Upcoming Werewolf Changes

Soris

I don't feel reading the whole topic but, is there a post somewhere in this topic where I can see the skills and morphs?

Wolfchild07

I think people have the right idea with the toggle, please do that.

On another note...the heavy attack...why am i clapping my hands together? It really is terrible, sorry. When you go up against enemy werewolves in pve their heavy attacks are a "barrage of claws". It does about 6 hits in succession, I think. Please implement this for us, it looks SO much better than clapping my hands for the enemy.

Serkillalot

not sure if this was mentioned but it would be nice to get different styles of werewolves and or war makeups and colorings like fir and the style

keithvsmith

+1 the toggle idea. The main drawback atm for me with the Werewolf is the timer.

+1 human form passives.

Also, it saddens me to see that even though the ultimate cost was reduced, the ultimate meter still resets.

Other than that, I like the new skills. I really enjoy mauling mobs left, right, and center. The heal being the biggest +.

We also need a way to edit the hotbar outside of the form.

Iduyenn

Well, with the new Ultimate Gain in P 1.6 WW will be even more fun

/ironie off

I realy hope there are champion points to invest for WW`s or i am still not using this ultimate (for wich i came back to the game...).

Milf_Hero

Iduyenn wrote: »

Well, with the new Ultimate Gain in P 1.6 WW will be even more fun

/ironie off

I realy hope there are champion points to invest for WW`s or i am still not using this ultimate (for wich i came back to the game...).

Funny, i came back for the ww as well and im still unhappy with it. Ha. fantastic how that works right? If Zos can't fix every ones problems in this next update and its following 1.6 and the inevitable hotfix and small path after it, then im callin it quits. This thing takes up way to much space on my computer for it not be entertaining me.

MornaBaine

***_Hero wrote: »

Iduyenn wrote: »

Well, with the new Ultimate Gain in P 1.6 WW will be even more fun

/ironie off

I realy hope there are champion points to invest for WW`s or i am still not using this ultimate (for wich i came back to the game...).

Funny, i came back for the ww as well and im still unhappy with it. Ha. fantastic how that works right? If Zos can't fix every ones problems in this next update and its following 1.6 and the inevitable hotfix and small path after it, then im callin it quits. This thing takes up way to much space on my computer for it not be entertaining me.

While werewolves ARE better now the fact is they still have a long way to go to be both viable and FUN. Sadly, I think ZOS thinks their work is done here.

Iago

The transformation should last longer

draeganb16_ESO

What do you think about the new passive Blood Rage ? I think it's the exact thing that missed for a good werewolf gameplay personnally, ZOS did well

Milf_Hero

Wasn't blood rage the ultimate generation out of form thing that was much needed even before the change to the new ultimate generation system?
I like the new blood rage passive but we also needed the old one. Plus the "OP" dragonknight standard got an ultimate cost increase to 250. Werewolf is still the highest ult cost at 325. And being a ww isnt that good. SO if its not OP why does it cost more than any other ultimate? reduce that ult cost and or bring back the old blood rage along with the new changes. It makes since to me that we would have the combination of both blood rage passives. The human would get more ult generatin frm taking hits and then in ww form it would keep your ultimate going from taking hits. Doesn't that seem right? Or is that asking to much?

Rexlupis

***_Hero wrote: »

Wasn't blood rage the ultimate generation out of form thing that was much needed even before the change to the new ultimate generation system?
I like the new blood rage passive but we also needed the old one. Plus the "OP" dragonknight standard got an ultimate cost increase to 250. Werewolf is still the highest ult cost at 325. And being a ww isnt that good. SO if its not OP why does it cost more than any other ultimate? reduce that ult cost and or bring back the old blood rage along with the new changes. It makes since to me that we would have the combination of both blood rage passives. The human would get more ult generatin frm taking hits and then in ww form it would keep your ultimate going from taking hits. Doesn't that seem right? Or is that asking to much?

Considering werewolf is the ONLY ultimate that does not allow generation of more ultimate while it is active, I would say that this would be more than fair. Of course, such a thing will continue the trend of not using the werewolf transformation at all and using the werewolf skill tree for the passives. Regardless, werewolf is still far from viable, especially considering its high ultimate cost and the insane amount of skill points that go into one, sub-par ultimate ability.
Personally, I think they could leave the new passive as is (without the ultimate generation in human form), increase the werewolf timer by at least double (even triple would be well within the realm of balanced, since while it is active no more ultimate can be generated) and reduce the cost of the transformation to 150 or less. Then it might approach being viable, especially with the removal of the soft-caps to weapon damage and stamina.
Also, it should be noted that while grouped the new passive won't really help very much. Since there is no taunt while in werewolf form, it is not viable to use while tanking. Thus, it is primarily a DPS skill. Since groups for dungeons and trials have tanks (and the fact that so many werewolf skills are CC's) the amount of incoming damage to a werewolf in werewolf form should be minimal, and thus, a very minimal increase to the actual transformation time. They could mitigate this by allowing each tick of damage to give a large increase to the timer (5 seconds or more).

draeganb16_ESO

Can somebody on the PTS can confirm that the Blood Rage passive contain both the old and the new version ? I suppose ZOS just keep the utli generation from the "older' version

ZeroNeonix

For RP, it would be nice if the werewolf timer wouldn't go down until after giving or receiving damage.

Would also be nice if we could retain Ultimate when we willingly transform back into our human state, taking into account how much time was left. I swear, there were multiple times in Cyrodiil when I tried to transform and got nothing. Figured out that it was taking multiple button presses due to the lag, taking the Ultimate, and skipping the animations.

Rexlupis

draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

Can somebody on the PTS can confirm that the Blood Rage passive contain both the old and the new version ? I suppose ZOS just keep the utli generation from the "older' version

I've played werewolf on the PTS quite a bit and I can confirm it does NOT generate ultimate anymore. It only increases your timer if you take damage while in werewolf form.

draeganb16_ESO

@Rexlupis : Fine, thanks for the info.

It's a not a that bad they remove that, too many people (especially tanks) took WW only for the ultimate buff. BUT in that case, the ultimate cost for the transformation is even more higher.

Please @ZOS, bring down the price of that, 200 to activate it at rank 4 would be a perfect cost, not too high, not too low.

Somebody can confirm me that the ultimate generation in 1.6 is lower than the live ? It'll be a real struggle to turn WW in PvP in that case....

Rexlupis

draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

@Rexlupis : Fine, thanks for the info.

It's a not a that bad they remove that, too many people (especially tanks) took WW only for the ultimate buff. BUT in that case, the ultimate cost for the transformation is even more higher.

Please @ZOS, bring down the price of that, 200 to activate it at rank 4 would be a perfect cost, not too high, not too low.

Somebody can confirm me that the ultimate generation in 1.6 is lower than the live ? It'll be a real struggle to turn WW in PvP in that case....

It is slower on the PTS versus live; how much slower depends on your build and if you are comparing overall ultimate generation versus ultimate generation within combat. Within combat, for DPS, it should only be slightly slower since you should almost always have the buff from weaving in light/heavy attacks in your rotation. From what I hear, for healers, it is slightly slower as well, but not immensely so... When I last played on the PTS as a tank (yesterday, but there was a patch today) ultimate generation was EXTREMELY slow, due to the fact that tanks aren't weaving in heavy/light attacks nearly as often as DPS, since you're primarily blocking. Thus, the buff for ultimate generation is far more likely to drop off a tank, causing them to generate absolutely no ultimate for a period of time.
Since you can not generate ultimate outside of combat once the buff expires (and its total duration is about 10 seconds if I recall correctly) overall ultimate generation is SEVERELY diminished for healers. You can't use equilibrium and have a healer heal you to help that healer generate ultimate, for example.

As for werewolf, considering that you can not generate ultimate while in werewolf form (something every other ultimate allows) and ultimate's increased worth, I'd say even 200 to activate the ability is not worth it... especially with the timer as it is. Even if they increased the timer to two full minutes (and scaled devour to still give about 40% of your time back, per) and reduced it to 150 ultimate, I highly doubt it will be used often. As it is on the PTS as I last played it, it is comparatively weaker than it was before (due to the increased value of ultimate and the removal of the passive ability to generate extra ultimate in human form) even with the soft-caps removed, which equates to higher potential damage for werewolf. Considering the most apt description I've heard of it on live was "Werewolf is awesome if you never transform!", I suspect unless some changes are made before this build is released the werewolf population on live will drastically decrease.
Keep in mind the transformation takes over 20 skill points to maximize its potential, and it still feels weaker than other ultimate options... There is something seriously imbalanced about that, and minor changes are not enough to account for such a massive discrepancy.

Shadow

I feel and I know a lot of players out there would agree with me in the fact that the werewolf form should be a toggle. There seems to be so much work put into the werewolf skill line for it last for such a little amount of time and the amount of skill points we have to invest into the skill line to master it makes it more of an actual class and playstyle rather than what it is.

Sure, if you're in constant combat you can sustain the form indefinitely but I found a major issue with that is I cant take the time out of grinding mobs to maintain the form to loot chests, barrels, etc. or talk to NPCs without skipping all dialogue just so that I can run back into battle so I don't lose the transformation. I cant exit dungeons nor look at my skills long because the timer still counts down while doing this. The form doesn't make you op in any way, and can still be killed with relative ease in PVP and having no range attack other than pounce and being melee and so stamina dependent can be weaknesses in themselves and with the poison damage taken along with the fighters guild perks, a werewolf is an easy target. It could easily be made where the transformation would still occupy the ultimate slot but be a toggle so you can transform at will.

In PVP you can still be caught off guard if your not in werewolf form as it takes time to transform and in some cases you could be killed before making it to your wolf form. You could even make the werewolf negatives affect your human form as well as your wolf form to help any issues with balance that you may see, which I believe they should if this ability is to be a toggle. Not only from a combat standpoint but any RPers out there that would like to add a werewolf element to their RP cant fully do that due to the fact that your form doesn't last for long at all. With the werewolves current damage, a toggle form would be perfect and I don't see how it would be op in any aspect of the game. You would have to rework feral pounce morph, pack leader morph and a couple passives but none of that seems out of perspective.

I would love to see my werewolf form become part of my playstyle rather than a DPS buff every now and then for a very short amount of time. Only other issue I can see with using this ability as a toggle is that you would have to be able to gain weapon and armor levels while changed which again I don't see that being a complicated change.

Pazrael

Well said Shadow... I was honestly hoping they would make it toggle after 1.6 with the whole justice system. For example, if people see you as a werewolf, they should run/flee/fight depending on the npc, build a death bounty instead of just criminal, kind of like i feel a stage 4 vampire should be quite noticeable by guards due to the pail skin and fangs where as if you manage to feed and keep your stages minimal it should be hidden. But that's a different topic.
When I saw their decision of the adding of a bunch of skills which require you to be in a mode that lasts seconds, I laughed. I don't even know what the hell was going through their head with this concept as it convinces no one to think in any way shape or form that it is worth a rats dime... I've believed that werewolf/vamp/normal should have been a decision from the start just like dragon knight and any other class, maybe not from the choice selection, but once turned it should be an entirely new combat skill line, not some useless ultimate that uses an entire skill line of skill points for no reason. I've already quit this game due to the lack of interest to make vamp/werewolf an actual play style. In all the other elderscrolls vamps were sensitive to the sun and all sorts of things, I understand that could be an issue, but dear me, there is no story that makes sense with either of them in this game, no play style change, the reason vamp is used by 99% is because it doesn't have to "transform" plain and simple I personally think many of the skills werewolf gets, like pounce should actually be able to be used as a human, they are supernatural, if a vamp can turn into a swarm at will, why the hell can a werewolf not use certain abilities showing their supernatural strength outside of ww form. I agree the transformation as an ultimate but i think much of the build around ww very much confusing useless updates trying to make something created horribly better by stacking more on top of it. You can't build a structure amazing with bad foundation, and the same to this, change the basic fundamentals to the point that they work, then add to it to show its potential. till I see ww a viable thing that looks fun to play, I'll continue to look into other games.

Chrlynsch

@Shadow spot on It should be a toggle. We should be vulnerable to poison and fighters guild in human form maybe to a lesser degree. Give us a toggle for the skill... maybe a low ultimate cost (20ish). City Guards should attack us on sight while in form.

Changes to abilities to make WW work

-Pack leader increase health by 10% and damage mitigation by 10% while in werewolf form.

-Single target pounce changed to a taunt.

-Change call of the pack to reduce sprint costs

-Change blood rage to a 10% damage increase/30%Speed buff after kill For 10 sec

-Devour increases all regen for 1 min by 20%

draeganb16_ESO

Prothwata wrote: »

Changes to abilities to make WW work

-Pack leader increase health by 10% and damage mitigation by 10% while in werewolf form.

-Single target pounce changed to a taunt.

-Change call of the pack to reduce sprint costs

-Change blood rage to a 10% damage increase/30%Speed buff after kill For 10 sec

-Devour increases all regen for 1 min by 20%

I like your suggestions but as a develloper answered before in this thread, "it's not technically possible to make the Werewolf Ultimate toggable." So we have to play with the timer

Chrlynsch

It is technically possible to make it a toggle. .. to say they can't is just lazy. The werewolf quest itself let's you stay in form indefinitely... The shrine stops your timer. Heck they even fixed a glitch that allowed you to stay in form forever, to say they can't is a lie to say they wont is the reality. Really though they just don't want to listen to their community.

Shadow

That is completely true. how can it not be a toggle. Currently you can activate it and deactivate it. Hence a toggle concept. Just remove timer for the form and bam. Toggle form.

Shadow

And for anyone who would say it is op to have us remain in form indefinitely just remember that currently we can sustain our form indefinitely so long as we are in combat. so we are not asking for much to allow us to remain in form while not in combat

b-l-a-d-eb16_ESO

Hi, why dont you care about lags and client stability first. Thats what should be improved. Before you didnt finish that any other change is useless because its laggy and buggy.

Chrlynsch

b-l-a-d-eb16_ESO wrote: »

Hi, why dont you care about lags and client stability first. Thats what should be improved. Before you didnt finish that any other change is useless because its laggy and buggy.

Because client and server people deal with client and server problems. @ZOS is working on hundreds of different things at any given time... Think of it as a grocery store... While some skills may overlap areas you really can't expect a Butcher to make your wedding cake. Throwing more butchers at a bakery won't help, but bringing in some more bakers may.

Butcher keep butching.

bbqwolf13b14_ESO1

Shadow wrote: »

That is completely true. how can it not be a toggle. Currently you can activate it and deactivate it. Hence a toggle concept. Just remove timer for the form and bam. Toggle form.

Since they already have Overload for Sorc so it cant be that hard to figure out. Like most think, it is just looking like lazy is answer since in pvp WW can be killed pretty easy. Hopefully they will come back and really talk to us on forums.....if they ever have.

Airik32180

Don't forget about vampires !!! For quite a few players, one of the lures to elder scrolls online along with its solo player games is the fact you can play a vampire or werewolf. While balance of course is a primary key, adding a few abilities seen in other games and NPC's for that matter would be even more alluring to potential players. Players like myself came to elder scrolls for the sole reason of being able to play a vampire or werewolf....

An example: Let's use the vampire thrall from the dominion quest line, they can do a teleport right on top of their prey. Such a power could be employed by vampire players.

I realize that each skill line typically has about ten spots, so thinking outside the box, why not have vampire or werewolf moved from world, to an additional race skill line after all you are joining another race.

Adding a few minor powers to make playing both races a bit more alluring could be a great thing, for example as mentioned above the short distance teleport that blood thralls use which is akin to the sorcerer's bolt escape only of course without damage upon arrival or using it as an escape.

You could also approach this by adding a new skill line, or making improvements to the current ones that only vampire or werewolf players can access. Using again vampires as the example it would be nice to have enriched story lines and quests added to the game. The blood matron when you turn, tells you to form families, this now becomes a quest line leading to a vampire guild akin to the mage/fighter's guilds. Which would either add a new skill line, or improve and add new skills to the vampire skill line itself. The quest-line like the mage guild would be to create safe havens for vampires near player cities which would be in a graveyard and the entrance would be a cliche but a mausoleum. Players would need to do quests that involved recruiting by making thralls to help build these under ground safe havens which would start the set of daily quests to keep vampire players busy. Several other quest ideas could come from this as well for we all know the Blood Matron has a hatred for Molag Bal for making her the first vampire and she does vow they will rise up against him. This again is a possible quest idea along with countless other daily quests to keep the haven's safe and populated with vampires or willing victims. Once the haven is constructed the blood matron now resides in the haven or at least a shrine in each one for those that have been bitten. The haven would have vendors, and quests which would lead to vampire based weapons, gaining new skill sets, and prompting possible pvp attacks by the fighters guild or dawn guard should it be added. Gaining the new skill line which could be named Vampire Lord after the skyrim version which could include some of the following vampire power examples.

Possible power additions.

Telekinesis- which would be nothing more than either knock back that causes damage or a stun.

Claws- When you encounter vampires in the wild they don't have weapons... but they sure do try to claw you... The same needs to be of vampire players by adding a power that allows you to grow claws in the place of a weapon.

An activated form of blood ritual which replaces the former passive blood ritual. It allows vampire players to create an area of effect around them in which they can turn willing players. This still can only be performed every so many days and the player being turned still has to carry out the quest line of the blood matron. Changes to this however is the player being infected HAS to either carry out the quest or find a cure, other wise they become a lessor vampire such as a thrall when it ends, and gives them a very limited blood thrall skill line that only includes feeding and blood drain which again would force them to either complete the quest or a cure.

Bat form- Taking the form of a giant bat which could be a combat ability, or an ability to move quickly to escape a fight.

Seduction- which is a very limited stun that would allow a vampire player to feed on a city or combat NPC and allow them to escape before the effect wore off. This could also be used in combat.

Blink- ( or some other name) Like the NPC blood fiends, this ability allows the player to teleport a distance away from where they are. It would have a low mana cost as it causes no damage upon arrival. Somewhat like the mage's bolt escape power.



The vampire sanctuary could be in every city, and of course have shrine to the Blood Matron in each one. These areas could be a meeting place for vampire characters to go for vampire specific repeatable daily quests, as well as vendors in the sanctum. ( the same should be for werewolf players having their own sanctum of sorts)

Disadvantages


GUARDS CHASE YOU!- at stage 3&4 you obviously don't look mortal any more and should prompt guards to fight the vampire threat. This also would add another feature, vampires like theft, can sneak to feed on city NPC's and if caught of course causes a bounty. (Werewolf players on full moons or at night in the game should also face having physical changes if they haven't fully fed (requiring) them to feed on woodland animals at night to give them back their appearance (example they could get furry faces or something at night to make guards suspicious)

Arkay Priests could be added to cities in which their very presence causes vampires to stage faster than normal should they stay around an Arkay symbol for too long.....

Changing the feeding animation- You're a vampire! you have fangs, some vampire players truly enjoy the an animation of actually biting your victim instead of sucking blood through the air. While you could still do the blood sucking through the air on enemy NPC's but vampires having to feed in a city on non combat NPC's should have an actual bite animation, or feeding on those sleeping which would require vampires to lock pick to get into houses at night to feed on sleeping residents.

A travel power to replace the horse for vampires and werewolves could be interesting, vampires could assume the giant bat form, and werewolves have an increased running speed, or both of them have a running element that would allow them to run fast for travel.


Adding the Dawnguard skill line- add a dawngaurd guild which only non vampire players and non werewolf players can join. I realize that the fighters guild has a dawnguard power, but that too could be re-vamped so to speak. Adding this of course should have some strong perks for not turning vampire or werewolf and give players some abilities to balance things out should they encounter vampires and werewolves in PvP.

Pazrael

Erm not to be rude @Airik32180, but your entire post is talking about vampires other than the random vampires "and ww" honestly I've thought this from the start, what you say of skill lines, but in turn, I actually think it is actually alright the way they have done it, I just also think that as we see werewolves right now, the mutation needs to be toggle, becoming werewolf is it's ultimate power. 2 major downfalls to this, one major downfall being a ww can't fight against any other decent player in pvp, nor in my opinion survive properly in late game solo content. if they want to make it viable with that many skill points, becoming a ww should be toggle based and it should give advantages and disadvantages that make playing a ww viable as playing another class.

On a side note to talk about what your asking of vampire update, many of the skills you mention to add are in other classes, and that is the idea I think they had on vampires to begin with. I mingle of class and vamp abilities, for example NB gains a teleport atack that stuns, instead of asking for such a skill as a vampire, why not just play a nb vamp and play with whichever skills you want. I do agree the feeding for vamp animation would be great, but look at the general outlock in this game character play, closest you could come in this 3rd person view is maybe char leaps onto something, grappling them, biting them, but then again, maybe they should make it so the feed ability doesn't work on things that don't actually have blood. I laughed so hard when you could feed on dwem machines.

I wanted to say the justice system would add these capabilities, but I don't even know right now the proper action they should take to make it reality, a single player game like this used to be, is much easier than unleashing the same system in an mmo, t would be like each person entering a city would trigger their own city to load for the justice system, but be able to see everyone. As if everyones problems triggered, there would be severe lag I'm sure. I think first stage would be adjusting the ww, making it viable, and once the ww is actually rebuilt properly, then mingle it into the justice system to make it viable. But right now I still see a failed sub class where playing a ww I die 10X+ more often than I could just playing with my main class with its own ultimate.

CP5

@Pazrael - To the last part of your post I completely agree. The werewolf can be fun, in some places but overall you give up so much utility and survivability that outside farming trash mobs it really isn't that effective. I've made a thread about my personal opinions on the changes, and if the werewolf is brought to the level of being both enjoyable and usable then I personally would love to see justice system integration.

Roechacca

I hate necros