The Day ESO Dies

OdinForge

When Deltia drops a post like this, it's time for ZOS to stand up and make some changes.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Misquote acknowledged. I should have said "The Day ESO Dies" instead of "The Death of ESO". With that said, "The Day ESO Dies" is the title of the post and was what I was referencing.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

OdinForge wrote: »

When Deltia drops a post like this, it's time for ZOS to stand up and make some changes.

No it isn't. He isn't King of Tamriel. He's a dude with an Internet TV show. Do you argue for the NFL to "stand up and make some changes" when Skip Bayless writes an article? It's just the opinion of one man who happens to make a living off of an activity, and saw an opportunity to bring more awareness to his brand.

Bromburak

proclaims his builds to be ideal (causing many to think they are the only viable builds)
and uses so many add-ons that a trained rabbit could solo a VR dungeon with them.

Dude, when you say that people think he is the king of tamriel just because of his videos and that his builds are the only viable for them then you clearly make assumptions. For my self I look his videos because someone is sharing the same interest, playing a game I love. I still play a different build.

And if you have an addon allergy you don't need to play with them. How about that?

OdinForge

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

When Deltia drops a post like this, it's time for ZOS to stand up and make some changes.

No it isn't. He isn't King of Tamriel. He's a dude with an Internet TV show. Do you argue for the NFL to "stand up and make some changes" when Skip Bayless writes an article? It's just the opinion of one man who happens to make a living off of an activity, and saw an opportunity to bring more awareness to his brand.

You seem upset.

I can't help you.

Attorneyatlawl

OdinForge wrote: »

When Deltia drops a post like this, it's time for ZOS to stand up and make some changes.

With all due respect, he is a great performer and provides some popular streams. It's a great thing for the community, and a valuable service. But both his and Erlex's views are without any proof that a proper, factual analysis can support. While no one person is generally going to have the full picture outside of a handful of in-company gameplay designers and a likely single-digit number of players, even if you dig into the numbers far, far deeper than the more broadly known people that publicize testing, or re-post builds they overheard in-game do... there's more than a bit left out of the original post in this thread. Numbers are a fascinating thing, really. They, themselves, can be presented in a lot of ways, but on their own do not lie or mislead. However, the way they're framed... that can make a monumental difference as to how well they're interpretted and the actual, practical impact they tell of.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1988011/#Comment_1988011

You can see my preliminary layout of thoughts on this at that link above. For this thread, I will just quote and excerpt a small portion of it, with minor abbreviation and word insertions to clarify for readability out of context:

Attorneyatlawl wrote:

For gear, if anyone truly believes that, somehow, under a half of one percent in stats, which equates to typically under a fifteenth of one percent in damage/healing output or other combat performance, is gimping them... don't. That's not anyone's problem. See below for proof:



The entire 5-piece set will differ by a grand total in this example, by 4 magicka recovery, 33 max magicka, and 6 spell damage, before minor percentage boosts such as a spell pot (20%, so you'd end up with an extra 7.2 spell damage rating here). A player changing from the V12, to the V14 versions of this gear, would jump to approximately 7000 healing on a Blessing of Protection spell, from a prior value of 6991. That number is 1.00128x of what they had before. What does this mean? For the less mathematically inclined... that means you are gaining about 1.3... tenths... of ONE percent. As you can probably imagine... it's statistically nothing, and essentially so small it could easily be mistaken for a margin of error/near-rounding difference. That's why, even when V12 gear hit... I still wore almost entirely V10, even when doing this staggering DPS back then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar95AyLP1aU

And that character is an Imperial... so it doesn't have the shiny 9% maximum magicka and 7% flame damage (back then, it acted as a spell power bonus rather than a flat damage percentage boost, but nevertheless... it would have been substantial) passives, nor did it back then. The DPS shown there was an average for me, not a peak. My best runs hit upwards of another 10% higher, and on the other bosses such as the Stone Atronarch the numbers were only about 10-12% shy of what I would get on the Storm Atronarch in a given run.

The champion system is a big can of worms. Suffice to say, the first 300-400 points are important. The next couple of hundred will continue to gain moderately for many builds. Beyond that, you see a significant nosedive in how much they amplify your actual performance, both due to inherent relative diminishment and what parts of your combat they affect. I'll be doing a detailed post regarding this soon, but by and large, a simple "The first X number of champion points require less XP" that is raised every so often with patches, for now say "The first 120 champion points take less XP to earn" and then six months from now, "The first 225 champion points take less XP to earn" and so on would basically take care of the issue of power gaps when combined with the current enlightenment system that penalizes you after earning your first champion point in any given 24-hour period. Yes, the numbers are shiny and big. No, they don't make as giant a gap as it intuitively looks, when you boil it down to the facts after a moderate initial champion rank as described above. Wow's system is by far worse if you are not a hardcore player, for allowing you to even attempt to "keep up with the Joneses".

Numbers are fine and dandy... but don't be fooled by the hype: all the best gear and fractions of fractions of a percent don't matter if you don't know how to use them properly. Without stat/character power differences being orders of magnitude apart... your skill is what makes it happen at the end of the day.

Fin.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I've been lurking here in this thread since Friday. Just wanted folks to know its not being ignored.

Mr. Burns: "Ex-cellent."
All views are important to take into consideration, agree, disagree, or "don't understand where someone's coming from to the extent you wonder if it was a satire"... there's almost always something to be gleaned.

"It's not what I don't know, that we should be concerned about. It's the things that we don't know, we don't know, which worry me."
(Beats me where it originated from... but it's an apt concept. )

(Edited to fix a broken formatting tag.)

rb2001

I feel like the demands of the player base as an amalgam are nothing short of impossible.

It seems that the global desire, in summation is the following:

-endless progression and increase of power
-everyone is in lockstep and gets stronger at the same rate, regardless of how much effort/time they put in to it
-I get stronger than everyone else, because I'm special, but no one can get stronger than me ("it's unfair")
-endless new strength "levels", but don't want to grind vet levels (wth?)
-endless new progression, but don't want champion points (wth?)
-endlessly get stronger, but the game never to get too easy (wth?)


I feel bad for ZOS, to be honest.

They have made a really cool, unique MMO that plays to its own beat.

In the attempt to solve some of these desires, they have, in my opinion, shot themselves in the foot by going down a path that is impossible.

There is no way to please all of you PVPers, meta gamers, etc. in a way that lets you keep getting stronger than each other, but then no one gets stronger than you "unfairly or too fast".

There is no way to have endless progression without things getting too easy. There is no way to have PVP and PVE systems play along with each other when endless progression systems, half-baked, are in place.


My intention is to express that I see too many mixed goals here amongst the player base, and it seems like everyone wants to be the best, but no one else other than them can be the best faster than they can (this is an impossible concept).

Someone has to be better. Naturally, it's going to be the people that have more time to spend on it, as it is with everything in life.


What would you have ZOS do? Make it so that you can create a character, pay 100 dollars and be at max current progression? What's the point?

The whole battle level system is flawed by design. What is the point of being at greater progression if a level 10 can come there and be at your progression level?


My suggestion would give most people a headache, because most MMO players are so steeped in "MMO logic" that they cannot see a new route.

There shouldn't be any levels. You don't need levels in a game to have varying skill/proficiencies and complex skill systems. Endless progression shouldn't really be a concept. Rather, it should be like life. The things you use, you get and stay good at. The things you stop using, you get worse at.

The whole thing should be organic and realtime.


It should not be the following (but this is what it is):

"get to max;
I'm bored;
I want more content!;
new content and progression possible?
I hate new levels!;
grind through it ASAP to be as strong as everyone else!;
hey now everyone is as strong as me, and it feels just like before, but at least I have this new armor, right?!;
holy there's nothing more to do;
I'm so angry;
I'm going to write a post about how long ZOS takes to make content;
oh, wow, new levels?
I hate those!;
let's go grind them out".

Rinse. Repeat.

Pman85

who ever pushes this content out needs to dual wield whips and start the beatings. The beatings should continue until all these big changes actually happen. Getting rid of VR but wasting time and effort on more levels kinda pisses me off, as a gamer/player and as a worker in a corporate environment. Looking at it from this side is baffling to say the least

THEDKEXPERIENCE

rb2001 wrote: »

I feel like the demands of the player base as an amalgam are nothing short of impossible.

It seems that the global desire, in summation is the following:

-endless progression and increase of power
-everyone is in lockstep and gets stronger at the same rate, regardless of how much effort/time they put in to it
-I get stronger than everyone else, because I'm special, but no one can get stronger than me ("it's unfair")
-endless new strength "levels", but don't want to grind vet levels (wth?)
-endless new progression, but don't want champion points (wth?)
-endlessly get stronger, but the game never to get too easy (wth?)


I feel bad for ZOS, to be honest.

They have made a really cool, unique MMO that plays to its own beat.

In the attempt to solve some of these desires, they have, in my opinion, shot themselves in the foot by going down a path that is impossible.

There is no way to please all of you PVPers, meta gamers, etc. in a way that lets you keep getting stronger than each other, but then no one gets stronger than you "unfairly or too fast".

There is no way to have endless progression without things getting too easy. There is no way to have PVP and PVE systems play along with each other when endless progression systems, half-baked, are in place.


My intention is to express that I see too many mixed goals here amongst the player base, and it seems like everyone wants to be the best, but no one else other than them can be the best faster than they can (this is an impossible concept).

Someone has to be better. Naturally, it's going to be the people that have more time to spend on it, as it is with everything in life.


What would you have ZOS do? Make it so that you can create a character, pay 100 dollars and be at max current progression? What's the point?

The whole battle level system is flawed by design. What is the point of being at greater progression if a level 10 can come there and be at your progression level?


My suggestion would give most people a headache, because most MMO players are so steeped in "MMO logic" that they cannot see a new route.

There shouldn't be any levels. You don't need levels in a game to have varying skill/proficiencies and complex skill systems. Endless progression shouldn't really be a concept. Rather, it should be like life. The things you use, you get and stay good at. The things you stop using, you get worse at.

The whole thing should be organic and realtime.


It should not be the following (but this is what it is):

"get to max;
I'm bored;
I want more content!;
new content and progression possible?
I hate new levels!;
grind through it ASAP to be as strong as everyone else!;
hey now everyone is as strong as me, and it feels just like before, but at least I have this new armor, right?!;
holy there's nothing more to do;
I'm so angry;
I'm going to write a post about how long ZOS takes to make content;
oh, wow, new levels?
I hate those!;
let's go grind them out".

Rinse. Repeat.

I love you.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

wrathofrraath wrote: »

./lute

Bye, bye ZOS's champion pie
Rode my senche to the zombies but the zombies were dry
And them good ole boys were drinking psijic to grind
Singin' this'll be the day that it dies

No only is that brilliant.

But is also finally, after five loooooooooong days, got that "You're So Cool" by Hans Zimmer out of my head; its been there for almost a week thanks to a TV ad on the Food Channel.

If I could vote you Awesome twice I would.

All The Best

louweezi2preub18_ESO

rb2001 wrote: »

I feel like the demands of the player base as an amalgam are nothing short of impossible.

I feel bad for ZOS, to be honest.

They have made a really cool, unique MMO that plays to its own beat.

This

sadownik

louweezi2preub18_ESO wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

I feel like the demands of the player base as an amalgam are nothing short of impossible.

I feel bad for ZOS, to be honest.

They have made a really cool, unique MMO that plays to its own beat.

This

Sadly nothing much unique in gear grind.

Nifty2g

The question is, is it too late to save ESO? I'm beginning to believe so unless we see some changes very soon and some content. Here is hoping they provide what we want when Imperial City announcement is made. And here is hoping Wrothgar etc come with that update. But I'm doubting it at this point I really am

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Nifty2g wrote: »

The question is, is it too late to save ESO?

Save it from what?

Tonnopesce

Soo deltia basically started a Sxxtstorm and now he is hiding enjoing the fact that no matter how his "fans" will support evrything that came out of his mouth...

Nifty2g

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

The question is, is it too late to save ESO?

Save it from what?

The content is failing, the champion system was a huge failure we all looked forward to, it's just been downhill for awhile.

Seaber

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

The question is, is it too late to save ESO?

Save it from what?

from ZOS

sadownik

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

The question is, is it too late to save ESO?

Save it from what?

Around a week ago when i was logged in on my low lvl char in dc to my surprise ive met the gy iwas running dungeons on that same cahracter 3 or 4 times before. Each time i just asked for invite - he was messaging in zone chat.

This is lvl 8 zone - practicly starter zone - ask youurself what are the chances to meet someone in the same instance 3 or 4 times in a row in a highly populated MMO with megaserver tech.

rb2001

Nifty2g wrote: »

The question is, is it too late to save ESO? I'm beginning to believe so unless we see some changes very soon and some content. Here is hoping they provide what we want when Imperial City announcement is made. And here is hoping Wrothgar etc come with that update. But I'm doubting it at this point I really am

I think it's absolutely still fun to play, as long as you (as in the general you) stop worrying so much about what other players are doing and capable of, stop being entitled to be as good as other players who have been here longer and put more time in.

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

It is folly! This is not targeted at you, @Nifty2g, just to be clear, but rather to expand on my earlier post.

To speak for myself, I have a lot left to see in the game, am excited for new content, and am actually enjoying the vet and champ systems. I don't feel like I have to progress in them. They are extra. When I progress in them, I am pleased. I don't seek to grind them. No one makes you do that except for yourself, and then you blame ZOS.

The hilarity of it all is that ZOS did not intend people to grind these systems out. They were intended for long term, slow development, that you gain automatically by playing, not grind them and then go "hey what do I play now?".

People will ruin just about everything for themselves.

Anyhow, new content will be great. ZOS is most certainly aware of the entire forum being on fire from this vet/champ business, and I imagine they will sort it out in time.

technohic

Deltia wrote: »

Hello ESO Forums,

Stuff
VR 16?

Stuff

Champion Progression

More Stuff

Why I Give a ****

More stuff

Thank you for all of this. I have never agreed with anyone more than I do your post here.

sadownik

rb2001 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

The question is, is it too late to save ESO? I'm beginning to believe so unless we see some changes very soon and some content. Here is hoping they provide what we want when Imperial City announcement is made. And here is hoping Wrothgar etc come with that update. But I'm doubting it at this point I really am

I think it's absolutely still fun to play, as long as you (as in the general you) stop worrying so much about what other players are doing and capable of, stop being entitled to be as good as other players who have been here longer and put more time in.

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

It is folly! This is not targeted at you, @Nifty2g, just to be clear, but rather to expand on my earlier post.

To speak for myself, I have a lot left to see in the game, am excited for new content, and am actually enjoying the vet and champ systems. I don't feel like I have to progress in them. They are extra. When I progress in them, I am pleased. I don't seek to grind them. No one makes you do that except for yourself, and then you blame ZOS.

The hilarity of it all is that ZOS did not intend people to grind these systems out. They were intended for long term, slow development, that you gain automatically by playing, not grind them and then go "hey what do I play now?".

People will ruin just about everything for themselves.

Anyhow, new content will be great. ZOS is most certainly aware of the entire forum being on fire from this vet/champ business, and I imagine they will sort it out in time.

So you dare to compare hours of grinding to mastery of chess? Are you insane?

Seaber

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

LtCrunch

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I've been lurking here in this thread since Friday. Just wanted folks to know its not being ignored.

Considering this is the biggest community backlash I've ever seen about one of the decisions ZOS has made, I would certainly hope it wasn't being ignored.

rb2001

sadownik wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

The question is, is it too late to save ESO? I'm beginning to believe so unless we see some changes very soon and some content. Here is hoping they provide what we want when Imperial City announcement is made. And here is hoping Wrothgar etc come with that update. But I'm doubting it at this point I really am

I think it's absolutely still fun to play, as long as you (as in the general you) stop worrying so much about what other players are doing and capable of, stop being entitled to be as good as other players who have been here longer and put more time in.

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

It is folly! This is not targeted at you, @Nifty2g, just to be clear, but rather to expand on my earlier post.

To speak for myself, I have a lot left to see in the game, am excited for new content, and am actually enjoying the vet and champ systems. I don't feel like I have to progress in them. They are extra. When I progress in them, I am pleased. I don't seek to grind them. No one makes you do that except for yourself, and then you blame ZOS.

The hilarity of it all is that ZOS did not intend people to grind these systems out. They were intended for long term, slow development, that you gain automatically by playing, not grind them and then go "hey what do I play now?".

People will ruin just about everything for themselves.

Anyhow, new content will be great. ZOS is most certainly aware of the entire forum being on fire from this vet/champ business, and I imagine they will sort it out in time.

So you dare to compare hours of grinding to mastery of chess? Are you insane?

Don't be so willingly obtuse.

You are certainly aware that I used the example as an mechanical analogy (highlighting that they are both something that takes time to do, and another person coming along and expecting to have it without spending the time).

No where did I directly infer that the content of the analogy (playing chess) was anything like grinding (other than in the time mechanic explained in brackets above).

LtCrunch

TheEmoVampire wrote: »

so because people play the game, they should be as powerful as a lv 1 newbie? why is everyone complaining about people with more game time being more powerful? I don't see the problem. and as far as veteran ranks go, i don't see the problem with those either! I mean boo hoo welcome to TESOTU one of the very few games you actually have to play to get any where, that's what games are for, progression. you will be taking a lot of time to get to VR 14 soon to be 16 because your grinding, but here's a newsflash this is not Destiny, you have to play the game to progress (as in do quest pvp that stuff, not sit around in the same area for 600 hours killing the same enemies over and over and again, no wonder ya'll don't like playing the game).

Vet ranks are hollow progression. I want meaningful progression.

rb2001

Brandalf wrote: »

TheEmoVampire wrote: »

so because people play the game, they should be as powerful as a lv 1 newbie? why is everyone complaining about people with more game time being more powerful? I don't see the problem. and as far as veteran ranks go, i don't see the problem with those either! I mean boo hoo welcome to TESOTU one of the very few games you actually have to play to get any where, that's what games are for, progression. you will be taking a lot of time to get to VR 14 soon to be 16 because your grinding, but here's a newsflash this is not Destiny, you have to play the game to progress (as in do quest pvp that stuff, not sit around in the same area for 600 hours killing the same enemies over and over and again, no wonder ya'll don't like playing the game).

Vet ranks are hollow progression. I want meaningful progression.

Join a book club.

Edit: That was sarcasm. I actually agree with you, and I want meaningful progression too. The thing is, the vet ranks aren't really intended as anything more than an extra layer on top, while you complete more quests.

Bromburak

rb2001 wrote: »

There is no way to please all of you PVPers, meta gamers, etc. in a way that lets you keep getting stronger than each other, but then no one gets stronger than you "unfairly or too fast".

Because they have never calculated the imbalance that are caused by an architecture that is treating PvE and PvP the same way. This will always result in severe side effects. The new blocking mechanics are another example that confirm this because it has a totally different impact on PvE and PvP mode.

However, personally I still hope that ZOS will re evaluate certain changes and take some of very constructive threads in this forum serious and also I hope that Eric Wrobel will give us more details and explains why they make decisions like that.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

The question is, is it too late to save ESO?

Save it from what?

Bad Management Decisions?

Whatever the gameplay mechanic behind Veteran Ranks they are an abomination.

I spend untold hours and 50 odd levels fighting for Ebonheart Pact AGAINST AD and DC, and then because (apparently) Zos are too lazy to add REAL end-game content I spend even more hours and 14 Vet Ranks fighting FOR the very people I spent 50 levels fighting against!

It totally ruins any hope of game-world immersion, and wholly undermines the AvAvA dynamic that - for many - was a major selling point of the game.

The day I started Cadwells Silver was the day I learned to hate (and I do mean HATE) this game. Which angers me more than I can express without risking a ban, because I really, really, really want to love this game - and in fact for those 1st 50 levels I did indeed fall in love with this game, playing it exclusively and leaving all my other games hanging.

The IP of Elder Scrolls deserves and demands so much more that Cadwells.

It was, and remains, a cheap and lazy cop-out.

Then to compound the Bad Management Decision (BMD) of including VR in the first place ZOS then spend months telling the playerbase that VR are being removed.

The they throw in a third BMD - totally ignoring the PC Playerbase (the people who had been paying their salaries for a year or more) during the run in to Console Release; and fobbing us off with "Soon".

And then when "Soon" finally arrives they throw in the most monumental BMD imaginable and tell us they are ADDING more Vet Ranks.

I've only been here 3 months listening to the "soon" promises and the "we are removing VR" lies.

Imagine how much worse it is for someone who has been here since Beta.

All The Best

Attorneyatlawl

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.

SLy_Kyti

@Attorneyatlawl

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

When Deltia drops a post like this, it's time for ZOS to stand up and make some changes.

...far deeper than the more broadly known people that publicize testing, or re-post builds they overheard in-game do...

(source- http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1988302/#Comment_1988302)

Derisive much? Cutting heads off to look taller is opprobrious. As you mentioned No one absolutely knows the details concerning the number crunching . Which nullifies your responses as well.

Posters here took the time to thoughtfully consider this threads ramifications and are engaging in dialog (however meaningful that is to some), whether the numbers are absolutes or mere supposition. As evidenced by the 20 odd pages we have something to say. I appreciate the opportunity ZOS has allowed, to do so. I also am thankful that @delita broached the subject. Even given sanctimonious responses from others such as "/fin" aside.

________________________________________

Many people have left this game and more will follow. They may have the numbers wrong in their heads, but their experiences speak much louder. With the level cap raised to v12, after leveling, half my guild left the game. There was nothing else to do. Craglorn & vr14 were not enough to win them back. More left after doing that meager content....on it goes...

• Raising the level cap,
• erasing end game items worth,
• allowing CP gains to outweigh skill
• not providing a way to close the CP gap beyond Crown Shop purchases
• changing gameplay without adding content

These are what we are talking about. Numbers aside. These are the death knell, the harbinger of the end.