Justice system sugestion (Addition) - Killing Other players in PVE.

PBpsy

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you not want to risk being flagged for PvP? Don't commit a crime.

How can interacting with NPCs flag a player for pvp. This will not work and I doubt very much ZOS would be foolish enough to try it. I think it's going far enough opening up a minigame with random players due to participation in this new system, making it actual pvp would be gaming suicide.

snip

You're willfully missing the point. People will enjoy interacting with NPCs in this new system, while they may not enjoy interacting with other players in this new system. It's something I hope ZOS already understand, and if not, they soon will once the forums riot and servers start yelling at them. If this is indeed open world pvp, most of the carnage will be occurring in the forums.

You're deliberately trying to change the entire concept of the justice system, as it has existed for over 20 years in the series.

I'm sure people will enjoy being able to steal from and assassinate specific targets. It has always been an enjoyable part of the single-player games.

And just like the single-player games, players will quickly find out that they cannot walk up to a person on a crowded street and stab them without suffering some consequences. What you're asking for is a crime system devoid of risk, which is not fun for anyone.

And please, please, please stop calling this "open-world PvP". It's not even close.

Actually this would change how the justice system worked for 20 years. In all TES games there were consequences for crime but the consequence was never a changed of game mode. TES was pve with pve consequences. There should and there can be quite a bit of harsh consequences for crime without having to PVP. Being attacked in town by guards, being barred from quests , merchants, guilds, crafting station, various economic penalties are very adequate PvE consequences.

As @nerevarine1138‌ said before, one of the purposes of the MMO is having players partake on tasks that used to be handeled by NPCs.

Following your logic, there shouldn't be Guilds, Guild Stores, you shouldn't be able to trade or even use game chat. You shouldn't be able to group either since grouping was made with NPCs.

So it wouldn't change how the justice system worked, it would let players partake in it.

What I am saying that PVP should be a choice and a classic TES feature that was always a PVE should not become an exclusive forced PVP experience. There should be a option for people to flag themselves for crime system PVP for people that are into that.There should be an option for people to just deal with only PVE consequences for crime.

If most people are going for the exclusive PVE crime and you don't have enough targets that is your problem. If people do not enjoy pvp they should not be forced to do it just for your pleasure.

Let's not forget that this is also a very theme park mmo and in most cases the players do not and should not take the roles of the npcs.

Describing the Elder Scrolls series as "PvE" is disingenuous. It's always been a single-player series, which means that "PvP" wasn't actually possible.

To answer this and a few other posts: yes, an MMO means that many (not all, but many) tasks that NPCs performed in the single-player game will go to the players. And here's why.

In Skyrim (just using it as an example because it's the most recent and easiest to reference), you could be a thief and/or assassin. Or you could kill thieves and assassins. You had that choice. Breaking the law and getting caught meant having to deal with guards, who were NPCs by virtue of the fact that the game was single-player. Now, let's look at ESO. They're going to introduce a justice system, which will enable players to commit crimes. If they didn't allow players to also be guards, the system would be unfair and have no real risk or balance. Let's look at these one at a time.

Why would that system be unfair? Because in order to participate, I need to become a criminal. If I'm playing a character who has a strict moral code, that's not an option for me. Which means I miss out on an entire update's worth of content.

Why no risk? Well, we first need to stipulate that risk is what makes crime fun. Otherwise, there's no thrill to committing an in-game crime. If my only risk is that some NPC guards may try and chase me down, I'm not in any trouble. I can outrun NPCs, and if I really don't want to bother, I can just commit my crimes in a lower-level area so that I can always kill the guards that chase me. If, on the other hand, my risk is that being detected flags me to players, I no longer have the benefit of being able to always escape. Committing a crime then carries some serious risks, and I need to weigh them against the benefits before I commit to my course of action.

Crimes have consequences. That's been the case in every single Elder Scrolls game. The only way for the justice system to truly be an MMO version of what we've become used to in the single-player series is by letting players take on the roles of guards. There is no other way that is fair and balanced, nor is there a better way to ensure that the justice system continues to be a major part of the game as it grows.

First Bold.Single Player TES games were always PVE. The player was competing versus the environment. The fact that PVP was not possible in them doesn't change that.

Second Bold. No one has said that there should be no risk involved in the crime system. I have specifically gave example of possible consequences for crime that do not involve getting flagged for PVP. The risk and consequences should be there but PVP should be optional.

Third bold. If the crime system is properly designed the NPC guards should be challenging enough and the rewards for crime should be such that doing them in low level areas would be a waste of time.

Fourth bold. Just nonsense. The devs can certainly come up with a good set of consequences for the crime system that do not involve turning it into cops and robbers pvp.

babylon

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

1. They don't have to pay the fine.
2. 500g is nothing, even at low levels.
3. Most importantly, the player will then learn the value of not being seen.

It will still be funny. Poor little guy getting beat up on or charged gold, over and over till he finally gives up on the justice system and goes back to questing or just logs off.

Can you see how a truly evil person might be able to farm kicks out of this yet?

Like I said (again, for the zillionth time) assuming this will be a real pvp system, in the open world is foolish. My guess is it will be a special guard skill rather than kill skills (which could make some of us OP vs the opponents), even though that would still be useful for farming jollies.

Gilvoth

on top of all this lets keep something inmind.
if people LOVE to pvp low level people, then they are NOT going to spend all day and night waiting for a low level to steal something (which in most cases the thief WILL pay the fine) because that will be very very boring cause they will basicly get about 1 kill per day if thier lucky.

babylon

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

on top of all this lets keep something inmind.
if people LOVE to pvp low level people, then they are NOT going to spend all day and night waiting for a low level to steal something (which in most cases the thief WILL pay the fine) because that will be very very boring cause they will basicly get about 1 kill per day if thier lucky.

Probably a better way to end the night than fishing is currently.

Gilvoth

the npc guards are the ones going to be starting the decision of whos flagged and who is not flagged based on the decision of the thief.

nerevarine1138

PBpsy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you not want to risk being flagged for PvP? Don't commit a crime.

How can interacting with NPCs flag a player for pvp. This will not work and I doubt very much ZOS would be foolish enough to try it. I think it's going far enough opening up a minigame with random players due to participation in this new system, making it actual pvp would be gaming suicide.

snip

You're willfully missing the point. People will enjoy interacting with NPCs in this new system, while they may not enjoy interacting with other players in this new system. It's something I hope ZOS already understand, and if not, they soon will once the forums riot and servers start yelling at them. If this is indeed open world pvp, most of the carnage will be occurring in the forums.

You're deliberately trying to change the entire concept of the justice system, as it has existed for over 20 years in the series.

I'm sure people will enjoy being able to steal from and assassinate specific targets. It has always been an enjoyable part of the single-player games.

And just like the single-player games, players will quickly find out that they cannot walk up to a person on a crowded street and stab them without suffering some consequences. What you're asking for is a crime system devoid of risk, which is not fun for anyone.

And please, please, please stop calling this "open-world PvP". It's not even close.

Actually this would change how the justice system worked for 20 years. In all TES games there were consequences for crime but the consequence was never a changed of game mode. TES was pve with pve consequences. There should and there can be quite a bit of harsh consequences for crime without having to PVP. Being attacked in town by guards, being barred from quests , merchants, guilds, crafting station, various economic penalties are very adequate PvE consequences.

As @nerevarine1138‌ said before, one of the purposes of the MMO is having players partake on tasks that used to be handeled by NPCs.

Following your logic, there shouldn't be Guilds, Guild Stores, you shouldn't be able to trade or even use game chat. You shouldn't be able to group either since grouping was made with NPCs.

So it wouldn't change how the justice system worked, it would let players partake in it.

What I am saying that PVP should be a choice and a classic TES feature that was always a PVE should not become an exclusive forced PVP experience. There should be a option for people to flag themselves for crime system PVP for people that are into that.There should be an option for people to just deal with only PVE consequences for crime.

If most people are going for the exclusive PVE crime and you don't have enough targets that is your problem. If people do not enjoy pvp they should not be forced to do it just for your pleasure.

Let's not forget that this is also a very theme park mmo and in most cases the players do not and should not take the roles of the npcs.

Describing the Elder Scrolls series as "PvE" is disingenuous. It's always been a single-player series, which means that "PvP" wasn't actually possible.

To answer this and a few other posts: yes, an MMO means that many (not all, but many) tasks that NPCs performed in the single-player game will go to the players. And here's why.

In Skyrim (just using it as an example because it's the most recent and easiest to reference), you could be a thief and/or assassin. Or you could kill thieves and assassins. You had that choice. Breaking the law and getting caught meant having to deal with guards, who were NPCs by virtue of the fact that the game was single-player. Now, let's look at ESO. They're going to introduce a justice system, which will enable players to commit crimes. If they didn't allow players to also be guards, the system would be unfair and have no real risk or balance. Let's look at these one at a time.

Why would that system be unfair? Because in order to participate, I need to become a criminal. If I'm playing a character who has a strict moral code, that's not an option for me. Which means I miss out on an entire update's worth of content.

Why no risk? Well, we first need to stipulate that risk is what makes crime fun. Otherwise, there's no thrill to committing an in-game crime. If my only risk is that some NPC guards may try and chase me down, I'm not in any trouble. I can outrun NPCs, and if I really don't want to bother, I can just commit my crimes in a lower-level area so that I can always kill the guards that chase me. If, on the other hand, my risk is that being detected flags me to players, I no longer have the benefit of being able to always escape. Committing a crime then carries some serious risks, and I need to weigh them against the benefits before I commit to my course of action.

Crimes have consequences. That's been the case in every single Elder Scrolls game. The only way for the justice system to truly be an MMO version of what we've become used to in the single-player series is by letting players take on the roles of guards. There is no other way that is fair and balanced, nor is there a better way to ensure that the justice system continues to be a major part of the game as it grows.

First Bold.Single Player TES games were always PVE. The player was competing versus the environment. The fact that PVP was not possible in them doesn't change that.

Second Bold. No one has said that there should be no risk involved in the crime system. I have specifically gave example of possible consequences for crime that do not involve getting flagged for PVP. The risk and consequences should be there but PVP should be optional.

Third bold. If the crime system is properly designed the NPC guards should be challenging enough and the rewards for crime should be such that doing them in low level areas would be a waste of time.

Fourth bold. Just nonsense. The devs can certainly come up with a good set of consequences for the crime system that do not involve turning it into cops and robbers pvp.

Again, those aren't the right terms to use. PvE and PvP are terms coined specifically to describe content and MMOs. They have no place describing a single-player game, no matter how apt you may find them.

I'm fairly confident that there is no way to buff NPCs in a way that won't let players simply run until they're safe. But even ignoring that, you totally skipped over a major point: in your system, the only way to participate is by being a lawbreaker. That's why ZO has already committed to a guard/criminal system.

purple-magicb16_ESO

Ah I remember getting into trouble in Skyrim with this. Being attacked by an enemy (usually vamp) after getting inside castle walls. The guards rush to do battle with the intruder and I, being the upstanding citizen I am, help out, but wind up hitting one of the guards in the fray (as they have a habit of getting between me and the enemy). Suddenly I'm being attacked by both the vamp & guards and am a wanted man! This has led me to adopt a "not my problem" attitude and keep walking. Sincerely hope this doesn't happen here.

yelloweyedemon

magnusnet wrote: »

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

Heh.. They just nerfed veteran content because of the complains of it being too hard.

There are more chances of me developing wings and start flying around, than see them add "friendly fire" option in PvE.

Not that i wouldn't support it (old L2 ftw), but yeah.. not going to ever happen...

L2 . Well even there you eventually had some idiots that would hunt low level players but you would usually see a high level player poping into town asking where the guy is to go smash his skull and then you could continue playing as if nothing had hapened ^^. I don't thin ZOS will ever implement it in low level areas but I hope that maybe in craglorn or in the next areas they introduce, they allow pvp inside PVE.

If people don't want to fear for their lives they just avoid the area.

I don't think they will ever create a new zone that will allow it, and to be honest I would not want them to. It will hurt Cyrodiil population way too bad. Far too many people are already seeking options to get out of it (like PvP dungs, arenas etc)

What they could do and it could work on paper, is to allow players to toggle on or off the justice system, which would also enable friendly fire at a cost (not being accepted in any city/village or npc function unless you pay a considerable price or go to jail).

Moonscythe

If it happened I would drop my subscription but not before I went on a rampage shooting every player and horse that ran me down on the stairs or stopped on top of me at a crafting station.

Laura

Curragraigue wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

they said there will be a little pvp. like if you get caught stealing or killing npcs other players can attack you but its completely optional

I haven't seen them confirm that it is optional. They said that you could join the guards to fight crime so that and the decision to steal may provide an opt in but I haven't seen this confirmed anywhere.

Have you got a source @Laura because I would like more info on that.

You opt in by killing npcs =p optional

Hamfast

I have an idea for the justice system, Guards will scale to the criminal they are attacking, so even a VR12 in a level 1-10 area would be in for a hell of a fight... Guards spawn other Guards, so you may only start fighting with 1 guard, but soon after the fight starts you will be fighting, 2, 3, 5 or more guards, all as tough as you or a tad bit more (to make it interesting).

Players must opt in to the justice system, if you don't opt in, nothing changes... if you opt in and get caught you get flagged and chased by the guards... if they catch you you can choose to pay a fine based on your level, but you are also marked so that guards in the area will keep an eye on you as a known offender... if you choose not to pay you can run away, but the guards will chase you a long way and sprint the whole time... some guards may be casters (Range DPS), Archers, or other types with some ability's that can, if you have bad luck, snare/stop you... at which time you get to fight any guards that are near enough to agro on you. If you can beat the guards, you are still marked, but you get away... if the guards beat you down you are again marked and tossed in jail (unable to play that character for X minutes or hours), repeat offenders are executed, the criminal is deleted, everything on them is deleted, even the name is freed up and you are given an empty character slot to make a new character with... you hard core folks should love this idea, be hard core, start over from scratch.

Tamanous

There is SOOOOO much that can be done with this system. I fully understand that ZOS will likely continue to add features to it and it will launch with minimal features to begin with. Hopefully it can be extended to Cyradiil and especially the housing system once added in the far future.

zhevon

There's so much that can be fubar'd with a justice system.

Here's an example - of course we don't know how the justice system will work and whether it will work as intended. So you are branded an outlaw and can be attacked. Presumably you remain branded an outlaw so you decide to troll legit PVE players and get in their way and get hit with splash damage or running in front of them. Of course now PVP is engaged and you kill an ordinary PVE player. Ordinary PvE players do not like this. I suspect the justice system is going to be a disaster.

Tamanous

It seems the justice system isn't designed to allow open access to attacking players. It is linked to the associated guild quest system likely and normally guards would retaliate, not players. ZOS mentioned players can become guards though which adds to the pvp system. It will not be true open world pvp but instead very limited and bound to active particiption. This should limit greatly the chances for abuse.

Surinen

GreySix wrote: »

Again, unless you choose for your player to be a criminal or guard, you wouldn't be affected.

At all.

But if you do become a criminal, and you're a stupid one...

@xxxx[{::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

there are no smart criminals. to raise a hand against the Order is to condemn oneself.

it is only natural that we would be able to bring an ire of the justice and execute protocols of the sacred purge rite.

Rhoric

How about No. PvP stays where it is. Keep it out of the PvE areas.

TehMagnus

Imo arena fight will be done inside imperial city ^^

YozN

magnusnet wrote: »

I remember when I was young and played MU Online, one had the possibility to attack other players. If you killed too many, you became hunted for a period of time (it took a lot of time to log out and the timer would stop untill you reconected again).
While being an Outlaw, any other player/group of players could kill you without penalties and get a special Title by doing so.

.

That's not entirely true though. MU Online has been running on PVP and PVE channels for years. Even though they are using the same maps and you can switch between them at any moment, you can not be killed or kill an outlaw in PvE channels. One of the main reasons lower/ weaker players would ever take the risk going into a PVP channel is because they cant find a spot to lvl/farm or they are been KS by higher lvl groups. Without that, PvP channels are pretty much empty of PvE players. Also, MU has relatively much smaller maps which makes hunting down a killer actually possible.

But yeah an open PVP can be very frustrating even with lvl restrictions. Say what can other players do if a group of stronger players team up at certain point and killing everyone else? That happened in MU as well and everyone just got stuck at the gate or cant leave the safe zone.

ps: MU has the coolest armor/wing upgrade cosmetic effects, especially for Outlaws. many would PK just for staying in that look

Knootewoot

Instead of killing other players why not something like this...

A player who steals stuff and kills NPC's get a bounty when seen doing it. If the bountyget above 5000g they get a death sentence. Then other players can kill him if they take the bounty of a bounty board. The one with a bounty can, of course, also kill the one who took the bounty.

That way you don't have PvP in friendly zones, but you can still have a criminal system where people can kill eachother (much like the bounty SWG had later on)

Katniss_Everlark

magnusnet wrote: »

Katniss_Everlark wrote: »

No just no. I didn't really start pvping in any of my previous mmos because I didn't like it. In WoW I was stuck on a pvp server & I'd get killed while questing by players of my lvl to the highest lvl possible. In Swtor I avoided the pvp areas on my pve server at all costs.

You'd be killing players of your own faction which I find stupid. If it was something like WoW or Swtor where you could actually be in the same area as the other factions that's one thing. Seeing how that isn't possible in the pve areas it'd be stupid to be killing other AD, EP, DC players in your own faction.

Cyrodiil is the perfect amount of pvp. It's an area all it's own & you get to kill players there!! So why would you bring that to the pve area when people are just trying to quest & get gold or mats for crafting. Pvp should stay in Cyrodiil not in any pve zones.

You clearly haven't read anything that has been said here.

Yes I did. You want to kill players in pve areas. That's called pvp. There may have been some form of this in a single player game but that was single player. It's different in an mmo you just don't care to see that.

Svann

First, got a cite from zos for that criminal/guard system?

Second, how do you handle casuals walking by healing someone? Does the casual get pvp flagged? If so does it give you some warning before it flags you so you can avoid it? Or does the heal just not land? These are the problems that have come up in other games where pvp flagging occurs. On top of that there always seems to be bugs creep in to where people get flagged pvp by accident or by mischief.

indytims_ESO

No. Just.... No.

PVP or "PKing" should only be consentual. EVE does this where you have "Safe zones" that aren't -really- safe, and it's incredibly Lame.

There is a -huge- percentage of players in this game who want nothing to do with PVP. They should have their safe areas, just as PVPers should have their areas to do their thing.

Stop trying to push PVP crap into PVE areas. It's lame. Silly. And really, really unnecessary.

Aureli

When it was first announced that Veteran content would take place in the other alliances zones this is what I thought would happen. I thought it would mean there would be a zone for each alliance that was veteran, and it would be open pvp between players of opposing alliances.

If they added that in I would not be opposed to it. I loved the idea of "invading" the other alliances with quests to sabotage their war efforts, and other pve content, but always with the risk that a player or group from another alliance could come across you and ruin your day.

indytims_ESO wrote: »

No. Just.... No.

PVP or "PKing" should only be consentual. EVE does this where you have "Safe zones" that aren't -really- safe, and it's incredibly Lame.

There is a -huge- percentage of players in this game who want nothing to do with PVP. They should have their safe areas, just as PVPers should have their areas to do their thing.

Stop trying to push PVP crap into PVE areas. It's lame. Silly. And really, really unnecessary.

Then don't partake of it. There'd be nothing forcing you to participate, but if you then you'd be informed of the terms of participation. We don't even know how the system will be implemented yet anyways, but a lot of great suggestions have been made throughout this thread.

nerevarine1138

adamrussell52_ESO wrote: »

First, got a cite from zos for that criminal/guard system?

Second, how do you handle casuals walking by healing someone? Does the casual get pvp flagged? If so does it give you some warning before it flags you so you can avoid it? Or does the heal just not land? These are the problems that have come up in other games where pvp flagging occurs. On top of that there always seems to be bugs creep in to where people get flagged pvp by accident or by mischief.

Here's the citation: http://elderscrollsotr.mymiddleearth.com/2014/06/26/justice-system-in-elder-scrolls-online-update/

Important: I'd just read the quotation from Paul Sage, because the paragraph before contains a lot of speculation. Especially the bit about stealing from players. No one at ZO has ever said that you'll be stealing from players, and you'll notice that Sage only mentions crimes committed against NPCs. He only mentions player interaction in the context of the guard/criminal fight.

Svann

Firefox can't find the server at elderscrollsotr.mymiddleearth.com

Guess the site is down?

GnatB

So, you want UO style open world PvP.

No thanks, unless it's on a separate (and inevitably underpopulated) PvP server.

GnatB

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And actions should have consequences.

Good point. Permadeath for criminals killed in PvP.

GnatB

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

A good MMO requires both PvP and PvE content.

No, no they don't. They don't require *any* PvP content, particularly if they are RPG MMO's. There is no such thing as good PvP in an RPG. PvP is only good when it's based on player skill. RPG combat, based on the definition of RPG, is based on character abilities. As such, PVP in an RPG is doomed from the get go. RPG PvP is PvP for those that don't have the skills for pure skill based PvP.

Cody

I would not mind this. I think it would actually be a small improvement to PvP, as you would be able to fight ppl your lvl, instead of going to cyrodill and fighting people 15 times your lvl. now there should be limitations. we, like you said, cant have VR12s griefing in low level zones:( that is a BIG NO NO. this would also maybe even make you feel more like a criminal when you commit a crime. yeah NPC guards can pursue you, and can be threatening, but actual PLAYERS hunting you down, would be fun as hell. just my two cents.

TehMagnus

PVE content is so easy now, there wouldn't be a downside to being hunted by only guards or NPC. Any high level player would just destroy them and render the "Justice" system useless for high level and only penalizing for low level.