Champion System Catch-up Mechanic

Septimus_Magna

Enlightment = catch-up mechanic for not playing.
Champion System catch-up mechanic = catch-up mechanic for having less CPs than the cap.

Here a chart of the XP needed to gain CPs, you can see that its a lineair progression up to the season cap.

silky_soft

Tyr wrote: »

vanzan wrote: »

Question I have is, post season 1 will this formula actually allow people to catch-up?
Based on the average CP and this formula what do you expect the average person to earn?

Let me make some assumptions

Assume average CP earned per season is 258

Season 1 Cap 501
Average CP at End of Season 1 = 338
Gap = 163 CP

Season 2 Cap 1000
Average CP at End of Season 2 - 596 CP
Gap = 404

Season 3 Cap 1500
Average CP at End of Season 3 - 854 CP
Gap = 646

I would assume that catch-up would mean the "average" gap would be getting smaller not larger?

My numbers are all based on a few assumptions however I am trying to illustrate a point to ensure that it is considered.

Ty for your time.

Um no if you look at the average of 93CP in the 240 days since Champion system launched to Nov 2 then you get ~.44CP per day. If players keep earning XP at the same rate with the catch up system in place then the average will go up 83CP in 90 days.
On the other end, people with 501+ CP will only gain between 42-45 CP in 90 days.

This is complicated math because you have to solve for the upper value of when the the two integrals is equal. If you want to see the math I can post it, but unless you understand integral calculus it won't help.

If you consider that this is basically a doubling of the average CP in only the last ~25% of the time since Champion system launched it seems to be a very effective curve to close the gap.

The real question is how much they will increase the cap per season, because the higher you raise the cap, the less effective the catch-up mechanic becomes.

In other words people above the cap will eventually fall below it, people below the cap but above the 1CP per day rate will have a hard time keeping up with the cap and people below the 1CP per day rate will rocket up quickly.
Seems exactly what was intended.

I think you need a redbull mate, 93cp in 240 days is 0.3875cp/day.
Which is 155,000xp/day.
In turn will earn you 13,950,000xp in 90 days.
Which under new system will take you to 171cp, which is not 83cp but in fact 78cp increase.
Old system would earn 34cp. Increase of 44.

We'll use 501 as an example. They got 75 for free and earned the rest. (can't remeber the exact number people got for free, I wasn't one of them).
Brings it to 426 earned @ a rate of 1.775cp/day over 240 days.
Which is 170,400,000xp or 710000xp/day.
In the new system would net you in 90 days 63,900,000xp or 35cp. Bringing you to a total of 536cp.
Old system would earn 159cp. Loss of 124cp

If you started at 601, 75 free.
526 earned @ 2.19167/day or 876666.67xp/day.
78,900,000xp in 90 days or a further 36cp to make you 637cp.
Old system would earn 197cp. Loss of 162cp

Or if you want to take our old mate salty with say 2000cp.
75 free, 1925 earned @ 8.0234/day or 3,208,333.34xp/day.
288,750,000xp in 90 days or a further 125cp to make old mate salty 2042cp.
In the old system would make him 2721cp. So you can see why he is sad with a loss of 679cp.

We'll do my cp for example. I started on 0, am on 260 now and will most likely be 270 max because playing right now for 'progression' is a waste of time. I'll just build up enlightenment to 14 days, have fun, smash face and die lots in pvp.
270 @ 1.125/day or 450,000xp/day.
40,500,000xp in 90 days or a further 104cp making me 374cp.
With the old system I will have only made 101 more cp. I stand to gain a massive 3cp over the previous system.

Did I calc that right this time @ZOS_RyanRuzich ?

TLDR BOLD

rfennell_ESO

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

The new catch-up mechanic, currently on PTS, is subject to change based on player feedback and data. We’ll be iterating on it as needed on the PTS—we’ll do our best to update this post if and when that happens.

Please let us know if you have any questions!

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

Will Enlightenment only apply to one Champion rank at the lower levels?

I'm already over the cap, but that's the one thing that came to mind that might be a little bit off.

Nikkiy

Wollust wrote: »

Great formula. Seriously. Very good to catch up those first 300 CPs which are by far the ones that make the biggest difference.
I have one concern though. Why am I getting punished for having more than the Cap? I played your game on a daily basis since the release, I payed my sub (since the release of the game in 2014) for more exp and because I think this game is worth putting the money in, i bought scrolls and potions to boost my exp because I didn't want to fall behind. Now I'm sitting on almost 700 CPs with no chance of earning many more in the future because your tripling rule is preventing me from doing so. Why is this necessairy? Isn't it enough that every player above the cap loses progression they made over the past few months? I'm fine with not being able to spend approx. 250 cp as of november, but I'm not fine with the fact that every new CP will cost me millions to earn. And all because I played your game loyally.

THIS THIS AND SO MUCH THIS!!!!

Enodoc

@ZOS_RyanRuzich Not sure if it's been stated anywhere yet, but how is Enlightenment factored into the new mechanics?

Malmai

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

Greetings all!

There have been several requests on the forums for an explanation of exactly how the Champion System Catch-up mechanic we’re introducing with the Orsinium patch works. We’re here to offer some details about how the system works on the PTS, and hopefully answer some of your questions. Please note: This thread is not to discuss the pros/cons of the system, but rather to pass on some information about how the system currently works to help you with testing, and assist us in spotting any inconsistencies or errors.

With the new system, the formula used to calculate the amount of XP needed to gain a single Champion Point is as follows:
((TotalPoints / (Cap ^ 0.95)) + 0.08) * 400000, where Total Points is how many CP points you’ve earned.
If you exceed the cap, the XP required is calculated given the above formula, and then tripled. (So, the XP you would need to earn 512 Champion Points is 589,807, which is then tripled to 1,769,421.)
For the first Champion Point (going from 0 Champion Points to 1 Champion Point) 1XP is required.
We only triple the point values if you are over the current Champion Point cap—once we raise the cap, the values will return to normal.

The new catch-up mechanic, currently on PTS, is subject to change based on player feedback and data. We’ll be iterating on it as needed on the PTS—we’ll do our best to update this post if and when that happens.

Please let us know if you have any questions!

This is toilet system we never gonna get to 500 CP are you joking?

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

I don't understand why people below the cap/the threshold mentioned earlier need more XP for one CP than those people who already earned them. Catching up means you need less to get to a certain spot (501 CP), not more...

Malmai

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

This isn't just a catch-up mechanic... it's a SLOW-DOWN mechanic. After 501 CP, every 2 out of 3 hours of game time is effectively WASTED due to the tripling of XP required per CP.

I don't understand why they needed a slow-down when the cap is present. Why can't we stockpile CP for the next cap?

Yes exactly

Rylana

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

I already edit it mate

There's a lag for when a post is submitted on our end and when it gets approved. Sorry :-(

Wait... so the actual developer responses on these forums are pre-moderated?

What in the actual....

Vicodine

Whoa, talking numbers, I did a little spreadsheet of my own.
You can view it here

To better understand at who is this system aimed at: it's most probably aimed at absolutely NEW players, or players around the at-the-time average CP. The numbers follow:

With the OLD, linear system, the XP needed to reach champion rank 501 is:
200 400 000 XP
With the NEW, seemingly linear but when you add the numbers up rather exponential system, the XP you need to earn to reach 501CP is:
152 455 765 XP

So, yeah. The difference in total is 47 944 235 XP.

This means that when you are above some threshold (~339 CP), every player with LESS Champion Points than you has a GREAT chance to catch up to you (they need to earn ~half the XP you needed to till this point (you needed 135 600 000
XP, newbies need "just" 73 232 664 XP)

It doesn't so much give you a chance to catch up to the current cap, it helps you reach the point of "higher average" , where you get at least 1 notable 120point passive each (depends on your distribution), and people at cap will not also have more than 3 (1 per) 120point passives. At most another 30 point. The next raise should hang somewhere around your second 120 point notables.

I'm starting to love this. Rigt now I'm sitting at 191 points. Looking forward to my first 120point passive

Enodoc

The more maths I see, the better this looks.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand why people below the cap/the threshold mentioned earlier need more XP for one CP than those people who already earned them. Catching up means you need less to get to a certain spot (501 CP), not more...

@r.jan_emailb16_ESO Check the numbers again. It now takes 48 mil. less XP to reach 501 from scratch than it did before. Yes, it will take more XP than it used to if you're closer to 501, but that is also something that a catch-up mechanic can do -- by slowing down the rate at which you get ahead.

silky_soft

Rylana wrote: »

ZOS_RyanRuzich wrote: »

silky_soft wrote: »

I already edit it mate

There's a lag for when a post is submitted on our end and when it gets approved. Sorry :-(

Wait... so the actual developer responses on these forums are pre-moderated?

What in the actual....

He actually wrote different wording in his original post before it was edited

Kwivur

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

This isn't just a catch-up mechanic... it's a SLOW-DOWN mechanic. After 501 CP, every 2 out of 3 hours of game time is effectively WASTED due to the tripling of XP required per CP.

I don't understand why they needed a slow-down when the cap is present. Why can't we stockpile CP for the next cap?

It's called "STOP GRINDING CP AND PLAY THE GAME"!!

Wollust

Kwivur wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

This isn't just a catch-up mechanic... it's a SLOW-DOWN mechanic. After 501 CP, every 2 out of 3 hours of game time is effectively WASTED due to the tripling of XP required per CP.

I don't understand why they needed a slow-down when the cap is present. Why can't we stockpile CP for the next cap?

It's called "STOP GRINDING CP AND PLAY THE GAME"!!

No one was talking about grinding though. It's just a fact that for players like me, the exp we earn will be wasted because of that tripling rule which seems pretty much not fair tbh.

1. you read
2. then you think about what you read
3. you think about an answer, counter argument whatever you gonna write
4. you think about that answer etc. first
5. then you post it

Chivana

The good news is: Once I reach the cap I won't need ESO Plus anymore to squeeze another 10 % out of the daily xp session Smart move, thanks ZOS!

lol

GreyRanger

What is the purpose of making CP harder to earn from 350 CP to 500? The person who did the grind pre-2.2 got those pretty easily. That seems like a maintain the advantage mechanic.

Enodoc

GreyRanger wrote: »

What is the purpose of making CP harder to earn from 350 CP to 500? The person who did the grind pre-2.2 got those pretty easily. That seems like a maintain the advantage mechanic.

Presumably it's to slow those people down so they don't get so far ahead of those with fewer CPs. Yes it's probably unfair, but I think that's the reasoning.

AlnilamE

Kwivur wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

This isn't just a catch-up mechanic... it's a SLOW-DOWN mechanic. After 501 CP, every 2 out of 3 hours of game time is effectively WASTED due to the tripling of XP required per CP.

I don't understand why they needed a slow-down when the cap is present. Why can't we stockpile CP for the next cap?

It's called "STOP GRINDING CP AND PLAY THE GAME"!!

Actually, for those above the cap, "playing the game" (ie, doing quests and anything that will only give XP once) comes with a 3x XP penalty, so it's actually called "don't bother playing the game and just do stuff that gives repeatable XP, like grinding".

zornyan

Vicodine wrote: »

Whoa, talking numbers, I did a little spreadsheet of my own.
You can view it here

To better understand at who is this system aimed at: it's most probably aimed at absolutely NEW players, or players around the at-the-time average CP. The numbers follow:

With the OLD, linear system, the XP needed to reach champion rank 501 is:
200 400 000 XP
With the NEW, seemingly linear but when you add the numbers up rather exponential system, the XP you need to earn to reach 501CP is:
152 455 765 XP

So, yeah. The difference in total is 47 944 235 XP.

This means that when you are above some threshold (~339 CP), every player with LESS Champion Points than you has a GREAT chance to catch up to you (they need to earn ~half the XP you needed to till this point (you needed 135 600 000
XP, newbies need "just" 73 232 664 XP)

It doesn't so much give you a chance to catch up to the current cap, it helps you reach the point of "higher average" , where you get at least 1 notable 120point passive each (depends on your distribution), and people at cap will not also have more than 3 (1 per) 120point passives. At most another 30 point. The next raise should hang somewhere around your second 120 point notables.

I'm starting to love this. Rigt now I'm sitting at 191 points. Looking forward to my first 120point passive

You keep forgetting. Once you hit 338 cp, you'll need 15 MILLION more exp than currently to get from 338 to 501. So in actual fact those currently at 501 have an advantage as most players won't get beyond 338.

And if someone is currently stuck at low cp, they most defiantly won't hit 501 when there's an xp increase.

Hiero_Glyph

ZOS needs to rescale every player according to the new CP exp. Let me give you a couple examples to make this clear.

1) A player with 2,000 CP by Orsinium's launch requires 800 million CP exp (ignoring enlightenment and ~70 starting CP). By comparison the new system would require 6.4 billion CP exp to unlock that same amount. That is a difference of over 5.6 billion CP exp or 7x as much CP exp. To be fair, that same player that has 2,000 CP currently should be converted to only have ~800 CP per the new CP system, otherwise you are giving them an astronomical CP exp advantage for their previous effort.

2) A player with 1,000 CP requires 400 million CP exp (ignoring enlightenment or starting CP). Again, under the new system this would require 1.4 billion CP exp. That is a difference of over 1 billion CP exp. To be fair they should be rescaled to ~630 CP as this is how much their previous CP exp total would unlock.

Obviously this is up to the discretion of ZOS and they can give players the advantage in the conversion but to triple or septuple their CP exp is outrageous! I'll be the first to admit that every player should get every single point of CP exp that they grinded. ZOS can even ignore enlightenment and the starting CP and give players the full 400k CP exp per point in the conversion, but there is no way those players earned anywhere close to 6.4 and 1.4 billion CP exp respectively.

Enodoc

zornyan wrote: »

You keep forgetting. Once you hit 338 cp, you'll need 15 MILLION more exp than currently to get from 338 to 501. So in actual fact those currently at 501 have an advantage as most players won't get beyond 338.

But only until the next cap. Say the next cap is 1002, then you'd need 19 million less XP to get from 338 to 501 than you do now.

zornyan

But all that means is every single time a cap raises, people will reach the soft cap, say in your example 501 when the cap is q000. But those that have already grinded will be miles ahead, and will never be caught up to.

Hiero_Glyph

zornyan wrote: »

But all that means is every single time a cap raises, people will reach the soft cap, say in your example 501 when the cap is q000. But those that have already grinded will be miles ahead, and will never be caught up to.

Enlightenment provides a huge boost to players over the cap as well. In a year they have a guaranteed growth of 365 (366 next year) no matter how much the CP exp each point costs. Obviously the current enlightenment system does not translate well to the new system, since CP can cost less than 100k each initially, and making a CP that would normally cost over 3 million exp only 100k seems far too advantageous. Hopefully ZOS addresses this issue as well.

zornyan

The whole system needs rethinking, I agree with a catch up mechanic, but all they needed to do was adjust the scape slightly so that 400 is the soft cap, and from then on it sticks to 400k each cp, it should never cost more than 400k per cp. That's just a *** move at attempting to punish anyone over 338 cp.

Or they could scrap this stupid idea, leave the 501 cap, and give anyone below 400 or 300 cp 3x or 4x enlightenment .

ZOS_RyanRuzich

silky_soft wrote: »

@ZOS_RyanRuzich so this is true comparing new system to old system?

@silky_soft - Under the current implementation, that is how the math works out. In essence, at about 338 the cost per cp is over the old constant of 400,000xp to get to the next level. We fully plan on iterating as needed on PTS, taking the posts on the forums into account.

Ezareth wrote: »

My only issue with the existing Seasonal cap you've set for PC is I feel that 501 CPs is too low and will rob many active players such as myself and many others who have played the game normally of a normal sense of progression. I'd be fine with earning CPs (that I can spend) at the increased cost that players in the 338CP to the 501CP range are seeing with the existing cap but I and many other active players and supporters of ESO are going to go into Osrinium patch earning future CPs at a hyper inflated cost and I think that is something you should look at.

Setting the First season cap at 600-700CPs I think would be much more reasonable, especially if this is a cap you plan on keeping in place for longer than 30 days.

@Ezareth - Losing the sense of progression is a concern that we're attempting to find the correct balance to account for. The cap of 501 was chosen very carefully based upon examination of the data.

vanzan wrote: »

Question I have is, post season 1 will this formula actually allow people to catch-up?

@vanzan - There is a difference between matching exactly a player who is willing to maximize their CP gain and a catchup mechanic. Even if a player gets to 3600cp while the cap is 501, his power is capped at the 501 mark, allowing another player to match within a season. In addition, currently, the player over the cap is required to earn not only the extra XP needed by the formula, but is also hit with a 3x XP requirement. We're looking at what the appropriate growth rate is, and as I posted earlier, all parts of this formula and system are subject to change. We'll do our best to keep this post up to date with what's currently implemented.

silky_soft wrote: »

With this system there is a soft cap around 35% lower then the actual cap.

@silky_soft - We may adjust the ratio of the soft cap to the hard cap as PTS goes on.

Freeman

@ZOS_RyanRuzich

How is Enlightenment going to work after 2.2 hits Live?

Vicodine

zornyan wrote: »

Vicodine wrote: »

Whoa, talking numbers, I did a little spreadsheet of my own.
You can view it here

To better understand at who is this system aimed at: it's most probably aimed at absolutely NEW players, or players around the at-the-time average CP. The numbers follow:

With the OLD, linear system, the XP needed to reach champion rank 501 is:
200 400 000 XP
With the NEW, seemingly linear but when you add the numbers up rather exponential system, the XP you need to earn to reach 501CP is:
152 455 765 XP

So, yeah. The difference in total is 47 944 235 XP.

This means that when you are above some threshold (~339 CP), every player with LESS Champion Points than you has a GREAT chance to catch up to you (they need to earn ~half the XP you needed to till this point (you needed 135 600 000
XP, newbies need "just" 73 232 664 XP)

It doesn't so much give you a chance to catch up to the current cap, it helps you reach the point of "higher average" , where you get at least 1 notable 120point passive each (depends on your distribution), and people at cap will not also have more than 3 (1 per) 120point passives. At most another 30 point. The next raise should hang somewhere around your second 120 point notables.

I'm starting to love this. Rigt now I'm sitting at 191 points. Looking forward to my first 120point passive

You keep forgetting. Once you hit 338 cp, you'll need 15 MILLION more exp than currently to get from 338 to 501. So in actual fact those currently at 501 have an advantage as most players won't get beyond 338.

And if someone is currently stuck at low cp, they most defiantly won't hit 501 when there's an xp increase.

See the thing is, I don't think you are supposed to reach the cap this time around. Many ppl will probably end up around 400cp +-. No matter where they start (given they start below that )

People at or above 501 will slow to a crawl, thanks to the x3 modifier. People above 1000CP will probably earn like a point a week. It's self-compensating. Even if they manage to earn the 3,5 mil. XP for 1 CP, for that kind of XP you can earn earn 5 or even 10 champion points below 501 (done with math now just guestimating). You are at least guaranteed 3x more CP below 501 than above 501. This happens every time the cap gets raised, one or two raises from now, the playing field might get pretty darn equal and easier to catch up to (depending by how much is the cap going to go up).

I can imagine that many from the exclusive 501+ club are going to be pissed, they are efectively burning XP (they need x3 the xp which can be viewed as if they are getting 1/3 xp), but they can mitigate part of that with Enlightened bonuses and XP pots/scrolls.

If i didn't know any better i would say that you can even negate the 1/3 penalty and even gain a bit ... hmmm

How do the XP bonuses work ?

XP * (400 % + 50 %)
or
XP * 4 * 1,5
?

Either way, considering even just the enlightement bonus, you need ~440k to ~840k per point (before bonuses) between 501 and 1000 (probably somewhere around the next cap). I guess the grind gets down to "when enlightened only" ?

Ezareth

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

vanzan wrote: »

Question I have is, post season 1 will this formula actually allow people to catch-up?
Based on the average CP and this formula what do you expect the average person to earn?

Let me make some assumptions

Assume average CP earned per season is 258

Season 1 Cap 501
Average CP at End of Season 1 = 338
Gap = 163 CP

Season 2 Cap 1000
Average CP at End of Season 2 - 596 CP
Gap = 404

Season 3 Cap 1500
Average CP at End of Season 3 - 854 CP
Gap = 646

I would assume that catch-up would mean the "average" gap would be getting smaller not larger?

My numbers are all based on a few assumptions however I am trying to illustrate a point to ensure that it is considered.

Ty for your time.

Yes and no.

This formula will not allow players who are extremely casual a chance to "catch up" to players who are hard core or extremely active.

It *will* however allow players who are new to the game and extremely active a chance to "Catch up" to players who are past the cap today which I think is the intended design.

Additionally players who are semi-casual or fairly active but not totally into XP gaining activities will gain CPs at a drastically increase rate for the remainder of their time in ESO which is also a plus.

Not really, hardcore players will continue to earn exp and stuff anyway, but once you hit 338 cp to get to 50. It will require 15 million MORE exp than currently.

Meaning it will take those casual players. Several times longer to get anywhere near those hardcore players. That's quote literally the xp of 1-16 be ranks more than currently used.

Casual players will continue to remain at or below the "Soft cap" of 338. Which really when you think about it is the way we want it. The power difference between 501 CPs and 338 cps is not that large and each time the cap is raised the difference between the "Soft cap" and the "hard cap" as expressed in terms of actual power will shrink.

Let's consider what would happen with a player like me that joined today under this system however.

I would rapidly catch up to the soft cap and then slowly but surely start inching my way to the cap season after season. The guys who are already *at cap* have a 300%+ penalty to any future champion points they earn, as long they remain at the cap. I'm eventually going to catch up to those players (but never pass a player who is already ahead of me and continues to earn the same exp per day as me).

Ezareth

zornyan wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

@Ezareth

Did you see this?

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I don't usually talk numbers, but here's some to chew on with regards to the number of champion points players have. The number of players that are going to be affected by the cap is very, very small.

• Average CP on PC - 93
• Average CP on PS4 - 46
• Average CP on XB1 - 44

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The averages I posted were calculated from active accounts that have at least 1 VR character. (i.e. - can start earning CP) An account is only considered active if it has been logged into in the past 30 days and played the game for a period of time.

You and I are the minority. I want a balanced game with good fights and I thought you did too. This is a good thing! A 600 CP advantage is huge.

As I've said in multiple times, cp's won't change that. I can faceroll 6 people at once, with 100 cp, I can still gank people and insta gib them with my nightblade, even against people with several hundred cp, hell look at sypher, 300 cp and there's a video of him beat 20! Yes 20 players by himself...

Cps are not the issue.

Skill has always allowed 1vXers to kill players who lack that skill. That will never change.

CPs just give a raw statistical advantage to players who are willing to spend the time to acquire them in *addition* to any skill advantage they have over the player.

The is the problem most people see with the CP system.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Enodoc wrote: »

The more maths I see, the better this looks.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand why people below the cap/the threshold mentioned earlier need more XP for one CP than those people who already earned them. Catching up means you need less to get to a certain spot (501 CP), not more...

@r.jan_emailb16_ESO Check the numbers again. It now takes 48 mil. less XP to reach 501 from scratch than it did before. Yes, it will take more XP than it used to if you're closer to 501, but that is also something that a catch-up mechanic can do -- by slowing down the rate at which you get ahead.

I see, admittedly I haven't done all the math.

So it's actually good to increase the average CP number, but not boosting everyone to 501 within the next few month... hm guess I can live with that, even though it doesn't benefit me at all.