Champion System Catch-up Mechanic

zornyan

Suru wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I think this is a mistake as it makes things very odd for many players. Enlightenment should be a static amount given per day, otherwise it is very unbalanced at both ends of the sprectum.

@Ezareth - Misspoke..Enlightenment hasn't been touched and works as it currently does on Live. At a high level, while a player is logged off Enlightenment, if valid to be earned, accrues X enlightenment at a frequency. Neither the amount nor the frequency has been changed from what is currently on Live. Currently, and subject to change without notice to balance the System, there is no plan to touch Enlightenment. If we do change it, we'll update this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

How does enlightenment work for above cap players?

For instance how much exp would someone at 800 cp need for their next cp?

For example if 800-801 took 2 million exp, would it be 2 million minus 300k?

Or would one cp simply take 100k exp to earn?

Likewise for someone at 10cp, how would enlightenment work for them? As it would only take say 50k exp, would it lower that value down even more? Or just provide no bonus until it's over 100k per cp required?

Im at over 900 on PTS, it takes 3 million for me. A friend is 750 and requires 2.4 million.

So it's simply taking 300k away from your required xp?

How does this work for sub 100k xp required cp's when very low on the scale?

AlnilamE

I assume that it works as my calculation. That is, someone who just hit V1 will get 10 CP with their first day of enlightenment (100k x 4)

silky_soft

@ZOS_RyanRuzich the problem everyone is seeing. Is that you are not scaling farmers back and penalizing the rest of us.

Why not have the catchup till the soft cap and then keep it at 400k till 2000 or whatever salty is at? Then use your penalty system. We asked for a hard cap or a catch up. At no stage did we ask for a penalty.

This would have been great system if it was implemented at the start.

Also my other post that the guy said 210 instead of 240. People will be worse of. I'll make a calculator to show people in general chat how much do they stand to lose from this first cap if they continued to play at the same rate.

k2blader

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I feel that it should never require more than 400,000 XP to earn a CP. Making it require millions of XP to earn a CP that other players got for only 400,000 XP? That feels like a reward to the grinders and exploiters who got us in this position in the first place! When the CP cap jumps to 600 or 750 or whatever, they will already be there. They will have access to CP totals that are borderline impossible for anyone else to reach now. So they will have an advantage almost grandfathered in, especially every time the cap is increased, for a long time to come.

I totally missed that yesterday when I was glancing over this.

Yes, at 338 CPs the XP required should FLATLINE at 400,000 XP.

It doesn't make any sense to increase the XP per CP beyond 400k. I think that's why I completely missed it; because, why in the world would the mechanic include something that doesn't make any sense? My bad.

k2blader

zornyan wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

@Ezareth

Did you see this?

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I don't usually talk numbers, but here's some to chew on with regards to the number of champion points players have. The number of players that are going to be affected by the cap is very, very small.

• Average CP on PC - 93
• Average CP on PS4 - 46
• Average CP on XB1 - 44

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The averages I posted were calculated from active accounts that have at least 1 VR character. (i.e. - can start earning CP) An account is only considered active if it has been logged into in the past 30 days and played the game for a period of time.

You and I are the minority. I want a balanced game with good fights and I thought you did too. This is a good thing! A 600 CP advantage is huge.

As I've said in multiple times, cp's won't change that. I can faceroll 6 people at once, with 100 cp, I can still gank people and insta gib them with my nightblade, even against people with several hundred cp, hell look at sypher, 300 cp and there's a video of him beat 20! Yes 20 players by himself...

Cps are not the issue.

Mmhm, post your vids and we can all see you "facerolling 6 people at once"?

[edit]
Wanted to add I know Ezareth can, along with Cinnamon. So just curious who the f you are and would like to see your vids. I have this dislike for folks who post like you, js.
[edit2]
The proof of the pudding! (Thanks to a kind person for making me google and use this more properly :-)

AlnilamE

I really don't think there needs to be a penalty. Put in the catch-up formula until the point where a CP costs 400k again. Particularly if you keep enlightenment at 100k/day which will allow players who newly hit V1 to get a fair number of CP over a relatively short period of time.

Keep the cap, but let people keep earning CP at the normal rate above the cap. Nobody is going to spend their time grinding for CP they can't use for at least 3 months. Let whoever it is that has 2000CP keep earning them at the normal rate too. They won't be using them for two years, or whatever, so what does it matter?

Keeping the catch-up formula (which I think is fine right now), and adjusting it when the cap is raised, while leaving CP gain for the rest of us as it is now will allow us to keep enjoying the game by doing our thing without a huge XP penalty in case we have enough time to play that we hit the cap.

Enodoc

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I think this is a mistake as it makes things very odd for many players. Enlightenment should be a static amount given per day, otherwise it is very unbalanced at both ends of the sprectum.

@Ezareth - Misspoke..Enlightenment hasn't been touched and works as it currently does on Live. At a high level, while a player is logged off Enlightenment, if valid to be earned, accrues X enlightenment at a frequency. Neither the amount nor the frequency has been changed from what is currently on Live. Currently, and subject to change without notice to balance the System, there is no plan to touch Enlightenment. If we do change it, we'll update this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

@ZOS_RyanRuzich So does that mean it's still 400,000 XP of enlightenment for 100,000 XP earned for each day?

Ezareth

Enodoc wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I think this is a mistake as it makes things very odd for many players. Enlightenment should be a static amount given per day, otherwise it is very unbalanced at both ends of the sprectum.

@Ezareth - Misspoke..Enlightenment hasn't been touched and works as it currently does on Live. At a high level, while a player is logged off Enlightenment, if valid to be earned, accrues X enlightenment at a frequency. Neither the amount nor the frequency has been changed from what is currently on Live. Currently, and subject to change without notice to balance the System, there is no plan to touch Enlightenment. If we do change it, we'll update this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

@ZOS_RyanRuzich So does that mean it's still 400,000 XP of enlightenment for 100,000 XP earned for each day?

The number would actually be 300k of enlightenment, the 100k you earn.

Garwulf

Whilst the cap is fair for most people (you need to have really to have been a points grinder or exploiter to have much more than 501) I find it essentially victimisation to make it harder to get to the cap especially for those who are currently above 338. And no I am not yet at 338 points.
Zos has made this game easier and easier over time. VR levels are now so easy compared to what it was when the game was originally released and monsters nerfed and nerfed again. I cannot see why we need so drastic a change between 300 and 501 points. Why not have the original system to 501 points cap and a boost to new players to get them on the hard road we who have been here since Beta. (inline with Zos' habit of making this game easier nad easier)
The New system still rewards the previous grinders and exploiters and victimises the rest of us for Zos' poor implemention of the champion system.

Not A happy player.

nimander99

I don't understand why they didn't just remove CP effect from PVP and leave the PVE system intact... a whole bunch of math and programming, messing with a system for no reason IMHO.

And what happens when we are all close to or at 501 then the cap is raised? Do we go back to 400k per point or is everyone sped up until they get close to new cap then its rtard town all over again?

Wollust

nimander99 wrote: »

I don't understand why they didn't just remove CP effect from PVP and leave the PVE system intact... a whole bunch of math and programming, messing with a system for no reason IMHO.

And what happens when we are all close to or at 501 then the cap is raised? Do we go back to 400k per point or is everyone sped up until they get close to new cap then its rtard town all over again?

You didn't bother reading the formula did you?

Yattaq

nimander99 wrote: »

I don't understand why they didn't just remove CP effect from PVP and leave the PVE system intact... a whole bunch of math and programming, messing with a system for no reason IMHO.

Because they need to be able to balance pve content too.

Anhedonie

You just had to set a cap. There was no need to touch amount of xp required. Ffs ZO$, just leave that be the way it is now - 400k xp per point.

FENGRUSH

I am very disappointed in this solution.

The ceiling is too low. The catchup mechanic should indeed be very drastic so new players can go from 0-150CP very quickly (5x), and start cutting it down to 4x, 3x, 2x until they hit the rough area youd like. I didnt expect the cap to be below 700-800 honestly.

Keep in mind 500 is until 'next season', so we could be sitting there for 3 months or more, whatever that is.

From a financial standpoint - you will likely lose subs from your dedicated base, not because they are mad at you, but because you have simply taken away one of the reasons for them to sub. I am a sub, I have stored up a lot of crowns I havent spent on anything. I can cancel my sub, buy a bear, buy Orsinium and IC patch and be a happy camper. Why wouldnt I? Again, this isnt to spite you, but you are literally taking out the long term mechanic of CP for me and Ive never gone and farmed, I just login - pvp and make roughly 2 CP a day. This is a bad solution and Im not going to fight in this thread very much because I feel the decision has already been made.

Ezareth

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I am very disappointed in this solution.

The ceiling is too low. The catchup mechanic should indeed be very drastic so new players can go from 0-150CP very quickly (5x), and start cutting it down to 4x, 3x, 2x until they hit the rough area youd like. I didnt expect the cap to be below 700-800 honestly.

Keep in mind 500 is until 'next season', so we could be sitting there for 3 months or more, whatever that is.

From a financial standpoint - you will likely lose subs from your dedicated base, not because they are mad at you, but because you have simply taken away one of the reasons for them to sub. I am a sub, I have stored up a lot of crowns I havent spent on anything. I can cancel my sub, buy a bear, buy Orsinium and IC patch and be a happy camper. Why wouldnt I? Again, this isnt to spite you, but you are literally taking out the long term mechanic of CP for me and Ive never gone and farmed, I just login - pvp and make roughly 2 CP a day. This is a bad solution and Im not going to fight in this thread very much because I feel the decision has already been made.

Pretty much exactly how I feel as well and I'm going to be impacted by this much less than you and most of my friends.

ColtPython

Ultimately, it will be MUCH easier for a new player to get to the cap compared to the amount of exp it cost me to get to the cap. In total, it will take a new player nearly 48M less exp to get to 501 than myself. I like the formula but I think the max exp per CP should cap at 400k. This includes the ridiculous x3 multiplier after the cap. I do not think there is a need to slow down players from earning CP that they cannot spend. The hard cap is the slow down. I agree that this punishes the long term loyal player as I never grind CP, I just play. I will be at the cap about the time that it is implemented. At this point, with the x3 multiplier, I fell like I need to spend the rest of my time grinding CP until the implementation. I recently canceled my membership for reasons like this catering to the new players and dismissing the long time subscribers. There used to be loyalty rewards for those of us that have been around subbing for months. Like a previous poster I have enough crowns to buy Orsimum, IC, and probably some other items but I do not have reason to continue my membership.

ZOS current formula:
=IF( Total Points >=Cap,((( Total Points / (Cap ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000)*3,(( Total Points / (Cap ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000)

I think this is more than fair and allows the new players to catch up even faster without ending my progression.
=IF(((( Total Points /( Cap^0.95))+0.08)*400000)>=400000,400000,(( Total Points /( Cap^0.95))+0.08)*400000)

Currently, the proposed solution will require 48M less exp to go from 0 to 501. Capping the max at required at each CP level will require the above formula is 68M less and does not tripple after the cap.

I would be happy with this compromise well:
=(( Total Points / (Cap ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000)
I think this one works without a cap. But, I'm sure you won't be removing the cap. Basically, just no x3 multiplier.

Final thought:
It is really too bad we have to do all of this because in my experience the champion system has been the best part of playing the game. A little more progression for doing things. I always thought there should be a catch up and maybe a little slow down but never a cap. In my guild, we like to celebrate a CP earned! Its one of the more fun things to get as a bonus to running dungeons, earning achievements, and an incentive to level another character. My wife even sings a CP song when she earns one!

Ezareth

ColtPython wrote: »

Final thought:
It is really too bad we have to do all of this because in my experience the champion system has been the best part of playing the game. A little more progression for doing things. I always thought there should be a catch up and maybe a little slow down but never a cap. In my guild, we like to celebrate a CP earned! Its one of the more fun things to get as a bonus to running dungeons, earning achievements, and an incentive to level another character. My wife even sings a CP song when she earns one!

The issue many people aren't really considering in their proposals for modifying the formula is human behavior.

The issue with a seasonal cap with a flat progression system (never increasing cost) is many players will rush to the cap to achieve maximum power as quickly as possible. The number of players who will be at the seasonal cap at some point during the season with a flat progression system will be much larger than the one that gradually increases in cost once you hit the 2/3rds mark.

The reason there must be *some* penalty after the cap is much the same. Let's say we're in season one and you're at CP cap and there is a flat 400K per CP still and you hear in one month the Cap is being raised to 700 CPs. What are you going to ensure you have done *before* that point in time? Grind CPs until you're at Cap again. This will make the players who are at cap feel the need to grind until they're at the next seasonal cap before it is even in place! We are seeing just this right now with the players in the 400CP range (including myself). We all feel a need to grind CPs to hit 501 before November 2nd rolls around so we don't have to face that increasing penalty and ensure we're at maximum power for the longest time. We're also dooming ourselves to losing any sense of progression for the duration of the season because of this. However, with the penalty in place, it is unlikely we're going to earn enough CPs to hit the next cap before it is released!


These "penalties" are put in place so that the goals of the champion system can remain. As many players as possible will continue to feel a sense of "Progression" through the course of the season. Differentiation will remain, a small percentage of players will be a CP cap each season, a much larger portion will be in the top 1/3 and the largest portion of the player based will be in the middle 1/3rd of the cap.

I think it would be pretty boring to have a system where all of the players quickly hit the seasonal cap each time it is released. You may as well just scrap the CP system altogether and just bump VR levels every couple of months again.

This all closely follows Tax modeling around human behavior.

AlnilamE

I understand what you are saying, but you have to consider a few things:

1. The power difference between the "soft cap" of 338 and the "hard cap" of 501 is not that great. It's far more important to have newer players accumulate CP at a faster rate until they get to the soft cap.
2. People are considering rushing now because there will be a penalty, not because there will be a cap.
3. If someone is at the new cap already when new content is released, what does that matter?
4. Penalizing people for being above the soft cap and in particular penalizing them with a x3 multiplier is a huge disincentive to playing. I mean, would they rather have people who are between the soft cap and the hard cap to play a bit more because they have a (relatively) short-term goal of getting to the cap, or just stop playing between now and when the cap is raised so they don't have to deal with penalties anymore?

Because for those of us that play the game organically and are happy when we get a champion point in as we go about our day (CP earned while unlocking chests are the best!), it feels like we will be penalized, particularly in instances where XP gain is unique, like questing and exploration).

And that is a huge disincentive to playing. Seriously, I've played since launch. I've never run out of things to do, because I take my time and I have varied interests, but when I first read about this, I felt completely discouraged from playing.

silky_soft

Even from a business point of view this formula is bad. No one will by xp scrolls, ambrosia will become worthless. No one will make an effort to increase past soft cap because they know Methuselah only had to earn 400k per point to get 2000.

pmn100b16_ESO

The x3 multiplier is there to prevent people being at or near cap everytime they raise it. Coupled with the catchup system, they're attempting to bunch their playerbase into a narrower band of CPs, which I guess helps balance their newly designed content, along with balancing pvp.

There are of course going to be people at the 501 cap already and they are complaining about being penalised because of the x3 multiplier. But when the second cap arrives, the x3 penalty will be lifted and if all goes to plan, you will barely hit this cap before its raised again. Repeat for each cap raise and for most people you should find a continued progression of CP earning similar to how its working on live, with maybe a brief pause at cap for some of the more regular players. Its only the current cap of 501 some people are going to find themselves stuck at for a while and 'penalised' with the x3 multiplier.

Shadow-Fighter

Catch-up Mechanic

... once we raise the cap, the values will return to normal.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/de/discussion/comment/2332448/#Comment_2332448

Ezareth

AlnilamE wrote: »

I understand what you are saying, but you have to consider a few things:

1. The power difference between the "soft cap" of 338 and the "hard cap" of 501 is not that great. It's far more important to have newer players accumulate CP at a faster rate until they get to the soft cap.
2. People are considering rushing now because there will be a penalty, not because there will be a cap.
3. If someone is at the new cap already when new content is released, what does that matter?
4. Penalizing people for being above the soft cap and in particular penalizing them with a x3 multiplier is a huge disincentive to playing. I mean, would they rather have people who are between the soft cap and the hard cap to play a bit more because they have a (relatively) short-term goal of getting to the cap, or just stop playing between now and when the cap is raised so they don't have to deal with penalties anymore?

Because for those of us that play the game organically and are happy when we get a champion point in as we go about our day (CP earned while unlocking chests are the best!), it feels like we will be penalized, particularly in instances where XP gain is unique, like questing and exploration).

And that is a huge disincentive to playing. Seriously, I've played since launch. I've never run out of things to do, because I take my time and I have varied interests, but when I first read about this, I felt completely discouraged from playing.

If you're replying to me:

1) The soft cap to me isn't about a about a power difference, but giving people a sense of progression for as long as possible (which yes includes a power difference even if minimal). Giving newer players the ability to catch up is solution addressing the power difference issue

2) People are rushing now because of the penalty in many cases yes but they also haven't really considered the penalty that awaits them at cap of 3X. This means that every experience point I earn right now to save me 30-44% a penalty is actually being taxed at 66% with an even greater penalty. The only reason I want to be at 501 CPs at the release of Osrinium is so that I'll have the maximum power possible to clear Maelstrom Arena to get the Gear I want from there. I'm sure you'll find that many others are thinking along those lines as well. I'm not looking forward to spending the next who knows however many months sitting at CP cap.

3) Yes it does because it eliminates the players sense of progression for the duration of their time at cap. They get to see the majority of other players all catching up to them and improving their characters and their character remains unchanged until the cap is raised. That's the whole scenario that the design of this formula is meant to prevent. (The up to 44% Softcap "penalty")

4. IMO The hard cap penalty is a long term plan. As people play an entire season at hard cap they will realize that grinding CPs really isn't going to help them in the future and that normal playing will get them to the hard cap each season and make that time playing enjoyable. Most grinders don't enjoy grinding, but they do enjoy the sense of progression that grinding brings.

I think the disincentive to play is there regardless of the penalty for those players at the cap. That's the major issue with the cap period, and there is no way to eliminate that with the implementation of the cap (unless they institute an alternate reward system for "Flavor" items or crowns or something for experience gained over the cap)

Ezareth

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

The x3 multiplier is there to prevent people being at or near cap everytime they raise it. Coupled with the catchup system, they're attempting to bunch their playerbase into a narrower band of CPs, which I guess helps balance their newly designed content, along with balancing pvp.

There are of course going to be people at the 501 cap already and they are complaining about being penalised because of the x3 multiplier. But when the second cap arrives, the x3 penalty will be lifted and if all goes to plan, you will barely hit this cap before its raised again. Repeat for each cap raise and for most people you should find a continued progression of CP earning similar to how its working on live, with maybe a brief pause at cap for some of the more regular players. Its only the current cap of 501 some people are going to find themselves stuck at for a while and 'penalised' with the x3 multiplier.

Pretty much exactly what I've been saying. The design of this is pretty obvious when you consider it.

The unknowns are the frequency and amount that they increase the cap by.

Mcnick

Xeven wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

You forgot to triple it...

Besides if you check the other thread people have been posting up numbers of which they require for next cp, and people over 500 are already needing over a million, and people at 700+ are into several million per cp.

So especially you're happy to have a rough number of 2-3 million per cp for anyone that remotely played the game since releaae?

That's what the catch up system is supposed to do.

i havent been playing since release i put real hard work into the game im at 436 its takes over 500k exp to get ea cp and the cap is 501? hows this make since its harder for me to get to the current cap now if its supposed to be catch up mechanic? if it was a catch up mechanic their would be no increase on exp you need for ea cp until you get to 501 instead they made my grind hard to get to the cap at 501.... im upset why make it harder for the people that were actually catching up? i used no exploit or anything just hard work... and now their making me work even harder to get to 501... why?

Mcnick

but this is obviously to appease the people that will never catch up anyways and now give serious fairly new players a real chance to catch up ever....

James-Wayne

It's too punishing for players currently WAY under the CP cap because under this new system they will never reach the 501cp amount before the next season (not that you have said how long the season is for). The players that don't play everyday or the new casual players will still find themselves behind with this when facing someone with the 501CP cap, the hardcore players who have grinded them way to the top will not have a issue with this system because they spend a lot of time playing.

I believe there should only be a penalty to players over the cap, make it easier for everyone to reach the cap so the next time the season starts everyone is on the same playing field or at least has a chance otherwise next season those people will be even further behind.

Ezareth

Mcnick wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

You forgot to triple it...

Besides if you check the other thread people have been posting up numbers of which they require for next cp, and people over 500 are already needing over a million, and people at 700+ are into several million per cp.

So especially you're happy to have a rough number of 2-3 million per cp for anyone that remotely played the game since releaae?

That's what the catch up system is supposed to do.

i havent been playing since release i put real hard work into the game im at 436 its takes over 500k exp to get ea cp and the cap is 501? hows this make since its harder for me to get to the current cap now if its supposed to be catch up mechanic? if it was a catch up mechanic their would be no increase on exp you need for ea cp until you get to 501 instead they made my grind hard to get to the cap at 501.... im upset why make it harder for the people that were actually catching up? i used no exploit or anything just hard work... and now their making me work even harder to get to 501... why?

You actually will catch up to them because while you're paying up to a 41% penalty until you hit 501 CPs they're paying at least a 341% penalty for every one they earn. It's hard to grasp for many people but your actually in the best position possible.

James-Wayne

Ezareth wrote: »

Mcnick wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

You forgot to triple it...

Besides if you check the other thread people have been posting up numbers of which they require for next cp, and people over 500 are already needing over a million, and people at 700+ are into several million per cp.

So especially you're happy to have a rough number of 2-3 million per cp for anyone that remotely played the game since releaae?

That's what the catch up system is supposed to do.

i havent been playing since release i put real hard work into the game im at 436 its takes over 500k exp to get ea cp and the cap is 501? hows this make since its harder for me to get to the current cap now if its supposed to be catch up mechanic? if it was a catch up mechanic their would be no increase on exp you need for ea cp until you get to 501 instead they made my grind hard to get to the cap at 501.... im upset why make it harder for the people that were actually catching up? i used no exploit or anything just hard work... and now their making me work even harder to get to 501... why?

You actually will catch up to them because while you're paying up to a 41% penalty until you hit 501 CPs they're paying at least a 341% penalty for every one they earn. It's hard to grasp for many people but your actually in the best position possible.

It's easier to get to 501 for people who haven't but if you don't play often enough you will still never catch anyone... I guess we need to see how long the season will last thou.

I think the easiest way to get to that 501 CP cap when it launches will be to complete the main quests through VR Silver and Gold seeing they give the largest chunk of VP. For those people with only one character probably best to start another character so you can complete those quests again and gain fast CP.

Huggalump

There is still a hard cap in pvp, correct? Everyone over 501 will only be able to use 501 in pvp?

AlnilamE

Huggalump wrote: »

There is still a hard cap in pvp, correct? Everyone over 501 will only be able to use 501 in pvp?

And PvE. The cap is universal until it's raised.

Mcnick wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

You forgot to triple it...

Besides if you check the other thread people have been posting up numbers of which they require for next cp, and people over 500 are already needing over a million, and people at 700+ are into several million per cp.

So especially you're happy to have a rough number of 2-3 million per cp for anyone that remotely played the game since releaae?

That's what the catch up system is supposed to do.

i havent been playing since release i put real hard work into the game im at 436 its takes over 500k exp to get ea cp and the cap is 501? hows this make since its harder for me to get to the current cap now if its supposed to be catch up mechanic? if it was a catch up mechanic their would be no increase on exp you need for ea cp until you get to 501 instead they made my grind hard to get to the cap at 501.... im upset why make it harder for the people that were actually catching up? i used no exploit or anything just hard work... and now their making me work even harder to get to 501... why?

Well, you are one of the people newer players have to catch up to. They are not worried about the handful of people who are above the cap so much as they are about newer players catching up to people like us who are between the "soft" cap of 300 and the "hard" cap of 501.

But I disagree that there has to be a penalty.