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The Day ESO Dies
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rb2001✭✭✭✭"Let me take you to a world where whatever you believe is real.. is real." - Randy Marsh
In seriousness, let's ponder different progression systems, for fun, and shoot holes in them.
No levels, no classes, just gear (even gear more realistic) and Proficiencies
This works in action-adventure games. Many would be disoriented with this in an RPG, because they would feel like complexity is being removed.
It could be, or it could not be. It is entirely possible that it would increase complexity, if designed right.
What would happen is that the training, learning, progression and degeneration (becoming less proficient at things you stop doing) of Proficiencies could be much richer.
Instead of being a VR3 tank with x hps, you could be.. a man. Who is known to be very good at blocking, and staying in a fight, and utilizing his armor correctly to take blows.
Gear would become more realistic. None of this rubbish with stats on it, just model some penetration and blow physics of swords and weapons hitting armor of different materials. We have more than enough computing power on the average cell phone to do this today.
This has not been explored in many games yet.0 -
jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »But they dont though. Quest grinders do not come anywhere close to mob grinders. This will finally be addressed in either IC or Orsinium. This long overdue xp rebalancing I feel will have a much bigger impact on closing the 'gap' than people are talking about. Right now quest grinders are getting dusted in xp gains.
No it won't. Right now there are 2 options and Zenimaxs proposed answer is not even close to what is needed to balance it.
A 50% increase to quest experience. The most I get is around 20k, add 50% and now I get 30k for completing a quest that takes 20 minutes. In 20 minutes of grinding without XP potions I can get 400k experience grinding trash mobs in a certain unnamed cave.
So my choice is spend 20 minutes completing a quest and get 30k XP or spend that time farming trash and get 400k XP. Which do you think I will choose? Even the worst grind spots are at the very least 5x or more better XP than adding 50% to Quest XP gain. The required XP gain would have to be 2000% to balance it and for reasons I won't go into they SHOULD NOT do that.
Eric Wrobel was extremely off on this claim.
200% increase to public dungeon mobs is going to be completely negated unless Zenimax changes the diminishing return from more than 2 people attacking a mob. The only thing this creates is 20+ people all in one cave farming mobs which means you will get less experience from this route than previous. Worse the experience of those dungeons will be just like the game was when plat farmers were parking on dungeon bosses when the game released.
Complete waste of time cause people will still be doing the same thing they were before. Farming mobs in one small area on a map to level or CP grind.
Edited by Enraged_Tiki_Torch on July 6, 2015 6:30PMMy solution to Champion Point System here2 -
Have to admit as a casual gamer I will not even think of touching PvP in this game due to the obviously messed up mechanics. In fact we will be gone as soon as we have played all the content and no way in hell are we going to replay or grind it.
Clearly the game designers have no clue and have screwed the pooch by all the content band aids they are scrambling to apply.5 -
pmn100b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭All the people trying to pin the blame on the 'entitlement culture' are missing the point entirely. This is about encouraging new blood to the game now and in the future. Here's a scenario:
PvE Guild from WoW wants to try another game. Guild Leader: "How about ESO? They've got leader boards right?". Guild Member: "nah, they've got that champion system thing, we'll never catch up".
And they will NEVER catch up, if guilds like Hodor for example continue to grind CP everyday in the meantime. And even if Hodor stopped for a year, it'd still take the new guild a year of grinding CP to get close to Hodor's times on the leader boards. And people will bang on about skill>CP, well if CP has no impact, why would these high end PvE guilds be asking for a minimum CP amount to join them now? Of course they make a difference.
Its totally understandable that if you don't play this game competitively, the CP system makes no impact to you. You might even enjoy seeing that vertical progression, even though it makes next to no difference to your game play. But for those that do play the game competitively, it makes a difference. Whether it be PvE or PvP, hence why this topic was started.
A simple solution would be to remove the parts of the CP system that affect combat effectiveness. Replace them with non essential perks that the less competitive gamer would appreciate more, unique emotes to unlock or something, I dunno. The competitive players will be be happy also cause they won't see themselves or others run away with an advantage based on how often you can afford to grind. Back to my original example, that WoW guild can now join ESO and give those leader boards a shot right after reaching endgame. Surely thats what ESO wants long term, more people playing the game.
But this is probably all falling on deaf ears because more likely than not, this CP gap has been carefully engineered to encourage xp pot purchases. Pretty simple business plan there.
Edited by pmn100b16_ESO on July 6, 2015 6:45PM8 -
rb2001✭✭✭✭winterbornb14_ESO wrote: »Have to admit as a casual gamer I will not even think of touching PvP in this game due to the obviously messed up mechanics. In fact we will be gone as soon as we have played all the content and no way in hell are we going to replay or grind it.
Clearly the game designers have no clue and have screwed the pooch by all the content band aids they are scrambling to apply.
I wouldn't say I am a casual or a hardcore, as I don't really like the connotations of those labels.
That said, I play a lot of games, PC and Nintendo first party stuff, and I play them all to completion, love to talk about them, and get very invested in them.
I, like you, don't think I will be touching PVP in ESO for a few reasons:
1. As you said, it seems like it has.. some issues (quoting that fear thread.. fear has.. some issues, was funny title);
2. capture the flag seems really boring
3. it feels completely tacked on, like a different game; and
4. my characters have no RP interest/support in/for the war, have no reason to go slaughter other people voluntarily (I feel like everyone in the game is such a jerkface going around wanting to kill everyone and take over Cyrodil - I abhor the concept).
What I would PVP in: PVP everywhere, with players taking on the roles that we fight (necromancers, bandits, etc.). I have posted on this before as I feel like a massive opportunity was missed.0 -
jcasini222ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭@Enraged_Tiki_Torch when quest grinding what quest takes 20 minutes? honest quesion. Mostly recently I did the first 30 quests in vr stormhaven at 5:03 minute breakdown, I've never run into an actual 20 minute quest when quest grinding. (still trying for the 4:30 mark that was said way back in the day by ZoS). All enlightened plus xp scroll and in 2 hours 6 cp's killing some mobs along the way. If this bumps up to 12 it'll make a difference.
Does further xp balancing need to happen sure.0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
How the hell did you become a community ambassador anyway?Attorneyatlawl wrote: »It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.
No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.
Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.
Please stop trying to make excuses for them @Attorneyatlawl and let them know we hate it.
You become a community ambassador by agreeing with everything that zos does.
You must honestly not have read much of my post history. I've been one of the most vocal critics of ESO for two years, now, mostly better-known regarding the UI, low game difficulty outside of top-tier endgame grouping (in my opinion), the Crown Store, communication transparency, and no small number of other things
. Also, to clarify... the Ambassador program is not an official medium. I do not speak in any official capacity whatsoever when I post here. I will continue to, as I always have been through a few different channels this entire time, highlight issues/debates/exploits/bugs/mechanic flaws/gameplay complications in general, especially when there are ones I don't believe they're aware of. I think it's unquestionable that the overall feeling, misguided or not, about the extra character levels ("veteran ranks") which are functionally identical to levels 1 through 50, is extremely negative in the community and it's also unquestionable they know that. It's also absolutely unquestionable they know and have been closely reading everyone's comments about the Champion System and how people view it, both objectively and subjectively. Edited by Attorneyatlawl on July 6, 2015 6:47PM-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.3 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I voted for him. I don't need to agree with everything he says to recognize his contributions to the community. *shrugs*eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
How the hell did you become a community ambassador anyway?Attorneyatlawl wrote: »It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.
No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.
Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.
You become a community ambassador by agreeing with everything that zos does.
Games have to be enjoyable first and foremost. To survive and thrive, an MMO needs to be fun for existing players and accessible to new players. It isn't fun when time becomes more important than skill - unless hardcore grinders are your target audience, but I doubt this is what ZOS intended. It isn't accessible when a new player can't catch up in any reasonable amount of time. These are long-term problems ZOS needs to consider and prevent. It's good that we're talking about them.7 -
rb2001✭✭✭✭
I voted for him. I don't need to agree with everything he says to recognize his contributions to the community. *shrugs*eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
How the hell did you become a community ambassador anyway?Attorneyatlawl wrote: »It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.
No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.
Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.
You become a community ambassador by agreeing with everything that zos does.
Games have to be enjoyable first and foremost. To survive and thrive, an MMO needs to be fun for existing players and accessible to new players. It isn't fun when time becomes more important than skill - unless hardcore grinders are your target audience, but I doubt this is what ZOS intended. It isn't accessible when a new player can't catch up in any reasonable amount of time. These are long-term problems ZOS needs to consider and prevent. It's good that we're talking about them.
Nice post.0 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
How the hell did you become a community ambassador anyway?Attorneyatlawl wrote: »It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.
No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.
Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.
You become a community ambassador by agreeing with everything that zos does.
I would think that a community ambassador would speak to ZOS on behalf of the community. The community hates the veteran ranks. We are telling you as much. Please stop trying to make excuses for them @Attorneyatlawl and let them know we hate it. And please use whatever resources are at your disposal to find out why they keep lying about it.
I'm in the community. I don't hate veteran ranks. My 5 friends I play with don't hate them. I've never heard anyone in my 150+ person PVP guild complain about them. What I have heard are 2 dozen angry people I've never met try and speak for me on a message board that encompasses only about 1 tenth of 1 percent of the game's audience. If anything the "attorneyatlaw" has been completely on point with my views and the views of my peers.
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michaelb14a_ESO2✭✭✭✭pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »All the people trying to pin the blame on the 'entitlement culture' are missing the point entirely. This is about encouraging new blood to the game now and in the future. Here's a scenario:
PvE Guild from WoW wants to try another game. Guild Leader: "How about ESO? They've got leader boards right?". Guild Member: "nah, they've got that champion system thing, we'll never catch up".
And they will NEVER catch up, if guilds like Hodor for example continue to grind CP everyday in the meantime. And even if Hodor stopped for a year, it'd still take the new guild a year of grinding CP to get close to Hodor's times on the leader boards. And people will bang on about skill>CP, well if CP has no impact, why would these high end PvE guilds be asking for a minimum CP amount to join them now? Of course they make a difference.
Its totally understandable that if you don't play this game competitively, the CP system makes no impact to you. You might even enjoy seeing that vertical progression, even though it makes next to no difference to your game play. But for those that do play the game competitively, it makes a difference. Whether it be PvE or PvP, hence why this topic was started.
A simple solution would be to remove the parts of the CP system that affect combat effectiveness. Replace them with non essential perks that the less competitive gamer would appreciate more, unique emotes to unlock or something, I dunno. The competitive players will be be happy also cause they won't see themselves or others run away with an advantage based on how often you can afford to grind. Back to my original example, that WoW guild can now join ESO and give those leader boards a shot right after reaching endgame. Surely thats what ESO wants long term, more people playing the game.
But this is probably all falling on deaf ears because more likely then not, this CP gap has been carefully engineered to encourage xp pot purchases. Pretty simple business plan there.
One more time. There is MAX on CP. Your only issue is it takes a long time to get to...1 -
JacksonCarter13✭✭✭I know this thread is going to keep going. But I guess I'm part of the problem because I'm a hardcore. I'm still outnumbered drastically by people grinding CP. I really really likes the idea in here about champion point seasons. Something like 250 per season every three months 250 more are then available. Loved this idea the most imoEdited by JacksonCarter13 on July 6, 2015 6:48PM0 -
pmn100b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »All the people trying to pin the blame on the 'entitlement culture' are missing the point entirely. This is about encouraging new blood to the game now and in the future. Here's a scenario:
PvE Guild from WoW wants to try another game. Guild Leader: "How about ESO? They've got leader boards right?". Guild Member: "nah, they've got that champion system thing, we'll never catch up".
And they will NEVER catch up, if guilds like Hodor for example continue to grind CP everyday in the meantime. And even if Hodor stopped for a year, it'd still take the new guild a year of grinding CP to get close to Hodor's times on the leader boards. And people will bang on about skill>CP, well if CP has no impact, why would these high end PvE guilds be asking for a minimum CP amount to join them now? Of course they make a difference.
Its totally understandable that if you don't play this game competitively, the CP system makes no impact to you. You might even enjoy seeing that vertical progression, even though it makes next to no difference to your game play. But for those that do play the game competitively, it makes a difference. Whether it be PvE or PvP, hence why this topic was started.
A simple solution would be to remove the parts of the CP system that affect combat effectiveness. Replace them with non essential perks that the less competitive gamer would appreciate more, unique emotes to unlock or something, I dunno. The competitive players will be be happy also cause they won't see themselves or others run away with an advantage based on how often you can afford to grind. Back to my original example, that WoW guild can now join ESO and give those leader boards a shot right after reaching endgame. Surely thats what ESO wants long term, more people playing the game.
But this is probably all falling on deaf ears because more likely then not, this CP gap has been carefully engineered to encourage xp pot purchases. Pretty simple business plan there.
One more time. There is MAX on CP. Your only issue is it takes a long time to get to...
Okay, I'll edit my scenario:
PvE Guild from WoW wants to try another game. Guild Leader: "How about ESO? They've got leader boards right?". Guild Member: "nah, they've got that champion system thing, we'll take 5 years to catch up".
Better? That'll sure offer them encouragement to join.4 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JacksonCarter13 wrote: »I know this thread is going to keep going. But I guess I'm part of the problem because I'm a hardcore. I'm still outnumbered drastically by people grinding CP. I really really likes the idea in here about champion point seasons. Something like 250 per season every three months 250 more are then available. Loved this idea the most imo
It is the one idea I have seen that a) seems to make most sense, and b) doesn't seem to be too hard to implement.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.0 -
jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »@Enraged_Tiki_Torch when quest grinding what quest takes 20 minutes? honest quesion. Mostly recently I did the first 30 quests in vr stormhaven at 5:03 minute breakdown, I've never run into an actual 20 minute quest when quest grinding. (still trying for the 4:30 mark that was said way back in the day by ZoS). All enlightened plus xp scroll and in 2 hours 6 cp's killing some mobs along the way. If this bumps up to 12 it'll make a difference.
Does further xp balancing need to happen sure.
The quests for completing a storyline. Yeah there are some XP gain from previous steps leading up to it but they are minimal xp. Example, saving King Emerch from his "suicidal dreamstate". From starting that questline to completing the final step I would say takes a player around 20 minutes. I am estimating of course. If you do faster cool, but 50% hardly even puts questing in the same universe as grinding with a 50% bonus.
To compare with your results: In 2 hours is all CP was enlightnened, I can get 24 CP in 2 hours without XP potions. 36 with. There one place in a zone that you can get around ~1.3 million xp an hour without pots. Even places in a V10 zone will give you 800-900k xp an hour without pots.
Edited by Enraged_Tiki_Torch on July 6, 2015 6:56PMMy solution to Champion Point System here0 -
Paradox✭✭✭✭pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »
Okay, I'll edit my scenario:
PvE Guild from WoW wants to try another game. Guild Leader: "How about ESO? They've got leader boards right?". Guild Member: "nah, they've got that champion system thing, we'll take 5 years to catch up".
Better? That'll sure offer them encouragement to join.[/quote]
They need both drastically increase diminishing returns factors from CPoints -> Bonuses and give players a powerful catch-up mechanic that gives them an edge over players that are at the 400+ mark already. Without it, any player wishing to be competitive in both PvP and PvE might as well quit.
On the bright side, if they don't fix it... We won't have to quit. The game will just die.Edited by Paradox on July 6, 2015 6:54PMEbonheart Pact
@iHateReloads
Tank And Spank - DragonKnightI've quit the game until ZoS stops acting like the community are children, and start actually listening to us.0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
You obviously haven't been paying attention.danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
How the hell did you become a community ambassador anyway?Attorneyatlawl wrote: »It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.
No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.
Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.
You become a community ambassador by agreeing with everything that zos does.
I would think that a community ambassador would speak to ZOS on behalf of the community. The community hates the veteran ranks. We are telling you as much. Please stop trying to make excuses for them @Attorneyatlawl and let them know we hate it. And please use whatever resources are at your disposal to find out why they keep lying about it.
I'm in the community. I don't hate veteran ranks. My 5 friends I play with don't hate them. I've never heard anyone in my 150+ person PVP guild complain about them. What I have heard are 2 dozen angry people I've never met try and speak for me on a message board that encompasses only about 1 tenth of 1 percent of the game's audience. If anything the "attorneyatlaw" has been completely on point with my views and the views of my peers.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162675/i-cant-do-it-i-cant-level-anymore-please-remove-the-veteran-ranks-now-instead-of-waiting
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150525/veteran-ranks-on-console-prepare-for-bad-reviews-round-2
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/181752/how-to-successfully-remove-the-veteran-ranking-system
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190178/veteran-ranks-are-never-being-removed
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/81793/veteran-rank-fail
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190212/here-is-why-i-think-zos-should-have-never-promised-to-remove-veteran-ranks
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190131/no-more-veteran-ranks-be-better-than-other-mmo-developers-listen-to-your-communityEdited by eventide03b14a_ESO on July 6, 2015 6:57PM:trollin:3 -
michaelb14a_ESO2✭✭✭✭pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »All the people trying to pin the blame on the 'entitlement culture' are missing the point entirely. This is about encouraging new blood to the game now and in the future. Here's a scenario:
PvE Guild from WoW wants to try another game. Guild Leader: "How about ESO? They've got leader boards right?". Guild Member: "nah, they've got that champion system thing, we'll never catch up".
And they will NEVER catch up, if guilds like Hodor for example continue to grind CP everyday in the meantime. And even if Hodor stopped for a year, it'd still take the new guild a year of grinding CP to get close to Hodor's times on the leader boards. And people will bang on about skill>CP, well if CP has no impact, why would these high end PvE guilds be asking for a minimum CP amount to join them now? Of course they make a difference.
Its totally understandable that if you don't play this game competitively, the CP system makes no impact to you. You might even enjoy seeing that vertical progression, even though it makes next to no difference to your game play. But for those that do play the game competitively, it makes a difference. Whether it be PvE or PvP, hence why this topic was started.
A simple solution would be to remove the parts of the CP system that affect combat effectiveness. Replace them with non essential perks that the less competitive gamer would appreciate more, unique emotes to unlock or something, I dunno. The competitive players will be be happy also cause they won't see themselves or others run away with an advantage based on how often you can afford to grind. Back to my original example, that WoW guild can now join ESO and give those leader boards a shot right after reaching endgame. Surely thats what ESO wants long term, more people playing the game.
But this is probably all falling on deaf ears because more likely then not, this CP gap has been carefully engineered to encourage xp pot purchases. Pretty simple business plan there.
One more time. There is MAX on CP. Your only issue is it takes a long time to get to...
Okay, I'll edit my scenario:
PvE Guild from WoW wants to try another game. Guild Leader: "How about ESO? They've got leader boards right?". Guild Member: "nah, they've got that champion system thing, we'll take 5 years to catch up".
Better? That'll sure offer them encouragement to join.
YES! Because the solutions are totally different. The goal then is to SHORTTEN that grossly overexaggerated "5 years".
Add even more and fun ways to gain exp
Give MORE exp --- which is confirmed coming.
Add exp granting content....
The problem is those railing against the CP system are focusing on the destination, NOT the journey... which is where the problem is.
There is no "fundamental" design problem with the CP system. In fact there is nothing wrong with the "system" at all. It's quite ordinary. So stop the hyperbole, and start asking the right questions.
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Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »@Enraged_Tiki_Torch when quest grinding what quest takes 20 minutes? honest quesion. Mostly recently I did the first 30 quests in vr stormhaven at 5:03 minute breakdown, I've never run into an actual 20 minute quest when quest grinding. (still trying for the 4:30 mark that was said way back in the day by ZoS). All enlightened plus xp scroll and in 2 hours 6 cp's killing some mobs along the way. If this bumps up to 12 it'll make a difference.
Does further xp balancing need to happen sure.
I have to agree. Another important point that is typically overlooked is that you should, and will be, killing a lot of mobs as you move through questing areas completing those quests. I can't think of any single quest that would normally take 20 minutes as you plow through the zones if trying to quest grind. Simply calling out the XP you earn on a turn-in sidesteps the issue of XP/hour, which is the right yardstick for that discussion, as you mentioned.
Beefing up the base quest XP (that then gets raised by XP potions, the subscription bonus (if subscribed), etc.) adds a decent raise in your XP/hour. Most games, however, don't reach the best XP when questing by dodging agro and killing the minimum amount of mobs in your path; generally, you're best off killing as many as humanly possible while minimizing the extra travel distance and speed impact on your route as a whole.
For example, stopping entirely to go hunt one tiger hiding under a tree 20 feet away... not smart. Nuking a tiger 5 feet ahead of you as you approach, without even needing to turn off the way you were going and not even stopping other than to quickly grab the loot off of it... is smart..I voted for him. I don't need to agree with everything he says to recognize his contributions to the community. *shrugs*
Games have to be enjoyable first and foremost. To survive and thrive, an MMO needs to be fun for existing players and accessible to new players. It isn't fun when time becomes more important than skill - unless hardcore grinders are your target audience, but I doubt this is what ZOS intended. It isn't accessible when a new player can't catch up in any reasonable amount of time. These are long-term problems ZOS needs to consider and prevent. It's good that we're talking about them.
Thank you, and especially moreso for understanding that just because people don't have the same point of view, their thoughts aren't automatically invalidated. Even when I don't agree with what someone's saying... I put forth an effort to try to at least get where they're coming from. Regardless if I still completely disagree at that point, I've learned something in doing so.
Now, I do absolutely, however, agree with you on the accessibility front. I hate doing this, but it would basically just be paraphrasing myself, not to just quote it. This isn't a difficult problem to address, in my opinion, and is being extremely overcomplicated in most of the discussions I've been reading on the forums here, and elsewhere. Here's how I think it breaks down, and how they can fairly keep it in check... numbers, of course, can always be tweaked.Attorneyatlawl wrote:Wow has lockout timers. ESO has RNG (random drop chances). Both result in the same statistical loot distribution, over time, and are different ways of doing the same thing but with less player annoyance by being strictly forbidden to play that content during a lockout.
Wow has new gear that immediately makes everything else you've ever done in the game or obtained for equipment obsolete and essentially worthless. ESO has beyond-extremely minor power increases on gear, with the changes providing more horizontal (different, but not numerically stronger) progression availability through new set bonus types, skills, and other facets.
Wow immediately sets everyone back to square one. It then requires everyone to start back up from scratch, repeating the same thing as the prior time period where top-end progression players speed through and gain their old power gap back in short order, while less competitive players are left in the dust and unable to in any way, shape, or form, including even being carried and playing a ludicrous amount of time per day, catch up if they didn't do it from the start. ESO provides such a small amount of extra raw power on the equipment that it could be considered zero statistically (see the math below).
The champion system is a big can of worms. Suffice to say, the first 300-400 points are important. The next couple of hundred will continue to gain moderately for many builds. Beyond that, you see a significant nosedive in how much they amplify your actual performance, both due to inherent relative diminishment and what parts of your combat they affect. I'll be doing a detailed post regarding this soon, but by and large, a simple "The first X number of champion points require less XP" that is raised every so often with patches over time should suffice.
For now we could have them say, "The first 120 champion points take less XP to earn" and then six months from now, "The first 225 champion points take less XP to earn" and so on, which would basically take care of the issue of power gaps when combined with the current enlightenment system that penalizes you after earning your first champion point in any given 24-hour period. Yes, the numbers are shiny and big. No, they don't make as giant a gap as it intuitively looks, when you boil it down to the facts after a moderate initial champion rank as described above.
Wow's system is by far worse if you are not a hardcore player, for allowing you to even attempt to "keep up with the Joneses". Doing this, quicker players get to stay ahead for their efforts, but it curbs how extreme the differences in raw character power can ever reach.Edited by Attorneyatlawl on July 6, 2015 7:17PM-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.0 -
pmn100b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »All the people trying to pin the blame on the 'entitlement culture' are missing the point entirely. This is about encouraging new blood to the game now and in the future. Here's a scenario:
PvE Guild from WoW wants to try another game. Guild Leader: "How about ESO? They've got leader boards right?". Guild Member: "nah, they've got that champion system thing, we'll never catch up".
And they will NEVER catch up, if guilds like Hodor for example continue to grind CP everyday in the meantime. And even if Hodor stopped for a year, it'd still take the new guild a year of grinding CP to get close to Hodor's times on the leader boards. And people will bang on about skill>CP, well if CP has no impact, why would these high end PvE guilds be asking for a minimum CP amount to join them now? Of course they make a difference.
Its totally understandable that if you don't play this game competitively, the CP system makes no impact to you. You might even enjoy seeing that vertical progression, even though it makes next to no difference to your game play. But for those that do play the game competitively, it makes a difference. Whether it be PvE or PvP, hence why this topic was started.
A simple solution would be to remove the parts of the CP system that affect combat effectiveness. Replace them with non essential perks that the less competitive gamer would appreciate more, unique emotes to unlock or something, I dunno. The competitive players will be be happy also cause they won't see themselves or others run away with an advantage based on how often you can afford to grind. Back to my original example, that WoW guild can now join ESO and give those leader boards a shot right after reaching endgame. Surely thats what ESO wants long term, more people playing the game.
But this is probably all falling on deaf ears because more likely then not, this CP gap has been carefully engineered to encourage xp pot purchases. Pretty simple business plan there.
One more time. There is MAX on CP. Your only issue is it takes a long time to get to...
Okay, I'll edit my scenario:
PvE Guild from WoW wants to try another game. Guild Leader: "How about ESO? They've got leader boards right?". Guild Member: "nah, they've got that champion system thing, we'll take 5 years to catch up".
Better? That'll sure offer them encouragement to join.
YES! Because the solutions are totally different. The goal then is to SHORTTEN that grossly overexaggerated "5 years".
Add even more and fun ways to gain exp
Give MORE exp --- which is confirmed coming.
Add exp granting content....
The problem is those railing against the CP system are focusing on the destination, NOT the journey... which is where the problem is.
There is no "fundamental" design problem with the CP system. In fact there is nothing wrong with the "system" at all. It's quite ordinary. So stop the hyperbole, and start asking the right questions.
And current top PvE guilds will continue to use all those extra mechanics you listed too. So what you're saying is, if new guilds want to compete on the leader boards in PvE, they've not only got to get to end game, they got to mindlessly grind whatever content gives the most xp (probably for a year minimum at least, likely more), JUST to get to the point they want to be, i.e. on a competitive level with the current top guilds. Sorry, but if you don't see that as a HUGE barrier to entry on this game, you can't be reasoned with.5 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If 5 years is too long then what isn't too long? Is 1 year enough for your mythical WOW guild? I've been on XBox for a month. Is that too long? But what about people that get it at Christmas? How will they ever compete?
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa.1 -
wrathofrraath✭✭✭It could be just a habit (possibly a bad one) but I always put a decimal before the last number of any number I see to relate it to how things were in 1.5, since ZOS straight up inflated the number values. 171 spell damage compared to 177, 17.1 spell damage compared to 17.7. +.6 spell damage, in my eyes spell damage is increasing by basically 1 point if that 17.7 rounds up to 18 and crafted gear adds another .2 increase (179) so basically its still rounding up to 18. Number inflation makes the min maxers mad I tell you.Vokul Lovaas - V16 Magicka Dragonknight
Vokul Vol - V16 Magicka Nightblade
Order of Mundus - NA DC
DK heals OP0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »I'm in the community. I don't hate veteran ranks. My 5 friends I play with don't hate them. I've never heard anyone in my 150+ person PVP guild complain about them. What I have heard are 2 dozen angry people I've never met try and speak for me on a message board that encompasses only about 1 tenth of 1 percent of the game's audience. If anything the "attorneyatlaw" has been completely on point with my views and the views of my peers.
The forums do represent people's views... but as you pointed out, they aren't representative of everyone's views. Reddit isn't. Nor are in-game guild chats. Zone chats alone, don't either. Even focused feedback meetings held, fail to encompass everything. You can't make a game by democracy. Heck, even real-world nations like the USA (my home, and birthplace of course) are technically republics. As a decision-maker, which is what ZOS is for their game here, all the feedback you can get has to be taken into account, as well as weighed both by its factual accuracy when statements are made and any opinion-oriented bias (generally not purposeful, even, but because someone says what they really think, but it is slanted by their perspective and/or experience). Then you think about it from their point of view, and weigh your options, while taking others' feedback in the same way and then ultimately deciding on your own merits and opinion as the people with the final say.
A quick example... let's say someone posts saying they're frustrated by "how slow it is to level in this game." They make a thread, saying "It takes 300 hours to get to veteran rank 1!". This isn't true for more than a tiny fraction of a percent of the playerbase. It isn't a lie, either, though. It probably indeed took them around that timespan (Why would they exaggerate? Even if they did, their opinion is genuine that they felt it took too long).
However, you would need to take any balance requests made in that kind of post by weighing the likeliest level of depth a poster stating this might have, and what they would have the most experience playing with in the game (statistically, it's likeliest that they would be a slower-going person that enjoys more exploration, socialization, and taking everything in, rather than theorycrafting with an Excel spreadsheet windowed alongside an R-serve and an automated data logger below, crunching the numbers of every last little detail).
Cliche as it is... "it's not that simple." You can't make a game by commitee, for the same reason the saying "too many cooks spoil the broth" is an enduring truism. "The community thinks" is an ambiguous thing to relate from any one source.Edited by Attorneyatlawl on July 6, 2015 7:15PM-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.1 -
Paradox✭✭✭✭danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »If 5 years is too long then what isn't too long? Is 1 year enough for your mythical WOW guild? I've been on XBox for a month. Is that too long? But what about people that get it at Christmas? How will they ever compete?
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
At its current rate, people with be at 3600 by the end of next year, if they continue to grind. People will be ahead of you by so far that you won't have a chance in hell in PvP or on the leaderboards in PvE.
But you continue to mock people. Mock away and provide no feedback. That's helping the discussion.Ebonheart Pact
@iHateReloads
Tank And Spank - DragonKnightI've quit the game until ZoS stops acting like the community are children, and start actually listening to us.1 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »@Enraged_Tiki_Torch when quest grinding what quest takes 20 minutes? honest quesion. Mostly recently I did the first 30 quests in vr stormhaven at 5:03 minute breakdown, I've never run into an actual 20 minute quest when quest grinding. (still trying for the 4:30 mark that was said way back in the day by ZoS). All enlightened plus xp scroll and in 2 hours 6 cp's killing some mobs along the way. If this bumps up to 12 it'll make a difference.
Does further xp balancing need to happen sure.
I have to agree. Another important point that is typically overlooked is that you should, and will be, killing a lot of mobs as you move through questing areas completing those quests. I can't think of any single quest that would normally take 20 minutes as you plow through the zones if trying to quest grind. Simply calling out the XP you earn on a turn-in sidesteps the issue of XP/hour, which is the right yardstick for that discussion, as you mentioned.
Beefing up the base quest XP (that then gets raised by XP potions, the subscription bonus (if subscribed), etc.) adds a decent raise in your XP/hour. Most games, however, don't reach the best XP when questing by dodging agro and killing the minimum amount of mobs in your path; generally, you're best off killing as many as humanly possible while minimizing the extra travel distance and speed impact on your route as a whole.
For example, stopping entirely to go hunt one tiger hiding under a tree 20 feet away... not smart. Nuking a tiger 5 feet ahead of you as you approach, without even needing to turn off the way you were going and not even stopping other than to quickly grab the loot off of it... is smart..I voted for him. I don't need to agree with everything he says to recognize his contributions to the community. *shrugs*
Games have to be enjoyable first and foremost. To survive and thrive, an MMO needs to be fun for existing players and accessible to new players. It isn't fun when time becomes more important than skill - unless hardcore grinders are your target audience, but I doubt this is what ZOS intended. It isn't accessible when a new player can't catch up in any reasonable amount of time. These are long-term problems ZOS needs to consider and prevent. It's good that we're talking about them.
Thank you, and especially moreso for understanding that just because people don't have the same point of view, their thoughts aren't automatically invalidated. Even when I don't agree with what someone's saying... I put forth an effort to try to at least get where they're coming from. Regardless if I still completely disagree at that point, I've learned something in doing so.
Now, I do absolutely, however, agree with you on the accessibility front. I hate doing this, but it would basically just be paraphrasing myself, not to just quote it. This isn't a difficult problem to address, in my opinion, and is being extremely overcomplicated in most of the discussions I've been reading on the forums here, and elsewhere. Here's how I think it breaks down, and how they can fairly keep it in check... numbers, of course, can always be tweaked.Attorneyatlawl wrote:Wow has lockout timers. ESO has RNG (random drop chances). Both result in the same statistical loot distribution, over time, and are different ways of doing the same thing but with less player annoyance by being strictly forbidden to play that content during a lockout.
Wow has new gear that immediately makes everything else you've ever done in the game or obtained for equipment obsolete and essentially worthless. ESO has beyond-extremely minor power increases on gear, with the changes providing more horizontal (different, but not numerically stronger) progression availability through new set bonus types, skills, and other facets.
Wow immediately sets everyone back to square one. It then requires everyone to start back up from scratch, repeating the same thing as the prior time period where top-end progression players speed through and gain their old power gap back in short order, while less competitive players are left in the dust and unable to in any way, shape, or form, including even being carried and playing a ludicrous amount of time per day, catch up if they didn't do it from the start. ESO provides such a small amount of extra raw power on the equipment that it could be considered zero statistically (see the math below).
The champion system is a big can of worms. Suffice to say, the first 300-400 points are important. The next couple of hundred will continue to gain moderately for many builds. Beyond that, you see a significant nosedive in how much they amplify your actual performance, both due to inherent relative diminishment and what parts of your combat they affect. I'll be doing a detailed post regarding this soon, but by and large, a simple "The first X number of champion points require less XP" that is raised every so often with patches over time.
For now we could have them say, "The first 120 champion points take less XP to earn" and then six months from now, "The first 225 champion points take less XP to earn" and so on, which would basically take care of the issue of power gaps when combined with the current enlightenment system that penalizes you after earning your first champion point in any given 24-hour period. Yes, the numbers are shiny and big. No, they don't make as giant a gap as it intuitively looks, when you boil it down to the facts after a moderate initial champion rank as described above. Wow's system is by far worse if you are not a hardcore player, for allowing you to even attempt to "keep up with the Joneses". Doing this, quicker players get to stay ahead for their efforts, but it curbs how extreme the differences in raw character power can ever reach.
Look I just want to know if you actually have some sort of insight or access that we don't. I thought that was the whole point. Your opinion is meaningless to me. I want answers from the devs.:trollin:0 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭Daniel and Seaber, how about some useful contribution for this community, your jealousy is not enough becoming an ambassador.0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »@Enraged_Tiki_Torch when quest grinding what quest takes 20 minutes? honest quesion. Mostly recently I did the first 30 quests in vr stormhaven at 5:03 minute breakdown, I've never run into an actual 20 minute quest when quest grinding. (still trying for the 4:30 mark that was said way back in the day by ZoS). All enlightened plus xp scroll and in 2 hours 6 cp's killing some mobs along the way. If this bumps up to 12 it'll make a difference.
Does further xp balancing need to happen sure.
I have to agree. Another important point that is typically overlooked is that you should, and will be, killing a lot of mobs as you move through questing areas completing those quests. I can't think of any single quest that would normally take 20 minutes as you plow through the zones if trying to quest grind. Simply calling out the XP you earn on a turn-in sidesteps the issue of XP/hour, which is the right yardstick for that discussion, as you mentioned.
Beefing up the base quest XP (that then gets raised by XP potions, the subscription bonus (if subscribed), etc.) adds a decent raise in your XP/hour. Most games, however, don't reach the best XP when questing by dodging agro and killing the minimum amount of mobs in your path; generally, you're best off killing as many as humanly possible while minimizing the extra travel distance and speed impact on your route as a whole.
For example, stopping entirely to go hunt one tiger hiding under a tree 20 feet away... not smart. Nuking a tiger 5 feet ahead of you as you approach, without even needing to turn off the way you were going and not even stopping other than to quickly grab the loot off of it... is smart..I voted for him. I don't need to agree with everything he says to recognize his contributions to the community. *shrugs*
Games have to be enjoyable first and foremost. To survive and thrive, an MMO needs to be fun for existing players and accessible to new players. It isn't fun when time becomes more important than skill - unless hardcore grinders are your target audience, but I doubt this is what ZOS intended. It isn't accessible when a new player can't catch up in any reasonable amount of time. These are long-term problems ZOS needs to consider and prevent. It's good that we're talking about them.
Thank you, and especially moreso for understanding that just because people don't have the same point of view, their thoughts aren't automatically invalidated. Even when I don't agree with what someone's saying... I put forth an effort to try to at least get where they're coming from. Regardless if I still completely disagree at that point, I've learned something in doing so.
Now, I do absolutely, however, agree with you on the accessibility front. I hate doing this, but it would basically just be paraphrasing myself, not to just quote it. This isn't a difficult problem to address, in my opinion, and is being extremely overcomplicated in most of the discussions I've been reading on the forums here, and elsewhere. Here's how I think it breaks down, and how they can fairly keep it in check... numbers, of course, can always be tweaked.Attorneyatlawl wrote:Wow has lockout timers. ESO has RNG (random drop chances). Both result in the same statistical loot distribution, over time, and are different ways of doing the same thing but with less player annoyance by being strictly forbidden to play that content during a lockout.
Wow has new gear that immediately makes everything else you've ever done in the game or obtained for equipment obsolete and essentially worthless. ESO has beyond-extremely minor power increases on gear, with the changes providing more horizontal (different, but not numerically stronger) progression availability through new set bonus types, skills, and other facets.
Wow immediately sets everyone back to square one. It then requires everyone to start back up from scratch, repeating the same thing as the prior time period where top-end progression players speed through and gain their old power gap back in short order, while less competitive players are left in the dust and unable to in any way, shape, or form, including even being carried and playing a ludicrous amount of time per day, catch up if they didn't do it from the start. ESO provides such a small amount of extra raw power on the equipment that it could be considered zero statistically (see the math below).
The champion system is a big can of worms. Suffice to say, the first 300-400 points are important. The next couple of hundred will continue to gain moderately for many builds. Beyond that, you see a significant nosedive in how much they amplify your actual performance, both due to inherent relative diminishment and what parts of your combat they affect. I'll be doing a detailed post regarding this soon, but by and large, a simple "The first X number of champion points require less XP" that is raised every so often with patches over time.
For now we could have them say, "The first 120 champion points take less XP to earn" and then six months from now, "The first 225 champion points take less XP to earn" and so on, which would basically take care of the issue of power gaps when combined with the current enlightenment system that penalizes you after earning your first champion point in any given 24-hour period. Yes, the numbers are shiny and big. No, they don't make as giant a gap as it intuitively looks, when you boil it down to the facts after a moderate initial champion rank as described above. Wow's system is by far worse if you are not a hardcore player, for allowing you to even attempt to "keep up with the Joneses". Doing this, quicker players get to stay ahead for their efforts, but it curbs how extreme the differences in raw character power can ever reach.
Look I just want to know if you actually have some sort of insight or access that we don't. I thought that was the whole point. Your opinion is meaningless to me. I want answers from the devs.
Thanks for being honest, at least, about not wanting to discuss anything and that your opinion is set in stone. You can find information about the Ambassador program here, then: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/173260/esotu-community-ambassador-program/p1 .Edited by Attorneyatlawl on July 6, 2015 7:19PM-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »I'm in the community. I don't hate veteran ranks. My 5 friends I play with don't hate them. I've never heard anyone in my 150+ person PVP guild complain about them. What I have heard are 2 dozen angry people I've never met try and speak for me on a message board that encompasses only about 1 tenth of 1 percent of the game's audience. If anything the "attorneyatlaw" has been completely on point with my views and the views of my peers.
The forums do represent people's views... but as you pointed out, they aren't representative of everyone's views. Reddit isn't. Nor are in-game guild chats. Zone chats alone, don't either. Even focused feedback meetings held, fail to encompass everything. You can't make a game by democracy. Heck, even real-world nations like the USA (my home, and birthplace of course) are technically republics. As a decision-maker, which is what ZOS is for their game here, all the feedback you can get has to be taken into account, as well as weighed both by its factual accuracy when statements are made and any opinion-oriented bias (generally not purposeful, even, but because someone says what they really think, but it is slanted by their perspective and/or experience). Then you think about it from their point of view, and weigh your options, while taking others' feedback in the same way and then ultimately deciding on your own merits and opinion as the people with the final say.
A quick example... let's say someone posts saying they're frustrated by "how slow it is to level in this game." They make a thread, saying "It takes 300 hours to get to veteran rank 1!". This isn't true for more than a tiny fraction of a percent of the playerbase. It isn't a lie, either, though. It probably indeed took them around that timespan (Why would they exaggerate? Even if they did, their opinion is genuine that they felt it took too long).
However, you would need to take any balance requests made in that kind of post by weighing the likeliest level of depth a poster stating this might have, and what they would have the most experience playing with in the game (statistically, it's likeliest that they would be a slower-going person that enjoys more exploration, socialization, and taking everything in, rather than theorycrafting with an Excel spreadsheet windowed alongside an R-serve and an automated data logger below, crunching the numbers of every last little detail).
Cliche as it is... "it's not that simple." You can't make a game by commitee, for the same reason the saying "too many cooks spoil the broth" is an enduring truism. "The community thinks" is an ambiguous thing to relate from any one source.
And my point is that it's a very unpopular thing. Just because someone hasn't been paying attention to exactly how unpopular it is doesn't make it any less so. More importantly they keep saying they are going to remove them. Yet they instead keep adding to them. This is very confusing to us and ZOS has already shown they lie and cannot be trusted. We are letting them know in no uncertain terms that as paying customers we have a limit to how much we are going to tolerate.:trollin:1 -
MissBizz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »@Enraged_Tiki_Torch when quest grinding what quest takes 20 minutes? honest quesion. Mostly recently I did the first 30 quests in vr stormhaven at 5:03 minute breakdown, I've never run into an actual 20 minute quest when quest grinding. (still trying for the 4:30 mark that was said way back in the day by ZoS). All enlightened plus xp scroll and in 2 hours 6 cp's killing some mobs along the way. If this bumps up to 12 it'll make a difference.
Does further xp balancing need to happen sure.
I have to agree. Another important point that is typically overlooked is that you should, and will be, killing a lot of mobs as you move through questing areas completing those quests. I can't think of any single quest that would normally take 20 minutes as you plow through the zones if trying to quest grind. Simply calling out the XP you earn on a turn-in sidesteps the issue of XP/hour, which is the right yardstick for that discussion, as you mentioned.
Beefing up the base quest XP (that then gets raised by XP potions, the subscription bonus (if subscribed), etc.) adds a decent raise in your XP/hour. Most games, however, don't reach the best XP when questing by dodging agro and killing the minimum amount of mobs in your path; generally, you're best off killing as many as humanly possible while minimizing the extra travel distance and speed impact on your route as a whole.
For example, stopping entirely to go hunt one tiger hiding under a tree 20 feet away... not smart. Nuking a tiger 5 feet ahead of you as you approach, without even needing to turn off the way you were going and not even stopping other than to quickly grab the loot off of it... is smart..I voted for him. I don't need to agree with everything he says to recognize his contributions to the community. *shrugs*
Games have to be enjoyable first and foremost. To survive and thrive, an MMO needs to be fun for existing players and accessible to new players. It isn't fun when time becomes more important than skill - unless hardcore grinders are your target audience, but I doubt this is what ZOS intended. It isn't accessible when a new player can't catch up in any reasonable amount of time. These are long-term problems ZOS needs to consider and prevent. It's good that we're talking about them.
Thank you, and especially moreso for understanding that just because people don't have the same point of view, their thoughts aren't automatically invalidated. Even when I don't agree with what someone's saying... I put forth an effort to try to at least get where they're coming from. Regardless if I still completely disagree at that point, I've learned something in doing so.
Now, I do absolutely, however, agree with you on the accessibility front. I hate doing this, but it would basically just be paraphrasing myself, not to just quote it. This isn't a difficult problem to address, in my opinion, and is being extremely overcomplicated in most of the discussions I've been reading on the forums here, and elsewhere. Here's how I think it breaks down, and how they can fairly keep it in check... numbers, of course, can always be tweaked.Attorneyatlawl wrote:Wow has lockout timers. ESO has RNG (random drop chances). Both result in the same statistical loot distribution, over time, and are different ways of doing the same thing but with less player annoyance by being strictly forbidden to play that content during a lockout.
Wow has new gear that immediately makes everything else you've ever done in the game or obtained for equipment obsolete and essentially worthless. ESO has beyond-extremely minor power increases on gear, with the changes providing more horizontal (different, but not numerically stronger) progression availability through new set bonus types, skills, and other facets.
Wow immediately sets everyone back to square one. It then requires everyone to start back up from scratch, repeating the same thing as the prior time period where top-end progression players speed through and gain their old power gap back in short order, while less competitive players are left in the dust and unable to in any way, shape, or form, including even being carried and playing a ludicrous amount of time per day, catch up if they didn't do it from the start. ESO provides such a small amount of extra raw power on the equipment that it could be considered zero statistically (see the math below).
The champion system is a big can of worms. Suffice to say, the first 300-400 points are important. The next couple of hundred will continue to gain moderately for many builds. Beyond that, you see a significant nosedive in how much they amplify your actual performance, both due to inherent relative diminishment and what parts of your combat they affect. I'll be doing a detailed post regarding this soon, but by and large, a simple "The first X number of champion points require less XP" that is raised every so often with patches over time.
For now we could have them say, "The first 120 champion points take less XP to earn" and then six months from now, "The first 225 champion points take less XP to earn" and so on, which would basically take care of the issue of power gaps when combined with the current enlightenment system that penalizes you after earning your first champion point in any given 24-hour period. Yes, the numbers are shiny and big. No, they don't make as giant a gap as it intuitively looks, when you boil it down to the facts after a moderate initial champion rank as described above. Wow's system is by far worse if you are not a hardcore player, for allowing you to even attempt to "keep up with the Joneses". Doing this, quicker players get to stay ahead for their efforts, but it curbs how extreme the differences in raw character power can ever reach.
Look I just want to know if you actually have some sort of insight or access that we don't. I thought that was the whole point. Your opinion is meaningless to me. I want answers from the devs.
@eventide03b14a_ESO Community Ambassadors are given the title for recognition for helping out (mostly on the forums) and welcoming members to the community. As stated in the official post describing community ambassadors, we have no direct access to the devs, nor do our opinions hold any more weight than anyone else's. The title is not meant as "someone who speaks for the players", rather just recognition of being helpful and informative. We do not find anything out before anyone else.Lone Wolf HelpFor the solo players who know, sometimes you just need a hand.PC | NA | AD-DC-EP | Discord2 -
michaelb14a_ESO2✭✭✭✭pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »All the people trying to pin the blame on the 'entitlement culture' are missing the point entirely. This is about encouraging new blood to the game now and in the future. Here's a scenario:
PvE Guild from WoW wants to try another game. Guild Leader: "How about ESO? They've got leader boards right?". Guild Member: "nah, they've got that champion system thing, we'll never catch up".
And they will NEVER catch up, if guilds like Hodor for example continue to grind CP everyday in the meantime. And even if Hodor stopped for a year, it'd still take the new guild a year of grinding CP to get close to Hodor's times on the leader boards. And people will bang on about skill>CP, well if CP has no impact, why would these high end PvE guilds be asking for a minimum CP amount to join them now? Of course they make a difference.
Its totally understandable that if you don't play this game competitively, the CP system makes no impact to you. You might even enjoy seeing that vertical progression, even though it makes next to no difference to your game play. But for those that do play the game competitively, it makes a difference. Whether it be PvE or PvP, hence why this topic was started.
A simple solution would be to remove the parts of the CP system that affect combat effectiveness. Replace them with non essential perks that the less competitive gamer would appreciate more, unique emotes to unlock or something, I dunno. The competitive players will be be happy also cause they won't see themselves or others run away with an advantage based on how often you can afford to grind. Back to my original example, that WoW guild can now join ESO and give those leader boards a shot right after reaching endgame. Surely thats what ESO wants long term, more people playing the game.
But this is probably all falling on deaf ears because more likely then not, this CP gap has been carefully engineered to encourage xp pot purchases. Pretty simple business plan there.
One more time. There is MAX on CP. Your only issue is it takes a long time to get to...
Okay, I'll edit my scenario:
PvE Guild from WoW wants to try another game. Guild Leader: "How about ESO? They've got leader boards right?". Guild Member: "nah, they've got that champion system thing, we'll take 5 years to catch up".
Better? That'll sure offer them encouragement to join.
YES! Because the solutions are totally different. The goal then is to SHORTTEN that grossly overexaggerated "5 years".
Add even more and fun ways to gain exp
Give MORE exp --- which is confirmed coming.
Add exp granting content....
The problem is those railing against the CP system are focusing on the destination, NOT the journey... which is where the problem is.
There is no "fundamental" design problem with the CP system. In fact there is nothing wrong with the "system" at all. It's quite ordinary. So stop the hyperbole, and start asking the right questions.
And current top PvE guilds will continue to use all those extra mechanics you listed too. So what you're saying is, if new guilds want to compete on the leader boards in PvE, they've not only got to get to end game, they got to mindlessly grind whatever content gives the most xp (probably for a year minimum at least, likely more), JUST to get to the point they want to be, i.e. on a competitive level with the current top guilds. Sorry, but if you don't see that as a HUGE barrier to entry on this game, you can't be reasoned with.
No, those existing "top comptitive" PVE guilds wouldn't be using those same mechanics since they would already be at "end game" (capped CP). Sooooo.... where is this barrier? The fact a competitive guild would have to spend ANY amount of time getting to end game? In order to be... COMPETITIVE?1
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