Champion System Catch-up Mechanic

Ezareth · October 2015

silky_soft wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

vanzan wrote: »

Question I have is, post season 1 will this formula actually allow people to catch-up?
Based on the average CP and this formula what do you expect the average person to earn?

Let me make some assumptions

Assume average CP earned per season is 258

Season 1 Cap 501
Average CP at End of Season 1 = 338
Gap = 163 CP

Season 2 Cap 1000
Average CP at End of Season 2 - 596 CP
Gap = 404

Season 3 Cap 1500
Average CP at End of Season 3 - 854 CP
Gap = 646

I would assume that catch-up would mean the "average" gap would be getting smaller not larger?

My numbers are all based on a few assumptions however I am trying to illustrate a point to ensure that it is considered.

Ty for your time.

Um no if you look at the average of 93CP in the 240 days since Champion system launched to Nov 2 then you get ~.44CP per day. If players keep earning XP at the same rate with the catch up system in place then the average will go up 83CP in 90 days.
On the other end, people with 501+ CP will only gain between 42-45 CP in 90 days.

This is complicated math because you have to solve for the upper value of when the the two integrals is equal. If you want to see the math I can post it, but unless you understand integral calculus it won't help.

If you consider that this is basically a doubling of the average CP in only the last ~25% of the time since Champion system launched it seems to be a very effective curve to close the gap.

The real question is how much they will increase the cap per season, because the higher you raise the cap, the less effective the catch-up mechanic becomes.

In other words people above the cap will eventually fall below it, people below the cap but above the 1CP per day rate will have a hard time keeping up with the cap and people below the 1CP per day rate will rocket up quickly.
Seems exactly what was intended.

I think you need a redbull mate, 93cp in 240 days is 0.3875cp/day.
Which is 155,000xp/day.
In turn will earn you 13,950,000xp in 90 days.
Which under new system will take you to 171cp, which is not 83cp but in fact 78cp increase.
Old system would earn 34cp. Increase of 44.

We'll use 501 as an example. They got 75 for free and earned the rest. (can't remeber the exact number people got for free, I wasn't one of them).
Brings it to 426 earned @ a rate of 1.775cp/day over 240 days.
Which is 170,400,000xp or 710000xp/day.
In the new system would net you in 90 days 63,900,000xp or 35cp. Bringing you to a total of 536cp.
Old system would earn 159cp. Loss of 124cp

If you started at 601, 75 free.
526 earned @ 2.19167/day or 876666.67xp/day.
78,900,000xp in 90 days or a further 36cp to make you 637cp.
Old system would earn 197cp. Loss of 162cp

Or if you want to take our old mate salty with say 2000cp.
75 free, 1925 earned @ 8.0234/day or 3,208,333.34xp/day.
288,750,000xp in 90 days or a further 125cp to make old mate salty 2042cp.
In the old system would make him 2721cp. So you can see why he is sad with a loss of 679cp.

We'll do my cp for example. I started on 0, am on 260 now and will most likely be 270 max because playing right now for 'progression' is a waste of time. I'll just build up enlightenment to 14 days, have fun, smash face and die lots in pvp.
270 @ 1.125/day or 450,000xp/day.
40,500,000xp in 90 days or a further 104cp making me 374cp.
With the old system I will have only made 101 more cp. I stand to gain a massive 3cp over the previous system.

Did I calc that right this time @ZOS_RyanRuzich ?

TLDR BOLD

You forgot many things in your calculation like Enlightenment and Time.

If the cap is set to 501, you will have to have averaged 411,000 Experience per day to be at cap if you had a max Vet char at the launch of the champion system due to enlightenment. (I don't feel like doing the math again but trust me it's accurate).

True, if you're in the 300 range, getting to the cap is going to cost you more than it did the guys already at 501. However, even if you are paying an increased cost for those champion points, your increased cost is *nowhere* near the cost they are paying for every additional point since it is tripled and eventually you're going to catch up to them if you're playing equally.

A catchup mechanic is intended to allow new players the opportunity to catch up to *equivalent* older players. This system does that perfectly.

They also instituted a Cap which penalized players who were extremely active and /or grinding CPs for the past 7 months and made it so they are unable to keep their CP advantage over other players who played the game actively as it was intended.

These are two separate mechanics for two different purposes.

Personally, I feel the cap of 501 is a bit too low for *this point in time* but the formula is perfect and the cap itself can continue to be adjusted to a number that is appropriate.

zornyan · October 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

vanzan wrote: »

Question I have is, post season 1 will this formula actually allow people to catch-up?
Based on the average CP and this formula what do you expect the average person to earn?

Let me make some assumptions

Assume average CP earned per season is 258

Season 1 Cap 501
Average CP at End of Season 1 = 338
Gap = 163 CP

Season 2 Cap 1000
Average CP at End of Season 2 - 596 CP
Gap = 404

Season 3 Cap 1500
Average CP at End of Season 3 - 854 CP
Gap = 646

I would assume that catch-up would mean the "average" gap would be getting smaller not larger?

My numbers are all based on a few assumptions however I am trying to illustrate a point to ensure that it is considered.

Ty for your time.

Yes and no.

This formula will not allow players who are extremely casual a chance to "catch up" to players who are hard core or extremely active.

It *will* however allow players who are new to the game and extremely active a chance to "Catch up" to players who are past the cap today which I think is the intended design.

Additionally players who are semi-casual or fairly active but not totally into XP gaining activities will gain CPs at a drastically increase rate for the remainder of their time in ESO which is also a plus.

Not really, hardcore players will continue to earn exp and stuff anyway, but once you hit 338 cp to get to 50. It will require 15 million MORE exp than currently.

Meaning it will take those casual players. Several times longer to get anywhere near those hardcore players. That's quote literally the xp of 1-16 be ranks more than currently used.

Casual players will continue to remain at or below the "Soft cap" of 338. Which really when you think about it is the way we want it. The power difference between 501 CPs and 338 cps is not that large and each time the cap is raised the difference between the "Soft cap" and the "hard cap" as expressed in terms of actual power will shrink.

Let's consider what would happen with a player like me that joined today under this system however.

I would rapidly catch up to the soft cap and then slowly but surely start inching my way to the cap season after season. The guys who are already *at cap* have a 300%+ penalty to any future champion points they earn, as long they remain at the cap. I'm eventually going to catch up to those players (but never pass a player who is already ahead of me and continues to earn the same exp per day as me).

The 150 odd cp difference between the soft and hard cap is still a fair margain.

Put it like this. With 300 Co (so 100 per star) I could put a few points into spell crit to get 12% passive and bonus crit damage.

With 500 (so another 57 per star) I could chuck a load of points in thumatauge (sp?) And get another 20% bonus damage!

See what I mean? The people at cap will more than likely have on top of your cp's

20% more bonus damage
20% more healing recieved or armor bonus
20% more recovery or cost reduction.

So essentially they will have 3 20% (near enough) bonuses that you won't be able to.

Plus obviously the raw stat increases each point spent would give them in each star

CP5 · October 2015

Xeven wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich so this is true comparing new system to old system?

I'm 260 cp
It will cost me 7cp less to get to 338cp
It will then cost me 36cp more to get to from 338cp to 501cp
Which makes me 31cp worse off under the new system.

Assuming that I stop trying to perfect my rotation and counters actually pvp'ing to grind pve.

That point of view doesn't paint the whole picture. You will be far better off under the new system competitively, and this is only the first iteration of the formula.

If your math is correct, esentially you're forfitting 31 xp for a fair fight vs anyone with 1600+ cp.

It's so that you don't have a group of players who are always sitting at the next cp cap all the time.

AlnilamE · October 2015

Freeman wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

How is Enlightenment going to work after 2.2 hits Live?

I'm going to assume that it will still be 100k XP per day that are applied at a x4 rate. That makes sense as a catch up mechanic.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong @ZOS_RyanRuzich)

Using the handy spreadsheet that @Dominoid created (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14l_K_29Hyj4cjuCAcbCdeGBtLAMRjdbNz78zS6kTjZc/edit#gid=0) , we'd get the following for a newly minted V1 player that earns about 100k XP/day (ie, just enough to keep up with the enlightenment)

Day 1: 10 CP
Day 2: 8 CP (18 total)
Day 3: 7 CP (25 total)
Day 4: 7 CP (32 total)
Day 5: 5 CP (37 total)
Day 6: 5 CP (42 total)
Day 7: 5 CP (47 total)
Day 8: 5 CP (52 total)
Day 9: 4 CP (56 total)
Day 10: 4 CP (60 total)

Which in my mind is a reasonable way of enabling players to catch up quickly.

Emma_Overload · October 2015

This area in between 338 and 501 CP is a huge problem for me. This means that I'm going to have to use XP pots and grind non-stop between now and Orsinium launch if I want to beat the nerf.

The cap should be about taking pressure OFF players, not piling it on!

ZOS_RyanRuzich · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Can y'all also share your plans for increasing the CP cap? For example: time frame, amount adjusted, etc.

@Ishammael - Not at this time from this thread. This thread is more focused on the implementation and correctness rather than the plan going forward.

clikcb16_ESO wrote: »

Thanks for Clarification, and can we get more posts like these which give us the formulae for internal game calculations please.

@clikcb16_ESO - Perhaps ;-) No promises, timeline, etc.

clikcb16_ESO wrote: »

My suggested change is this.

((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.98)) + 0.08) * 400000

However, due to the way you have set out the formula, even with this change, anyone over champion rank 407 has to earn more XP per champion rank than people who are beyond the 501 cap now (or CP rank 337 with the original power of 0.95).

Assuming that the enlightenment system works off the same formula, granting 1 champion's ranks worth 'enlightened XP' per day, with a 12 day cap.

And assuming that we see 93 days of Orsinium before the next major DLC release.

A power of 0.99 requires: 68 campion ranks above 400k XP per rank, to hit the CP cap.
A power of 0.98 requires: 94 campion ranks above 400k XP per rank, to hit the CP cap.
A power of 0.97 requires: 119 campion ranks above 400k XP per rank, to hit the CP cap.
A power of 0.96 requires: 142 campion ranks above 400k XP per rank, to hit the CP cap.
A power of 0.95 requires: 164 campion ranks above 400k XP per rank, to hit the CP cap.

@clikcb16_ESO - We're looking into how we want to tweak both the .95 and 0.08 values, and finding a nice sweet spot if we adjust it. Love the post, it's been passed along.

Cously wrote: »

Thanks a lot for posting this and taking your time to answer the questions. It takes a lot of balls to do that, especially with a intelligent and demanding community as ours.

@Cously - Always a pleasure to post information to the community :-)

The Cap as implemented does, if I'm reading your post correct, accomplish the goal of forcing player choices as to which star to place their CP. As to the 1200 CP, the data doesn't point us to making the hard cap that high. We're constantly monitoring the data though.

ADarklore wrote: »

I do agree though that the XP requirements for CP shouldn't impact players as harshly until they reach closer to the 501 mark- but- it also depends a lot on how often ZOS plans to increase the CP cap.

@ADarklore - Just to reiterate from earlier, we're looking closely and taking player feedback on adjusting the formula's softcap and other mechanics.

Ezareth wrote: »

The goal of a "Catchup mechanic" isn't to completely negate the work done by players who committed themselves to the champion system by giving everyone the same CPs.

@Ezareth - That is one of the goals. :-)

Prizax wrote: »

Will enlightenment still grant 1 CP per day or no?

@Prizax - That is how it is currently implemented, but we are looking at the entire system.

ZOS_RyanRuzich · October 2015

silky_soft wrote: »

Did I calc that right this time @ZOS_RyanRuzich ?

@silky_soft - Seems to be more or less correct. To note: You only have one example below the cap. We also may adjust the softcap.

Enodoc wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Not sure if it's been stated anywhere yet, but how is Enlightenment factored into the new mechanics?

@Enodoc - It's currently unchanged, but subject to adjustment if we need to touch it to balance the system.

Ezareth · October 2015

zornyan wrote: »

The 150 odd cp difference between the soft and hard cap is still a fair margain.

Put it like this. With 300 Co (so 100 per star) I could put a few points into spell crit to get 12% passive and bonus crit damage.

With 500 (so another 57 per star) I could chuck a load of points in thumatauge (sp?) And get another 20% bonus damage!

See what I mean? The people at cap will more than likely have on top of your cp's

20% more bonus damage
20% more healing recieved or armor bonus
20% more recovery or cost reduction.

So essentially they will have 3 20% (near enough) bonuses that you won't be able to.

Plus obviously the raw stat increases each point spent would give them in each star

The different could be that large if someone placed them poorly sure, but that isn't a fault of the system it's the player.

Your first 100 points into the blue tree should be spent maxing your primary damage ability and nothing else. It's either Mighty, or Thaumaturge or Elemental Mastery. The damage you gain beyond those 100 points is rapidly diminsihed. Crit damage is actually horrible and only worth the first point placed in it until you max out most of your other damage increasing abilities.

Cost reduction champion points max out at 16%. not 20. 57 points per star isn't enough to give you close to that regardless.

There is a difference between 338 and 501, I'm not saying there isn't but the difference diminishes every time the hard (and soft) cap is raised since the effectiveness of champion points past 600 begins to rapidly diminish.

Ezareth · October 2015

AlnilamE wrote: »

Freeman wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

How is Enlightenment going to work after 2.2 hits Live?

I'm going to assume that it will still be 100k XP per day that are applied at a x4 rate. That makes sense as a catch up mechanic.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong @ZOS_RyanRuzich)

Using the handy spreadsheet that @Dominoid created (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14l_K_29Hyj4cjuCAcbCdeGBtLAMRjdbNz78zS6kTjZc/edit#gid=0) , we'd get the following for a newly minted V1 player that earns about 100k XP/day (ie, just enough to keep up with the enlightenment)

Day 1: 10 CP
Day 2: 8 CP (18 total)
Day 3: 7 CP (25 total)
Day 4: 7 CP (32 total)
Day 5: 5 CP (37 total)
Day 6: 5 CP (42 total)
Day 7: 5 CP (47 total)
Day 8: 5 CP (52 total)
Day 9: 4 CP (56 total)
Day 10: 4 CP (60 total)

Which in my mind is a reasonable way of enabling players to catch up quickly.

Enlightenment currenly gives you 300K exp bonus per day, not 1 CP per day. I think it should stay that way (some others far below the cap can probably tell you how it is working on PTS right now.

@Suru have you checked out PTS? If so have you noticed if you enlightenment is filling your CP bar or is only a fraction now per day?

Edit: It appears I'm wrong and it does in fact give 1CP per day of enlightenment. I'll make a post specifically on that.

fr33r4ng3r · October 2015

I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus. I'm at 273 CP right now and I don't see how I'd ever be able to catch up (with the 0.95 and 0.08 scale).

The soft cap is an interesting idea (and it is a reward for those that have more CP than the cap), I just think the soft cap needs to be much closer to the hard cap initially until we're all at the 2000+ CP mark and then the soft cap can be much lower than the hard cap again.

DaveMoeDee · October 2015

Xeven wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich so this is true comparing new system to old system?

I'm 260 cp
It will cost me 7cp less to get to 338cp
It will then cost me 36cp more to get to from 338cp to 501cp
Which makes me 31cp worse off under the new system.

Assuming that I stop trying to perfect my rotation and counters actually pvp'ing to grind pve.

That point of view doesn't paint the whole picture. You will be far better off under the new system competitively, and this is only the first iteration of the formula.

If your math is correct, esentially you're forfitting 31 xp for a fair fight vs anyone with 1600+ cp.

Mobs don't have CP, do they?

DaveMoeDee · October 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Just keep it simple...you're going to end up creating more problems than what you hope to fix...

-Keep the Cap at 501 (until the next wave)
-Keep the exp required for each where it is now (not PTS but live as of 10/7/15)
-apply a permanent enlightenment bonus for anyone less than 400 CPs
-use enlightenment at largely increased rates so if someone is below 100, maybe they get a 300% boost, if over 100 but below 200 they get a 250% - 200% boost, if above 200 but below 300 give a 200% - 150% boost and from 300 - 400 give a 150% - 100% boost, and 400 - 499 maybe a 100% to 50% boost but once you hit 500, there should be no enlightenment boost just a normal bonus and the same exp rates.

I have no idea why they are making this harder than it needs to be

Having tiers every 100 CP is actually more complicated than having a formula.

Ezareth · October 2015

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Prizax wrote: »

Will enlightenment still grant 1 CP per day or no?

@Prizax - That is how it is currently implemented, but we are looking at the entire system.

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

I think this is a mistake as it makes things very odd for many players. Enlightenment should be a static amount given per day, otherwise it is very unbalanced at both ends of the sprectum.

A player who grinded CPs to 1000+ will be getting 4 million points per day of enlightenment. That is going to be tough for any player to exhaust even them, and it really makes the penalty of 3x actually only 2x.

I think a static amount (currently 400K seems fine) is much more manageable for all players and that's a good number for around what an active player will earn in a day who isn't grinding exp.

DaveMoeDee · October 2015

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Prizax wrote: »

Will enlightenment still grant 1 CP per day or no?

@Prizax - That is how it is currently implemented, but we are looking at the entire system.

While I an only at 140 CP and will only benefit from the changes, I have some sympathy for those who worked hard for a lot of CP and have been drastically slowed down. It is good to know that they will still have enlightenment at least. More than gets rid of the x3 in the formula.

I think I might start saving enlightenment for the switch over. I'll just level non vet such that I get a full 15 days enlightenment stored for the lower CP requirements.

Hiero_Glyph · October 2015

AlnilamE wrote: »

Freeman wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

How is Enlightenment going to work after 2.2 hits Live?

I'm going to assume that it will still be 100k XP per day that are applied at a x4 rate. That makes sense as a catch up mechanic.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong @ZOS_RyanRuzich)

Using the handy spreadsheet that @Dominoid created (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14l_K_29Hyj4cjuCAcbCdeGBtLAMRjdbNz78zS6kTjZc/edit#gid=0) , we'd get the following for a newly minted V1 player that earns about 100k XP/day (ie, just enough to keep up with the enlightenment)

Day 1: 10 CP
Day 2: 8 CP (18 total)
Day 3: 7 CP (25 total)
Day 4: 7 CP (32 total)
Day 5: 5 CP (37 total)
Day 6: 5 CP (42 total)
Day 7: 5 CP (47 total)
Day 8: 5 CP (52 total)
Day 9: 4 CP (56 total)
Day 10: 4 CP (60 total)

Which in my mind is a reasonable way of enabling players to catch up quickly.

As a catchup mechanic goes I think just having the first 100k CP exp you earn multiplied by 4 would help players below cap catch up quickly. That being said, it has even less benefit to players above 338 CP since each CP costs over 400k and almost no benefit to players above the cap of 501 (as CP costs are tripled).

Perhaps enlightenment should become a separate measure that grants a bonus CP for the first 100k CP exp earned each day. This way new players can double dip by earning CP normally and when they hit 100k CP exp total for that day they get a bonus CP. Players above 338 would get 1 CP after their first 100k CP exp and still have that experience applied towards their next CP point.

Still, enlightenement will be the primary method that players above cap use to gain CP and I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not. I guess if it keeps them logging in to play at least once every two weeks that is a positive, right?

Ezareth · October 2015

fr33r4ng3r wrote: »

I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus. I'm at 273 CP right now and I don't see how I'd ever be able to catch up (with the 0.95 and 0.08 scale).

The soft cap is an interesting idea (and it is a reward for those that have more CP than the cap), I just think the soft cap needs to be much closer to the hard cap initially until we're all at the 2000+ CP mark and then the soft cap can be much lower than the hard cap again.

If you're at 273 CP right now you're going to be in a good place, even with the "Soft cap" on the horizon. For you as a semi-active player you'll likely continue to remain around to slightly above the softcap from season to season, and that's not a bad thing.

I hope everyone isn't thinking that this new system is going to give everyone easy access to the cap every season, because it shouldn't. It should just remove the barrier of entry from the CP system and make the hill to "Max seasonal CP power" much less steep for any player to climb.

Enodoc · October 2015

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Not sure if it's been stated anywhere yet, but how is Enlightenment factored into the new mechanics?

@Enodoc - It's currently unchanged, but subject to adjustment if we need to touch it to balance the system.

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Unchanged in which way? Does it still grant you 400,000 XP for 100,000 XP per day, or does it still give you the amount of XP needed for 1 CP per day (which would only be 41,805 XP for 10,451 XP if you were heading for CP #10)?

Hiero_Glyph · October 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Not sure if it's been stated anywhere yet, but how is Enlightenment factored into the new mechanics?

@Enodoc - It's currently unchanged, but subject to adjustment if we need to touch it to balance the system.

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Unchanged in which way? Does it still grant you 400,000 XP for 100,000 XP per day, or does it still give you the amount of XP needed for 1 CP per day (which would only be 41,805 XP for 10,451 XP if you were heading for CP #10)?

Similarly, when you hit vr1 and your first CP costs 1 exp, does it consume your enlightenment for that day?

Suru · October 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Freeman wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

How is Enlightenment going to work after 2.2 hits Live?

I'm going to assume that it will still be 100k XP per day that are applied at a x4 rate. That makes sense as a catch up mechanic.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong @ZOS_RyanRuzich)

Using the handy spreadsheet that @Dominoid created (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14l_K_29Hyj4cjuCAcbCdeGBtLAMRjdbNz78zS6kTjZc/edit#gid=0) , we'd get the following for a newly minted V1 player that earns about 100k XP/day (ie, just enough to keep up with the enlightenment)

Day 1: 10 CP
Day 2: 8 CP (18 total)
Day 3: 7 CP (25 total)
Day 4: 7 CP (32 total)
Day 5: 5 CP (37 total)
Day 6: 5 CP (42 total)
Day 7: 5 CP (47 total)
Day 8: 5 CP (52 total)
Day 9: 4 CP (56 total)
Day 10: 4 CP (60 total)

Which in my mind is a reasonable way of enabling players to catch up quickly.

Enlightenment currenly gives you 300K exp bonus per day, not 1 CP per day. I think it should stay that way (some others far below the cap can probably tell you how it is working on PTS right now.

@Suru have you checked out PTS? If so have you noticed if you enlightenment is filling your CP bar or is only a fraction now per day?

Edit: It appears I'm wrong and it does in fact give 1CP per day of enlightenment. I'll make a post specifically on that.

Even then, I dont know If I can grind out 800k XP for one CP during enlightenment, Ill just go to sleep since I recieve mine at 10 PM every night

thats like a whole days worth of play

fr33r4ng3r · October 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

fr33r4ng3r wrote: »

I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus. I'm at 273 CP right now and I don't see how I'd ever be able to catch up (with the 0.95 and 0.08 scale).

The soft cap is an interesting idea (and it is a reward for those that have more CP than the cap), I just think the soft cap needs to be much closer to the hard cap initially until we're all at the 2000+ CP mark and then the soft cap can be much lower than the hard cap again.

If you're at 273 CP right now you're going to be in a good place, even with the "Soft cap" on the horizon. For you as a semi-active player you'll likely continue to remain around to slightly above the softcap from season to season, and that's not a bad thing.

I hope everyone isn't thinking that this new system is going to give everyone easy access to the cap every season, because it shouldn't. It should just remove the barrier of entry from the CP system and make the hill to "Max seasonal CP power" much less steep for any player to climb.

To be clear, I'm all for the catch up mechanic, I just think the numbers are worth tweaking. Also, my wife would strongly disagree with "semi-active"

- I play every day, so I don't benefit much from enlightenment. I enjoy all aspects of this game (including crafting and trading - which don't offer an XP reward per se). The only thing I dislike is grinding. I also prefer the harder content which means I die (a lot) - and that means I get less XP overall. I hope this helps...

Xeven · October 2015

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich so this is true comparing new system to old system?

I'm 260 cp
It will cost me 7cp less to get to 338cp
It will then cost me 36cp more to get to from 338cp to 501cp
Which makes me 31cp worse off under the new system.

Assuming that I stop trying to perfect my rotation and counters actually pvp'ing to grind pve.

That point of view doesn't paint the whole picture. You will be far better off under the new system competitively, and this is only the first iteration of the formula.

If your math is correct, esentially you're forfitting 31 xp for a fair fight vs anyone with 1600+ cp.

Mobs don't have CP, do they?

This is a PvE point of view and no they don't however you will be competing with other players for leader boards and master weapons, in which case what I said was true:

You will be far better off under the new system competitively.

NativeJoe · October 2015

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Greetings all!

There have been several requests on the forums for an explanation of exactly how the Champion System Catch-up mechanic we’re introducing with the Orsinium patch works. We’re here to offer some details about how the system works on the PTS, and hopefully answer some of your questions. Please note: This thread is not to discuss the pros/cons of the system, but rather to pass on some information about how the system currently works to help you with testing, and assist us in spotting any inconsistencies or errors.

With the new system, the formula used to calculate the amount of XP needed to gain a single Champion Point is as follows:
((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula, and then tripled. (So, the XP you would need to earn 512 Champion Points is 589,807, which is then tripled to 1,769,421.)
For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 1XP is required.
We only triple the point values if you are over the current Champion Point cap—once we raise the cap, the values will return to normal.

The new catch-up mechanic, currently on PTS, is subject to change based on player feedback and data. We’ll be iterating on it as needed on the PTS—we’ll do our best to update this post if and when that happens.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
I don't usually talk numbers, but here's some to chew on with regards to the number of champion points players have. The number of players that are going to be affected by the cap is very, very small.

Average CP on PC - 93
Average CP on PS4 - 46
Average CP on XB1 - 44

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
The averages I posted were calculated from active accounts that have at least 1 VR character. (i.e. - can start earning CP) An account is only considered active if it has been logged into in the past 30 days and played the game for a period of time.

Please let us know if you have any questions!

This amount of transparency is EXACTLY what the community has been asking for!!!!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Reasons: This sheds light on your decisions so it's much easier to make peace with nerfs/buffs/game mechanics.
So even sour news can be swallowed a WHOLE lot easier

please repeat this alot more in the future!

Anyway. I'm of the opinion this will actually help the game alot more then anything else you guys have ever done. Getting players to that 360 cp point is ideal for everyone! dungeons will go smoother, resource management will be easier, and we're not going to be pwned in pvp based on CP alone. (which will relieve alot of frustration, and save players alot of hair pulling)

As for if it is working or not. it appears to be. I'm at 250 CP, and gained 4 CP just doing the normal maelstrom arena.

~I "think" I understand everyone elses point of views tho. Paying for experience scrolls and basically having all those purchases made pointless. Grinding for a years worth of zombies and cracked wood to be able to be a super powered monster and having that stripped away from you. Being able to solo molag bal and make crazy damage builds without the need of any resource management at all, and generally just being a god in any dungeon- the last player standing-the unkillable titan, etc

But this is an mmorpg, the balance between god hood and cannon fodder has to be maintained... and this goes a long ways towards maintaining the balance.

Also... it makes it easier for them to create content that is challenging to us. because they know the strengths they can expect out of characters.

So yes... the most elite of us will have to tuck back our egos and not be playing this game on the "toggle god mode", but "Think" about others...your also going to be seeing a huge increase in the "quality" of the game, and your teammates. so for the good of us all, I think the sacrifice you guys are making is necessary and timely.

Tyr · October 2015

silky_soft wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

vanzan wrote: »

Question I have is, post season 1 will this formula actually allow people to catch-up?
Based on the average CP and this formula what do you expect the average person to earn?

Let me make some assumptions

Assume average CP earned per season is 258

Season 1 Cap 501
Average CP at End of Season 1 = 338
Gap = 163 CP

Season 2 Cap 1000
Average CP at End of Season 2 - 596 CP
Gap = 404

Season 3 Cap 1500
Average CP at End of Season 3 - 854 CP
Gap = 646

I would assume that catch-up would mean the "average" gap would be getting smaller not larger?

My numbers are all based on a few assumptions however I am trying to illustrate a point to ensure that it is considered.

Ty for your time.

Um no if you look at the average of 93CP in the 240 days since Champion system launched to Nov 2 then you get ~.44CP per day. If players keep earning XP at the same rate with the catch up system in place then the average will go up 83CP in 90 days.
On the other end, people with 501+ CP will only gain between 42-45 CP in 90 days.

This is complicated math because you have to solve for the upper value of when the the two integrals is equal. If you want to see the math I can post it, but unless you understand integral calculus it won't help.

If you consider that this is basically a doubling of the average CP in only the last ~25% of the time since Champion system launched it seems to be a very effective curve to close the gap.

The real question is how much they will increase the cap per season, because the higher you raise the cap, the less effective the catch-up mechanic becomes.

In other words people above the cap will eventually fall below it, people below the cap but above the 1CP per day rate will have a hard time keeping up with the cap and people below the 1CP per day rate will rocket up quickly.
Seems exactly what was intended.

I think you need a redbull mate, 93cp in 240 days is 0.3875cp/day.
Which is 155,000xp/day.
In turn will earn you 13,950,000xp in 90 days.
Which under new system will take you to 171cp, which is not 83cp but in fact 78cp increase.
Old system would earn 34cp. Increase of 44.

We'll use 501 as an example. They got 75 for free and earned the rest. (can't remeber the exact number people got for free, I wasn't one of them).
Brings it to 426 earned @ a rate of 1.775cp/day over 240 days.
Which is 170,400,000xp or 710000xp/day.
In the new system would net you in 90 days 63,900,000xp or 35cp. Bringing you to a total of 536cp.
Old system would earn 159cp. Loss of 124cp

If you started at 601, 75 free.
526 earned @ 2.19167/day or 876666.67xp/day.
78,900,000xp in 90 days or a further 36cp to make you 637cp.
Old system would earn 197cp. Loss of 162cp

Or if you want to take our old mate salty with say 2000cp.
75 free, 1925 earned @ 8.0234/day or 3,208,333.34xp/day.
288,750,000xp in 90 days or a further 125cp to make old mate salty 2042cp.
In the old system would make him 2721cp. So you can see why he is sad with a loss of 679cp.

We'll do my cp for example. I started on 0, am on 260 now and will most likely be 270 max because playing right now for 'progression' is a waste of time. I'll just build up enlightenment to 14 days, have fun, smash face and die lots in pvp.
270 @ 1.125/day or 450,000xp/day.
40,500,000xp in 90 days or a further 104cp making me 374cp.
With the old system I will have only made 101 more cp. I stand to gain a massive 3cp over the previous system.

Did I calc that right this time @ZOS_RyanRuzich ?

TLDR BOLD

It had only been 210 days when they gave us the 93 figure. The rest of your math is off because of that.
My fault for not clarifying actually, because I did write 240 even though I did the math for 210 correctly.

Ezareth · October 2015

Suru wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Freeman wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

How is Enlightenment going to work after 2.2 hits Live?

I'm going to assume that it will still be 100k XP per day that are applied at a x4 rate. That makes sense as a catch up mechanic.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong @ZOS_RyanRuzich)

Using the handy spreadsheet that @Dominoid created (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14l_K_29Hyj4cjuCAcbCdeGBtLAMRjdbNz78zS6kTjZc/edit#gid=0) , we'd get the following for a newly minted V1 player that earns about 100k XP/day (ie, just enough to keep up with the enlightenment)

Day 1: 10 CP
Day 2: 8 CP (18 total)
Day 3: 7 CP (25 total)
Day 4: 7 CP (32 total)
Day 5: 5 CP (37 total)
Day 6: 5 CP (42 total)
Day 7: 5 CP (47 total)
Day 8: 5 CP (52 total)
Day 9: 4 CP (56 total)
Day 10: 4 CP (60 total)

Which in my mind is a reasonable way of enabling players to catch up quickly.

Enlightenment currenly gives you 300K exp bonus per day, not 1 CP per day. I think it should stay that way (some others far below the cap can probably tell you how it is working on PTS right now.

@Suru have you checked out PTS? If so have you noticed if you enlightenment is filling your CP bar or is only a fraction now per day?

Edit: It appears I'm wrong and it does in fact give 1CP per day of enlightenment. I'll make a post specifically on that.

Even then, I dont know If I can grind out 800k XP for one CP during enlightenment, Ill just go to sleep since I recieve mine at 10 PM every night thats like a whole days worth of play

Yeah that is what I was figuring. The top CP players in the game are going to be enlightened 100% of the time...and actually end up losing enlightenment which just seems....crazy.

fr33r4ng3r wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

fr33r4ng3r wrote: »

I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus. I'm at 273 CP right now and I don't see how I'd ever be able to catch up (with the 0.95 and 0.08 scale).

The soft cap is an interesting idea (and it is a reward for those that have more CP than the cap), I just think the soft cap needs to be much closer to the hard cap initially until we're all at the 2000+ CP mark and then the soft cap can be much lower than the hard cap again.

If you're at 273 CP right now you're going to be in a good place, even with the "Soft cap" on the horizon. For you as a semi-active player you'll likely continue to remain around to slightly above the softcap from season to season, and that's not a bad thing.

I hope everyone isn't thinking that this new system is going to give everyone easy access to the cap every season, because it shouldn't. It should just remove the barrier of entry from the CP system and make the hill to "Max seasonal CP power" much less steep for any player to climb.

To be clear, I'm all for the catch up mechanic, I just think the numbers are worth tweaking. Also, my wife would strongly disagree with "semi-active" - I play every day, so I don't benefit much from enlightenment. I enjoy all aspects of this game (including crafting and trading - which don't offer an XP reward per se). The only thing I dislike is grinding. I also prefer the harder content which means I die (a lot) - and that means I get less XP overall. I hope this helps...

Yeah I just said "semi" since you're probably not what would be considered a "hardcore" gamer and I wanted to make the distinction.

One thing you point out that I have never agreed with is the fact that you don't earn CPs while playing sub-veteran alts. This penalizes the behavior of many games compared to others who only have a single character.

I took a month off the game and leveled an alt to VR16, he was sub-VR for 2-3 weeks otherwise I'd easily be at CP cap by now.

I also spend far too much time doing writes (on three characters) and the stupid associated surveys in craglorn for far too many hours each week along with many other things that earn me little to no XP while I'm playing the game. I think this kind of behavior needs to be rewarded more if possible.

Tyr wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

Tyr wrote: »

vanzan wrote: »

Question I have is, post season 1 will this formula actually allow people to catch-up?
Based on the average CP and this formula what do you expect the average person to earn?

Let me make some assumptions

Assume average CP earned per season is 258

Season 1 Cap 501
Average CP at End of Season 1 = 338
Gap = 163 CP

Season 2 Cap 1000
Average CP at End of Season 2 - 596 CP
Gap = 404

Season 3 Cap 1500
Average CP at End of Season 3 - 854 CP
Gap = 646

I would assume that catch-up would mean the "average" gap would be getting smaller not larger?

My numbers are all based on a few assumptions however I am trying to illustrate a point to ensure that it is considered.

Ty for your time.

Um no if you look at the average of 93CP in the 240 days since Champion system launched to Nov 2 then you get ~.44CP per day. If players keep earning XP at the same rate with the catch up system in place then the average will go up 83CP in 90 days.
On the other end, people with 501+ CP will only gain between 42-45 CP in 90 days.

This is complicated math because you have to solve for the upper value of when the the two integrals is equal. If you want to see the math I can post it, but unless you understand integral calculus it won't help.

If you consider that this is basically a doubling of the average CP in only the last ~25% of the time since Champion system launched it seems to be a very effective curve to close the gap.

The real question is how much they will increase the cap per season, because the higher you raise the cap, the less effective the catch-up mechanic becomes.

In other words people above the cap will eventually fall below it, people below the cap but above the 1CP per day rate will have a hard time keeping up with the cap and people below the 1CP per day rate will rocket up quickly.
Seems exactly what was intended.

I think you need a redbull mate, 93cp in 240 days is 0.3875cp/day.
Which is 155,000xp/day.
In turn will earn you 13,950,000xp in 90 days.
Which under new system will take you to 171cp, which is not 83cp but in fact 78cp increase.
Old system would earn 34cp. Increase of 44.

We'll use 501 as an example. They got 75 for free and earned the rest. (can't remeber the exact number people got for free, I wasn't one of them).
Brings it to 426 earned @ a rate of 1.775cp/day over 240 days.
Which is 170,400,000xp or 710000xp/day.
In the new system would net you in 90 days 63,900,000xp or 35cp. Bringing you to a total of 536cp.
Old system would earn 159cp. Loss of 124cp

If you started at 601, 75 free.
526 earned @ 2.19167/day or 876666.67xp/day.
78,900,000xp in 90 days or a further 36cp to make you 637cp.
Old system would earn 197cp. Loss of 162cp

Or if you want to take our old mate salty with say 2000cp.
75 free, 1925 earned @ 8.0234/day or 3,208,333.34xp/day.
288,750,000xp in 90 days or a further 125cp to make old mate salty 2042cp.
In the old system would make him 2721cp. So you can see why he is sad with a loss of 679cp.

We'll do my cp for example. I started on 0, am on 260 now and will most likely be 270 max because playing right now for 'progression' is a waste of time. I'll just build up enlightenment to 14 days, have fun, smash face and die lots in pvp.
270 @ 1.125/day or 450,000xp/day.
40,500,000xp in 90 days or a further 104cp making me 374cp.
With the old system I will have only made 101 more cp. I stand to gain a massive 3cp over the previous system.

Did I calc that right this time @ZOS_RyanRuzich ?

TLDR BOLD

It had only been 210 days when they gave us the 93 figure. The rest of your math is off because of that.
My fault for not clarifying actually, because I did write 240 even though I did the math for 210 correctly.

Most of his math and assumptions are off, not just that.

ZOS_RyanRuzich · October 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

I think this is a mistake as it makes things very odd for many players. Enlightenment should be a static amount given per day, otherwise it is very unbalanced at both ends of the sprectum.

@Ezareth - Misspoke..Enlightenment hasn't been touched and works as it currently does on Live. At a high level, while a player is logged off Enlightenment, if valid to be earned, accrues X enlightenment at a frequency. Neither the amount nor the frequency has been changed from what is currently on Live. Currently, and subject to change without notice to balance the System, there is no plan to touch Enlightenment. If we do change it, we'll update this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

Ezareth · October 2015

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I think this is a mistake as it makes things very odd for many players. Enlightenment should be a static amount given per day, otherwise it is very unbalanced at both ends of the sprectum.

@Ezareth - Misspoke..Enlightenment hasn't been touched and works as it currently does on Live. At a high level, while a player is logged off Enlightenment, if valid to be earned, accrues X enlightenment at a frequency. Neither the amount nor the frequency has been changed from what is currently on Live. Currently, and subject to change without notice to balance the System, there is no plan to touch Enlightenment. If we do change it, we'll update this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

Excellent! That makes the most sense to me with this formula as well. This means that the newest players are going to get hyper-levelled through the starting levels and the players in the top percentile will not feel the need to play all day every day to ensure their enlightenment is used up. Plus it doesn't counter the effect of the 3X multiplier (which probably could be reduced to 2X and serve the same purpose).

Tyr · October 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Freeman wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

How is Enlightenment going to work after 2.2 hits Live?

I'm going to assume that it will still be 100k XP per day that are applied at a x4 rate. That makes sense as a catch up mechanic.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong @ZOS_RyanRuzich)

Using the handy spreadsheet that @Dominoid created (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14l_K_29Hyj4cjuCAcbCdeGBtLAMRjdbNz78zS6kTjZc/edit#gid=0) , we'd get the following for a newly minted V1 player that earns about 100k XP/day (ie, just enough to keep up with the enlightenment)

Day 1: 10 CP
Day 2: 8 CP (18 total)
Day 3: 7 CP (25 total)
Day 4: 7 CP (32 total)
Day 5: 5 CP (37 total)
Day 6: 5 CP (42 total)
Day 7: 5 CP (47 total)
Day 8: 5 CP (52 total)
Day 9: 4 CP (56 total)
Day 10: 4 CP (60 total)

Which in my mind is a reasonable way of enabling players to catch up quickly.

Enlightenment currenly gives you 300K exp bonus per day, not 1 CP per day. I think it should stay that way (some others far below the cap can probably tell you how it is working on PTS right now.

@Suru have you checked out PTS? If so have you noticed if you enlightenment is filling your CP bar or is only a fraction now per day?

Edit: It appears I'm wrong and it does in fact give 1CP per day of enlightenment. I'll make a post specifically on that.

Lol nvm, just saw ZOS_RyanRuzich's latest post.

zornyan · October 2015

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I think this is a mistake as it makes things very odd for many players. Enlightenment should be a static amount given per day, otherwise it is very unbalanced at both ends of the sprectum.

@Ezareth - Misspoke..Enlightenment hasn't been touched and works as it currently does on Live. At a high level, while a player is logged off Enlightenment, if valid to be earned, accrues X enlightenment at a frequency. Neither the amount nor the frequency has been changed from what is currently on Live. Currently, and subject to change without notice to balance the System, there is no plan to touch Enlightenment. If we do change it, we'll update this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

How does enlightenment work for above cap players?

For instance how much exp would someone at 800 cp need for their next cp?

For example if 800-801 took 2 million exp, would it be 2 million minus 300k?

Or would one cp simply take 100k exp to earn?

Likewise for someone at 10cp, how would enlightenment work for them? As it would only take say 50k exp, would it lower that value down even more? Or just provide no bonus until it's over 100k per cp required?

Hiero_Glyph · October 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I think this is a mistake as it makes things very odd for many players. Enlightenment should be a static amount given per day, otherwise it is very unbalanced at both ends of the sprectum.

@Ezareth - Misspoke..Enlightenment hasn't been touched and works as it currently does on Live. At a high level, while a player is logged off Enlightenment, if valid to be earned, accrues X enlightenment at a frequency. Neither the amount nor the frequency has been changed from what is currently on Live. Currently, and subject to change without notice to balance the System, there is no plan to touch Enlightenment. If we do change it, we'll update this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

Excellent! That makes the most sense to me with this formula as well. This means that the newest players are going to get hyper-levelled through the starting levels and the players in the top percentile will not feel the need to play all day every day to ensure their enlightenment is used up. Plus it doesn't counter the effect of the 3X multiplier (which probably could be reduced to 2X and serve the same purpose).

I mostly agree. The only change I think I would like is to include a CP experience multiplier based on the current cap. ZOS could make it where 502-1,002 is 1.5x; 1,003-1,503 is 2x; 1,504-2,004 is 2.5x; etc. It really depends how harshly they want to penalize players above the cap. Similarly, ZOS could make it where it is just 2x until you attain over double the current cap (1,003+), after which it goes to 3x. A flat 3x seems a bit harsh, especially for players that reach the cap within a season as they will be hitting a wall of sorts.

As it stands now enlightenment is fairly pointless to players above the cap so do we really need to keep penalizing them further?

Suru · October 2015

zornyan wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I think this is a mistake as it makes things very odd for many players. Enlightenment should be a static amount given per day, otherwise it is very unbalanced at both ends of the sprectum.

@Ezareth - Misspoke..Enlightenment hasn't been touched and works as it currently does on Live. At a high level, while a player is logged off Enlightenment, if valid to be earned, accrues X enlightenment at a frequency. Neither the amount nor the frequency has been changed from what is currently on Live. Currently, and subject to change without notice to balance the System, there is no plan to touch Enlightenment. If we do change it, we'll update this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

How does enlightenment work for above cap players?

For instance how much exp would someone at 800 cp need for their next cp?

For example if 800-801 took 2 million exp, would it be 2 million minus 300k?

Or would one cp simply take 100k exp to earn?

Likewise for someone at 10cp, how would enlightenment work for them? As it would only take say 50k exp, would it lower that value down even more? Or just provide no bonus until it's over 100k per cp required?

Im at over 900 on PTS, it takes 3 million for me. A friend is 750 and requires 2.4 million.