing often. However, I am still unclear as to why there needs to be any multiplier after the cap. This is for CP that we are not even allowed to use so why does it need to be slowed down?

Presumably the multiplier is so people are less likely to be over the next cap when the cap is raised, which would make them once again even harder to catch up to. The multiplier is needed so that once the cap is raised, players are closer together when working toward the next cap.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

ennuid wrote: »

Your new formula still gives 700 million experience to someone with 1000 champ points, and 4.1 billion experience to someone with 2000 champ points. You're still unwittingly making it harder for everyone else to catch up. If you want to avoid this, you should either:

1) Use the new experience curve to recalculate everyone's champion points based on their previously earned experience.

2) Keep the experience per champion point at 400k or below.

I personally prefer #1, as you could completely get rid of the hard cap with a steep enough experience curve. There is no "meaningful progress" if you can't spend points. Whether you mean to or not, a hard cap says "you're playing too much, please unsub for a few months".

I posted this same thing right when the first formula was rleeased and ZOS keeps pretending that they are not gifting some players hundreds of million or even billions of experience. The kicker here is that if ZOS rescales everyone, then there is no harm in changing how the system works regardless of what values the end up using since everyone will be on the same scale. It would be 100% fair for everyone involved.

Furtheremore, every single point of CP experience earned will be granted to every player so there is no cheating a player out of anything. If they had ESO+, used exp pots, a Ring of Mara, exploited grind spots, etc, they will still get every single point of CP experience that was earned. What will change is the amount of CP unlocked by this experience but as it would affect everyone according to the new system it would be absolutely balanced for everyone.

I think that's unnecessary. If they did that, then when the cap next goes up, these players would be at a disadvantage, as they should have more CPs based on their XP. Unless you think they should recalculate everyone's points every time they change the cap? In which case, the catch-up system is useless.

k2blader wrote: »

Only quoted part of your post but could Zeni answer this please? Is having to earn more than 400k XP intended? If so, why?

I'm not ZOS, but I'm sure it's intended. They're calling that threshold where it goes over 400k the "soft cap", and I believe it exists so that people who are over it don't pull away so fast from those below it, allowing those that are below to catch up. If this didn't happen, there would be a point at which players got no closer together in CPs, and thus were unable to "catch up".

Rust_in_Peace

I really like the hard cap but I don't think there should be an xp ramp up before you hit the cap. Just make it 400k xp all the way to 500 and then ramp it up.

Honestly, I want to play my alts that aren't VR yet and I don't want to feel like I'm "missing out" on CP xp anymore when I do it. I understand some people like the "reward" of having a goal on their main character but this cap is such a weight off the shoulders of people who just want fair and competitive gameplay. Now I can do that and still play the game at an easy pace when I want to take a bit of a break.

Hiero_Glyph

Enodoc wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

ennuid wrote: »

Your new formula still gives 700 million experience to someone with 1000 champ points, and 4.1 billion experience to someone with 2000 champ points. You're still unwittingly making it harder for everyone else to catch up. If you want to avoid this, you should either:

1) Use the new experience curve to recalculate everyone's champion points based on their previously earned experience.

2) Keep the experience per champion point at 400k or below.

I personally prefer #1, as you could completely get rid of the hard cap with a steep enough experience curve. There is no "meaningful progress" if you can't spend points. Whether you mean to or not, a hard cap says "you're playing too much, please unsub for a few months".

I posted this same thing right when the first formula was rleeased and ZOS keeps pretending that they are not gifting some players hundreds of million or even billions of experience. The kicker here is that if ZOS rescales everyone, then there is no harm in changing how the system works regardless of what values the end up using since everyone will be on the same scale. It would be 100% fair for everyone involved.

Furtheremore, every single point of CP experience earned will be granted to every player so there is no cheating a player out of anything. If they had ESO+, used exp pots, a Ring of Mara, exploited grind spots, etc, they will still get every single point of CP experience that was earned. What will change is the amount of CP unlocked by this experience but as it would affect everyone according to the new system it would be absolutely balanced for everyone.

I think that's unnecessary. If they did that, then when the cap next goes up, these players would be at a disadvantage, as they should have more CPs based on their XP. Unless you think they should recalculate everyone's points every time they change the cap? In which case, the catch-up system is useless.

You run the math and tell me how players should be given free experience numbering in the billions just because they exploited a system first. It would be like having an experience potion grant +500% experience for 8 months instead of +10% for 1 hour. It's not even close to being balanced.

EDIT: Once the cap is finally increased, only the players without any CP would be affected from this point forward. What would happen is that the cap would increase, and the experience required would be reduced for everyone. This new forumla would not increase the cost per point of CP anywhere on the curve when the CP cap increases. Seriously, test it, move the cap to 750 and test anyy given CP value, it is always reduced. As such, once rescaled only new players would gain an advantage from any future CP cap increases in the form of a catch-up mechanic.

Ashtaris

ZOS, you are giving us more reasons to unsubscribe. I don't understand the XP penalty after the cap, that just doesn't make any sense. As a player, I need some sense of progression, that if I spend money with my subscription and playing the game, that I'm rewarded somehow by doing so. With the CP penalty after the cap, you are actually penalizing anyone who is a dedicated player. Add this to the VR16 mat grind, crappy dungeon rewards, and everything else you have done to make the game unenjoyable, then I just don't see how you can justify anyone's subscription. And BTW, where are the ESO Plus crafting bags you promissed us sometime ago?

ennuid

Enodoc wrote: »

I think that's unnecessary. If they did that, then when the cap next goes up, these players would be at a disadvantage, as they should have more CPs based on their XP. Unless you think they should recalculate everyone's points every time they change the cap? In which case, the catch-up system is useless.

Recalculating xp takes champ points away from anyone above some threshold (approximately the cap) and gives champ points to everyone below it. If you have 93 champ points in the old system, you'll have 262 in the new. And because of the catch-up system, you'll earn future champ points faster.

Frankly, I wouldn't have a cap at all, just a linear ramp in experience to level and everyone's old experience applied to the new curve. Because every time you adjust the cap, we'll be revisiting the same arguments, and customers will be annoyed for no reason. Just pull the band-aid off once, don't do it a little at a time.

If that's not enough (because all of the formulas suggested so far are linear, which can only provide a 2x catch-up regardless of parameters chosen), then try some of the other great alternatives suggested on this very forum. Like getting rid of champion points in non-vet PvP and half of the vet campaigns. Or changing enlightenment from being based on time to being based on champion level (16x under 100 champ points, 4x under 500 or whatever). Or adding more diminishing returns to the effects of champion points (e.g. 10 points of elemental expert get you to 12.5% damage, 100 points get you to 25%, and don't forget to do the same thing for the stat bonuses).

There are plenty of ideas that actually accomplish the stated goals of the catch-up system without a introducing a hard cap.

Helba

Quoted what I put in another thread about CP. This is how I think the CP should be fixed. There are people that think grinding mobs for hours is 'hard work' or challenging, my catch up system idea would reward players that are actually skilled and out-perform players with more CP. It would make leaderboards truly competitive and very rewarding.

Helba wrote: »

I honestly don't think ZOS ever intend on players ever finishing the CP grind. Just look at the new xp system in place with orsinium. It's actually meant to slow down player progression overall, even if we were to reach 3600 they would probably increase it to 10,800 and update the constellation tree passives. Let's just get this out of the way first.

I get it ZOS, you want players to keep playing the game, ok. The real root of what I feel is the problem is how we earn CP and the content that's the most rewarding for it. I agree that CP caps are needed in some way, shape or form to keep leaderboards and pvp actually competitive.

There should be a CP capped mode for Trials, VDSA and a Cyrodiil campaign (with less or no rewards or ap gain) instead of capping everything all together, make it 501 or w/e. Something low enough to even out the playing field at least a little bit instead of taking away the CP some players have spent months worth of time grinding out.

The catch up mechanic should be in the form of shifting where the most XP is gained and tuning it to content that (I presume) the majority of V1+ players enjoy. We should get much more XP from doing the daily pledge, Trials, the new solo arena (the most) and especially PVP. The challenging, engaging, fun content should give us the best experience, adjust the XP to what part of the game you want players to enjoy and what really shines in ESO.

I don't want to tell my friends that grinding in circles in IC or leveling new characters from scratch to redo the same hundred quests I've done done X number of times before is how ZOS wants us to play the game, that endgame doesn't compare to what other games have to offer.

Now for the catchup mechanic. For PVP if I defeat a player with far more CP than me I should get an XP BONUS from killing that player and get much much more XP, kind of like the way AP gain works with alliance rank differences. For PVE something should be done with the leaderboards such as an XP BONUS from player(s) with a lower average CP that complete a trial/arena with a comparable or better score in the non-CP cap mode. A system like this rewards the new players who out perform those with substantial stat advantage (resources, damage, mitigation) you name it and gives players that actually put in real hard work to defeat players with an advantage a way to catch up and in the CP cap mode a way to play at an even-playing field.

I and many others wouldn't have a problem with CP if it was gained at a faster rate doing enjoyable, challenging, dynamic, and engaging, endgame content and events compared to mind-numbing grinding. These of course are just some of my thoughts on how to fix CP, there's a lot that I would like to see with the direction of content design as well but that's a thread for another time. I have 385 CP with the majority of it from PVP. I have the time to CP grind but I refuse to.

ColtPython

Enodoc wrote: »

ColtPython wrote: »

I like the updated formula much better. Mostly because I will be at the hard cap from just playing often. However, I am still unclear as to why there needs to be any multiplier after the cap. This is for CP that we are not even allowed to use so why does it need to be slowed down?

Presumably the multiplier is so people are less likely to be over the next cap when the cap is raised, which would make them once again even harder to catch up to. The multiplier is needed so that once the cap is raised, players are closer together when working toward the next cap.

I get this, but why would it matter if players are over the next cap? There is a cap. The new players are ramped up to 450ish. If the next cap is 701 (for example), the difference between 450-501 and 701 is not big. Not like 0-250. So to your point, players will be "closer" together in power even if the number is not the same. There is no need for the multiplier.

Hiero_Glyph

ennuid wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I think that's unnecessary. If they did that, then when the cap next goes up, these players would be at a disadvantage, as they should have more CPs based on their XP. Unless you think they should recalculate everyone's points every time they change the cap? In which case, the catch-up system is useless.

Recalculating xp takes champ points away from anyone above some threshold (approximately the cap) and gives champ points to everyone below it. If you have 93 champ points in the old system, you'll have 262 in the new. And because of the catch-up system, you'll earn future champ points faster.

Frankly, I wouldn't have a cap at all, just a linear ramp in experience to level and everyone's old experience applied to the new curve. Because every time you adjust the cap, we'll be revisiting the same argument , and customers will be annoyed for no reason. Just pull the band-aid off once, don't do it a little at a time.

If that's not enough (because all of the formulas suggested so far are linear, which can only provide a 2x catch-up regardless of parameters chosen), then try some of the other great alternatives suggested on this very forum. Like getting rid of champion points in non-vet PvP and half of the vet campaigns. Or changing enlightenment from being based on time to being based on champion level (16x under 100 champ points, 4x under 500 or whatever). Or adding more diminishing returns to the effects of champion points (e.g. 10 points of elemental expert get you to 12.5% damage, 100 points get you to 25%, and don't forget to do the same thing for the stat bonuses).

There are plenty of ideas that actually accomplish the stated goals of the catch-up system without a introducing a hard cap.

I can't agree more with the bolded statement! ZOS needs to admit they messed up with CP and this solution will solve it once and for all. Just rescale everyone once and be done with it. It's one thing to punish certain players while rewarding others, but something entirely different if it affects everyone equally. Some players may benefit while others are hurt but in the end the result is 100% fair across the board and the players with high CP totals will still have higher CP totals, just as those with lower amounts will still be at the bottom. Those players at the bottom will just catchup faster gain their initial CP faster (they won't ever catch the players ahead of them if the gain rates remain constant). Isn't that the entire point of changing the current CP system?


@ColtPython

I agree that a multiplier above the cap isn't needed as the cap fulfills that role on its own. Let's not repeat the mistakes of v16 crafting by making it cost (10x) more just because ZOS needed an artificial grind to extend the life of the content. If that means changing the math slightly to extend the curve then just do it but don't add artificial multipliers to try and extend what is already a very, very long grind for most players.

Gelassenheit

If nothing else, please scale every player using the total amount of XP they have already rightfully earned.

For example,

I have 421 CP. This equates to 168,400,000 total champion XP. This total amount of XP would place me at 600 CP on the most recently proposed system. If I were to be placed at 421 CP in the new system, I would experience an effective 80.9 million XP loss. Players with 444 CP will experience the largest effective loss, at 81.14 million XP.

If a player currently has 1000 CP were to be placed at 1000 CP in the new currently proposed system, they would experience an effective 46.2 million XP gift -- or a 209.2 million XP gift, if this 1.5 x multiplier were to be taken into account.

With the currently proposed formula, players with less than 703 CP experience an effective loss in XP if we take into account the 1.5x multiplier. However, if we ignore this multiplier, then players with less than 888 CP experience an effective loss of XP.

The work that we have already done should not be undermined, and those players with much higher than average CP should not artificially be pushed further ahead of others, while they are simultaneously being pushed even further behind.

I encourage more iterations of the formula before its implementation into live. To actually be a catch-up mechanic, players whom are lower in CP should not experience an effective loss of XP, while those already much further ahead should not experience an effective gain of XP. This only serves to segregate, and encourage a CP disparity even more.

ZOS_RyanRuzich

Enodoc wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Just wondering if this updated formula is in for PTS 2.2.1, or if it's shortlisted for 2.2.2. Thanks!

Not this PTS, but possibly next PTS. Subject to the Will of Sheogorath of course.

Hiero_Glyph

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Just wondering if this updated formula is in for PTS 2.2.1, or if it's shortlisted for 2.2.2. Thanks!

Not this PTS, but possibly next PTS. Subject to the Will of Sheogorath of course.

Are you going to rescale players according to the new experience curve or will the players well above cap be gifted billions of CP experience?

xaraan

Paulington wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback so far. We love reading your enthusiasm on this new system. Our goal is to make it as polished and awesome as possible before releasing to the live servers. The three main changes we’re looking to make are:

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

The formula would be adjusted in the following way to meet these goals:

• ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
• If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula and then multiplied by 1.5.
• For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 34000 XP is required.

Hi @ZOS_RyanRuzich.

This is a step in the right direction but I think it is a halfway-house to a good solution. Ultimately we shouldn't be having to earn more than 400k XP per champion point ever because if we do then you're making us work harder for Champion Points than others already did, why is this? There is no difference in the amount of extra stats they provide so we're working harder for no reason.

If you haven't already, please read my post on this issue that suggests an alternative way that means no-one works harder than people already have for the same Champion Point rank and it allows for the same objective, that is people not being able to be more powerful than a certain cap until ZOS increase it.

As it stands even with your new formula you are unfairly making some of us work harder than others for champion point gain and adding a complex part to the champion system that really isn't required, simpler really is better.

Cheers!

Although I do agree with your point about making others work harder for what others already achieved, I do think it's 'funny' that so many others are fine with the opposite - making it easier for others to achieve what some already worked for. Either way, one group of people are getting something easier than the other.

Elijah_Crow

Zinaroth wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I just think there are going to be a few very vocal voices who will never be happy.

What an asinine comment. So just because your guild is happy with the current iteration, the concerns raised by the rest of the community on the forum is invalid?

I don't know a single person in Hodor that has expressed that they think this is a good solution, and the complaints on forums are basically all the same ones; don't introduce XP penalty past the cap if there is going to be one.

So what did ZOS do? Chose a 1.5 multiplier instead of a 3. Why? Noone knows it wasn't explained. It's like they don't want to comprimise with their design choises no matter what the community says... And it's been like this since day one. I think everyone is in their right mind to give negative feedback, and I have never seen a more constructive community discussion going on than this one right here.

So please, you might not agree, but don't belittle the opinions of others.

My comment isn't asinine at all. It's very true. Period. End of story.

Reining in the champion point system is about bringing a balance between progression and power creep. I personally don't care that you or your guild wants to continue to overpower content as designed when it's not good for the health of the game. That's why limits need to be set. I'm more concerned about the long term health of the game and less about personal power.

That's clearly where we differ.

Your comments about ZOS not wanting to compromise (yes, I at least can spell it) are asinine. They have listened to feedback and compromised (in my opinion) almost too much. You clearly know little of the development history if you can't acknowledge that ZOS responds well to community feedback.

Furor_

As part of the catch-up mechanic you could also remove the 12 day CP cap

Ezareth

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Just wondering if this updated formula is in for PTS 2.2.1, or if it's shortlisted for 2.2.2. Thanks!

Not this PTS, but possibly next PTS. Subject to the Will of Sheogorath of course.

Are you going to rescale players according to the new experience curve or will the players well above cap be gifted billions of CP experience?

Except you left time out of the equation, and their "Gift" actually ends up becoming a large tax on a long enough timeline.

DaveMoeDee

AlnilamE wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this is straight up horrible, horrible

i love eso and i love pvp but,

there is 3 things ruining pvp for me right now:

1) these champion points
i will NEVER be able to catch up to people with those 501 CP, NEVER!
fact is i only have 278 champion points, and right now that means i pretty much get eaten alive by those with 350 or more champion points and most people have well over 500 and even 1000 champion points. ive played every day since beta and launch and i know for a fact i have played fairly and not grinded and grinded because i hate grinding!
yet those who grind thier brains out are allowed to be more powerfull then the rest of us? its not only unfair its down right mean of the developers to allow people to be so much more over powered like that.
why in heck are you letting people go way out in strength above others?
really terrible!

Sorry, but if you have 278 CP and are being "eaten alive" by people with 350, you may be doing something wrong. If you had say, 50, that would be a different story, but at 270+ you can put 30CP into each constellation and essentially get any of the 30-point passives you want.

Maybe you need to re-evaluate your build?

What other possible reason could there be for dying in PvP? Oh yeah, exploits.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this is straight up horrible, horrible

i love eso and i love pvp but,

there is 3 things ruining pvp for me right now:

1) these champion points
i will NEVER be able to catch up to people with those 501 CP, NEVER!
fact is i only have 278 champion points, and right now that means i pretty much get eaten alive by those with 350 or more champion points and most people have well over 500 and even 1000 champion points. ive played every day since beta and launch and i know for a fact i have played fairly and not grinded and grinded because i hate grinding!
yet those who grind thier brains out are allowed to be more powerfull then the rest of us? its not only unfair its down right mean of the developers to allow people to be so much more over powered like that.
why in heck are you letting people go way out in strength above others?
really terrible!

Sorry, but if you have 278 CP and are being "eaten alive" by people with 350, you may be doing something wrong. If you had say, 50, that would be a different story, but at 270+ you can put 30CP into each constellation and essentially get any of the 30-point passives you want.

Maybe you need to re-evaluate your build?

What other possible reason could there be for dying in PvP? Oh yeah, exploits.

sheer incompetence..... i am not PVPing right now because the ones in cryodiil, think they can out fight an opponent with an extreme position of advantage. they are still picking their brains on how to kill them. the answer is you don't, you have to take their advantage away- go somewhere else and let them get bored, or go flip resources so more can't join them and draw them away from their current position.... its called strategy. while you are at it, you can find your own position of advantage and turn the tables on them.

Hiero_Glyph

Ezareth wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Just wondering if this updated formula is in for PTS 2.2.1, or if it's shortlisted for 2.2.2. Thanks!

Not this PTS, but possibly next PTS. Subject to the Will of Sheogorath of course.

Are you going to rescale players according to the new experience curve or will the players well above cap be gifted billions of CP experience?

Except you left time out of the equation, and their "Gift" actually ends up becoming a large tax on a long enough timeline.

First, let me state that I am completely against any experience multiplier for being above cap. It's an artificial mechanic to increase an already tedious grind. That being said if a player has 800 million CP exp they will unlock X CP. Why should another player, upon reaching 800 million CP exp get any less than X CP?

Furthermore, if a player with high CP is rescaled they get all the benefits of the reduced CP cost lower on the curve so their first 200 million CP exp unlocks a whole lot of CP compared to the current system. What happens is that their CP exp above the cap is reduced so instead of gaining CP on a linear scale, they will just match the curve.

Comparatively a player with a low amount of CP will also benefit initially as they will unlock more CP than they have currently. What changes is that they will now have to follow the CP exp curve and their gains will begin to slow down just as the high CP player has done. In essence, both player get all of the benefit from the early curve, but since only the high CP player has reached the higher portion of the curve they suffer through it first. Keep in mind that the lower CP player may never get to that point but that does not mean that they would be excluded from the same curve.

If the curve is changed at a later date, that also benefits the higher CP player as they would unlock more of their earned CP whereas the lower CP player would still have to earn it at the adjusted rate. Let's not forget that the adjusted CP rate encourages players with less CP catching up to a fair median value, but it does not promote them ever catching players with a large amount of CP. Run the numbers if you doubt me and prove how a player with 600+ CP will somehow be caught by a players with 300 CP over time. The math simply does not support such a catchup mechanic if all players are scaled according to the new CP exp system.

Lokov

Better if u don't touch CP system =\

Ezareth

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Just wondering if this updated formula is in for PTS 2.2.1, or if it's shortlisted for 2.2.2. Thanks!

Not this PTS, but possibly next PTS. Subject to the Will of Sheogorath of course.

Are you going to rescale players according to the new experience curve or will the players well above cap be gifted billions of CP experience?

Except you left time out of the equation, and their "Gift" actually ends up becoming a large tax on a long enough timeline.

First, let me state that I am completely against any experience multiplier for being above cap. It's an artificial mechanic to increase an already tedious grind. That being said if a player has 800 million CP exp they will unlock X CP. Why should another player, upon reaching 800 million CP exp get any less than X CP?

Furthermore, if a player with high CP is rescaled they get all the benefits of the reduced CP cost lower on the curve so their first 200 million CP exp unlocks a whole lot of CP compared to the current system. What happens is that their CP exp above the cap is reduced so instead of gaining CP on a linear scale, they will just match the curve.

Comparatively a player with a low amount of CP will also benefit initially as they will unlock more CP than they have currently. What changes is that they will now have to follow the CP exp curve and their gains will begin to slow down just as the high CP player has done. In essence, both player get all of the benefit from the early curve, but since only the high CP player has reached the higher portion of the curve they suffer through it first. Keep in mind that the lower CP player may never get to that point but that does not mean that they would be excluded from the same curve.

If the curve is changed at a later date, that also benefits the higher CP player as they would unlock more of their earned CP whereas the lower CP player would still have to earn it at the adjusted rate. Let's not forget that the adjusted CP rate encourages players with less CP catching up to a fair median value, but it does not promote them ever catching players with a large amount of CP. Run the numbers if you doubt me and prove how a player with 600+ CP will somehow be caught by a players with 300 CP over time. The math simply does not support such a catchup mechanic if all players are scaled according to the new CP exp system.

As I said, you're not taking time into the equation.

I'm going to go through this because no one is really applying a realistic scenario to this solution. They're calculating everything under a worst case scenario as if everyone earning CPs is already capped or over the "soft cap". There reality of the situation is, if the average is ~94 CPs then the overwhelming majority of players, even with the catchup mechanic will *never* reach the softcap. Therefore *every* CP the vast majority of players earn will actually cost them far less experience than it cost the players who have hundreds and thousands of CPs now.

Secondly, if you dont have a "slow down" mechanic then players who currently exceed the CP cap will never experience a moment below the seasonal cap. They will continue to jump to cap instantly the moment the cap is raised and this isn't a good thing. An increasing "slow down" mechanic beginning at the softcap and increasing rapidly beyond the hard cap is the only way to keep as many players as possible from being at the seasonal cap the moment new content and seasonal caps are raised. There will still be a few players who continue to do this, yet it deincentivizes grinding beyond the cap enough that it becomes not worth the effort. With respect to balance, this is the best solution possible.

Additionally, this whole idea of "Rescaling" players is not something I support. You can't promise players one thing and then take it away from them. The cap is bad enough, but at least the players get to keep their champion points and if they desire they no longer need to be concerned with earning them like the other players below the cap.

The "Catch-up mechanic" wasn't designed to make player with 300 CPs catch up to players with 600 CPs. It was designed to make it easy for a player who had he started at the same time as the 600 CP player would be at 600 CPs with that player the opportunity to start at 0 CPs and catch up to and be competitive with that player.

Even so, the math easily supports a player with 300 CPs catching up to a player with 600 CPs *provided they both earn the exact same experience from that point forward and that is exactly how it should work*. With the less agressive slow-down penalty this will take longer than with the old formula but it will still happen because of that 1.5 multiplicative penalty on top of the normal "soft cap" penalty. You and most other people are only considering the penalty the player who is "behind" is currently facing above the soft cap but not considering the fact that the player already above the cap is facing not only the soft cap penalty but a 1.5x penalty on top of that for every CP he earns. The end result is that each season his lead over all other players earning an equal amount of experience will shrink season to season until it becomes negligible.

Atarax

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback so far. We love reading your enthusiasm on this new system. Our goal is to make it as polished and awesome as possible before releasing to the live servers. The three main changes we’re looking to make are:

• Reducing the speed at which XP per point accelerates. Our data shows there is a good number of people in the 300 champion point range and we didn’t want them to feel like they had to grind all the way to 501 before the system releases. This now means players are gaining champion points faster than the old value up until their 445th point.
• Slightly increasing base XP. This helps normalize the curve a bit so players are spending a little more time in the beginning of the curve and less time at the end of the curve.
• Reducing the XP penalty for players past cap. We want dedicated players to still be able to make meaningful progress.

The formula would be adjusted in the following way to meet these goals:

• ((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.995)) + 0.085) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
• If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula and then multiplied by 1.5.
• For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 34000 XP is required.

Hi Ryan,

While this is a step in the right direction, you're sticking to the wrong formula. Please use this one (as I proposed in my prior feedback) instead (using excel terminology):

XP Cost for next CP=MIN(400000,400000/(CAP/(NEXT CP^(NEXT CP/CAP))))

To illustrate.

Example 1: 500 cap, 0 CP earned, next CP is the 1st
XP Cost for next CP=MIN(400000,400000/(500/(1^(1/500))))=800 xp

Example 2: 500 cap, 498 CP earned, next CP is the 499th
XP Cost for next CP=MIN(400000,400000/(500/(499^(499/500))))=394,270.54

Anything above that costs 400,000xp

Example 3: 3,600 cap, 0 CP earned, next CP is the 1st
XP Cost for next CP=MIN(400000,400000/(3600/(1^(1/3600))))=111xp

Example 4: 3,600 cap, 3598 CP earned, next CP is the 3599th
XP Cost for next CP=MIN(400000,400000/(3600/(3599^(3599/3600))))=398,980xp

This will always keep players able to get within 30% of the cap within 30 play sessions earning 1 million xp per session, regardless of where you shift the cap (see previous post for details). The reason why the catch up mechanism was requested, and the concern that needs to be addressed, is that new players wouldn't be able to catch long-term players and compete with them in any reasonable amount of time. Also, I agree with other posters who have lots of CP (even though I'm around 120 or so), CP should never cost more than 400k exp.

Your formula doesn't solve either problem at a 3600 cap, or even really at a 500 cap, mine does.

Hiero_Glyph

Ezareth wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Just wondering if this updated formula is in for PTS 2.2.1, or if it's shortlisted for 2.2.2. Thanks!

Not this PTS, but possibly next PTS. Subject to the Will of Sheogorath of course.

Are you going to rescale players according to the new experience curve or will the players well above cap be gifted billions of CP experience?

Except you left time out of the equation, and their "Gift" actually ends up becoming a large tax on a long enough timeline.

First, let me state that I am completely against any experience multiplier for being above cap. It's an artificial mechanic to increase an already tedious grind. That being said if a player has 800 million CP exp they will unlock X CP. Why should another player, upon reaching 800 million CP exp get any less than X CP?

Furthermore, if a player with high CP is rescaled they get all the benefits of the reduced CP cost lower on the curve so their first 200 million CP exp unlocks a whole lot of CP compared to the current system. What happens is that their CP exp above the cap is reduced so instead of gaining CP on a linear scale, they will just match the curve.

Comparatively a player with a low amount of CP will also benefit initially as they will unlock more CP than they have currently. What changes is that they will now have to follow the CP exp curve and their gains will begin to slow down just as the high CP player has done. In essence, both player get all of the benefit from the early curve, but since only the high CP player has reached the higher portion of the curve they suffer through it first. Keep in mind that the lower CP player may never get to that point but that does not mean that they would be excluded from the same curve.

If the curve is changed at a later date, that also benefits the higher CP player as they would unlock more of their earned CP whereas the lower CP player would still have to earn it at the adjusted rate. Let's not forget that the adjusted CP rate encourages players with less CP catching up to a fair median value, but it does not promote them ever catching players with a large amount of CP. Run the numbers if you doubt me and prove how a player with 600+ CP will somehow be caught by a players with 300 CP over time. The math simply does not support such a catchup mechanic if all players are scaled according to the new CP exp system.

As I said, you're not taking time into the equation.

I'm going to go through this because no one is really applying a realistic scenario to this solution. They're calculating everything under a worst case scenario as if everyone earning CPs is already capped or over the "soft cap". There reality of the situation is, if the average is ~94 CPs then the overwhelming majority of players, even with the catchup mechanic will *never* reach the softcap. Therefore *every* CP the vast majority of players earn will actually cost them far less experience than it cost the players who have hundreds and thousands of CPs now.

Secondly, if you dont have a "slow down" mechanic then players who currently exceed the CP cap will never experience a moment below the seasonal cap. They will continue to jump to cap instantly the moment the cap is raised and this isn't a good thing. An increasing "slow down" mechanic beginning at the softcap and increasing rapidly beyond the hard cap is the only way to keep as many players as possible from being at the seasonal cap the moment new content and seasonal caps are raised. There will still be a few players who continue to do this, yet it deincentivizes grinding beyond the cap enough that it becomes not worth the effort. With respect to balance, this is the best solution possible.

Additionally, this whole idea of "Rescaling" players is not something I support. You can't promise players one thing and then take it away from them. The cap is bad enough, but at least the players get to keep their champion points and if they desire they no longer need to be concerned with earning them like the other players below the cap.

The "Catch-up mechanic" wasn't designed to make player with 300 CPs catch up to players with 600 CPs. It was designed to make it easy for a player who had he started at the same time as the 600 CP player would be at 600 CPs with that player the opportunity to start at 0 CPs and catch up to and be competitive with that player.

Even so, the math easily supports a player with 300 CPs catching up to a player with 600 CPs *provided they both earn the exact same experience from that point forward and that is exactly how it should work*. With the less agressive slow-down penalty this will take longer than with the old formula but it will still happen because of that 1.5 multiplicative penalty on top of the normal "soft cap" penalty. You and most other people are only considering the penalty the player who is "behind" is currently facing above the soft cap but not considering the fact that the player already above the cap is facing not only the soft cap penalty but a 1.5x penalty on top of that for every CP he earns. The end result is that each season his lead over all other players earning an equal amount of experience will shrink season to season until it becomes negligible.

The problem is that the CP gap exists for a reason and having equal playing time is simply not a practical condition. The CP gap exists because some players are simply playing more. While there are players that are far more efficient in how they farm CP, the vast majority with high CP just play the game a lot. That is why a catchup mechanic is needed but in truth, the multiplier is what would really allow players to catchup since all progress above cap becomes stagnant to a degree. The multiplier serves little purpose as long as the cap already exists other than to severely hamper players that have played the game the most. This is simply a bad design choice. What makes it worse is that if you allow high CP players to keep their CP according to the previous linear system they will have to wait even longer until they can progress with a cap in place. Again, it's just bad design.

The point is that the experience curve should be made to give players a longterm goal and also keep them interested in playing. The new system makes all experience gains above cap pretty much stagnant but also gives players with 1,000+ CP asolutely nothing to work towards until the cap is increased to that point (in late 2016?). If the curve had moderate increases so that anyone above 445 CP would need to earn over 400k then they would still be rewarded for playing but begin to slow down over time. Any other player behind them would experience the same slow down when they reached that point. The difference would be that when the curve is readjusted the low CP players would again be able to gain at a slightly faster rate but so would the higher CP plalyers, just slightly slower. Then again, if playing time is a factor there may not be that much difference. The result is that low CP players would increase CP according to their limited time, while high CP players would increase CP according to their increased playing time. No multiplier is needed, just a curve that favors the low CP players and keeps them competitive without ever letting them truly catch the high CP players unless they start to play more. Besides, the cap will regulate anyone with large amounts of CP. A multiplier above cap is artificial and the experience curve will keep everyone competitive while still keeping CP gains relative to time invested.

One last note is that if you let players keep their CP according to the linear system you are giving them very little to work towards in the future. If you rescale them, remove the multiplier for being above cap, and adjust the curve so that their gains are slowed the higher they get you will reward them for playing but also minimize their CP advantage from the linear system (isn't that the entire point?). A player with 1,000 CP would still have a lot of CP, just be rescaled to ~700 (just a guess) and have to earn CP at well over 400k each. This may seem like a negative but it is far better than keeping 1,000 CP and basically just waiting for the cap to increase enough to allow them to have something to work towards again.

EDIT: Sorry, long post, I know. Having all players with equal CP is horrible for the game! You want CP discrepancy otherwise why have the system in place at all? You might as well just give all players X CP and let them customize their builds (which really means maximizing damage and sustain/regen).

DDemon

But, won't you, at one point in time, arrive at the same exact problem again? This change will only delay that, and punish the people with a lot of champion points.

This too, seems like a lazy way of handling this problem to me.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

DDemon wrote: »

But, won't you, at one point in time, arrive at the same exact problem again? This change will only delay that, and punish the people with a lot of champion points.

This too, seems like a lazy way of handling this problem to me.

yes, @Hiero_Glyph a solid point that this equation is based around equal access and game play. its not going to work because of the human and the game environment. thats why i recommended modifying the experience gains through one time quests to help new players catch up. the top will always be the top, the middle will always be the middle, and the bottom will always be the bottom. there is a way to help the bottom with out hindering the top.