Maintenance for the week of November 18:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
The future of the User interface which is currently awfull.
-
zhevon✭✭✭✭Alas the Elderscrolls cheerleaders about immersive UI are just wrong in one way; at least in Skyrim (and probably in Oblivion and Morrowind - been awhile since I played those) you could always go to a page a see the your effects EVEN TEMPORARY ONES.Edited by zhevon on September 26, 2014 11:54AM3 -
Leijona✭✭✭✭✭I don't know much about such boring stuff like programming and API. My fear would be, that as soon as these things are implemented, that many here want, it opens the gates for addons to get information, I definetly don't want anyone besides me to have.
I don't think that anyone besides ZOS could take away that fear and maybe other players have the same fear.
Besides that, allthough I don't see, why some things should be neccesary (maybe more comfortable, even useful, but not neccesary - and nobody will be able to explain it to me
), I have no problems with optional improvements, such as guild names over the characters heads or a search field in the inventory. 0 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Wykkyd
I myself have nothing against a fully detailed combat log saved to text file in the log folder. That way we can all see if the mechanics are working as intended and what we can do to improve.
That's not the same as having information overload flying across the screen in rainbow colours....but if it can be turned off....no different to switching an addon on or off.
I think what most people are afraid of is "having" to use such eye candy if you want to join a guild and such...so they can check on your performance and decide wether to kick you or not.
That being said.....how many guilds are saying..you must have this addon or GTFO!Edited by Rune_Relic on September 26, 2014 12:32PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »That being said.....how many guilds are saying..you must have this addon or GTFO!
Only the competitive ones that expect you to perform. AKA less than 0,1% of them most likely? There are lots of good casual guilds out there that couldn't care less about all that stuff and will never ask you for any addon, that will never change.
In any case, the subject is larger than just addons that could be required. The awfull Q wheel, the guild store search, the ability to move all the Ui elements (even the default ones) and place them anywhere on the screen are things that no guild or group of players will ever ask you or force you to install, still the game desperately needs improvement on those...Edited by TehMagnus on September 26, 2014 12:47PM0 -
Wykkyd✭✭✭✭✭@Wykkyd Where'd your post go that I was about to respond to? Change of heart?
Nope. No clue.Wykkyd Gaming • Mostly Harmless • Website • Twitter
Find my addons: Exclusively on ESOUI
As seen on: PC Gamer • Massively • Exploring ESO • Ten Ton Hammer0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The people arguing against changes to the UI come from one of three camps:
1 - They don't want more UI themselves, so don't think it should be there at all.
2 - They don't understand that add-ons don't have access to the information we're after, so don't understand that telling us add-ons are our options is a pointless endeavor
3 - They think that us having options will force them to use those options to stay competitive, when in most cases they aren't actually competing in the first place
It's arguing against options, because they feel everyone should play the way they do. It's good enough for them, so why isn't it good enough for you? Meanwhile the "I would like more UI/options" crew almost always argue for their requests to be handled as "something that could be turned on if the user wanted it." The opposition wants to force everyone to play like them, the requestors simply want things they can selectively enable if they choose to.
It's arguing against information. Ignorance is not a feature. If you, as a player, choose to be ignorant (which means uninformed or under educated about a subject or topic) then that is your choice. Just because you are fine not knowing doesn't mean everyone else should be forced to not know. That's akin to telling scientists they aren't allowed to do research because you, personally, have a distaste for science.
The API doesn't give us enough information to build add-ons to cover the gaps in this game's UI. No amount of arguing or telling us how wrong we are is going to change that irrefutable fact. This is an MMO. This is played online, in multi-player mode on a massive server. That is the definition of MMO. It doesn't matter how much it is or isn't flavored like The Elder Scrolls. And that's a lowsy excuse for not having access to basic MMO information.
DID YOU KNOW that more than half of the bugs found with combat actions and balance during beta and PTS can be attributed to API functions, and add-ons, which have since been nerfed or completely disabled?
Like it or not, when multiple people play a massive game like this online BALANCE matters. Being able to use INFORMATION and DATA to analyze your own performance to IMPROVE your play MATTERS. Being able to see that a debuff actually landed so that you can decide to not waste more magicka re-applying it MATTERS. Being able to see when a 20-second buff is about to fade, more clearly, so that you can re-apply it as it fades to get more optimal buff coverage MATTERS.
While you're happy staring at your glowy health bar, mentally deciphering what that glow is or isn't and running mental calculations about how long you think it's been up and when it's about to fade... you're missing critical game components all around you while you do so. The more time you spend analyzing this or that particular game-provided glowy graphic, the less time you spend experiencing the rest of the game around you. Arguing for lack of UI for the sake of immersion is actually arguing against immersion because the lack of informative UI elements pulls you away from the rest of the game.
Anyway... I could go on this diatribe all day. Those that need this wake up call won't read it, and those that can't understand it or already agree with it will. That's how forums work. So, I'm done for now.
The post was moved to the top since I selected it as best answer (since I lost hope of ZOS every answering on this subject and I couldn't have said it better than Wykkyd). Quoting it again.
Edited by TehMagnus on September 26, 2014 12:49PM1 -
Lionxoft✭✭✭✭✭
✭The people arguing against changes to the UI come from one of three camps:
1 - They don't want more UI themselves, so don't think it should be there at all.
2 - They don't understand that add-ons don't have access to the information we're after, so don't understand that telling us add-ons are our options is a pointless endeavor
3 - They think that us having options will force them to use those options to stay competitive, when in most cases they aren't actually competing in the first place
It's arguing against options, because they feel everyone should play the way they do. It's good enough for them, so why isn't it good enough for you? Meanwhile the "I would like more UI/options" crew almost always argue for their requests to be handled as "something that could be turned on if the user wanted it." The opposition wants to force everyone to play like them, the requestors simply want things they can selectively enable if they choose to.
It's arguing against information. Ignorance is not a feature. If you, as a player, choose to be ignorant (which means uninformed or under educated about a subject or topic) then that is your choice. Just because you are fine not knowing doesn't mean everyone else should be forced to not know. That's akin to telling scientists they aren't allowed to do research because you, personally, have a distaste for science.
The API doesn't give us enough information to build add-ons to cover the gaps in this game's UI. No amount of arguing or telling us how wrong we are is going to change that irrefutable fact. This is an MMO. This is played online, in multi-player mode on a massive server. That is the definition of MMO. It doesn't matter how much it is or isn't flavored like The Elder Scrolls. And that's a lowsy excuse for not having access to basic MMO information.
DID YOU KNOW that more than half of the bugs found with combat actions and balance during beta and PTS can be attributed to API functions, and add-ons, which have since been nerfed or completely disabled?
Like it or not, when multiple people play a massive game like this online BALANCE matters. Being able to use INFORMATION and DATA to analyze your own performance to IMPROVE your play MATTERS. Being able to see that a debuff actually landed so that you can decide to not waste more magicka re-applying it MATTERS. Being able to see when a 20-second buff is about to fade, more clearly, so that you can re-apply it as it fades to get more optimal buff coverage MATTERS.
While you're happy staring at your glowy health bar, mentally deciphering what that glow is or isn't and running mental calculations about how long you think it's been up and when it's about to fade... you're missing critical game components all around you while you do so. The more time you spend analyzing this or that particular game-provided glowy graphic, the less time you spend experiencing the rest of the game around you. Arguing for lack of UI for the sake of immersion is actually arguing against immersion because the lack of informative UI elements pulls you away from the rest of the game.
Anyway... I could go on this diatribe all day. Those that need this wake up call won't read it, and those that can't understand it or already agree with it will. That's how forums work. So, I'm done for now.
The post was moved to the top since I selected it as best answer (since I lost hope of ZOS every answering on this subject and I couldn't have said it better than Wykkyd). Quoting it again.
Atta boy. Thanks for the heads up.0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't know much about such boring stuff like programming and API. My fear would be, that as soon as these things are implemented, that many here want, it opens the gates for addons to get information, I definetly don't want anyone besides me to have.
I don't think that anyone besides ZOS could take away that fear and maybe other players have the same fear.
If you're worrying about gear inspection, it's probably never gonna be implemented seeing how many WOW haters with post traumatic stress play the game.0 -
Leijona✭✭✭✭✭If you're worrying about gear inspection, it's probably never gonna be implemented seeing how many WOW haters with post traumatic stress play the game.
I'm worrying about much more. I don't want anyone to see my buffs or my debuffs. Or what buffs I do on someone else. And I don't want anyone to see, how high my armor is or my crit chance.3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you're worrying about gear inspection, it's probably never gonna be implemented seeing how many WOW haters with post traumatic stress play the game.
I'm worrying about much more. I don't want anyone to see my buffs or my debuffs. Or what buffs I do on someone else. And I don't want anyone to see, how high my armor is or my crit chance.
We can already see buffs like Emperor, food buff though.0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭R1ckyDaMan wrote: »People wanting more and more information available is a L2P issue.
Actually, people who want more information are prolly better at this game than you could ever dream to be which is probably why you're so much against this
5 -
Sunrock✭✭✭The people arguing against changes to the UI come from one of three camps:
1 - They don't want more UI themselves, so don't think it should be there at all.
2 - They don't understand that add-ons don't have access to the information we're after, so don't understand that telling us add-ons are our options is a pointless endeavor
3 - They think that us having options will force them to use those options to stay competitive, when in most cases they aren't actually competing in the first place
*snip*
You for got
#4 - They know that allowing addons introduce allot more bugs to a already very buggy game.
0 -
R1ckyDaMan✭✭✭✭Yep that is why I can complete anything just fine without needing a single addon and you lot are crying for more information...1 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭R1ckyDaMan wrote: »Yep that is why I can complete anything just fine without needing a single addon and you lot are crying for more information...
Well if people like carrying newbs it's their problem.
The people arguing against changes to the UI come from one of three camps:
1 - They don't want more UI themselves, so don't think it should be there at all.
2 - They don't understand that add-ons don't have access to the information we're after, so don't understand that telling us add-ons are our options is a pointless endeavor
3 - They think that us having options will force them to use those options to stay competitive, when in most cases they aren't actually competing in the first place
*snip*
You for got
#4 - They know that allowing addons introduce allot more bugs to a already very buggy game.
Addons don't introduce bugs since it's just calling API functions that return information. You're not tapping into the game, you're not tapping into the server. The only bugs that appear come from mistakes during the addon development and changes in the API and they only appear for the person using the addon, which is why we would like ZOS to support them.0 -
r.jan_emailb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭R1ckyDaMan wrote: »Yep that is why I can complete anything just fine without needing a single addon and you lot are crying for more information...
That's the case because there is no real challenge in this game besides the new trial. I want to play top notch, so I need more information. If you don't want it, fine with me. But that's no reason why I shouldn't have that possibility (aka a useful interface).
Lairgren | DC Dragonknight - August Palatine
playing for eXile
I'm done, CU somewhere else.2 -
R1ckyDaMan✭✭✭✭r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »R1ckyDaMan wrote: »Yep that is why I can complete anything just fine without needing a single addon and you lot are crying for more information...
That's the case because there is no real challenge in this game besides the new trial. I want to play top notch, so I need more information. If you don't want it, fine with me. But that's no reason why I shouldn't have that possibility (aka a useful interface).
The interface is fine for what the game provides, if that is not good for you then maybe go play a game that is good for you?
COD has zombies, should battlefield use them too?
This is ESO, call it dumbed down compared to the super calculators that you are used to but it is what it is.0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭R1ckyDaMan wrote: »r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »R1ckyDaMan wrote: »Yep that is why I can complete anything just fine without needing a single addon and you lot are crying for more information...
That's the case because there is no real challenge in this game besides the new trial. I want to play top notch, so I need more information. If you don't want it, fine with me. But that's no reason why I shouldn't have that possibility (aka a useful interface).
The interface is fine for what the game provides, if that is not good for you then maybe go play a game that is good for you?
COD has zombies, should battlefield use them too?
This is ESO, call it dumbed down compared to the super calculators that you are used to but it is what it is.
There is no way you can pull a good DPS in any end game content without FTC and even if you, by some miracle, do, it's because you're using builds that where theorycrafted by people using addons so it's not fine for what the game provides.
Just because current UI sucks because ZOS prefers to make people do their job instead of paying UI designers it doesn't mean it should be this way.
If you want to play a solo easy game then maybe you should go back to skyrim or oblivion?
I think the following quote sums up pretty well how you experience all the content, aka by making others carry you:R1ckyDaMan wrote: »Yeah I do not like grouping, but I like turning up and a group of you getting the job done if you get me.Edited by TehMagnus on September 29, 2014 12:06PM0 -
r.jan_emailb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭R1ckyDaMan wrote: »r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »R1ckyDaMan wrote: »Yep that is why I can complete anything just fine without needing a single addon and you lot are crying for more information...
That's the case because there is no real challenge in this game besides the new trial. I want to play top notch, so I need more information. If you don't want it, fine with me. But that's no reason why I shouldn't have that possibility (aka a useful interface).
The interface is fine for what the game provides, if that is not good for you then maybe go play a game that is good for you?
[snip]
It is not. Iirc, we are supposed to tell what happens from the animations ingame. While this is possible if you're playing on your own (for this, the standard UI is enough, thats right) it's bad for group play. I can't tell if my buffs/debuffs are still up or not; I can't even tell if my skills are working as I expect them to work. That's where addons are needed. Or can you tell me, how debuffs work on bosses? If dots are overwritten by another player using the same skill? How to manage magicka-efficient uptime of half a dozen buffs/debuffs? How would you find out the mechanics for skills (what they scale off, etc.) without reliable feedback? Oh, and did you know that there are/have been a few bugged skills and stats which most likely would have not been discovered without people using addons?Lairgren | DC Dragonknight - August Palatine
playing for eXile
I'm done, CU somewhere else.1 -
michaelb14a_ESO2✭✭✭✭$10 this game doesn't ever make it to consoles... and if it does, anyone remember "Two Worlds" when it was released? ESO barely functions on the PC game mechanics wise. I can't imagine how aweful and sluggish it would be on a console. You think they are slow fixing things and getting hot fixes our on the PC? Imagine when every update has to clear and get approval from Microsoft or Sony before even going out....complete nightmare.2 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »R1ckyDaMan wrote: »r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »R1ckyDaMan wrote: »Yep that is why I can complete anything just fine without needing a single addon and you lot are crying for more information...
That's the case because there is no real challenge in this game besides the new trial. I want to play top notch, so I need more information. If you don't want it, fine with me. But that's no reason why I shouldn't have that possibility (aka a useful interface).
The interface is fine for what the game provides, if that is not good for you then maybe go play a game that is good for you?
[snip]
It is not. Iirc, we are supposed to tell what happens from the animations ingame. While this is possible if you're playing on your own (for this, the standard UI is enough, thats right) it's bad for group play. I can't tell if my buffs/debuffs are still up or not; I can't even tell if my skills are working as I expect them to work. That's where addons are needed. Or can you tell me, how debuffs work on bosses? If dots are overwritten by another player using the same skill? How to manage magicka-efficient uptime of half a dozen buffs/debuffs? How would you find out the mechanics for skills (what they scale off, etc.) without reliable feedback? Oh, and did you know that there are/have been a few bugged skills and stats which most likely would have not been discovered without people using addons?
All of that can be covered in a combat log. It doesn't have to be on screen.Anything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
zhevon✭✭✭✭I just want to see my buffs and debuffs; that is my immediate need. When I am fighting a boss and suddenly go into slow motion mode I want to know what kind of arbitrary crap is being thrown at me. Its <bleeping> ridiculous that I have to play guess the effect (if indeed they bothered to put an effect there)1
-
r.jan_emailb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »R1ckyDaMan wrote: »r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »R1ckyDaMan wrote: »Yep that is why I can complete anything just fine without needing a single addon and you lot are crying for more information...
That's the case because there is no real challenge in this game besides the new trial. I want to play top notch, so I need more information. If you don't want it, fine with me. But that's no reason why I shouldn't have that possibility (aka a useful interface).
The interface is fine for what the game provides, if that is not good for you then maybe go play a game that is good for you?
[snip]
It is not. Iirc, we are supposed to tell what happens from the animations ingame. While this is possible if you're playing on your own (for this, the standard UI is enough, thats right) it's bad for group play. I can't tell if my buffs/debuffs are still up or not; I can't even tell if my skills are working as I expect them to work. That's where addons are needed. Or can you tell me, how debuffs work on bosses? If dots are overwritten by another player using the same skill? How to manage magicka-efficient uptime of half a dozen buffs/debuffs? How would you find out the mechanics for skills (what they scale off, etc.) without reliable feedback? Oh, and did you know that there are/have been a few bugged skills and stats which most likely would have not been discovered without people using addons?
All of that can be covered in a combat log. It doesn't have to be on screen.
Doesn't need to be on the screen; I'm fine with addons regarding this, but they are a little bit too limited regarding buff/debuff timers. Also, remember that this game has no combat log on its own.Lairgren | DC Dragonknight - August Palatine
playing for eXile
I'm done, CU somewhere else.1 -
zhevon✭✭✭✭
Probably right, and its sad they broke the UI for the consoles if it will never show up there.michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »$10 this game doesn't ever make it to consoles... and if it does, anyone remember "Two Worlds" when it was released? ESO barely functions on the PC game mechanics wise. I can't imagine how aweful and sluggish it would be on a console. You think they are slow fixing things and getting hot fixes our on the PC? Imagine when every update has to clear and get approval from Microsoft or Sony before even going out....complete nightmare.
If it does show up my guess it will be delayed long enough and show up on XB1 and PS4 only.2 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »R1ckyDaMan wrote: »r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »R1ckyDaMan wrote: »Yep that is why I can complete anything just fine without needing a single addon and you lot are crying for more information...
That's the case because there is no real challenge in this game besides the new trial. I want to play top notch, so I need more information. If you don't want it, fine with me. But that's no reason why I shouldn't have that possibility (aka a useful interface).
The interface is fine for what the game provides, if that is not good for you then maybe go play a game that is good for you?
[snip]
It is not. Iirc, we are supposed to tell what happens from the animations ingame. While this is possible if you're playing on your own (for this, the standard UI is enough, thats right) it's bad for group play. I can't tell if my buffs/debuffs are still up or not; I can't even tell if my skills are working as I expect them to work. That's where addons are needed. Or can you tell me, how debuffs work on bosses? If dots are overwritten by another player using the same skill? How to manage magicka-efficient uptime of half a dozen buffs/debuffs? How would you find out the mechanics for skills (what they scale off, etc.) without reliable feedback? Oh, and did you know that there are/have been a few bugged skills and stats which most likely would have not been discovered without people using addons?
All of that can be covered in a combat log. It doesn't have to be on screen.
Doesn't need to be on the screen; I'm fine with addons regarding this, but they are a little bit too limited regarding buff/debuff timers. Also, remember that this game has no combat log on its own.
I am saying ESO should have a thoroughly comprehensive combat log at log level 1000 .....just no need for it to be on screen. Edited by Rune_Relic on September 29, 2014 12:54PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »
Why does it have to go that far?? We just talking about the option to have a reliable mini map and options for some other stuff. We should have it all and let US decide what we want on the screen. They have essentially dictated that we play with no UI but given us the option to download player made ones. I'm sorry that just screams of laziness.dragonhawk wrote: »
~looks at the video and thank the Eight that ESO is not like that~
Way Way too much "stuff" on the screen. We are playing the game, not UI last time I checked.
I checked out the video. Ya , there is alot on screen but nobody here is suggesting a HUD like that be forced on anyone. The general consensus seems to be favor a HUD you can customize, pick and choose what you want on screen and where. It's not an unreasonable request considering the state of UI and HUDs from major MMO's over the last decade.
The sad truth is ZOS's HUD/UI design is horrible. The horror that is the UI wastes a ton of my time picking through items that aren't sorted by type, (addon fixed), scrolling menus that don't grid my inventory, arrrrg (addon fixed) No tabbed inventory so items I'm looking for have to be found among the rest (addon fixed). Then you have features that you can't even tell if you have a thing like a recipe or motif or skill or open research slots unless you go to the crafting table and open it up? WTF is that? That is not minimalist. That is stupid. (addon fixed). For the $$$ and time spent developing this game it really is something someone should get their rear chewed for.
Can you imagine if a luxury car was developed with a great engine, awesome paint job, nice design, then the interior and things available to use the car were not there. Doors don't open, have to climb through window, shift 4 gears for every 1 gear step, seats don't adjust, mirrors fixed, windows have no roller or auto-switch. You just have to grab it and pull up or push down. No storage compartments except the trunk. No glove box, no console storage, no cup holders, no side pockets, back of seat pockets, place for auto-documents like insurance and registration. It all goes in the trunk and you have to get out of the car, open the trunk and find whatever the hell your looking for with all the other trash and crap you might keep in your car, but the manufacturer called it minimalist...lols. That's equivalent to ESO's HUD / UI. Really ZoS? Love the game in SO SO many ways but this...really? It's just terrible design whatever you want to call it.
Love the game. I sub. I play more than my family would like, but once again I'm playing a TES game that would be otherwise unplayable if not for the mod/addon community fixing things the the devs don't think of that they really should have.
Edited by Vizier on September 29, 2014 1:19PM2 -
mutharex✭✭✭✭✭
Probably right, and its sad they broke the UI for the consoles if it will never show up there.michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »$10 this game doesn't ever make it to consoles... and if it does, anyone remember "Two Worlds" when it was released? ESO barely functions on the PC game mechanics wise. I can't imagine how aweful and sluggish it would be on a console. You think they are slow fixing things and getting hot fixes our on the PC? Imagine when every update has to clear and get approval from Microsoft or Sony before even going out....complete nightmare.
If it does show up my guess it will be delayed long enough and show up on XB1 and PS4 only.
Someone never played a TES game before, evidently.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiMTVeWgrRU