Upcoming Werewolf Changes

natewook

you guys are coming close to twenty pages of all pvp suggestions and you're starting to repeat each other...don't you think the dev get the point after all seventeen pages?

ExiledKhallisi

My guess is @Thejollygreenone‌ is actually an avid vampire/magic a user who wants to see stamina and werewolf buffs not actually be buffs. Your logic makes no sense at all.

You think its OK for werewolf ultimate to deal LESS or EQUAL DPS to human form. That makes the ultimate useless. Would rather keep all my human form utility and use a beneficial ultimate skipping the poison vulnerability.

You are the only anti buff advocate for stamina I have seen.

Thejollygreenone

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

My guess is @Thejollygreenone‌ is actually an avid vampire/magic a user who wants to see stamina and werewolf buffs not actually be buffs. Your logic makes no sense at all.

You think its OK for werewolf ultimate to deal LESS or EQUAL DPS to human form. That makes the ultimate useless. Would rather keep all my human form utility and use a beneficial ultimate skipping the poison vulnerability.

You are the only anti buff advocate for stamina I have seen.

And you create outrageously false arguments for your opponents like a straw man to knock them down with ease.

The only thing that I've tried to bring up is simply this:
My own werewolf dps is equal or higher than my own human form dps, and is even going to further get increased in 1.5.2. I am OK with this. I'm sorry to hear that others aren't.

Nothing you've described is one bit related to my viewpoint. Nor am I an anti-buff advocate. I'm anti-buffing WW more than is needed. We don't even know how strong we will be in 1.5.2.

Again, if people are just going to use me as a scapegoat to argue against, I want no part in this thread. Have fun being angry about nothing. /actually leaving, please stop quoting/mentioning me, especially when trying to market ideas as mine that I've never stated.

Good day disgruntled werewolves*

Sincerely,
Contended werewolf.

(Not even going to even bother denying that I've ever been a vampire, even if I screenshotted my lack of the achievement, I doubt you'd believe me anyway considering how you've reacted to my posts in the past)

BTW, since when was playing devil's advocate such an awful horribly monstrous thing? I think it's necessary for someone to in making any progress in such debates/brainstorming sessions. It seems whenever I try I get immediately deemed as illogical opposition that is no matter what incorrect. Jeez.

gsas93

You're discussing the wrong thing.
The focus here should be the current status of the WW skill line.
As far as skills, damage, sustain and sprint (lets not forget that =D) goes, I believe it is okay. The new skills and stuff guive Werewolf builds a lot more variaty, and that's really good.

Werewolf should deal more damage in werewolf form then in normal form? Yes, I think so. However, currently it already does (using the right skills at the right time).

As for RP, I believe everyone agrees that a costume would solve the issue, regardless of beeing the best option or not. However we need to remember that when Justice System gets to the PTS, those would probably disappear, as I believe ZOS will make werewolves be hunted by guards when in werewolf form. It makes sense and I'll be glad if it happens. It already does in Skyrim, so that's supposed to happen. At that time, RP will have to happen differently, or you can just go on a rampage killing guards (why not? that would be amazing too).

The single issue here that EVERYONE agrees upon, is the timer. It doesn't make sense at all. Even in Skyrim, you can sustain the form a LOT LONGER. It simply doesn't make sense to be a werewolf for 30 seconds only. We need more time as a Werewolf, its not about how often, but how long! If @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ want us to give up, they're at the right path.

natewook

i agree with you guys on the werewolf passives i mean they should have buffs just look at those vamps they get all kinds of powerful buffs all the time. they can't make it a toggle so you are only powerful for so long think about it...

Milf_Hero

They reworked some of our passives and gave us one out of form. I wouldn't mind them taking the ww passives and making them active all the time. in form and out of form. The first passive in the skill line has to do with more stamina return on heavy attacks. I think that's funny. Id like to swerve away from this heavy attack junk. They did the same for 2 handers. the Follow up passive, More damage on your next attack by 10%. The 2 hander is slow as a snail. 10% damage boost on your next attack isn't gonna help make up and improve the damage that you would have done with out doing the heavy attack in the first place. I don't heavy attack a lot. I don't think any one else does either. its pretty useless to me.

Thejollygreenone

***_Hero wrote: »

I don't heavy attack a lot. I don't think any one else does either. its pretty useless to me.

Heavy attacking is a pretty important part of pve DW and 2h single target dps. For DW, the general rotation is swapping flurries with heavy attacks, for 2h it's wrecking blow with heavy attacks. These combinations of abilities produce respectable sustainable numbers in the right hands.

Just wanted to point out that a bunch of other people do use heavy attacks. While there are also people who don't use heavy attacks like yourself, just felt I'd like to clarify. They do indeed have a use, and many people use them including myself. It's ok if you don't though of course, whatever works for the individual is what I say.

Although ultimately as this pertains to WW I would agree with you, I don't think anyone is going to be using fully charged werewolf heavy attacks in a pve rotation, it's just WAY too clunky, whereas it fits nicely in the rotations for 2h/DW. Partially charged heavies are used in the WW rotation and it's much better, but as far as I know that doesn't trigger the stamina gain, therefore making the passive a bit useless.

So while I'd argue that heavy attacks as a whole aren't useless, I would wholeheartedly agree that fully charged heavy attacks in WW form are useless, which makes the WW passive in question equally useless.

EDIT: The fact that any abilities or combat mechanics are 'too clunky to use' is a really big problem, which is in desperate need of some animation fixes, imo. Just noticing how sad of a sentence part that is: 'too clunky to use'. Maybe some day there will be no abilities too clunky ^.^

Milf_Hero

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

***_Hero wrote: »

I don't heavy attack a lot. I don't think any one else does either. its pretty useless to me.

Heavy attacking is a pretty important part of pve DW and 2h single target dps. For DW, the general rotation is swapping flurries with heavy attacks, for 2h it's wrecking blow with heavy attacks. These combinations of abilities produce respectable sustainable numbers in the right hands.

Just wanted to point out that a bunch of other people do use heavy attacks. While there are also people who don't use heavy attacks like yourself, just felt I'd like to clarify. They do indeed have a use, and many people use them including myself. It's ok if you don't though of course, whatever works for the individual is what I say.

I didn't say I don't use heavy attacks. I just said not a lot. I use a 2hander. I myself hate wrecking blow. That moves is really needlessly slow. Executioner is more my style. You can weave it. wrecking blow.. not so much. And I sure wouldn't combine it with a heavy attack. but your right. to each his own. I may heavy attack to get my stam back if I have expelled all of my stamina or my personal favorite finishing rotation for a singular regular mob would be a heavy attack cancelled animation with executioner. For bosses, weaving executioner works wonders. Heavy attacks are useful for staff wielders. I havn't used to much of the duel wielding either. So it may be good for your NB. Not so good for my DK build. Maybe they should revamp a passive in DW for heavy attacks solely. SO I guess to be more specific, I think its useless to make hole passives around light and heavy attacks. Passives around any attack, chance to proc, or passives that are active and in use all the time such as player gets 5 percent increased healing, are far more useful to everyone. No matter how they play.

Thejollygreenone

***_Hero wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

***_Hero wrote: »

I don't heavy attack a lot. I don't think any one else does either. its pretty useless to me.

Heavy attacking is a pretty important part of pve DW and 2h single target dps. For DW, the general rotation is swapping flurries with heavy attacks, for 2h it's wrecking blow with heavy attacks. These combinations of abilities produce respectable sustainable numbers in the right hands.

Just wanted to point out that a bunch of other people do use heavy attacks. While there are also people who don't use heavy attacks like yourself, just felt I'd like to clarify. They do indeed have a use, and many people use them including myself. It's ok if you don't though of course, whatever works for the individual is what I say.

I didn't say I don't use heavy attacks. I just said not a lot. I use a 2hander. I myself hate wrecking blow. Idk why they insist on having something as slow as wrecking blow. Executioner is not a slow move. You can weave it. wrecking blow.. not so much. And I sure wouldn't combine it with a heavy attack. but your right. to each his own. I may heavy attack to get my stam back if I have expelled all of my stamina or my personal favorite finishing rotation for a singular regular mob would be a heavy attack cancelled animation with executioner. For bosses, weaving executioner works wonders. Heavy attacks are useful for staff wielders. I havn't used to much of the duel wielding either. So it may be good for your NB. Not so good for my DK build. SO I guess to be more specific, I think its useless to make hole passives around light and heavy attacks. Passives around any attack, chance to proc, or passives that are active and in use all the time such as player gets 5 percent increased healing, are far more useful to everyone. No matter how they play.

Indeed, you use what abilities that work for the playstyle and what you do with it. For open world pve and killing mobs, yeah heavy attacks or wrecking blow aren't going to be used back to back to make it worth it.

But I would like to argue your point about the effectiveness of simply weaving executioner instead of heavy attack-wrecking blow over longer duration fights (bosses, at least the one's that matter )

After 50% hp, it's ok I suppose, after 30% yeah it'll start working wonders. And in open world pve world bosses, one can get them to 50-30% pretty quickly, and duration isn't much of an issue.

However, when I bring up boss fights, I mean at it's roughest in something like Sanctum Ophidium hard mode Mantikora fight (first boss). Fights that last over 5 minutes, this is where rotations like flurry+heavy attack and wrecking blow+heavy attack become ideal, at least for the beginning half of the fight.

Particularly in the case of 2h (which is what I use), since getting to 50% or, ideally, 30% on these fights could take a very long time, your dps will suffer if your executioners are hitting like wet noodles for over two minutes (150-300 instead of 700+ non crits), as well as the fact that you'll run out of stamina before you even get to that point.

Furthermore, when weaving heavy attacks, you deem the time that it takes to cast them a disadvantage. I'd argue that said time is actually an advantage, in that it's adds stamina efficiency while keeping up respectable damage.

I'll just give you an example of some of the numbers I see when using wrecking blow-heavy attack in 1.5.

When both are properly buffed (incapacitate for 10% increased heavy attack damage, momentums up, and when wrecking blow has buffed the heavy attack, and the heavy attack has buffed the wrecking blow) I'll see 1400 wrecking blow crits followed by 1200 heavy attacks with no more than 1.2ish seconds in between.

Add on top of this that you will virtually never run out of stamina while doing this, and it allows you to keep up over 1.1k dps in the process, that's why it becomes the ideal rotation before a strong execute phase after 30%. This can be said for DW as well, although they have less buffing specifically to their heavy attacks.

However I feel I should also bring up, in the current patch, 1.4, you may be totally correct in skipping wrecking blow-heavy attack, as I can only get it to net me 800ish dps compared to the 1.2k I can achieve on the 1.5 pts. But once 1.5 comes around, I think it'll be the ideal rotation for non-short duration trial bosses.

But in the end, your point is about making passives centered around light/heavy attacks being less useful than more universal passives. So I can't help but add in this is a completely fair point, and I'm even inclined to agree with you, and that the things I've said in this post aren't attempting to contest that idea.

Just wanted to defend my position of using heavy attack rotations with DW or 2h in those extra long duration fights . ^.^

Milf_Hero

@Thejollygreenone‌ For my Dk, or really I guess, any other class could find weaving something else in place of wrecking blow and heavy attack to put out more damage. I myself use fiery whip weaving till he gets to around 30% which is where bam! Im suddenly the DPS with the big guns. Since im not the type to wear light armor and staff, where I can impulse all day like other dks, sorcs, and anyone else that uses that. Im not gonna question your 1200 heavy attacks and 1400 wrecking blow crits. Since this would lead to a possible page and a half discussion on the 2 hander and DW on a ww thread.

at least we can agree on one thing, the universal passives. Though if they want a reason to back it up, you may have shattered my argument and then they will keep working in heavy attack reliant passives. ugh.... thanks. jollygreenone. lol.

Thejollygreenone

***_Hero wrote: »

@Thejollygreenone‌ For my Dk, or really I guess, any other class could find weaving something else in place of wrecking blow and heavy attack to put out more damage. I myself use fiery whip weaving till he gets to around 30% which is where bam! Im suddenly the DPS with the big guns. Since im not the type to wear light armor and staff, where I can impulse all day like other dks, sorcs, and anyone else that uses that. Im not gonna question your 1200 heavy attacks and 1400 wrecking blow crits. Since this would lead to a possible page and a half discussion on the 2 hander and DW on a ww thread.

at least we can agree on one thing, the universal passives. Though if they want a reason to back it up, you may have shattered my argument and then they will keep working in heavy attack reliant passives. ugh.... thanks. jollygreenone. lol.

Sorry, the devil's advocate is strong in me. I can't help but question things from some very unpopular perspectives. >_<

If ZoS starts to tweak some of the heavy attacks to make them less clunky/garbage, then maybe they'd have some justification in making passives dedicated to them. At least in the areas where heavy attacks are virtually unusably clunky. (ww form, bow, fire/frost destro staff all come to mind)

I think it's safe to say the werewolf passive for increased stamina gain on heavy attacks specifically is a complete dud right now. Maybe it'll get some scant few uses in pvp where you'll be actually using stamina, but the pve sustained rotation is all light/partial heavies, and stamina regen isn't even an issue.

P.S. if you're feelin motivated, we can pm and I can get you a few screenshots of those crits, and maybe delve a bit deeper into this discussion about 2h sustained dps (I don't DW so there's not much more that can be said there)

natewook

LOL how did you make the troll face and more importantly i would love to see some werewolf dialog as you pass by the guards. And they say you smell like wet dog or you have an blood lust in you're eye my fiend... i don't want to stand to close.

Milf_Hero

natewook wrote: »

LOL how did you make the troll face and more importantly i would love to see some werewolf dialog as you pass by the guards. And they say you smell like wet dog or you have an blood lust in you're eye my fiend... i don't want to stand to close.

-->( :troll face: )<-- without the space inbetween troll and face.

Kypho

ZoS just dont give a s..t. WW players got a bone, they can now say "we improved WW we are good" but they are just a .....

Oronell

Created a poll if anyone's interested.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/138076/should-the-werewolf-world-skill-be-closer-to-an-ultimate-or-a-class-skill

Orchish

Couple of questions for the ww experts here.

Blood Rage passive, does this only work when the ww ult is on the same bar you are taking damage on? Example: Say i am on bar 1 with standard of might slotted, but i have the ww ult on bar 2, blood rage doesn't give me any ult gain unless i switch to bar 2 and take damage correct?

Question 2, for those that have been testing on PTS, is the ww ult still very expensive for what you get in return? Or has it been dropped down to 200 like standard? I am on EU and haven't been on PTS so haven't checked it out yet.

Rexlupis

Orchish wrote: »

Couple of questions for the ww experts here.

Blood Rage passive, does this only work when the ww ult is on the same bar you are taking damage on? Example: Say i am on bar 1 with standard of might slotted, but i have the ww ult on bar 2, blood rage doesn't give me any ult gain unless i switch to bar 2 and take damage correct?

You are correct, the werewolf ultimate needs to be on the active bar to receive the extra ultimate when taking damage. Yes, it does suck.

Question 2, for those that have been testing on PTS, is the ww ult still very expensive for what you get in return? Or has it been dropped down to 200 like standard? I am on EU and haven't been on PTS so haven't checked it out yet.

On the PTS the ultimate was still 400. According to 1.5.2 patch notes, they reduced it to 300, but I am still downloading the patch so I haven't seen for myself. On the PTS you still lose all ultimate accrued during the transformation.

It is still an awful waste of an incredible amount of skill points.

Thejollygreenone

Orchish wrote: »

Couple of questions for the ww experts here.

Blood Rage passive, does this only work when the ww ult is on the same bar you are taking damage on? Example: Say i am on bar 1 with standard of might slotted, but i have the ww ult on bar 2, blood rage doesn't give me any ult gain unless i switch to bar 2 and take damage correct?

Question 2, for those that have been testing on PTS, is the ww ult still very expensive for what you get in return? Or has it been dropped down to 200 like standard? I am on EU and haven't been on PTS so haven't checked it out yet.

Yes bloodrage effects you even if you don't have werewolf ultimate on either of your bars, and yes the ult cost has been dropped down a bit.

Started at 900, then dropped to 700, then to 400, now in this patch it's at 300. With a full Salvation set that's down to 200.

(Mine's 185, since I have 5% reduction in ult cost elsewhere.)

Rexlupis

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Yes bloodrage effects you even if you don't have werewolf ultimate on either of your bars...

That is not the experience I've had nor what the tool-tip says. I think you got it backwards. From everything I've seen it needs to be on the active bar to get extra ultimate while taking damage.

gsas93

No one here anymore?

Milf_Hero

Rexlupis wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Yes bloodrage effects you even if you don't have werewolf ultimate on either of your bars...

That is not the experience I've had nor what the tool-tip says. I think you got it backwards. From everything I've seen it needs to be on the active bar to get extra ultimate while taking damage.

You need it on the bar. It says it on its tooltip.

The next things the werewolf needs is ultimate gain retained when you change back and/or a werewolf ultimate. A separate energy bar like when your are on your horse for running on all fours out of combat, pretty stupid in my opinion if you chase your target down and then bam u can't pounce or anything and they can cc you and get away ( Just an example). The cost on werewolf abilities is kinda insane. You use 4 abilities and your effed. Or maybe 2 abilities and you block same damage or dodge. Sure heavy attack and you get what, 200 or 400 stamina back which you use all up in an ability or blocking again, then you back to 0 stamina. The cost of our stamina abilities could go down like all stamina abilities. in the 216-316 range. one our skills to have a morph to give a buff like immovable maybe... :P something to lighten the load on stamina... everything is stamina. its disgusting because its tided to other things that are not even abilities.

natewook

i just love the new updates right now i don't have a lot to say as far as werewolf improvements.

Darkonflare15

natewook wrote: »

i just love the new updates right now i don't have a lot to say as far as werewolf improvements.

I like now that the pack leader finally benefits from its ability. Even though its only few sec for per heavy attack, I can weave in with my attacks to keep my self in werewolf form. I see there trying to make heavy attacks more useful. I like this but if they can make it more useful in pvp then it would be a success.

draeganb16_ESO

The pack leader is finally more usefull ! 2 more seconds for a heavy attacks is a bit weak anyway. It is the time you need to make that heavy attack.

To help you stay in form during long boss fight, you need to spam heavy attack directly interrupted after 1 second by a skill to immediatly repeat that pattern. Sometime, just make a light attack to refresh the bleeding if needed.

Even with this trick, you cannot last permanently because it need you to make that everytime and it's not possible again certain bosses

GoodOrc

draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

The pack leader is finally more usefull ! 2 more seconds for a heavy attacks is a bit weak anyway. It is the time you need to make that heavy attack.

To help you stay in form during long boss fight, you need to spam heavy attack directly interrupted after 1 second by a skill to immediatly repeat that pattern. Sometime, just make a light attack to refresh the bleeding if needed.

Even with this trick, you cannot last permanently because it need you to make that everytime and it's not possible again certain bosses

But if you hawe 2 or more WW PL in paty you will be a full timer with those hawy atak!
Its kind cool me and my gild mate was kiling mobs in Clargorn araund 2.5 hours in form!
In boos you tern to WW - kick ass as long as you can, turn back - kick ass in Hf and then turn in WW again! (no other options I think ZOS is think its more balanced)

Orchish

So after playing a couple days of WW in both PvE and PvP (mainly PvP) i have to say that compared to what we had before it is a huge improvement. However, there are a couple of things i still don't like.

Since we won't be getting our wishes of having WW as a toggle and instead have a very short transform period, it's not very practical to use devour in PvP after killing a player as usually there is always another enemy with him who will also attack you and thus you will transform back way before you get the chance.

So considering we have such a short period in WW form, i have to ask why are the WW abilities so expensive? You literally use 3-4 attacks and you are completely out of stamina, factor in the fact that almost every single player has some kind of heal whether that be a class heal or a restro staff, you just cannot get enough damage off in the short amount of time allowed to really pose a threat. Any competent PvP player will easily survive a WW attack and considering it cost 300 Ult, as a DK i can drop Standard at 200 and get far more from it.

I believe the WW damage is fine, i just think the stamina cost for the abilities is very high. A Vampire can use his and kite around etc, a WW has a very short window before he is transformed back and in the hours I've spent trying it out in many different situations in PvP i have only found it useful in 1v1's against lower level opponents.

Sadly i will stick with my standard unless the cost of the ult is lowered or the abilities them selves are lowered.

I also think that the blood rage passive should work no matter what bar the WW Ult is on, as long as it's on one of your bars you should still gain ult.

If an Ultimate is more expensive than most(all?) other Ultimates, i really expect it to be up there with the best to justify the cost. Currently it's not, i still prefer batswarm as it's so quick to charge up i can get multiple bats off before i get a chance to use WW.

Another issue is when in WW form, any Ultimate that you gain is then lost upon transforming back into normal form. This really needs to change and any ultimate gained really should remain.

That said, overall it's a great improvement and actually fun to use when it comes to PvE at least. Certainly a step in the right direction here.

GoodOrc

WW still bugged while in transform animation! You die before transform! no one run scared! some times You just loose ultimaate but get no form! Its Suks!!!!!

Skizer78

After the changes from update 5 you would think everything would be good but trying to level the new skills at higher levels is tough considering how weak werewolves are and how short the transformation is. To bad the active abilities were not created to work while in human form and the transformation just an awesome ultimate.

ExiledKhallisi

Skizer78 wrote: »

After the changes from update 5 you would think everything would be good but trying to level the new skills at higher levels is tough considering how weak werewolves are and how short the transformation is. To bad the active abilities were not created to work while in human form and the transformation just an awesome ultimate.

You can still put the skills on your bar and level them not in werewolf form.

#Protip

draeganb16_ESO

@GoodOrc : After playing a lot of time in werewolf with 2 friends in dungeons since the update, I can assure you, heavy attack don't give time for the other but only for the one who heavy attack, you must have misread (I suggest you to read "ABCs for barbarians" to improve your skill, Orc :disagree: )

By the way, with the habit, you can improve your time by the little trick I gave you. I start a fight, full time thanks to feral pounce, I finish it 10 seconds later with only 2 or 3 seconds lost

PS : Werewolf is now almost unkillable in PvE with just another friend, thanks for the update !