The Day ESO Dies

eventide03b14a_ESO

Deltia wrote: »

Hello ESO Forums,

I posted this on my website but I know ZOS reads these forums so I figured I'd share my thoughts here. I'm one person the sea of awesome people that love this game. With the announcement of increase in Veteran Ranks I'd like to leave my feedback whether you agree or not. And here's what I have to say about the problem and fixing it.

Before I start I want to make clear where my opinions come from. I make my living playing THIS video game only. Not only that, but it's my primary means of socialization. Over the past two years (including beta), I've been infatuated with the idea of a multiplayer Elder Scrolls Game. Not to mention the help that ZOS has personally given me. I still love ESO, but I'm not going to blindly follow a games growth that does not fit my needs. Just realize the passion I have for this game, it's community and developers runs deep.

VR 16?

Within the same breath, Eric Wrobel said they still have long term plans of removing Veteran Ranks (VR), but for the new content they are increasing it by two thus making end game VR 16. At this point, I think it's clear that Veteran Ranks aren't going away, ANYTIME in the future. I have eight VR 14s and the problem I have with this isn't the time investment to re-level all those characters, or the fully legendary gear, but the constant deception about not adding more Veteran Ranks. We as customers have a right to voice or opinions and/or a right to stop being customers. For me, it's time to pick one and voicing seems to be the best option.

I have defended their decisions as a business model constantly but this is one I cannot ignore. Adding Veteran Ranks is not content, it's busy work. Content is intractable quest, dungeon diving finding worthwhile rewards with friends, a working PvP system giving flexibility and choices. Yes, I know Imperial City is coming with this additional Veteran Ranks, but why increase the cap? "Deltia to increase the contents difficulty," well that's true in most MMOs but not ESO and that's due to the Champion System.

Champion Progression

Most games have a level cap that once reached, one works on optimizing gear and your individual skill for increased performance. However, ESO has the Champion System rendering time in game collecting XP as account progression. So take the most skilled PvPer in the world (let's say Sypher) vs. someone with 1,000 more champion points. Skill is irreverent at this point. Thus removing one of the core reasons I play MMOs and video games alike. Busy work trumps constantly improving yourself. Grinding mobs and CP is the new meta, not skill.

Take another game for instance, you have fully maxed out gear and have been playing for four years. Once a level increase hits, most players will be on an even playing field in terms of gear. So, there is some possibility of catching up to those folks that spend eight hours a day in game. Not ESO, there is no Champion Point catch up mechanic. The person at level 10 might be more powerful than someone at VR14 due to CP. Without a catch up mechanic or a way to limit zombie grinding macros and bots, you'll have a runaway performance gap the size the Grand Canyon.
The Fix

Someone like me benefits significantly from the Champion System. Having alts, grinding mobs and skills, etc just makes me VERY powerful. But it does not help new players, inexperienced ones nor the overall game. My good friend Parfax had an excellent suggestion, simply have seasons for Champion Points. Meaning, every three months or so, you could gain 100 CP. Once you reach that number, you have to wait for the reset. No more 100 v 1,000 CP fights. If that doesn't work, why not make CP have diminishing returns? So the first 300 are very easy to obtain, but everything beyond that is harder (similar to Alliance Ranks).

I'm all for account wide progression, but at what cost? At the cost that people grinding zombies ultimately win? At the cost that skill and performance are removed out of the game? I want to one day challenge Sypher in PvP without out grinding him. With skill, learning, getting my face kicked in by him over and over just to beat him one day with pure skill. Until this changes, the easier way for me to beat him is out grind him. Obtain such a mathematical advantage that no amount of skill can compensate. And that is the day that ESO dies.

Why I Give a ****

No I do not plan on leaving the game. I still love the combat, the people and the developers. But I'm no longer a bushy eyed fan-boy. I don't want to leave this game, this is my absolute favorite thing to do (well besides you know what). I've have (not had) such an emotional attachment to the land of Tamriel that I won't let it go just yet. But I'm not going to sit back and let another level increase happen without a true fix to the underlying problem, the Champion System.

Wow if I could give this post an insightful, agree and awesome I would. Well said. I also am getting tired of this backtracking on what we have been told and it done completely in secret. It would be better at this point to have no progression than to increase the vet ranks. Why will ZOS not listen to the community on this one? WE DO NOT WANT VETERAN RANKS. WE DO NOT WANT THEM NOW AND WE DO NOT WANT THEM INCREASED!

eventide03b14a_ESO

Zheg wrote: »

This will be the third level cap raise in about a year and a half. Even with all of the issues of veteran levels and XP in general with the game, and the way that the playerbase feels about them, the fact that they plan on raising the level cap this many times in this short a time period demonstrates utter incompetence. There is simply no need for it. They can release small content updates without forcing us to grind more xp (and completely sunsetting our prior gear) for no purpose other than a false sense of accomplishment and progression.

I know they're new to mmorpgs, but one would think even a modicum of common sense would be considered when making decisions like this. The cherry on top is not only do they make these absurd decisions, they insist on maintaining abysmal communication. Even the community managers seem to be useless of late, which is truly unfortunate given how good they were at addressing player feedback early on in the game's life. Rich's /lurk spree is the most action we've seen in a while, and that says a lot.

The third level cap without any significant new content. Most MMO's only raise the cap when a major expansion comes out.

rb2001

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.

With time, yes. Thank you.

Lazy/entitled players want to skip that time, because they think they are somehow special.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

^ This.

Very, very well done.

Second time today I wish could vote someone Awesome twice.

All The Best

THEDKEXPERIENCE

The only reason for this backlash is because arguably the largest "celebrity" in the ESO realm claimed that the sky is falling. I'm pretty certain that if both Neil Degrasse-Tyson and Kim Kardashian both posted at the same time about the same subject more people would reply to the Kardashian post regardless of if the topic was about celestial mechanics or hooking up with rappers.

Popularity does not equal wisdom.

Attorneyatlawl

SLy_Kyti wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

When Deltia drops a post like this, it's time for ZOS to stand up and make some changes.

...far deeper than the more broadly known people that publicize testing, or re-post builds they overheard in-game do...

(source- http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1988302/#Comment_1988302)

Derisive much? Cutting heads off to look taller is opprobrious. As you mentioned No one absolutely knows the details concerning the number crunching . Which nullifies your responses as well.

Posters here took the time to thoughtfully consider this threads ramifications and are engaging in dialog (however meaningful that is to some), whether the numbers are absolutes or mere supposition. As evidenced by the 20 odd pages we have something to say. I appreciate the opportunity ZOS has allowed, to do so. I also am thankful that @delita broached the subject. Even given sanctimonious responses from others such as "/fin" aside.

There's no derision implied or intended, there. I write in a pretty plain and matter-of-fact manner, just shy of always. Simply because I disagree with you shouldn't make my "consider(ation) of the ramifications and dialog" any less meaningful. As far as the "far deeper" portion of that sentence you plucked out mid-post and out of context... I have chatted with quite a few other players that have shown off much more thorough testing. That has nothing to do with "cutting heads off" or "sanctimony". It is a statement of fact from my experiences . As they say on hot deal sites... "YMMV" (your mileage may vary). And really now... nitpicking a "/fin" after a lengthy post? It's a closing... don't read too deeply into it .

As for your list?

SLy_Kyti wrote: »

• Raising the level cap,
• erasing end game items worth,
• allowing CP gains to outweigh skill
• not providing a way to close the CP gap beyond Crown Shop purchases
• changing gameplay without adding content

These are what we are talking about. Numbers aside. These are the death knell, the harbinger of the end.

I addressed all of those with facts in the post you're linking, of mine. The one part that I did not, was the raw math on the champion gains, though I covered the concepts as to why they're being overblown. The Imperial City is a substantial amount of content... frankly, I get the feeling it'll be akin to some games' expansion packs in terms of size and gameplay ramifications. All of these changes are coming in at the same time: patch "1.7", though it may officially be marked as "2.1" or something else.

On "close the CP gap with crown purchases"... those are not gap closers. And they aren't "crown shop purchases". They are gap wideners and easily obtained with relatively low amounts of in-game currency (for active players). They amplify, just as the in-game and inexpensive Psijic Ambrosia potions (currently obtainable for around four thousand gold each in materials readily and steadily... lasting 50 minutes each use with the proper provisioning passive for a total of 3.33 hours each creation) do, the rate you earn EXP at. Someone already earning more EXP will earn that amount plus 50% more, while you will earn what you were going to but 50% more to boot. That isn't a gap closer... if I'm earning 2 million EXP a day and use the in-game potion (with optional cash shop versions available) I will earn 3 million EXP. If you are earning only 350,000 XP a day and use that same potion... you're going to earn 525,000 EXP a day.

Instead of being behind by 1,650,000 EXP a day in that instance as compared to someone who plays more actively, more efficiently, or even both, you'll be "behind" (quote-unquote) by 2,475,000. This is a very common misconception as to the potions being a so-called "gap closer", since they're fairly inexpensive and plentiful in-game for gold. A "gap closer" is a mechanic that helps only people who are progressing more slowly, to "catch up". By definition, this can't apply to both the higher and the lower placements.

rb2001

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

^ This.

Very, very well done.

Second time today I wish could vote someone Awesome twice.

All The Best

Except that you can do the exact same thing he did, if you spend enough time. Also, your argument is flawed, because the long-time ESO player in this analogy does not subvert the mechanics. He builds his character better within them, within the same system that you can.

technohic

Again; the presence of vet levels are not the problem as far as I am concerned. I actually would rather have them than champion points. It's the speed of progression that has been terrrible with VR in the past to me.

Basically using the Carrot on a stick analogy.

VR = I am chasing a carrot on a stick and I eventually catch it but its a tiny carrot. Others will get their carrot before me but I will eventually get mine while they have stopped to enjoy their carrot.


CP = I am chasing a carrot on a stick and I will never catch it. I will get a nibble here and there, but I will always be chasing the carrot. If I stop for whatever reason, I can never catch up to my friends who keep going after that carrot as they will never stop to enjoy it because they will never catch it either.

Seaber

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.

Nope.

Player X plays 20,000 hours of chess games against other people.
Player Y plays 20,000 hours of chess games against himself and makes the game last for the minimum amount of time possible by making black lose every time so that he has played thousands of times more games than player X.

In this new chess system called champion chess you get to turn your pieces into queens when you play a certain number of games.

If player X and player Y had a match against each other then player Y would win because they have all queens and player X has none.

Rune_Relic

rb2001 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

The question is, is it too late to save ESO? I'm beginning to believe so unless we see some changes very soon and some content. Here is hoping they provide what we want when Imperial City announcement is made. And here is hoping Wrothgar etc come with that update. But I'm doubting it at this point I really am

I think it's absolutely still fun to play, as long as you (as in the general you) stop worrying so much about what other players are doing and capable of, stop being entitled to be as good as other players who have been here longer and put more time in.

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

It is folly! This is not targeted at you, @Nifty2g, just to be clear, but rather to expand on my earlier post.

To speak for myself, I have a lot left to see in the game, am excited for new content, and am actually enjoying the vet and champ systems. I don't feel like I have to progress in them. They are extra. When I progress in them, I am pleased. I don't seek to grind them. No one makes you do that except for yourself, and then you blame ZOS.

The hilarity of it all is that ZOS did not intend people to grind these systems out. They were intended for long term, slow development, that you gain automatically by playing, not grind them and then go "hey what do I play now?".

People will ruin just about everything for themselves.

Anyhow, new content will be great. ZOS is most certainly aware of the entire forum being on fire from this vet/champ business, and I imagine they will sort it out in time.

Someone can sit an exam 20 times in a row once a year and fail.
Someone else can pass that exam 1st time.
Are you saying the person that failed the exam 20 times should get the job ?
Clearly they put much more time and effort into it....they just weren't very competent.

Attorneyatlawl

Seaber wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.

Nope.

Player X plays 20,000 hours of chess games against other people.
Player Y plays 20,000 hours of chess games against himself and makes the game last for the minimum amount of time possible by making black lose every time so that he has played thousands of times more games than player X.

In this new chess system called champion chess you get to turn your pieces into queens when you play a certain number of games.

If player X and player Y had a match against each other then player Y would win because they have all queens and player X has none.

That's a completely inapplicable analogy. You are likening it as though there are some special tools available only to some people playing the game: that isn't the case, and flaws the analogy to where it's irrelevant. Everyone can play the game. Skill will improve your earnings and rate of progression. However, the two spots it falls apart are the claims that the progression is magnitudes of power different for those pieces (they aren't, in ESO), and asserting that "player X" couldn't have gained the same progression.

michaelb14a_ESO2

spoqster wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with VR16 or Champion points. MMO's raise level cap. Champion points keep people playing the game. Plus what kind of backlash would erupt if they removed them? The people who spent hour upon hour grinding will suddenly leave the mobs and return the the forum in Frankenstein mob form.

Vertical progression is just very bad game design for a multiplayer game. The fact that other games do it, doesn't make it better.

Just imagine playing basketball with a magic ball that "learns" how to find the basket, and hits with a higher probability every throw, without you as a player having to get better at all. Who'd want to play with you after a weeks?

The more time you spend in a game, the better it should make you as a player. It shouldn't make your character better. That's how games like Counter-Strike and sports in general are so immensely popular.

Good multiplayer games add horizontal progression systems, which award you more versatility and options as you develop your character. That's what skills in ESO essentially are, a horizontal progression system. As you gain skill points you have more skills to choose from, but you can only use 12 at a time and they don't get more powerful. You just have more options to customize your build and make it fit better with your playstyle - just as basketball players have the choice between a thousand types of shoes, so they can pick whichever fits them best - without gaining an absolute competitive advantage.

I log on to play the game for a few hours to relax and have fun. I get lost in PVP for 10 hours, because the gameplay sucks me in. I practice to get better, to improve my skill. But if a game forces me to grind content for xp or gear, I end up loathing the content, rather than enjoying it. If I get the feeling I can't become emperor, because I can never play as much as a player who does not have a job, I lose interest in PVP. If I get the feeling that I can't catch up with high CP players, I end up quitting the game.


A good game has no vertical progression, it sucks players in because of fun gameplay. Vertical progression is simply a means to trick players into playing a game that is not good enough to keep players engaged otherwise.

Meh, baby with the bath water here. Vertical progression is a hallmark of RPG and cRPG games, of which MMOs have their roots. While I agree with a few of your points, RPG gameplay has vastly different player reward/gameplay systems than sports and FPS games. Sports/FPS games reward player dexterity, reaction, aim with "wins". RPG's reward players based on time invested and knowledge of the game's meta, numbers, mechanics and enviroment with "advancement".

Good games have a soul and know what they want to be and do, rather than try to be everything to everyone.

rb2001

Rune_Relic wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

The question is, is it too late to save ESO? I'm beginning to believe so unless we see some changes very soon and some content. Here is hoping they provide what we want when Imperial City announcement is made. And here is hoping Wrothgar etc come with that update. But I'm doubting it at this point I really am

I think it's absolutely still fun to play, as long as you (as in the general you) stop worrying so much about what other players are doing and capable of, stop being entitled to be as good as other players who have been here longer and put more time in.

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

It is folly! This is not targeted at you, @Nifty2g, just to be clear, but rather to expand on my earlier post.

To speak for myself, I have a lot left to see in the game, am excited for new content, and am actually enjoying the vet and champ systems. I don't feel like I have to progress in them. They are extra. When I progress in them, I am pleased. I don't seek to grind them. No one makes you do that except for yourself, and then you blame ZOS.

The hilarity of it all is that ZOS did not intend people to grind these systems out. They were intended for long term, slow development, that you gain automatically by playing, not grind them and then go "hey what do I play now?".

People will ruin just about everything for themselves.

Anyhow, new content will be great. ZOS is most certainly aware of the entire forum being on fire from this vet/champ business, and I imagine they will sort it out in time.

Someone can sit an exam 20 times in a row once a year and fail.
Someone else can pass that exam 1st time.
Are you saying the person that failed the exam 20 times should get the job ?
Clearly they put much more time and effort into it....they just weren't very competent.

I am not saying anything remotely like that, nor anything about jobs or proficiency where one has to produce something.

Edit: To expand, we've arrived at the good old debate of whether player skill or player stats should be more important.

My opinion on this is as irrelevant to the direction of ESO as yours, but in my opinion, I would say that player skill should dominate.

You may have mistaken my agenda. My stance is that all of these systems are detrimental to the game, long term, because they don't actually add any variety of mechanics.

For instance, if everyone in the game simply received 60 horse speed right now, that would be the exact same situation long term, because everyone will end up with 60 horse speed.

I actually would prefer there not to be levels at all, or endless chase systems that when reached, everyone is the same again and enemies just get readjusted (i.e. nothing actually meaningful happens).

My point on the chess bit was that these systems do currently exist, and people are entitled to think they should be able to bypass them all right away without spending the time.

Attorneyatlawl

rb2001 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.

With time, yes. Thank you.

Lazy/entitled players want to skip that time, because they think they are somehow special.

I could go into a good, long essay about politics, social trends, and a variety of other discussions, to even begin to address this topic. This isn't the time, or the place, though... so I will just reiterate: fairness isn't "give everyone the same stuff." Fairness is "let everyone have the same opportunity." And they do here, in ESO.

eventide03b14a_ESO

nebuloss124 wrote: »

lets face it Deltias probably knows more about this game and how it works then most if not all players on ESO. What he has to say makes alot of sense i personally have been playing on ps4 and have been obssesed about getting as many champion points as i can. so in a few months i will just roll over everyone in pvp. its giving me a reason to keep logging on and playing for long hours. but then i started to think to myself maybe VR are the way to go instead of CP. But changing that now would make alot of people very angry. ZOS got themselves into a bad situation. I cant even think of how it can be fixed but in the mean time ill be grinding cp. love and thanks to deltias for everything he does

That's presumptuous. Many of us have been playing since beta. No player should be more important than the others anyway. We have collectively been saying that we hate the veteran system for over a year now and they have said they are removing them once the champion system was released. It shouldn't take someone like Deltia to get a response from ZOS. It's ridiculous.

Attorneyatlawl

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Meh, baby with the bath water here. Vertical progression is a hallmark of RPG and cRPG games, of which MMOs have their roots. While I agree with a few of your points, RPG gameplay has vastly different player reward/gameplay systems than sports and FPS games. Sports/FPS games reward player dexterity, reaction, aim with "wins". RPG's reward players based on time invested and knowledge of the game's meta, numbers, mechanics and enviroment with "advancement".

Good games have a soul and know what they want to be and do, rather than try to be everything to everyone.

Hear, hear! While RPG's can and do often have elements of dexterity and reaction time, their primary emphasis has always been and by definition continues to be, progression, knowledge of the strategies at play (which includes knowing when to act, when not to act, and what to do when acting), the actions happening during combat ("numbers"), and the game world (including broader overarching topics like the economy or where to obtain resources/equipment). Pure twitch gameplay is the domain of Quake and Unreal Tournament. Counter-Strike, lauded as it is, is a compromise as it contains RPG-esque elements (accruing cash through gameplay that fuels the purchase of weapons you can wield to kill enemies more effectively or utility such as smoke grenades and body/head armor).

rb2001

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.

With time, yes. Thank you.

Lazy/entitled players want to skip that time, because they think they are somehow special.

I could go into a good, long essay about politics, social trends, and a variety of other discussions, to even begin to address this topic. This isn't the time, or the place, though... so I will just reiterate: fairness isn't "give everyone the same stuff." Fairness is "let everyone have the same opportunity." And they do here, in ESO.

Thank you.

If you put in the time, both in developing your character and your own skills and knowledge, you can be that VR14 360 Champ monster crushing everyone (if that's what you're into). In time, as opposed to right away.

Yes, it may be that that monster in question has more free time on his hands than you. So? Then shuffle your schedule. That extra free time he has is a function of life and society, not ESO. He could spend his extra free time with his family, playing sports, watching TV, whatever, but he chooses to play ESO.

It's nothing to do with ESO that that guy has more time than you to spend on it.

Attorneyatlawl

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

nebuloss124 wrote: »

lets face it Deltias probably knows more about this game and how it works then most if not all players on ESO. What he has to say makes alot of sense i personally have been playing on ps4 and have been obssesed about getting as many champion points as i can. so in a few months i will just roll over everyone in pvp. its giving me a reason to keep logging on and playing for long hours. but then i started to think to myself maybe VR are the way to go instead of CP. But changing that now would make alot of people very angry. ZOS got themselves into a bad situation. I cant even think of how it can be fixed but in the mean time ill be grinding cp. love and thanks to deltias for everything he does

That's presumptuous. Many of us have been playing since beta.

Indeed, it is. That's what I was (politely) getting at when mentioning that any one person is hardly the end-all, be-all wisdom and knowledgebase of the entire game. You could substitute absolutely any name into my post (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1988302/#Comment_1988302) and it would mean the exact same thing.

Seaber

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

That's a completely inapplicable analogy. You are likening it as though there are some special tools available only to some people playing the game: that isn't the case, and flaws the analogy to where it's irrelevant. Everyone can play the game. Skill will improve your earnings and rate of progression. However, the two spots it falls apart are the claims that the progression is magnitudes of power different for those pieces (they aren't, in ESO), and asserting that "player X" couldn't have gained the same progression.

Player X could have gained the queens if they grinded for the 20,000 hours instead of actually playing chess.

Let's look at eso.

Player A practices vdsa for 1000 hours.
Player B grinds for 1000 hours.

Player B is far stronger than player A and will get a better score in vdsa.

technohic

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.

With time, yes. Thank you.

Lazy/entitled players want to skip that time, because they think they are somehow special.

I could go into a good, long essay about politics, social trends, and a variety of other discussions, to even begin to address this topic. This isn't the time, or the place, though... so I will just reiterate: fairness isn't "give everyone the same stuff." Fairness is "let everyone have the same opportunity." And they do here, in ESO.

At the same time, making it to where it is not an endless progression does not suddenly make everyone not have the same opportunity.


Look; I know people want to be rewarded for the "work" they put into the game and don't feel like they do if someone who puts in less work can catch up so easily, but I would argue that most people just want to play the damned game rather than "work" to begin with. You can still have time where someone can put a little extra "work" in on their builds or even incremental level increases without having to make it permanent no matter how slight it seems at first.

End of the day; if its a constant time=power, you will alienate first the people who have the least amount of time or lord forbid, would like to divide their free time among other things, and eventually it moves up until it alienates the people who just had slightly less time.

rb2001

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Meh, baby with the bath water here. Vertical progression is a hallmark of RPG and cRPG games, of which MMOs have their roots. While I agree with a few of your points, RPG gameplay has vastly different player reward/gameplay systems than sports and FPS games. Sports/FPS games reward player dexterity, reaction, aim with "wins". RPG's reward players based on time invested and knowledge of the game's meta, numbers, mechanics and enviroment with "advancement".

Good games have a soul and know what they want to be and do, rather than try to be everything to everyone.

Hear, hear! While RPG's can and do often have elements of dexterity and reaction time, their primary emphasis has always been and by definition continues to be, progression, knowledge of the strategies at play (which includes knowing when to act, when not to act, and what to do when acting), the actions happening during combat ("numbers"), and the game world (including broader overarching topics like the economy or where to obtain resources/equipment). Pure twitch gameplay is the domain of Quake and Unreal Tournament. Counter-Strike, lauded as it is, is a compromise as it contains RPG-esque elements (accruing cash through gameplay that fuels the purchase of weapons you can wield to kill enemies more effectively or utility such as smoke grenades and body/head armor).

You make a great point.

In an RPG, we do not play ourselves, we make characters. One could be slow in real life, and make and roleplay a character who is fast.

HungryHobo

Larger diminishing returns. Make the first 500 points mean something, the rest are like 20% of those and less. Not this semi-linear system they have now.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.

With time, yes. Thank you.

Lazy/entitled players want to skip that time, because they think they are somehow special.

I could go into a good, long essay about politics, social trends, and a variety of other discussions, to even begin to address this topic. This isn't the time, or the place, though... so I will just reiterate: fairness isn't "give everyone the same stuff." Fairness is "let everyone have the same opportunity." And they do here, in ESO.

Well said. Everyone has the opportunity to play how they want. What comes of it is a direct result of your choices. I chose to kill 150 VR12 CPU characters last night because I wanted to reap the rewards of the 40K gold I'll make today selling grand soul gems. You could choose to do this, or you could choose not to. No one is making you do anything.

Here's a tip for the masses. There are only two ways to be great at something. Either discover a new way to be great or copy someone who did something great already. If you choose to play the way everyone else does you're gonna going to get mediocre results. If your way isn't working and you're not getting the results you want then change your style. If you refuse to change because you like doing what you do then keep on doing it. Just don't expect to be rewarded for it.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

When Deltia drops a post like this, it's time for ZOS to stand up and make some changes.

With all due respect, he is a great performer and provides some popular streams. It's a great thing for the community, and a valuable service. But both his and Erlex's views are without any proof that a proper, factual analysis can support. While no one person is generally going to have the full picture outside of a handful of in-company gameplay designers and a likely single-digit number of players, even if you dig into the numbers far, far deeper than the more broadly known people that publicize testing, or re-post builds they overheard in-game do... there's more than a bit left out of the original post in this thread. Numbers are a fascinating thing, really. They, themselves, can be presented in a lot of ways, but on their own do not lie or mislead. However, the way they're framed... that can make a monumental difference as to how well they're interpretted and the actual, practical impact they tell of.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1988011/#Comment_1988011

You can see my preliminary layout of thoughts on this at that link above. For this thread, I will just quote and excerpt a small portion of it, with minor abbreviation and word insertions to clarify for readability out of context:

Attorneyatlawl wrote:

For gear, if anyone truly believes that, somehow, under a half of one percent in stats, which equates to typically under a fifteenth of one percent in damage/healing output or other combat performance, is gimping them... don't. That's not anyone's problem. See below for proof:



The entire 5-piece set will differ by a grand total in this example, by 4 magicka recovery, 33 max magicka, and 6 spell damage, before minor percentage boosts such as a spell pot (20%, so you'd end up with an extra 7.2 spell damage rating here). A player changing from the V12, to the V14 versions of this gear, would jump to approximately 7000 healing on a Blessing of Protection spell, from a prior value of 6991. That number is 1.00128x of what they had before. What does this mean? For the less mathematically inclined... that means you are gaining about 1.3... tenths... of ONE percent. As you can probably imagine... it's statistically nothing, and essentially so small it could easily be mistaken for a margin of error/near-rounding difference. That's why, even when V12 gear hit... I still wore almost entirely V10, even when doing this staggering DPS back then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar95AyLP1aU

And that character is an Imperial... so it doesn't have the shiny 9% maximum magicka and 7% flame damage (back then, it acted as a spell power bonus rather than a flat damage percentage boost, but nevertheless... it would have been substantial) passives, nor did it back then. The DPS shown there was an average for me, not a peak. My best runs hit upwards of another 10% higher, and on the other bosses such as the Stone Atronarch the numbers were only about 10-12% shy of what I would get on the Storm Atronarch in a given run.

The champion system is a big can of worms. Suffice to say, the first 300-400 points are important. The next couple of hundred will continue to gain moderately for many builds. Beyond that, you see a significant nosedive in how much they amplify your actual performance, both due to inherent relative diminishment and what parts of your combat they affect. I'll be doing a detailed post regarding this soon, but by and large, a simple "The first X number of champion points require less XP" that is raised every so often with patches, for now say "The first 120 champion points take less XP to earn" and then six months from now, "The first 225 champion points take less XP to earn" and so on would basically take care of the issue of power gaps when combined with the current enlightenment system that penalizes you after earning your first champion point in any given 24-hour period. Yes, the numbers are shiny and big. No, they don't make as giant a gap as it intuitively looks, when you boil it down to the facts after a moderate initial champion rank as described above. Wow's system is by far worse if you are not a hardcore player, for allowing you to even attempt to "keep up with the Joneses".

Numbers are fine and dandy... but don't be fooled by the hype: all the best gear and fractions of fractions of a percent don't matter if you don't know how to use them properly. Without stat/character power differences being orders of magnitude apart... your skill is what makes it happen at the end of the day.

Fin.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I've been lurking here in this thread since Friday. Just wanted folks to know its not being ignored.

Mr. Burns: "Ex-cellent."
All views are important to take into consideration, agree, disagree, or "don't understand where someone's coming from to the extent you wonder if it was a satire"... there's almost always something to be gleaned.

"It's not what I don't know, that we should be concerned about. It's the things that we don't know, we don't know, which worry me."
(Beats me where it originated from... but it's an apt concept. )

(Edited to fix a broken formatting tag.)

We the players, or "payers" if you will, almost universally hate the veteran system. Yes there are some who either don't know any better or simply don't care, but the majority detest it. To say that you will remove the veteran cap once the champion system is in place and then raise it twice instead, while still asserting that you are removing it, feels very disingenuous. Please do not raise the cap. Please remove the ranks. Please make a way that there is not such a large divide between those that have 6 hours a day to play and those that have 6 hours a week. That's all we are asking for.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.

How the hell did you become a community ambassador anyway?

rb2001

There are so many different ways to go on the progression topic that we are never all going to agree or come to a consensus.

I almost feel like whenever a large rift is formed of opinion/desire in a community game, it should divide into 2 versions, 2 forums, etc.

You'd have subsets of ESO, different flavors.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

But they dont though. Quest grinders do not come anywhere close to mob grinders. This will finally be addressed in either IC or Orsinium. This long overdue xp rebalancing I feel will have a much bigger impact on closing the 'gap' than people are talking about. Right now quest grinders are getting dusted in xp gains.

Seaber

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.

How the hell did you become a community ambassador anyway?

You become a community ambassador by agreeing with everything that zos does.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Seaber wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Seaber wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It is akin to going to a master chess tournament and demanding to god that you be as good as the master who has been playing for 20 years.

No. It is more like going to a chess tournament and having to play against someone that has changed all of their pieces for queens just because they have played 20,000 games against himself.

Nope. Personal skill comes with practice. All of the same tools in Chess are available to both players... just as they are here, in ESO.

How the hell did you become a community ambassador anyway?

You become a community ambassador by agreeing with everything that zos does.

I would think that a community ambassador would speak to ZOS on behalf of the community. The community hates the veteran ranks. We are telling you as much. Please stop trying to make excuses for them @Attorneyatlawl and let them know we hate it. And please use whatever resources are at your disposal to find out why they keep lying about it.

BBSooner

After reading some ZOS responses I'm curious what kind of content is releasing with IC that they feel requires VR16. It's also interesting that the game will be receiving a VR raise for content revolving around PvP. Had the raise come with Wrothgar, Murkmire, or any other PvE zone I feel like it would be better received, especially considering if IC is to be "rotated" based on who holds the keeps around it, we're essentially being told to level for content that we will be routinely locked out of.

Also, should ZOS be lurking in this thread, please do not stagger the release of these zones like you did with Craglorn lower/upper. We're quickly approaching 1 year between when we got the second half of Craglorn and when we may/may not get another zone, releasing half a zone would be pretty disheartening.