The Day ESO Dies

BigInGlenumbra

Robbmrp wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to give us your feedback, and for keeping it constructive. We'll be sure to pass this along to the appropriate teams to read over.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, what good does this really do to pass on? The things that @Deltia is mentioning isn't anything new with the Champion System that the MAJORITY of the player base has been screaming about since March 2nd 2015....

It clearly doesn't look like anyone over there really cares about anything other than selling XP Pots in the Crown store now. Why else would new VR levels have been added to "supposedly" be removed later?

Just as many others have mentioned time and time again, VR levels aren't going anywhere.....

I think they mean that they're passing it along to show not only more criticisms or strengthened arguments against the CP system, but also the fact that more and more people, including the most popular ESO gamer Deltia, are recognizing the problems with the CP system.

I get your sentiment, but I think it's really bad to blame the devs for AT LEAST looking into this considering there are more and more people against the CP system.

Also keep in mind ZOS had reason to ignore the CP system or anything else for a while considering they were dealing with console release and the upcoming content.

IcyDeadPeople

A simple tweak that could alleviate many concerns is adjusting Enlightenment so it stacks an indefinite number of days, or at least a few months instead of only 12 days.

While enlightened it is easy for anyone to earn a CP every 20-30 minutes or so, and if hardcore grinding you can get one every 10 minutes.

If you get busy with work or need to a break from the game for whatever reason and return after a few months, you would easily be able to "catch up" to most players in Cyrodiil. Same goes for anyone who just wants to play the game every day without worrying about grinding. You can easily earn at least 100-200k XP per day just playing normally in PVP or PVE.

With daily Enlightenment at the current 1CP per day, by increasing the duration it would be possible for anyone who had a VR14 since 1.6 launched (on March 3) to catch up to 196 champion points as of today, simply by playing the game, without grinding:

(126 days since March 3, 126 daily points from enlightenment + 70 initial CP = 196),

or 375 CP by Jan 1 2016
(305 days + 70 initial CP = 380).

It's not the highest certainly, but it is on a par with most players. And instead of feeling like you have this Mt. Everest to climb to reach 3600 CP and finally be done with it, players would have a much more achievable short term goal of simply using up stored enlightenment.

If it were deemed necessary to boost Enlightenment further, it could be increased to 2CP per day in this scenario, and most players could reach Champion Rank 322 as of today though questing or PVP, without grinding:

(126 days since March 3, 252 enlightenment pool + 70 initial CP = 322)

or 680 CP by Jan 1, 2016
(2 CP @ 305 days + 70 initial CP = 680)

Players who have been hardcore grinding out 5-10 CP daily since March 3 are of course going to have much higher Champion rank by Jan 1 2016, and I think it is reasonable to expect this. However, by extending enlightenment this way, players who don't wish to grind can remain relatively competitive over time.

There would still be a huge disparity over time for people who are brand new to the game, unless enlightenment was extended further to apply to people who did not have an account since March 3.

As an alternative, if there is a concern about people earning CP too quickly without subscribing or spending money in the Crown store, the increase to two points daily enlightenment could perhaps be provided as a benefit of being ESO Plus subscriber.
.

BigInGlenumbra

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I believe a simple tweak that would alleviate many concerns is adjusting Enlightenment so that it stacks an indefinite number of days, or at least a few months instead of only 12 days.

While enlightened it is easy for anyone to earn a CP every 20-30 minutes or so, and if hardcore grinding you can get one every 10 minutes.

If I get busy with work and need to a break from the game for a few months and return, I would easily be able to "catch up" to most players in Cyrodiil. Same goes for anyone who just wants to play the game every day without worrying about grinding. You can easily earn at least 100k XP per day just playing normally in PVP or PVE.

By increasing the amount of Enlightenment equivalent to two points per day instead of one, for example, it would be very easy for anyone who has had an account since 1.6 launched (on March 3) to get up to 252 champion points as of today.

It's not the highest certainly, but it is on a par with most players.

There would still be a huge disparity over time for people who are brand new to the game, unless enlightenment was extended further to apply to people who did not have an account since March 3.
.

The problem is that grinding mobs is far more efficient to gain XP and thus CP than questing or PvPing, making "Elightenment" pretty useless in its current state.

Also, it still isn't enough to close the gap in time between a person who has played for 3 years and a player who has played for 1 year. You still need plenty of hours invested to be equal to the 3 year player.

By that time I would just leave to play a game that actually has better PvP and I still don't have to spend over half a year and STILL not be competitive.

Enlightenment is pretty stupid imo.

IcyDeadPeople

BigInGlenumbra wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

A simple tweak that could alleviate many concerns is adjusting Enlightenment so it stacks an indefinite number of days, or at least a few months instead of only 12 days.

While enlightened it is easy for anyone to earn a CP every 20-30 minutes or so, and if hardcore grinding you can get one every 10 minutes.

If you get busy with work or need to a break from the game for whatever reason and return after a few months, you would easily be able to "catch up" to most players in Cyrodiil. Same goes for anyone who just wants to play the game every day without worrying about grinding. You can easily earn at least 100-200k XP per day just playing normally in PVP or PVE.

With daily Enlightenment at the current 1CP per day, by increasing the duration it would be possible for anyone who had a VR14 since 1.6 launched (on March 3) to catch up to 196 champion points as of today, simply by playing the game, without grinding:

(126 days since March 3, 126 daily points from enlightenment + 70 initial CP = 196),

or 375 CP by Jan 1 2016
(305 days + 70 initial CP = 380).

It's not the highest certainly, but it is on a par with most players. And instead of feeling like you have this Mt. Everest to climb to reach 3600 CP and finally be done with it, players would have a much more achievable short term goal of simply using up stored enlightenment.

If it were deemed necessary to boost Enlightenment further, it could be increased to 2CP per day in this scenario, and most players could reach Champion Rank 322 as of today though questing or PVP, without grinding:

(126 days since March 3, 252 enlightenment pool + 70 initial CP = 322)

or 680 CP by Jan 1, 2016
(2 CP @ 305 days + 70 initial CP = 680)

Players who have been hardcore grinding out 5-10 CP daily since March 3 are of course going to have much higher Champion rank by Jan 1 2016, and I think it is reasonable to expect this. However, by extending enlightenment this way, players who don't wish to grind can remain relatively competitive over time.

There would still be a huge disparity over time for people who are brand new to the game, unless enlightenment was extended further to apply to people who did not have an account since March 3.

As an alternative, if there is a concern about people earning CP too quickly without subscribing or spending money in the Crown store, the increase to two points daily enlightenment could perhaps be provided as a benefit of being ESO Plus subscriber.

The problem is that grinding mobs is far more efficient to gain XP and thus CP than questing or PvPing, making "Elightenment" pretty useless in its current state.

Also, it still isn't enough to close the gap in time between a person who has played for 3 years and a player who has played for 1 year. You still need plenty of hours invested to be equal to the 3 year player.

Enlightenment works because you don't need to grind mobs. Hardcore grinders can earn at most 2-3CP per hour. While enlightened you can earn CP at the same rate, just playing the game normally without grinding.

The only problems with enlightenment as currently implemented are (1) it only stacks for 12 days and (2) you only earn 1 CP per day (equivalent to 126 champion points since March 3 + 70 initial CP).

If enlightenment were extended as described above, you won't catch up to someone who has been grinding 10 hours every day since March 3, but you will catch up to most players (roughly 200-300 CP).

James-Wayne

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I've been lurking here in this thread since Friday. Just wanted folks to know its not being ignored.

You knew dropping the V16 bomb would generate this discussion didn't you sneaky sneaky ZOS but I guess it good for you to get this perspective on how they feel about it to better understand how to move forward....

....you haven't discussed what YOUR really doing yet but I guess this tactic was done so you can fine tune your IC presentation right

I have faith in ya so keep doing what your doing!

trimsic_ESO

ESO would have died if there were no character progression at all.

I've played GW2 for about 12-14 months. In this game there is almost no character progression. So if you stop the game for 6 months and then come back, you will find the game almost unchanged. That's not a problem if you're in the position of the person who comes back, but imagine how the people who stayed in the game feel like. This game is boring because there is nothing else to do than doing the same thing again and again, day after day. At least in ESO our character makes some progress, and becomes a bit stronger owing to the champion system, and that's better than nothing.

This being said, ESO lacks some shorter term progression mechanics, like new stuff we could obtain in new zones, be it PVE, PVP, or both.

MMOs need a progression system. This is what keeps people motivated at doing something in such games. But MMOs also need a season system, so that the progression can be done step by step. This way, the gap between the people who can grind and the people who can't (lack of time) remains under control. Then, there can't be a situation where a few players who have 1000 CP can kill easily anyone else who does not have so many CP yet. And player's skills remain the most important key factor in a combat.

The champion system is an opportunity for the future of the game, but without a season system with new gear and new contents, yes it will die.

sagitter

I think that vr levels shoudln t be removed. You can get 1-50 in less than 1 day.Ofc there is cp system but isn't good for itemization or friend leveling.
It feels like real leveling starts at Vr level, before it's like a quick storyline.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

ESO would have died if there were no character progression at all.

I've played GW2 for about 12-14 months. In this game there is almost no character progression. So if you stop the game for 6 months and then come back, you will find the game almost unchanged. That's not a problem if you're in the position of the person who comes back, but imagine how the people who stayed in the game feel like. This game is boring because there is nothing else to do than doing the same thing again and again, day after day. At least in ESO our character makes some progress, and becomes a bit stronger owing to the champion system, and that's better than nothing.

This being said, ESO lacks some shorter term progression mechanics, like new stuff we could obtain in new zones, be it PVE, PVP, or both.

MMOs need a progression system. This is what keeps people motivated at doing something in such games. But MMOs also need a season system, so that the progression can be done step by step. This way, the gap between the people who can grind and the people who can't (lack of time) remains under control. Then, there can't be a situation where a few players who have 1000 CP can kill easily anyone else who does not have so many CP yet. And player's skills remain the most important key factor in a combat.

The champion system is an opportunity for the future of the game, but without a season system with new gear and new contents, yes it will die.

Guild wars 2 didnt have to change its entire business model.... that alone tells you all you need to know about both fun AND profitability

ch.ris317b14_ESO

'Progression' is simply nerd code for grinding.

Real competition is only possible in games where PVP stats are eqaulized or capped, and PVE content is scaled.

Notice the story content in Guild Wars dwarfs ESO.... and they can keep adding because they dont have to worry about stupid things like three different leveling systems....

Majic

Two Steps Back

I've been taking a break until the "end game" situation gets straightened out. In light of the decidedly negative progress so far, I'm sorry to see it looks like I have a very long wait ahead of me.

I guess the silver lining is whenever -- if ever -- that eventually happens, enough time will have passed that ESO will seem like a brand new game again.

I wish ZOS luck in their endeavors, because it's definitely going to be needed.

ShiunTraze

sagitter wrote: »

I think that vr levels shoudln t be removed. You can get 1-50 in less than 1 day.Ofc there is cp system but isn't good for itemization or friend leveling.
It feels like real leveling starts at Vr level, before it's like a quick storyline.

hahahaha how can you ever get to 1-50 in 1 day?!?!?!?! That was back at launch, grinding takes a 'bit' longer than that now

wolverine4545

*clap

Agree 100%

Gidorick

I've said my peace on these issues

• VR Ranks should be coveted to a gradually progressing XP required level system (level 50-80)
• CPs should have a catch up bonus mechanic based on how ever many CP the top player has earned & how many CP a player has (CP Catchup Mechanic)

Now I'm in this thread....



I'm REALLY enjoying the rhetoric and discussion.

Epsilon_Echo

ZoS and "VR removal"

Hiero_Glyph

So far the general consensus is that there needs to be a way to slow down grinders and speed up casuals. The proposed season idea could define the amount of CP that you can gain in a period, but also determine if you are ahead or behind the current average. If behind by a certain % you gain a bonus to CP earned. If ahead by a certain % your CP gain is reduced. The farther behind or ahead you are determines the bonus or penalty you incur.

In all honesty the simplest solution is a CP bonus/penalty based on the % behind/ahead the average you are, rounded to the nearest whole %. If you have 0 CP and the average is 300 then you get a 300% bonus. If you have 600 CP then you take a 200% penalty and your CP gain is halved. Note that the catchup mechanic is still more beneficial than the penalty for being ahead so it would promote catching up to the average, not stopping grinders.

IcyDeadPeople

ShiunTraze wrote: »

hahahaha how can you ever get to 1-50 in 1 day?!?!?!?!

It's still common to grind to VR1 in a day. You can do this relatively easily in about 15-20 hours. I know some players who have done it in as little as 11 hours.
.

Gidorick

@Hiero_Glyph, that is the basic premise behind my concept. The more CP that has been earned by the top performers, the more those with fewer CP are boosted.

EXCEPT... I do not agree with slowing those who are gaining at a higher rate DOWN. You don't punish your top performers.

(CP Catchup Mechanic)

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

In all honesty the simplest solution is a CP bonus/penalty based on the % behind/ahead the average you are, rounded to the nearest whole %. If you have 0 CP and the average is 300 then you get a 300% bonus. If you have 600 CP then you take a 200% penalty and your CP gain is halved. Note that the catchup mechanic is still more beneficial than the penalty for being ahead so it would promote catching up to the average, not stopping grinders.

I believe Zenimax proposed something similar to this on ESOLive. 1-300 would have normal CP, @ 300-600 Cp your gain rate would diminish, and so on.

However, if your saying that the server should acquire the number of CPs every player has on the server, figure out the average of all those players, then calculate a different buff to each and every other player on the server depending on where each individual stands. You can expect to see your PING skyrocket because of all the communicate your asking the server to handle on top of the load it already has. Even if you were to call it to update every hour instead of Deltatime, it would likely crash the server at those periods. It sounds easy when you say but in coding, it's quite the chore.

I don't know maybe Zenimax servers can do it but that would be hella impressive.

tordr86b16_ESO

All we need is diminishing returns! The more points you have the longer it's going to take to get your next CP. You could even give out CP for doing weekly quests for dungeons or some such... Solutions are limitless, please don't remove the Champion System because I love it.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Just need seasons and tiers... like every other game

RoamingRiverElk

I have been playing this game for a year, and my /played is pretty astronomical.

Both in PvP and PvE, top-notch players have quit because of the CP system - not everyone has time to play every day, or every week. Yet they were crucial members of guilds and groups. The CP system is way too relevant and strong, and discourages not only new players, but anyone who does not have a lot of time or enthusiasm to grind.

Catch-up mechanics probably still won't help those who will only play, say, two evenings per week. Not to the extent where they could still be on the same level with others who play seven days a week.

I have nearly 300 CP. Daily gold pledges are way too easy now, there is no challenge. PvP is laggy and small groups don't have the necessary tools to fight zergs (and zerging is boring to many people - they've just been dropping out slowly as time has gone by).

I can't believe that an answer to a question about CP and campaigns would be about how there aren't yet enough people with lots of CP to merit their own campaign. That's not what the question was even about, surely! It's about protecting the campaigns from those who have too many CP. The way this should be done is NOT that you create a new optional campaign for high CP, or a new mandatory campaign for players who have lots of CP.

If you are to keep the CP system, create campaigns where the maximum CP assigned for a character is, for example, 330. Do not exclude players with more CP from participating in those campaigns, simply prevent a character with more CPs *activated* from entering the campaign, and prevent them from activating more of their CP when they are in that campaign.

These "low-CP" campaigns, such as the 330, will also keep the "balance" somewhat in check - high-CP PvP is horrendous. We tried it on the PTS.

Rescorla_ESO

Let's assume you are in a 1 vs 1 encounter in Cyrodil. If you lose, is the default assumption you lost because your opponent had more CPs than you?

In every MMO I have played since DAoC, people come to the forums and complain that some other class is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. This is typically because the person is a bad PVPer and they blame their loss on another class being OP instead of admitting they got beat because the other player was just better than them. My experience with PVP is the best PVPers are the ones who spend the most time PVPing and have the most experience, which comes from both winning and losing and learning from their mistakes. if someone has more CPs than me, then clearly they play the game more than me. That also means there is a very strong chance that since they play the game more than me, they have more experience at PVP than me.

Let's just say though that CPs do give someone a major advantage in PVP. I'm perfectly fine with that since CPs make the game significantly more alt friendly, especially considering the fact that the VR system seems like it is never going away. My self esteem can deal with getting beat in PVP if it means all of my characters can share the same accumulated CPs.

SanTii.92

Cp whine fest (don't get offended), and I'm saying this as a Vr8 max char with 70 Cps, can be easily worked arround by only adding a Non-Cp Campaign or a sub 300 Cp one. It is logical that those with more time in the game are comparative stronger. There is no need of major overhaul. Regarding Pve, what's the leaderboard if not a bragging instance for self egolatrism? Let the grinders have those.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Let's assume you are in a 1 vs 1 encounter in Cyrodil. If you lose, is the default assumption you lost because your opponent had more CPs than you?

In every MMO I have played since DAoC, people come to the forums and complain that some other class is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. This is typically because the person is a bad PVPer and they blame their loss on another class being OP instead of admitting they got beat because the other player was just better than them. My experience with PVP is the best PVPers are the ones who spend the most time PVPing and have the most experience, which comes from both winning and losing and learning from their mistakes. if someone has more CPs than me, then clearly they play the game more than me. That also means there is a very strong chance that since they play the game more than me, they have more experience at PVP than me.

Let's just say though that CPs do give someone a major advantage in PVP. I'm perfectly fine with that since CPs make the game significantly more alt friendly, especially considering the fact that the VR system seems like it is never going away. My self esteem can deal with getting beat in PVP if it means all of my characters can share the same accumulated CPs.

You know what would make the game MORE alt friendly.... not having a thousand hour time sing/grind.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

Funny how people complain about Veteran Ranks and how they are adding 2 more soon. However if you take CP as the end-game it really is. To get 300 CP, without enlightenment. The actually level cap in the game is Veteran Rank 120!!!!

Even if you have enlightenment full-time, the cap is Veteran Rank 30.

At 3600 CP, the cap is Veteran Rank 1,280!

So those who complain about the Veteran Ranks and love the Champion Point system are very confusing people.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

srlamasnrb18_ESO wrote: »

Cp whine fest (don't get offended), and I'm saying this as a Vr8 max char with 70 Cps, can be easily worked arround by only adding a Non-Cp Campaign or a sub 300 Cp one. It is logical that those with more time in the game are comparative stronger. There is no need of major overhaul. Regarding Pve, what's the leaderboard if not a bragging instance for self egolatrism? Let the grinders have those.

Or instead of devoting resources to figure out and balance inane progression systems... you just concentrate on story content, and add gear and regular levels.... like financially successful games have been doing since DnD

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Seriously, the model has been around since frickin monopoly... EXPANSIONS and variety new gameplay experiemce along with either gear or actual levels as the primary power creep

OR heres a thought... instead of new levels... new skill lines to discover and unlock....

SanTii.92

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

srlamasnrb18_ESO wrote: »

Cp whine fest (don't get offended), and I'm saying this as a Vr8 max char with 70 Cps, can be easily worked arround by only adding a Non-Cp Campaign or a sub 300 Cp one. It is logical that those with more time in the game are comparative stronger. There is no need of major overhaul. Regarding Pve, what's the leaderboard if not a bragging instance for self egolatrism? Let the grinders have those.

Or instead of devoting resources to figure out and balance inane progression systems... you just concentrate on story content, and add gear and regular levels.... like financially successful games have been doing since DnD

I got to that solution in 30 seconds, and talking about resources management and long term objectives, this particualr idea is as easy as it can be so you can concentrate on what you and I and many others actually want. New content, new systems. Not to revamp or overhauling the game again.

Vizier

this is turning into the Marxist ESO Manifesto. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. Let's just have a continuous "catch up" mechanism in place. XP and CP are distributed evenly based on current players.

:-/


Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

Attorneyatlawl

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Let's assume you are in a 1 vs 1 encounter in Cyrodil. If you lose, is the default assumption you lost because your opponent had more CPs than you?

In every MMO I have played since DAoC, people come to the forums and complain that some other class is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. This is typically because the person is a bad PVPer and they blame their loss on another class being OP instead of admitting they got beat because the other player was just better than them. My experience with PVP is the best PVPers are the ones who spend the most time PVPing and have the most experience, which comes from both winning and losing and learning from their mistakes. if someone has more CPs than me, then clearly they play the game more than me. That also means there is a very strong chance that since they play the game more than me, they have more experience at PVP than me.

Let's just say though that CPs do give someone a major advantage in PVP. I'm perfectly fine with that since CPs make the game significantly more alt friendly, especially considering the fact that the VR system seems like it is never going away. My self esteem can deal with getting beat in PVP if it means all of my characters can share the same accumulated CPs.

Quoted for emphasis, and truth. Great to see another daoc veteran . I played it from launch through early 2008 with no real breaks (1 or 2 weeks every so often), so about six and a half years straight. I also dabbled in it occasionally later on, too. As a random aside... Imagine the posts if eso had a hard interrupt system like daoc used. /shudder at the chaos and outrage . I really did love it though.