Champion System Catch-up Mechanic

silky_soft

@Mcnick I'm 261cp and stand to benefit out of this. But I don't think the current formula is fair. We never asked for a penalty, just a cap and a reasonable way to catch up. We all thought there would be a cap between 600-800, not this low. We also thought that the catchup would just be a boost to enlightenment. Either by multiplying in tiers or permanent till a certain percentage of the cap, softcap. Both of these would require people to want CP and not hand it out for free.

But we got this instead


The first half of it up until the softcap is a great idea. Everything after is not so great. It rewards people now for grinding out as much xp as possible before the cap comes in. That trend of only being able to add 44cp for 500+ continues all the way. So investing time now will greatly benefit those people in the future.

There should be no penalty between soft and hard cap. Since they don't care about it costing us the same amount of xp per cp as it did the people over 2k. Keep the slight increase after hard cap till the next cap. Move the x3 from hard cap and place it at the next hard cap. This would allow for 'progression' for high cp earners, punish farmers/botters/exploiters who ruined it for everyone, a catch up for slower more casual players and not penalize the everyday players.

James-Wayne

silky_soft wrote: »

@Mcnick I'm 261cp and stand to benefit out of this. But I don't think the current formula is fair. We never asked for a penalty, just a cap and a reasonable way to catch up. We all thought there would be a cap between 600-800, not this low. We also thought that the catchup would just be a boost to enlightenment. Either by multiplying in tiers or permanent till a certain percentage of the cap, softcap. Both of these would require people to want CP and not hand it out for free.

But we got this instead


The first half of it up until the softcap is a great idea. Everything after is not so great. It rewards people now for grinding out as much xp as possible before the cap comes in. That trend of only being able to add 44cp for 500+ continues all the way. So investing time now will greatly benefit those people in the future.

There should be no penalty between soft and hard cap. Since they don't care about it costing us the same amount of xp per cp as it did the people over 2k. Keep the slight increase after hard cap till the next cap. Move the x3 from hard cap and place it at the next hard cap. This would allow for 'progression' for high cp earners, punish farmers/botters/exploiters who ruined it for everyone, a catch up for slower more casual players and not penalize the everyday players.

I agree, this is good.

Perhaps also boost to enlightenment players to seeing they need a extra boost to catch up OR does this new formula for catchup effect enlightenment automatically?

Personofsecrets

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

I feel that the catch up mechanic negates itself in some areas. It therefore doesn't make much sense to me. Look at the following scenario which I hope illustrates my point.

Player A needs to catch up to the Champion Point cap. They start with 200 champion points

Player A needs less than 400k exp for champion points going up to around 367 champion points
Player A needs more than 400k exp for champion points going from around 367 points to the cap.

So for player a, because of where they started (around 200 champion points), they never really get discounted champion points if their plan is to reach the cap. They just take out an experience loan that they have to pay back later.

Additionally, the heavy cost of champion point once at the cap will cause nobody to catch up to players that have already achieved 700 + champion points. That means that players who have done lame grinding and exp exploits get to sit back and relax while the rest of the players, who will be clustered around the cap, will still be scrambling to catch up to those high cp players once the cap is increased.

Now once the cap is increased to a very large number, then everyone will be on that equal footing, but my question then would be to ask how long until the champion point cap is 700, 1000, or even 1500.

I like the cap and I hope that you make it easy for players to reach the new caps once those new caps are implemented. If players are only able to reach a champion point cap by the time that the cap is about to be increased, then we will be thrown into the same hopeless situation of never being satisfied with champion point levels and always looking to blame inadequacies on those other players who must have higher champion point levels.

Also, here is an interesting thought for you to keep in mind. You are basically controlling how much champion points players can have now. I don't know why you make us even earn them if you plan for us to have certain numbers of them at certain points in time for the content that you will be releasing. Maybe consider getting rid of the need to gain them through getting exp and just tie them to content completion.

Personofsecrets

I'd also like to point out that players who are at the 501 cap are going to hate feeling like they aren't earning champion points.

Personofsecrets

The 501 Cap along with the catch up mechanic for non-capped players is enough. What goal does ramping up the experience needed to gain a cp post 501 cap serve except for frustrating players that are at the cap?

James-Wayne

I've mapped out what is required so everyone can see more clearly of the XP that is required if your interested:

nimander99

Wollust wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

I don't understand why they didn't just remove CP effect from PVP and leave the PVE system intact... a whole bunch of math and programming, messing with a system for no reason IMHO.

And what happens when we are all close to or at 501 then the cap is raised? Do we go back to 400k per point or is everyone sped up until they get close to new cap then its rtard town all over again?

You didn't bother reading the formula did you?

Of course I read a bunch of maths on meh day off *lie*

Yattaq wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

I don't understand why they didn't just remove CP effect from PVP and leave the PVE system intact... a whole bunch of math and programming, messing with a system for no reason IMHO.

Because they need to be able to balance pve content too.

See, this was ultimately the point I tried to make (leaving out the eventual power of 3600 CP's because I have no idea how powerful that truly makes one) in other posts was the Champ Sys was power over and above the balance of the game... at least that is how I understood the pitch to be.

AlnilamE

Ezareth wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

I understand what you are saying, but you have to consider a few things:

1. The power difference between the "soft cap" of 338 and the "hard cap" of 501 is not that great. It's far more important to have newer players accumulate CP at a faster rate until they get to the soft cap.
2. People are considering rushing now because there will be a penalty, not because there will be a cap.
3. If someone is at the new cap already when new content is released, what does that matter?
4. Penalizing people for being above the soft cap and in particular penalizing them with a x3 multiplier is a huge disincentive to playing. I mean, would they rather have people who are between the soft cap and the hard cap to play a bit more because they have a (relatively) short-term goal of getting to the cap, or just stop playing between now and when the cap is raised so they don't have to deal with penalties anymore?

Because for those of us that play the game organically and are happy when we get a champion point in as we go about our day (CP earned while unlocking chests are the best!), it feels like we will be penalized, particularly in instances where XP gain is unique, like questing and exploration).

And that is a huge disincentive to playing. Seriously, I've played since launch. I've never run out of things to do, because I take my time and I have varied interests, but when I first read about this, I felt completely discouraged from playing.

If you're replying to me:

1) The soft cap to me isn't about a about a power difference, but giving people a sense of progression for as long as possible (which yes includes a power difference even if minimal). Giving newer players the ability to catch up is solution addressing the power difference issue

2) People are rushing now because of the penalty in many cases yes but they also haven't really considered the penalty that awaits them at cap of 3X. This means that every experience point I earn right now to save me 30-44% a penalty is actually being taxed at 66% with an even greater penalty. The only reason I want to be at 501 CPs at the release of Osrinium is so that I'll have the maximum power possible to clear Maelstrom Arena to get the Gear I want from there. I'm sure you'll find that many others are thinking along those lines as well. I'm not looking forward to spending the next who knows however many months sitting at CP cap.

3) Yes it does because it eliminates the players sense of progression for the duration of their time at cap. They get to see the majority of other players all catching up to them and improving their characters and their character remains unchanged until the cap is raised. That's the whole scenario that the design of this formula is meant to prevent. (The up to 44% Softcap "penalty")

4. IMO The hard cap penalty is a long term plan. As people play an entire season at hard cap they will realize that grinding CPs really isn't going to help them in the future and that normal playing will get them to the hard cap each season and make that time playing enjoyable. Most grinders don't enjoy grinding, but they do enjoy the sense of progression that grinding brings.

I think the disincentive to play is there regardless of the penalty for those players at the cap. That's the major issue with the cap period, and there is no way to eliminate that with the implementation of the cap (unless they institute an alternate reward system for "Flavor" items or crowns or something for experience gained over the cap)

I was yes.

I think there is a big difference in terms of progression between being at the cap and yet still be earning CP at a regular rate that will be available when the cap is lifted (like a term-deposit that you can't access for 3 months but then it's yours to use as you please) and getting hit first with a progressive penalty of up to 44% and then another 66% on top of that. You will essentially be wasting 75% (at least, sorry, I'm guesstimating) of any XP you earn and you will NOT get that back when the cap is lifted. That is a complete disincentive to playing at all, which I don't think is what ZOS wants.

I mean, if you get to the cap, you can still do stuff like go get the new gear, do the quests, writs, pledges and feel like you are using your time effectively without an XP penalty.

Personally, I think I could handle up to a 10% penalty if I didn't have ESO+. Bit having a penalty that completely negates the benefit of subscribing is kind of ridiculous. Anything higher and I would be discouraged from playing, period. If I happened to hit the 3x penalty, I would just leave, and while I would have every intention of coming back when there was new DLS and the cap was raised, there is no guarantee that I wouldn't be completely immersed into another game and lost to ESO forever.

And I'm not worried about people who grind. I'm worried about people who play the game a lot in an organic way, because they are at or close to the soft cap, and they are going to see their progression slow down and essentially halt.

Last year, we had progressive XP for vet ranks. That was changed over a year ago because people felt it took too long to level. Now they want to institute the same thing again (increased XP for diminishing returns even), because it worked so well the first time?

AlnilamE

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

The x3 multiplier is there to prevent people being at or near cap everytime they raise it. Coupled with the catchup system, they're attempting to bunch their playerbase into a narrower band of CPs, which I guess helps balance their newly designed content, along with balancing pvp.

There are of course going to be people at the 501 cap already and they are complaining about being penalised because of the x3 multiplier. But when the second cap arrives, the x3 penalty will be lifted and if all goes to plan, you will barely hit this cap before its raised again. Repeat for each cap raise and for most people you should find a continued progression of CP earning similar to how its working on live, with maybe a brief pause at cap for some of the more regular players. Its only the current cap of 501 some people are going to find themselves stuck at for a while and 'penalised' with the x3 multiplier.

The cap will be lifted, but afaik, the 66% XP that was wasted for being above the cap is never going to come back.

Gilvoth

this is straight up horrible, horrible

i love eso and i love pvp but,

there is 3 things ruining pvp for me right now:

1) these champion points
i will NEVER be able to catch up to people with those 501 CP, NEVER!
fact is i only have 278 champion points, and right now that means i pretty much get eaten alive by those with 350 or more champion points and most people have well over 500 and even 1000 champion points. ive played every day since beta and launch and i know for a fact i have played fairly and not grinded and grinded because i hate grinding!
yet those who grind thier brains out are allowed to be more powerfull then the rest of us? its not only unfair its down right mean of the developers to allow people to be so much more over powered like that.
why in heck are you letting people go way out in strength above others?
really terrible!

2) the fact that crowd controll and forcing me to be knocked down on a constant basis and locked into place constantly completely overpowering me with high damage. for me makes pvp unplayable and honestly turns my stomach!
the devs seem to have also placed every few foot something in the enviroment that STOPs me from moving and i cant move!
that alone really pisses me off
I HATE IT!

3) the class imbalances:
its obvious that sorcerers (and used to be dragonights) DOMINNATED everything in pvp
every class should have the same effect and same identical ability damage as the other classes. and right now they dont.

AlnilamE

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this is straight up horrible, horrible

i love eso and i love pvp but,

there is 3 things ruining pvp for me right now:

1) these champion points
i will NEVER be able to catch up to people with those 501 CP, NEVER!
fact is i only have 278 champion points, and right now that means i pretty much get eaten alive by those with 350 or more champion points and most people have well over 500 and even 1000 champion points. ive played every day since beta and launch and i know for a fact i have played fairly and not grinded and grinded because i hate grinding!
yet those who grind thier brains out are allowed to be more powerfull then the rest of us? its not only unfair its down right mean of the developers to allow people to be so much more over powered like that.
why in heck are you letting people go way out in strength above others?
really terrible!

Sorry, but if you have 278 CP and are being "eaten alive" by people with 350, you may be doing something wrong. If you had say, 50, that would be a different story, but at 270+ you can put 30CP into each constellation and essentially get any of the 30-point passives you want.

Maybe you need to re-evaluate your build?

NativeJoe

silky_soft wrote: »

@Mcnick I'm 261cp and stand to benefit out of this. But I don't think the current formula is fair. We never asked for a penalty, just a cap and a reasonable way to catch up. We all thought there would be a cap between 600-800, not this low. We also thought that the catchup would just be a boost to enlightenment. Either by multiplying in tiers or permanent till a certain percentage of the cap, softcap. Both of these would require people to want CP and not hand it out for free.

But we got this instead


The first half of it up until the softcap is a great idea. Everything after is not so great. It rewards people now for grinding out as much xp as possible before the cap comes in. That trend of only being able to add 44cp for 500+ continues all the way. So investing time now will greatly benefit those people in the future.

There should be no penalty between soft and hard cap. Since they don't care about it costing us the same amount of xp per cp as it did the people over 2k. Keep the slight increase after hard cap till the next cap. Move the x3 from hard cap and place it at the next hard cap. This would allow for 'progression' for high cp earners, punish farmers/botters/exploiters who ruined it for everyone, a catch up for slower more casual players and not penalize the everyday players.

And out of curiosity what would that equation be? after all they may not know how to do that maths stuff, you've seen the balancing *teases*

OrphanHelgen

This is not good.
If I play like a maniac when having the cap. Then stop playing for a month after new cap releases. Then it means people with lower cp will avtually have more then me, even tho I have in the lifetime played more.
Looks like you punish tye one that play most, and reward players who dont play much. The 500 cp cap are too low!

OrphanHelgen

Its already enlightenment, cap and xp difference..
The tripple xp needed for earning when above the cap are just too much.

ennuid

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Additionally, the heavy cost of champion point once at the cap will cause nobody to catch up to players that have already achieved 700 + champion points. That means that players who have done lame grinding and exp exploits get to sit back and relax while the rest of the players, who will be clustered around the cap, will still be scrambling to catch up to those high cp players once the cap is increased.

This is a really good point, and I'd like to hear from @ZOS_RyanRuzich because on PTS, people are keeping their earned champion points and not their earned champion experience. There is a huge difference between the two, and the system as it is now is a gift to the grinders.

To explain, if you have 100 champion points now, you got them with 40 million xp worth of time and effort. A new player trying to get those same 100 points will only need to earn 9 million xp under the new system. The net result, you're being "robbed" of 31 million xp.

But if you have 1000 champion points, you got them with 400 million xp. A new player trying to catch up would need 1,400 million xp. Players with 1000 champion points are being gifted more than a billion champion xp by the new system.

Here's how it looks for everyone:



Everybody with fewer than 535 champion points will lose experience in the new system. If you have 140-500 champion points, you will lose more than 100 champion points worth of time and effort. Worse, there will be no way to catch up to those with 1000 champion points, because they are being gifted billions of xp!

Please let people keep their total earned champion experience in the new system, not just their champion points.

Masuimi

CP being character only instead of account wide would solve a lot of issues.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

i agree with the lastest analysis of this system. its a fabulous system, that should have been implemented a long time ago, there are too many "gotcha" points in this system in the current life of the champion system to be as good as its being perceived.

Masuimi wrote: »

CP being character only instead of account wide would solve a lot of issues.

ya that should have been all along, you don't even need to grind to get CP for another character, when you can just play another character. thats why some ended up grinding, and some didn't, because not everyone wants to do the same thing in a game.

i the more and more i poor over the data, analysis the valid concerncs/complaints, the more i think a modified tier system is the better bet. at firs ti thought the soft cap was crap with the hard cap, but i think the soft cap based on a CP rank tier system, would go further for the business and the player base.

currently the soft cap is 350. raise it to 400 for the sake of simplicity and do the following:

-0-100 CPs require 100k experience per point
-100-200 requires 200k experience per point
-200-300 requires 300k experience per point
-400+ requires 400k per point

or if thats too fast (and it could very well be)

-0-100 CP requires 200k experience per point
-100-200 CP requires 300k per experience point
-200+CP requires 400k per point

**these numbers can/should be modified, based on the average experience gain of the players which i do not have and ZoS probably won't release**

as the soft cap gets raised, you just need to make sure to blend the points in such a way that they cover the expected mean of the CPs players should be expected to be at.

enlightenment should only be applied to characters NOT online. it should not be given to players that are online in the game. the more offline you are the more enlightenment you get; the more online you are the less you get. i don't understand why im online getting enlightenment anyways right now when i am playing.

since CPs are account bound (which should never have been allowed), the champion rank should be applied to all characters, or the account bound component should be removed, with my proposed tier based system

Katinas

@ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

We only triple the point values if you are over the current Champion Point cap—once we raise the cap, the values will return to normal.

Please reconsider tripling those values! Or only triple them for those players that already have 3x more than the upcoming CP cap is (for those people who have 3 * 501 = 1503 and more champion points), and only double them for everyone else that are in 502 - 1502 CP range.

Another point, what are we supposed to get the XP required for Champion Points progression from? At the moment 1 CP needs 400.000 XP: doing a daily crafting quest gives around 800 experience points. Completing all professions each day gives a laughable one percent of required progress. Similarly unimpressive experience is rewarded for daily Undaunted quests. Surely you will increase the XP given for daily quests, daily Undaunted pledges, trials and the rest? It would be so depressing to see your pgrogress barely even move when you need several millions of XP towards next CP and all you get is a couple of thousands.

Award players who complete quests and storylines. ESO has amazing single player content which is doable for beginners and experienced players but so many people are discouraged to play Cadwell's Silver and Gold storylines because the rewards are not good enough given how much time it takes to complete them. Encourage us to do Cadwell's storylines, Craglorn and upcoming Orsinium by rewarding us with appropriate experience!

silky_soft

NativeJoe wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

@Mcnick I'm 261cp and stand to benefit out of this. But I don't think the current formula is fair. We never asked for a penalty, just a cap and a reasonable way to catch up. We all thought there would be a cap between 600-800, not this low. We also thought that the catchup would just be a boost to enlightenment. Either by multiplying in tiers or permanent till a certain percentage of the cap, softcap. Both of these would require people to want CP and not hand it out for free.

But we got this instead


The first half of it up until the softcap is a great idea. Everything after is not so great. It rewards people now for grinding out as much xp as possible before the cap comes in. That trend of only being able to add 44cp for 500+ continues all the way. So investing time now will greatly benefit those people in the future.

There should be no penalty between soft and hard cap. Since they don't care about it costing us the same amount of xp per cp as it did the people over 2k. Keep the slight increase after hard cap till the next cap. Move the x3 from hard cap and place it at the next hard cap. This would allow for 'progression' for high cp earners, punish farmers/botters/exploiters who ruined it for everyone, a catch up for slower more casual players and not penalize the everyday players.

And out of curiosity what would that equation be? after all they may not know how to do that maths stuff, you've seen the balancing *teases*

@NativeJoe nfi how to make it an equation haha but code be something like this I guess.

If ($TotalPoints < 338 or ($TotalPoints > 500 and $TotalPoints < 840)) {
       $cplvl = (($TotalPoints / ($cap ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000
} elseif ($TotalPoints > 337 and $TotalPoints < 501) {
       $cplvl = 400000
} else {
       $cplvl = (($TotalPoints / ($cap ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000 * 3
}

OrphanHelgen

ennuid wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Additionally, the heavy cost of champion point once at the cap will cause nobody to catch up to players that have already achieved 700 + champion points. That means that players who have done lame grinding and exp exploits get to sit back and relax while the rest of the players, who will be clustered around the cap, will still be scrambling to catch up to those high cp players once the cap is increased.

This is a really good point, and I'd like to hear from @ZOS_RyanRuzich because on PTS, people are keeping their earned champion points and not their earned champion experience. There is a huge difference between the two, and the system as it is now is a gift to the grinders.

To explain, if you have 100 champion points now, you got them with 40 million xp worth of time and effort. A new player trying to get those same 100 points will only need to earn 9 million xp under the new system. The net result, you're being "robbed" of 31 million xp.

But if you have 1000 champion points, you got them with 400 million xp. A new player trying to catch up would need 1,400 million xp. Players with 1000 champion points are being gifted more than a billion champion xp by the new system.

Here's how it looks for everyone:



Everybody with fewer than 535 champion points will lose experience in the new system. If you have 140-500 champion points, you will lose more than 100 champion points worth of time and effort. Worse, there will be no way to catch up to those with 1000 champion points, because they are being gifted billions of xp!

Please let people keep their total earned champion experience in the new system, not just their champion points.

This

zornyan

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

this is straight up horrible, horrible

i love eso and i love pvp but,

there is 3 things ruining pvp for me right now:

1) these champion points
i will NEVER be able to catch up to people with those 501 CP, NEVER!
fact is i only have 278 champion points, and right now that means i pretty much get eaten alive by those with 350 or more champion points and most people have well over 500 and even 1000 champion points. ive played every day since beta and launch and i know for a fact i have played fairly and not grinded and grinded because i hate grinding!
yet those who grind thier brains out are allowed to be more powerfull then the rest of us? its not only unfair its down right mean of the developers to allow people to be so much more over powered like that.
why in heck are you letting people go way out in strength above others?
really terrible!

2) the fact that crowd controll and forcing me to be knocked down on a constant basis and locked into place constantly completely overpowering me with high damage. for me makes pvp unplayable and honestly turns my stomach!
the devs seem to have also placed every few foot something in the enviroment that STOPs me from moving and i cant move!
that alone really pisses me off
I HATE IT!

3) the class imbalances:
its obvious that sorcerers (and used to be dragonights) DOMINNATED everything in pvp
every class should have the same effect and same identical ability damage as the other classes. and right now they dont.

Where's the ROFLMAOLOL button?

Sorcerers dominated pvp? Jesus they were easy picking in light armor unless they just sat there shielding themselves and nothing else? Especially with shield breaker they are now easy pickings

No no and no, if every single class had had the same abilities why have classes at all? That's why we have templar healers, and dragon knight tanks, because it adds diversity, and class can fill any role as it is, if you fail at this that's a you problem.

Crowd control gives you 6 secs of inmunity, if you cant form any sort of defense or offense but just sit there crying like a baby then you shouldn't be in any sort of pvp.

Finally someone with 50 more cp than you doesn't have any sort of advantage, and they deserve to be more powerful as they have put hours into the game, unlike say yourself a person that goes in pvp, gets his ass kicked and comes crying to the forums .

olsborg

Everyone under 1k cp shouldnt have to gain more then 400k per cp if you ask me, then it would be a true catchup mechanic towards the top grinder. But thats just me..

Paulington

Hey all.

Myself and @Zinaroth have been discussing this system and whilst we have differing opinions on whether or not there should be a hard cap in the system we believe we have come up with two viable systems.

I will let @Zinaroth explain his system in the post he makes so I will focus on mine here.

XP Required = 100,000 + [CP Rank * (300,000/CP CAP)]

My suggestion is that the CP at the cap takes 400,000 XP to earn and everything prior to that takes <400,000 XP down to a base of 100,000 XP for CP Rank 1.

My first example is that with Orsinium the cap be set to 600 CP instead of the current 501, this means in 2.2 the graph of XP required vs. CP would look like this:



Once you hit the cap of 600 it levels out and each CP over the cap requires 400k XP. This means that those people who continue playing will feel like they are progressing their character still and not having to earn millions of XP for ever infinitesimal gains. We have to remember that it is ultimately irrelevant if someone has 2,000 CP over the cap because they can only spend the cap so why artificially limit their CP gain rate? This game is "play your way", so if they want to grind CP before the cap so they can "cap out" as soon as it is raised, why not?

Now, we have a cap of 600 with Orsinium release, when and how is the cap raised? We all know we dislike not knowing when things will happen and like to plan ahead, so my suggestion is a biannual CP cap raise on pre-determined dates. The cap would raise by 375 CP twice a year.



Of course if this rate of cap increase is too slow it could be modified, but I think 750 CP per year is a solid rate of cap increase based upon the expected life cycle of this game at release.

Now the important part is that when the cap is raised, the XP required for the CP below the cap changes also. Here is a comparison graph for the cap at 600 and the first cap raise to 975.



As you can see, it becomes easier to gain the first CP Ranks and "catch up" to those at the cap as time goes on. This means that even if you start playing ESO when the cap is 2,100 you can with effort catch up to those at the cap.

With this system, enlightenment would remain unchanged at 400,000 XP per day. This means people with low CP will get more CP per day than those at the cap if they only use their enlightenment each day.

DISCLAIMER: I've yet to fully flesh this out and may have made a mistake or two throwing it together. I don't claim that this is THE solution but I believe it is better than the current solution. I would be open to a combination of my system and @Zinaroth's system where CP get more expensive after the cap but it doesn't go above 400k XP per CP prior to the current cap. I'm just looking for input and advice on this.

Thanks to @Zinaroth for helping me out here!

AlnilamE

olsborg wrote: »

Everyone under 1k cp shouldnt have to gain more then 400k per cp if you ask me, then it would be a true catchup mechanic towards the top grinder. But thats just me..

Can we please stop worrying about the handful of people who have 1000+ CP that they can't use anyway?

It doesn't matter how many CP above the cap one has, they can't use them anyway.

The catch-up system is not there to make everybody rush to 1000 CP to catch up with them. It's designed to help new players and players who may have less time to play to catch up with what ZOS seems to consider the "sweet spot" below the cap (currently around 338 CP for a cap of 501)

I think that's a good strategy and I like their formula up to the point where you hit 400k XP/CP again. I think from then on it should just stay that way regardless of whether or not someone is above the cap.

yttoks

Paulington wrote:

"Once you hit the cap of 600 it levels out and each CP over the cap requires 400k XP. This means that those people who continue playing will feel like they are progressing their character still and not having to earn millions of XP for ever infinitesimal gains. We have to remember that it is ultimately irrelevant if someone has 2,000 CP over the cap because they can only spend the cap so why artificially limit their CP gain rate? This game is "play your way", so if they want to grind CP before the cap so they can "cap out" as soon as it is raised, why not?"

I don't believe it is entirely "play your way" from ZoS's perspective. They don't want people to grind. The system going into place kills any motivation to grind CP above the cap. I think that is by design and an important objective for ZoS.

It does reward people who have been grinding away all along, and some people are bothered by this, but it will presumably cause them to stop doing so going forward.

Not sure how great a reward it is for the grinders, though. If they plan to raise the cap by 100 or so CP at a time, the grinders will have 100 or so CP advantage over people at the cap for awhile every time the cap goes up. The difference between 0 and 100 CP is large. Between 500 and 600, 1000 and 1100, not so much.

Hiero_Glyph

As a side note, the balance of the game becomes utterly ruined once you hit over ~1,200 CP. Getting to the max of 3,600 would be the end of the game as we know it. Yes, it's good to have longterm goals but CP were ill-conceived from the start and not correcting this error will cause way more harm than good. Specifically, no catchup mechanic will ever compensate for having to grind 2,000+ CP in a reasonable amount of time, the power gap is far too large. I hate to say it but CP needs a perma-cap and it should not exceed 1,440 (40% of 3,600).

Lastly, CP ruins build diversity since there is only a finite number of passives to select from. Every build should have a weakness or have to sacrifice a strength to compensate for such weakness(es). Once you have enough CP you can literally compensate for all of those shortcomings and still maximize your build's damage. The more CP you have the easier this is to accomplish. Worse yet, every other player with the same number of CP is doing exactly the same thing you are with almost no variation. DKs are the tanks, well not when every class has -25% damage from almost all sources (except physical). You want to deal damage with a DoT, well if it's magic or elemental it's getting -25% damage applied twice. The sytem is fun until you realizethat it breaks most of the game's mechanics.

AlnilamE

yttoks wrote: »

Paulington wrote:

"Once you hit the cap of 600 it levels out and each CP over the cap requires 400k XP. This means that those people who continue playing will feel like they are progressing their character still and not having to earn millions of XP for ever infinitesimal gains. We have to remember that it is ultimately irrelevant if someone has 2,000 CP over the cap because they can only spend the cap so why artificially limit their CP gain rate? This game is "play your way", so if they want to grind CP before the cap so they can "cap out" as soon as it is raised, why not?"

I don't believe it is entirely "play your way" from ZoS's perspective. They don't want people to grind. The system going into place kills any motivation to grind CP above the cap. I think that is by design and an important objective for ZoS.

It does reward people who have been grinding away all along, and some people are bothered by this, but it will presumably cause them to stop doing so going forward.

Not sure how great a reward it is for the grinders, though. If they plan to raise the cap by 100 or so CP at a time, the grinders will have 100 or so CP advantage over people at the cap for awhile every time the cap goes up. The difference between 0 and 100 CP is large. Between 500 and 600, 1000 and 1100, not so much.

I think a plain cap would pretty much kill the motivation to grind above the cap. To me, the x3 penalty kills the motivation to play above the cap (and below the cap as well, once the XP per CP is significantly larger than 400k.)

Zinaroth

Thanks @Paulington and thanks for helping me sketch out my suggestion for the CP system aswell.

If anyone is interested in reading my suggestion on a different CP advancement system that doesn't utilize hard caps feel free to check it out here:

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/223595/suggestion-alternative-cp-advancement#latest

pmn100b16_ESO

If you let this play out, chances are you won't even hit the caps to worry about the x3 penalty. Even if you do it'll probably only be for a short while. Its only this initial cap of 501 that some people are going to be stalled at for a few months. In the future I suspect its going to be a very small percentage of the player base that will be sitting at caps for any appreciable length of time.

Paulington

AlnilamE wrote: »

yttoks wrote: »

Paulington wrote:

"Once you hit the cap of 600 it levels out and each CP over the cap requires 400k XP. This means that those people who continue playing will feel like they are progressing their character still and not having to earn millions of XP for ever infinitesimal gains. We have to remember that it is ultimately irrelevant if someone has 2,000 CP over the cap because they can only spend the cap so why artificially limit their CP gain rate? This game is "play your way", so if they want to grind CP before the cap so they can "cap out" as soon as it is raised, why not?"

I don't believe it is entirely "play your way" from ZoS's perspective. They don't want people to grind. The system going into place kills any motivation to grind CP above the cap. I think that is by design and an important objective for ZoS.

It does reward people who have been grinding away all along, and some people are bothered by this, but it will presumably cause them to stop doing so going forward.

Not sure how great a reward it is for the grinders, though. If they plan to raise the cap by 100 or so CP at a time, the grinders will have 100 or so CP advantage over people at the cap for awhile every time the cap goes up. The difference between 0 and 100 CP is large. Between 500 and 600, 1000 and 1100, not so much.

I think a plain cap would pretty much kill the motivation to grind above the cap. To me, the x3 penalty kills the motivation to play above the cap (and below the cap as well, once the XP per CP is significantly larger than 400k.)

This is a key bone of contention with me as well @AlnilamE.

Once I am requiring 500k-1,000k XP per CP I think "Well, what's the point?" and I feel as if I am putting in ridiculous amounts of effort for basically zero gain.

Compared to 400k XP flat above the cap where I feel like I am still doing something and will still gain at least 1 CP per day due to enlightenment, regardless of whether or not I can spend it.