Champion System Catch-up Mechanic

ZOS_RyanRuzich · October 2015

Greetings all!

There have been several requests on the forums for an explanation of exactly how the Champion System Catch-up mechanic we’re introducing with the Orsinium patch works. We’re here to offer some details about how the system works on the PTS, and hopefully answer some of your questions. Please note: This thread is not to discuss the pros/cons of the system, but rather to pass on some information about how the system currently works to help you with testing, and assist us in spotting any inconsistencies or errors.

With the new system, the formula used to calculate the amount of XP needed to gain a single Champion Point is as follows:
((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula, and then tripled. (So, the XP you would need to earn 512 Champion Points is 589,807, which is then tripled to 1,769,421.)
For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 1XP is required.
We only triple the point values if you are over the current Champion Point cap—once we raise the cap, the values will return to normal.

The new catch-up mechanic, currently on PTS, is subject to change based on player feedback and data. We’ll be iterating on it as needed on the PTS—we’ll do our best to update this post if and when that happens.

Please let us know if you have any questions!

silky_soft · October 2015

Why not just boost enlightenment?

Xeven · October 2015

So to get CP #501 it takes 576,733 XP. I'm ok with that because with the given formula it will be 634,219 XP to get CP #3600, which isn't much more by itself TBH. I don't mind working alittle harder for each CP if it means players with unlimited play time can't run away with the game.

Nice work guys.

silky_soft · October 2015

Xeven wrote: »

So to get CP #501 it takes 576,733 XP. I'm ok with that because with the given formula it will be 634,219 XP to get CP #3600, which isn't much more TBH.

Nice work guys.

If the cap was 3600 it would be 1902657 from 3599 to 3600. Problem we are having is with this implementation it is penalizing those that have not ground out 1000+ cp.
3600 not exceed 3600.

So someone at 2000 would need to get 2210934xp for 2001 cp. But this is not the case because earlier we found out that for 698th champ point you'll need 2377344.
ok it works math with no redbull no work.

Still at no stage should any we earn be harder than what it took for them to earn if they are not scaled back.

Xeven · October 2015

silky_soft wrote: »

If the cap was 3600 it would be 1902657 from 3599 to 3600. Problem we are having is with this implementation it is penalizing those that have not ground out 1000+ cp.

So someone at 2000 would need to get 2210934xp for 2001 cp. But this is not the case because earlier we found out that for 698th champ point you'll need 2377344.

((3599/(3600^0.95))+0.08)*400000 = 634,219

It's only tripled if you exceed the cap. It really is a fantastic formula.

zornyan · October 2015

Xeven wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

If the cap was 3600 it would be 1902657 from 3599 to 3600. Problem we are having is with this implementation it is penalizing those that have not ground out 1000+ cp.

So someone at 2000 would need to get 2210934xp for 2001 cp. But this is not the case because earlier we found out that for 698th champ point you'll need 2377344.

((3599/(3600^0.95))+0.08)*400000 = 634,219

It's only tripled if you exceed the cap.

You forgot to triple it...

Besides if you check the other thread people have been posting up numbers of which they require for next cp, and people over 500 are already needing over a million, and people at 700+ are into several million per cp.

So especially you're happy to have a rough number of 2-3 million per cp for anyone that remotely played the game since releaae?

Xeven · October 2015

zornyan wrote: »

You forgot to triple it...

Besides if you check the other thread people have been posting up numbers of which they require for next cp, and people over 500 are already needing over a million, and people at 700+ are into several million per cp.

So especially you're happy to have a rough number of 2-3 million per cp for anyone that remotely played the game since releaae?

That's what the catch up system is supposed to do.

Yattaq · October 2015

zornyan wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

If the cap was 3600 it would be 1902657 from 3599 to 3600. Problem we are having is with this implementation it is penalizing those that have not ground out 1000+ cp.

So someone at 2000 would need to get 2210934xp for 2001 cp. But this is not the case because earlier we found out that for 698th champ point you'll need 2377344.

((3599/(3600^0.95))+0.08)*400000 = 634,219

It's only tripled if you exceed the cap.

You forgot to triple it...

Besides if you check the other thread people have been posting up numbers of which they require for next cp, and people over 500 are already needing over a million, and people at 700+ are into several million per cp.

So especially you're happy to have a rough number of 2-3 million per cp for anyone that remotely played the game since releaae?

You don't triple it if the cap is 3600.

silky_soft · October 2015

Xeven wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

If the cap was 3600 it would be 1902657 from 3599 to 3600. Problem we are having is with this implementation it is penalizing those that have not ground out 1000+ cp.

So someone at 2000 would need to get 2210934xp for 2001 cp. But this is not the case because earlier we found out that for 698th champ point you'll need 2377344.

((3599/(3600^0.95))+0.08)*400000 = 634,219

It's only tripled if you exceed the cap. It really is a fantastic formula.

Just woke up. Math without redbull no work.

Sublime · October 2015

For those who prefer graphics (Plots are based on the 501 cap):

http://fooplot.com/plot/khhyy9dxgx
http://fooplot.com/plot/tlk2778c6l

ZOS_RyanRuzich · October 2015

silky_soft wrote: »

So someone at 2000 would need to get 2210934xp for 2001 cp. But this is not the case because earlier we found out that for 698th champ point you'll need 2377344.

Unless the math is wrong:
((698 / (501 ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000 * 3 = 2377344
((2000 / (501 ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000 * 3 = 6632803
Is this not what you're seeing on PTS?

zornyan · October 2015

Xeven wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

You forgot to triple it...

Besides if you check the other thread people have been posting up numbers of which they require for next cp, and people over 500 are already needing over a million, and people at 700+ are into several million per cp.

So especially you're happy to have a rough number of 2-3 million per cp for anyone that remotely played the game since releaae?

That's what the catch up system is supposed to do.

No a catch up system is supposed to help buff lower cp players gain at an increased rate, like giving them 3x enlightenment per day, in fact when anyone hits 338 cp they will be earning even slower, so someone at say 50cp now might only hit 550 by the next DLC and next cap increase, but the people a 100 now will start to hit a really hard wall after 400 cp, and they won't want to start grinding 500k per cp.

This is more of a 'slow down' than a catch up mechanic, along with posting off a large majority of the player base, they are actually making it easier for people with lots of cp now to start hundreds of cp ahead in the future.

silky_soft · October 2015

Still the fact is that those above 338 now have to get more XP then the current farmers for their next CP

silky_soft · October 2015

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

So someone at 2000 would need to get 2210934xp for 2001 cp. But this is not the case because earlier we found out that for 698th champ point you'll need 2377344.

Unless the math is wrong:
((698 / (501 ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000 * 3 = 2377344
((2000 / (501 ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000 * 3 = 6632803
Is this not what you're seeing on PTS?

@ZOS_RyanRuzich I already edit it mate.

Why not boost enlightenment though?
How come it costs us more to earn CP?
Are those above cap going to be scaled down?

ZOS_RyanRuzich · October 2015

silky_soft wrote: »

I already edit it mate

There's a lag for when a post is submitted on our end and when it gets approved. Sorry :-(

silky_soft · October 2015

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

I already edit it mate

There's a lag for when a post is submitted on our end and when it gets approved. Sorry :-(

Must be EP healing springs zerg in cyro again.

Wollust · October 2015

Great formula. Seriously. Very good to catch up those first 300 CPs which are by far the ones that make the biggest difference.
I have one concern though. Why am I getting punished for having more than the Cap? I played your game on a daily basis since the release, I payed my sub (since the release of the game in 2014) for more exp and because I think this game is worth putting the money in, i bought scrolls and potions to boost my exp because I didn't want to fall behind. Now I'm sitting on almost 700 CPs with no chance of earning many more in the future because your tripling rule is preventing me from doing so. Why is this necessairy? Isn't it enough that every player above the cap loses progression they made over the past few months? I'm fine with not being able to spend approx. 250 cp as of november, but I'm not fine with the fact that every new CP will cost me millions to earn. And all because I played your game loyally.

silky_soft · October 2015

@ZOS_RyanRuzich so this is true comparing new system to old system?

I'm 260 cp
It will cost me 7cp less to get to 338cp
It will then cost me 36cp more to get to from 338cp to 501cp
Which makes me 31cp worse off under the new system.

Assuming that I stop trying to perfect my rotation and counters actually pvp'ing to grind pve.

Kwivur · October 2015

Great job. I like knowing that people with 2500 CP need 8,267,003 XP while the cap is 501. I'd like to see someone no life that. lol

Emma_Overload · October 2015

This isn't just a catch-up mechanic... it's a SLOW-DOWN mechanic. After 501 CP, every 2 out of 3 hours of game time is effectively WASTED due to the tripling of XP required per CP.

I don't understand why they needed a slow-down when the cap is present. Why can't we stockpile CP for the next cap?

Xeven · October 2015

silky_soft wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich so this is true comparing new system to old system?

I'm 260 cp
It will cost me 7cp less to get to 338cp
It will then cost me 36cp more to get to from 338cp to 501cp
Which makes me 31cp worse off under the new system.

Assuming that I stop trying to perfect my rotation and counters actually pvp'ing to grind pve.

That point of view doesn't paint the whole picture. You will be far better off under the new system competitively, and this is only the first iteration of the formula.

If your math is correct, esentially you're forfitting 31 xp for a fair fight vs anyone with 1600+ cp.

jluchau · October 2015

zornyan wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

If the cap was 3600 it would be 1902657 from 3599 to 3600. Problem we are having is with this implementation it is penalizing those that have not ground out 1000+ cp.

So someone at 2000 would need to get 2210934xp for 2001 cp. But this is not the case because earlier we found out that for 698th champ point you'll need 2377344.

((3599/(3600^0.95))+0.08)*400000 = 634,219

It's only tripled if you exceed the cap.

So especially you're happy to have a rough number of 2-3 million per cp for anyone that remotely played the game since releaae?

I've played at least 5 days a weak since launch... I have 103 CP's currently. I understand I'm no where near as active as some but I suspect i'm about average. I suspect the way this works nobody will be in the 2-3 million xp per cp range.

pmn100b16_ESO · October 2015

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

...Please note: This thread is not to discuss the pros/cons of the system, but rather to pass on some information about how the system currently works to help you with testing, and assist us in spotting any inconsistencies or errors...

Ezareth · October 2015

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Greetings all!

There have been several requests on the forums for an explanation of exactly how the Champion System Catch-up mechanic we’re introducing with the Orsinium patch works. We’re here to offer some details about how the system works on the PTS, and hopefully answer some of your questions. Please note: This thread is not to discuss the pros/cons of the system, but rather to pass on some information about how the system currently works to help you with testing, and assist us in spotting any inconsistencies or errors.

With the new system, the formula used to calculate the amount of XP needed to gain a single Champion Point is as follows:
((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula, and then tripled. (So, the XP you would need to earn 512 Champion Points is 589,807, which is then tripled to 1,769,421.)
For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 1XP is required.
We only triple the point values if you are over the current Champion Point cap—once we raise the cap, the values will return to normal.

The new catch-up mechanic, currently on PTS, is subject to change based on player feedback and data. We’ll be iterating on it as needed on the PTS—we’ll do our best to update this post if and when that happens.

Please let us know if you have any questions!

Ryan,

I really like this formula! It accomplishes everything the community has been wanting in a reasonable manner

My only issue with the existing Seasonal cap you've set for PC is I feel that 501 CPs is too low and will rob many active players such as myself and many others who have played the game normally of a normal sense of progression. I'd be fine with earning CPs (that I can spend) at the increased cost that players in the 338CP to the 501CP range are seeing with the existing cap but I and many other active players and supporters of ESO are going to go into Osrinium patch earning future CPs at a hyper inflated cost and I think that is something you should look at.

Setting the First season cap at 600-700CPs I think would be much more reasonable, especially if this is a cap you plan on keeping in place for longer than 30 days.

Xeven · October 2015

@Ezareth

Did you see this?

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I don't usually talk numbers, but here's some to chew on with regards to the number of champion points players have. The number of players that are going to be affected by the cap is very, very small.
Average CP on PC - 93

Average CP on PS4 - 46

Average CP on XB1 - 44

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The averages I posted were calculated from active accounts that have at least 1 VR character. (i.e. - can start earning CP) An account is only considered active if it has been logged into in the past 30 days and played the game for a period of time.

You and I are the minority. I want a balanced game with good fights and I thought you did too. This is a good thing! A 600 CP advantage is huge.

vanzan · October 2015

Question I have is, post season 1 will this formula actually allow people to catch-up?
Based on the average CP and this formula what do you expect the average person to earn?

Let me make some assumptions

Assume average CP earned per season is 258

Season 1 Cap 501
Average CP at End of Season 1 = 338
Gap = 163 CP

Season 2 Cap 1000
Average CP at End of Season 2 - 596 CP
Gap = 404

Season 3 Cap 1500
Average CP at End of Season 3 - 854 CP
Gap = 646

I would assume that catch-up would mean the "average" gap would be getting smaller not larger?

My numbers are all based on a few assumptions however I am trying to illustrate a point to ensure that it is considered.

Ty for your time.

olsborg · October 2015

Kinda feels like those ppl at 1k cp now, can sit there and laugh at us, because it will take us lowbies at 500 and less much longer time to actually catch up to him, maybe never, even if he basicly never earns another cp. The catchup mechanic is kinda working backwards here. Yea theres a cap now so you can only spend 501, but when the cap is then raised, those at 500 now will have earned much less then they normally should and that the top players earned at 500ish. So when the cap is reaised...well you know...

silky_soft · October 2015

Xeven wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich so this is true comparing new system to old system?

I'm 260 cp
It will cost me 7cp less to get to 338cp
It will then cost me 36cp more to get to from 338cp to 501cp
Which makes me 31cp worse off under the new system.

Assuming that I stop trying to perfect my rotation and counters actually pvp'ing to grind pve.

That point of view doesn't paint the whole picture. You will be far better off under the new system competitively, and this is only the first iteration of the formula.

If your math is correct, esentially you're forfitting 31 xp for a fair fight vs someone with 2000 cp.

With this system there is a soft cap around 35% lower then the actual cap.

assuming I'm going from softcap to softcap

1002 is 653
1502 is 960
2004 is 1261
2505 is 1559

Ezareth · October 2015

Xeven wrote: »

@Ezareth

Did you see this?

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I don't usually talk numbers, but here's some to chew on with regards to the number of champion points players have. The number of players that are going to be affected by the cap is very, very small.
Average CP on PC - 93

Average CP on PS4 - 46

Average CP on XB1 - 44

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The averages I posted were calculated from active accounts that have at least 1 VR character. (i.e. - can start earning CP) An account is only considered active if it has been logged into in the past 30 days and played the game for a period of time.

You and I are the minority. I want a balanced game with good fights and I thought you did too. This is a good thing!

Yes I saw that Xeven. I think this formula with the way it is designed will achieve that. Raising the Cap by 100-200 CPs will not impede that goal, but it will give some enjoyment to active players.

I've already resigned myself to from here on out earning champion points at an increased cost which is fine by me for a player in the top 10% or so. I just want to be able to continue to have a sense of progression as I move (much slower) each season towards the cap.

The way this system is designed once the cap is moved a couple of times it will once again free up me and many others around my CP level, but we have to wait until that point in time which is what I'm arguing against.

Ezareth · October 2015

vanzan wrote: »

Question I have is, post season 1 will this formula actually allow people to catch-up?
Based on the average CP and this formula what do you expect the average person to earn?

Let me make some assumptions

Assume average CP earned per season is 258

Season 1 Cap 501
Average CP at End of Season 1 = 338
Gap = 163 CP

Season 2 Cap 1000
Average CP at End of Season 2 - 596 CP
Gap = 404

Season 3 Cap 1500
Average CP at End of Season 3 - 854 CP
Gap = 646

I would assume that catch-up would mean the "average" gap would be getting smaller not larger?

My numbers are all based on a few assumptions however I am trying to illustrate a point to ensure that it is considered.

Ty for your time.

Yes and no.

This formula will not allow players who are extremely casual a chance to "catch up" to players who are hard core or extremely active.

It *will* however allow players who are new to the game and extremely active a chance to "Catch up" to players who are past the cap today which I think is the intended design.

Additionally players who are semi-casual or fairly active but not totally into XP gaining activities will gain CPs at a drastically increase rate for the remainder of their time in ESO which is also a plus.

NewBlacksmurf · October 2015

Just keep it simple...you're going to end up creating more problems than what you hope to fix...

-Keep the Cap at 501 (until the next wave)
-Keep the exp required for each where it is now (not PTS but live as of 10/7/15)
-apply a permanent enlightenment bonus for anyone less than 400 CPs
-use enlightenment at largely increased rates so if someone is below 100, maybe they get a 300% boost, if over 100 but below 200 they get a 250% - 200% boost, if above 200 but below 300 give a 200% - 150% boost and from 300 - 400 give a 150% - 100% boost, and 400 - 499 maybe a 100% to 50% boost but once you hit 500, there should be no enlightenment boost just a normal bonus and the same exp rates.

I have no idea why they are making this harder than it needs to be