Justice system sugestion (Addition) - Killing Other players in PVE.

Bahz

Yes please add PK and allow us to go into other factions for pvp

Spottswoode

Anastasia wrote: »

Yes, yes that is true. It is working as the original designers INTENDED. No or with consequences-paper-tiger builds in TESO. Everyone has to have heal utility either at least for themselves or to help others. Even WITH two healers in some of the endgame content you better be able to take care of yourself for a second or two ^-^.

As at tank or dps, having to dedicate one or two of ten slots in your quickbar for self healing and off healing would not be such a bad thing. Having to use three or four out of ten for survival means is just ridiculous. I'm not talking about buffs and damage abilities with HoTs either. Not to mention you have to use a non-dps weapon and give spaces for that weapon (and level it's sub par healing abilities) for the good stuff if you aren't a temp.
There's also a huge difference between healing at low and mid levels to the overwhelming power you get at level 50. Mid level dungeons are a massive pain because of the healing mechanics in this game.

KariTR

Gasgiant wrote: »

I have done both PvP and PvE in a number of different MMOs. The simple fact is that as stated before, a good number of PvE players are horrid at PvP, and others just don't want to engage in it. The simple fact of the matter is that this is a game. People play it to have fun, so why introduce game play that forces a person into a situation that they don't find entertaining? There can be a robust justice system that has numerous PvE penalties for crime, and doesn't involve making a player that doesn't want to, fight another player. There has also been mention that without PvP, there would be little or nothing for player guards to do, that too can be handled with NPC criminals that try and commit crimes just like they had in Skyrim, or randomly generated bandit camps in some of the less used parts of the map that spring up bounties that only "guards" can claim. And for those that want the extra challenge, then let them flag for it them selves. Then once they reach the appropriate bounty amount, the gloves are off and they can be hunted down by other players.

It just makes for bad PvP when you make players who never PvP engage in it just for the sake of content experience. There is nothing but frustration for them, no challenge in it for those that do it often, and thus no fun all around. The only people that enjoy that kind of one sided fight are either trolls and/or the lowest common denominator of player I can imagine.

Reading this thread and facepalming at 'snowball fight' suggestions, I just wanted to compliment you on being the only opponent who has presented clear and reasonably why they would not like to see the type of justice system we think may be implemented.

Mind, your last paragraph lets you down. No one is being forced into anything.

A key issue here, which is being overlooked by opponents, is not whether you are good at PvP (for the record, I enjoy PvP despite not being terribly good at it), but whether your thieving skills are up to par. If they are, then you will never have to worry about being caught. If they aren't, then do not steal.

The other important factor in a role playing game environment is, when is it OK to steal? At the moment our characters never have to consider this important question and so we see people running around vaults and manors opening every bag, dresser and trunk they come across. Is this truly any less annoying than the sorcs and their pets or the dudes showing off their AoE skills?

Personally, I find it more annoying and hopefully it is one antisocial habit that will be broken when Justice finally comes to ESO.

Tabbycat

Ugh no we don't need player killers outside of Cyrodiil.

Tannakaobi

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

A lot of things could be done and be fun. I think it could be entertaining to have such a system for maybe VR ranks.

For every person who finds this 'entertaining' there will be five who leave. I don't think ESO is in a position to gamble even further with what customers it has.

YOu don't know that.

You're right, we don't know that. I'm thinking the number will be more like 10 will leave for every 1 who enjoys it.

A good way to sift out the trash!

babylon wrote: »

Why do people think babylon is a guy's name?

Rather odd, I think of it as the name of a city that stands for 'Gateway of the God' strange I know.... I'm not sure why I would get an idea like that.

crislevin

grimjim398 wrote: »

We do know this much about how the flagging works. You can only participate in the justice system as a player if you join the Guards or commit a crime.

If you can only fight other players as a guard or a criminal, that means that random player heals won't have any effect on the combatants. So there won't be any accidental flagging of players through heals.

ZOS has said very clearly that this will bring PVP that is limited to Guards and criminals to all areas of the game. This means PVP, not some special new skill that does not actually kill.

Nobody who is not a Guard or a criminal will be involved directly. Non-paricipants will be witnesses to this activity.

ZOS is calling this Active World PVP.

It's a stupid move. Who want his or her town in battle mode? Even as witness only?

There will be guard guilds and criminal guilds pvp in Daggerfall, Shornhelm, Mournhold, Riften, Eldenroot, Rawl'Kha.

It's ridiculous, it's ugly, it's ***, I don't want to watch it.

ZOS is making a huge mistake in giving in to a small portion of loud complainers, and it's stupid.

Tannakaobi

crislevin wrote: »

grimjim398 wrote: »

We do know this much about how the flagging works. You can only participate in the justice system as a player if you join the Guards or commit a crime.

If you can only fight other players as a guard or a criminal, that means that random player heals won't have any effect on the combatants. So there won't be any accidental flagging of players through heals.

ZOS has said very clearly that this will bring PVP that is limited to Guards and criminals to all areas of the game. This means PVP, not some special new skill that does not actually kill.

Nobody who is not a Guard or a criminal will be involved directly. Non-paricipants will be witnesses to this activity.

ZOS is calling this Active World PVP.

It's a stupid move. Who want his or her town in battle mode? Even as witness only?

There will be guard guilds and criminal guilds pvp in Daggerfall, Shornhelm, Mournhold, Riften, Eldenroot, Rawl'Kha.

It's ridiculous, it's ugly, it's ***, I don't want to watch it.

ZOS is making a huge mistake in giving in to a small portion of loud complainers, and it's stupid.

It's far more ridiculous to not have it. It is ugly, but then people are ugly, take a look at the world. This is a fantasy 'combat' game.

If you are looking for beauty over realism then I suggest you play http://www.legendsofequestria.com/

And they are not 'giving in to a small portion of loud complainers', they are taking the game in the direction they always intended and want.

Sleep

This is not a Free PvP game, don't let PvP happen out of Cyrodiil and PvP arena.

Tannakaobi

Sleep wrote: »

This is not a Free PvP game, don't let PvP happen out of Cyrodiil and PvP arena.

Like I said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szOdrsfn04s

Falmer

Sure, but with one caveat.

The innocent person who gets killed by a player has the option to ban that persons account for one month when they are caught.

Gankers want "realism" then there should certainly be "REAL" consequences for their stupidity.

Tannakaobi

Gankers are not PVP players!

PVP is about challenge and unpredictable combat. Gankers are just griefers that give PVP players a bad name because they use PVP tools.

You could say the same about PVE players that like to ninja all the loot. Is PVE bad because of it?

Nox_Aeterna

Spottswoode wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

cracker81 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

No smart player is so stupid and casts a spell on a PVP enabled player if he doesn't want to pvp.

Err, healing spells and the "smart healing" where you have no control over who gets targeted.

You have no control over your toon?

You clearly don't understand how healing works in this game.

QFT.
Healing is a massive pain in this game even with aoe heals. You can't directly heal dying players unless you isolate them. Which can end with you, the healer, likely being targeted. You are also automatically targeted by the ai for being a healer, (I somehow aggroed a boss without moving or acting) and if the healer dies during a group effort...well you can probably guess the end of that. Having a single healer basically predestines you for party wipe. Which means everybody in raid groups has to use some form of healing in order to get by.

hehe i will second this.

Being a templar i could say that , in my experience in this game , it has to worst healing system i have ever had to deal with in a MMO.

I lost count of the number of times i went down because it decided to heal some random player instead of me.

grimjim398

crislevin wrote: »

It's a stupid move. Who want his or her town in battle mode? Even as witness only?

There will be guard guilds and criminal guilds pvp in Daggerfall, Shornhelm, Mournhold, Riften, Eldenroot, Rawl'Kha.

It's ridiculous, it's ugly, it's ***, I don't want to watch it.

ZOS is making a huge mistake in giving in to a small portion of loud complainers, and it's stupid.

My initial reaction was the same. But on reflection I realized that this system is reasonable and that it will make the cities feel more lively. And the fact is that the devs can't come up with enough content to keep the game fresh for the long haul. We run through the new content much faster than they can design it. At least some of the content has to come from the players, and this is one way for that to happen.

Also, it is silly for me to say that my wishes should overrule the vision of the developers; people want this system and it's not going to hurt the way I want to play. Even if the majority of players did not want this, and I don't think that's true, it's silly for the majority to act like tyrants and forbid a system that will likely be no more than an inconvenience to PVE players.

I played EVE Online for 5 years and so I know how ugly a game can get when PVP takes too large a role in the game. I do NOT think that's what's going to happen here.

nerevarine1138

crislevin wrote: »

grimjim398 wrote: »

We do know this much about how the flagging works. You can only participate in the justice system as a player if you join the Guards or commit a crime.

If you can only fight other players as a guard or a criminal, that means that random player heals won't have any effect on the combatants. So there won't be any accidental flagging of players through heals.

ZOS has said very clearly that this will bring PVP that is limited to Guards and criminals to all areas of the game. This means PVP, not some special new skill that does not actually kill.

Nobody who is not a Guard or a criminal will be involved directly. Non-paricipants will be witnesses to this activity.

ZOS is calling this Active World PVP.

It's a stupid move. Who want his or her town in battle mode? Even as witness only?

There will be guard guilds and criminal guilds pvp in Daggerfall, Shornhelm, Mournhold, Riften, Eldenroot, Rawl'Kha.

It's ridiculous, it's ugly, it's ***, I don't want to watch it.

ZOS is making a huge mistake in giving in to a small portion of loud complainers, and it's stupid.

A "small portion of loud complainers"? That would be the people who led to the tuning-down of VR content.

The justice system, on the other hand, has been a staple of the Elder Scrolls series for over two decades, and I'd wager that the vast majority of players have been salivating at the very prospect of seeing it go online.

I'm sorry that the idea of potential bloodshed in town offends you, but not wanting to witness the system is just plain silly. You don't have to look.

AlexDougherty

magnusnet wrote: »

So, an upcoming patch will include a justice system, being able to kill NPCs, the possibility of going to jail, being hunted by guards, etc etc.

What about other players?

I remember when I was young and played MU Online, one had the possibility to attack other players. If you killed too many, you became hunted for a period of time (it took a lot of time to log out and the timer would stop untill you reconected again).
While being an Outlaw, any other player/group of players could kill you without penalties and get a special Title by doing so.

Ofc there should be limitations so that a VR12 doesn't go to a level 1-10 area & burns it to the ground, there should also be some incentive to become an outlaw and to killing outlaws (other than the title), like get a copy of a piece of gear the person has (with limitations to avoid duplicating rare dropables) or maybe a special "outlaw" and "justiciar" skill line.

A lot of things could be done and be fun. I think it could be entertaining to have such a system for maybe VR ranks.

Basically you want open world PVP, or a variation upon it.

Well I don't, and something like this would make me quit.
If I wanted to play a game with open-world PVP I would have bought one, I didn't, and I still don't want it.

billp_ESO

The minute I am forced to PvP whether I want to or not, is the minute I quit.

If players want to self-flag, ok. There should be battlegrounds based on level, so if you want to PvP, you can find a fair fight.

But absolutely no open-world non-consensual PvP.

eliisra

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Gankers are not PVP players!

PVP is about challenge and unpredictable combat. Gankers are just griefers that give PVP players a bad name because they use PVP tools.

You could say the same about PVE players that like to ninja all the loot. Is PVE bad because of it?

Most "gankers" would disagree. Than they would call everyone else zergling or easymoder. Because jumping mounted people from sneak takes so much skill apparently.

It's a bit pointless to debate what a real PvP players is, everyone has arguments why their own playstyle makes them superior or more honourable than everyone else.

Topic: Another issue is how NPC's will be killable by players with this new feature. I sometimes press the wrong hotkey. Even more often I use the wrong skill because my weapon swap is unresponsive. What if I accidentally use AoE on several NPC's and they die? Than I'm a wanted a criminal unless I pay a truckload of coins.

I love PvP, but imagine that happening to a new player that only wants to PvE.

They absolutely must add settings for these thing. Forced PvP, for what ever reason, is something that makes people raqequit games.

Option to unflagg for PvP is necessary, so your skills wont effect NPC's or criminal players. It's not hard to do, it exists in multiple online games.

But than again, they have yet to add settings for smart healing

nerevarine1138

eliisra wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Gankers are not PVP players!

PVP is about challenge and unpredictable combat. Gankers are just griefers that give PVP players a bad name because they use PVP tools.

You could say the same about PVE players that like to ninja all the loot. Is PVE bad because of it?

Most "gankers" would disagree. Than they would call everyone else zergling or easymoder. Because jumping mounted people from sneak takes so much skill apparently.

It's a bit pointless to debate what a real PvP players is, everyone has arguments why their own playstyle makes them superior or more honourable than everyone else.

Topic: Another issue is how NPC's will be killable by players with this new feature. I sometimes press the wrong hotkey. Even more often I use the wrong skill because my weapon swap is unresponsive. What if I accidentally use AoE on several NPC's and they die? Than I'm a wanted a criminal unless I pay a truckload of coins.

I love PvP, but imagine that happening to a new player that only wants to PvE.

They absolutely must add settings for these thing. Forced PvP, for what ever reason, is something that makes people raqequit games.

Option to unflagg for PvP is necessary, so your skills wont effect NPC's or criminal players. It's not hard to do, it exists in multiple online games.

But than again, they have yet to add settings for smart healing

Attacking someone on a mount isn't ganking them. And while a fully decked-out VR12 can kill a lower-level player in Cyrodiil quite easily, it isn't ganking either. Cyrodiil scales players' attributes up, so ganking isn't truly possible. That said, a true "gank" in MMO terminology is when a high-to-max level character deliberately targets low-level characters in order to have no challenge when killing them.

On topic: I guess you'll have to be more careful with your AoE abilities. There's no reason for you to be using them in town in the first place, and if your fingers are really that slippery, just re-bind your ultimate key. That's the only key I can envision someone actually hitting by mistake under the default keybinds.

KariTR

Falmer wrote: »

Sure, but with one caveat.

The innocent person who gets killed by a player has the option to ban that persons account for one month when they are caught.

Gankers want "realism" then there should certainly be "REAL" consequences for their stupidity.

If you're innocent you can't be harmed.

That's your 'realism' sorted, OK?

crislevin

You guys keep whipping, I will just sit here and see this system fails upon launch.

Guards and Criminal guilds are spamming zone chat for recruit right now, to "build up base". You just wait to witness the lawlessness of Tamriel when ZoS unleash the beast.

nerevarine1138

crislevin wrote: »

You guys keep whipping, I will just sit here and see this system fails upon launch.

Guards and Criminal guilds are spamming zone chat for recruit right now, to "build up base". You just wait to witness the lawlessness of Tamriel when ZoS unleash the beast.

Oh no! Not lawlessness!

Seriously, have you ever played an Elder Scrolls game before? I ask, because you clearly aren't familiar with the system.

crislevin

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

You guys keep whipping, I will just sit here and see this system fails upon launch.

Guards and Criminal guilds are spamming zone chat for recruit right now, to "build up base". You just wait to witness the lawlessness of Tamriel when ZoS unleash the beast.

Oh no! Not lawlessness!

Seriously, have you ever played an Elder Scrolls game before? I ask, because you clearly aren't familiar with the system.

oh, tell me which TES game had player killing player before, I am all ears.

nerevarine1138

crislevin wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

You guys keep whipping, I will just sit here and see this system fails upon launch.

Guards and Criminal guilds are spamming zone chat for recruit right now, to "build up base". You just wait to witness the lawlessness of Tamriel when ZoS unleash the beast.

Oh no! Not lawlessness!

Seriously, have you ever played an Elder Scrolls game before? I ask, because you clearly aren't familiar with the system.

oh, tell me which TES game had player killing player before, I am all ears.

Since there hasn't been a multiplayer feature in any Elder Scrolls game until now, that's a disingenuous comparison. You might as well complain that Diablo 3 used 3D animation because none of the prior games had.

This is a multiplayer game. It is also an Elder Scrolls game. It needs a justice system, and it would make no sense to not allow players to choose which side of the system they were on. Otherwise, law-abiding players get cut off from an entire update's worth of content.

babylon

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Otherwise, law-abiding players get cut off from an entire update's worth of content.

Law abiding players in the single player TES games also were cut off from the content. If you didn't join TG or DB, you didn't do the quests and that was that.

crislevin

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

You guys keep whipping, I will just sit here and see this system fails upon launch.

Guards and Criminal guilds are spamming zone chat for recruit right now, to "build up base". You just wait to witness the lawlessness of Tamriel when ZoS unleash the beast.

Oh no! Not lawlessness!

Seriously, have you ever played an Elder Scrolls game before? I ask, because you clearly aren't familiar with the system.

oh, tell me which TES game had player killing player before, I am all ears.

Since there hasn't been a multiplayer feature in any Elder Scrolls game until now, that's a disingenuous comparison. You might as well complain that Diablo 3 used 3D animation because none of the prior games had.

This is a multiplayer game. It is also an Elder Scrolls game. It needs a justice system, and it would make no sense to not allow players to choose which side of the system they were on. Otherwise, law-abiding players get cut off from an entire update's worth of content.

I didn't compare them, you demanded it, You first claim this active PvP is TES tradition, now you claim you can't compare them.

What is the problem? Did you not read OP's title? "Players killing Players", try re-read that again.

sethman75

Syntse wrote: »

Cyrodiil is for PvP.

PvP should not happen in PvE zones except if somewhere in the future they add some kind of Arena there.

QFT

PvP should not be anywhere near PvE only players that do not want to be involved

nerevarine1138

crislevin wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

You guys keep whipping, I will just sit here and see this system fails upon launch.

Guards and Criminal guilds are spamming zone chat for recruit right now, to "build up base". You just wait to witness the lawlessness of Tamriel when ZoS unleash the beast.

Oh no! Not lawlessness!

Seriously, have you ever played an Elder Scrolls game before? I ask, because you clearly aren't familiar with the system.

oh, tell me which TES game had player killing player before, I am all ears.

Since there hasn't been a multiplayer feature in any Elder Scrolls game until now, that's a disingenuous comparison. You might as well complain that Diablo 3 used 3D animation because none of the prior games had.

This is a multiplayer game. It is also an Elder Scrolls game. It needs a justice system, and it would make no sense to not allow players to choose which side of the system they were on. Otherwise, law-abiding players get cut off from an entire update's worth of content.

I didn't compare them, you demanded it, You first claim this active PvP is TES tradition, now you claim you can't compare them.

What is the problem?

Please feel free to quote me directly if you think I said that PvP is an Elder Scrolls tradition.

A justice system is an Elder Scrolls tradition. It has been in every single Elder Scrolls game. Prior to this game, those have all been single-player experiences. This, however (and I know this is hard to grasp), is a multiplayer game. There are multiple players in the game. All at once. Which has never happened in an Elder Scrolls game before. As a result (and I can't believe I've had to explain this twice now), some mechanics have to be adjusted. Functions that used to be exclusively filled by NPCs can now be filled by players. That's a consequence of moving the game to an online platform.

Expecting any version of the justice system in a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game to not involve players on both sides is just naive.

babylon

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Expecting any version of the justice system in a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game to not involve players on both sides is just naive.

It wouldn't be hard to envisage a system where players vs NPCs only on both sides were involved in a justice system - bad players get to kill and rob NPC merchants and get nabbed by NPC guards, and good players get to protect NPC merchants and bystanders from NPC bandits and NPC murderers running amuck in the city.

Players on both sides would be involved, just not vs each other.

Just sayin'.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

/sigh

Anyway, open world pvp is coming OP, it will just be opt in.

Tannakaobi

eliisra wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Gankers are not PVP players!

PVP is about challenge and unpredictable combat. Gankers are just griefers that give PVP players a bad name because they use PVP tools.

You could say the same about PVE players that like to ninja all the loot. Is PVE bad because of it?

Most "gankers" would disagree. Than they would call everyone else zergling or easymoder. Because jumping mounted people from sneak takes so much skill apparently.

Most gankers would be wrong. Or we just don't share the same opinion on what ganking is. Ganking in my mind is when a player attacks another player when there is no chance of loosing. i.e a much higher level or 10 v 1

It's a bit pointless to debate what a real PvP players is, everyone has arguments why their own playstyle makes them superior or more honourable than everyone else.

Not really, PVP is player verses player in an even fight. Or at least an even starting point.

Topic: Another issue is how NPC's will be killable by players with this new feature. I sometimes press the wrong hotkey. Even more often I use the wrong skill because my weapon swap is unresponsive. What if I accidentally use AoE on several NPC's and they die? Than I'm a wanted a criminal unless I pay a truckload of coins.

It's a pointless point until we know more. Maybe your right, maybe you are wrong. Who knows?

I love PvP, but imagine that happening to a new player that only wants to PvE.

They absolutely must add settings for these thing. Forced PvP, for what ever reason, is something that makes people raqequit games.

Option to unflagg for PvP is necessary, so your skills wont effect NPC's or criminal players. It's not hard to do, it exists in multiple online games.

But than again, they have yet to add settings for smart healing

I agree with these points. PVP should never be forced on a player in a good MMO. But in the same vain, PVP should never be taken away from other players. That is one of the many reasons why so many MMO's fail. It's a hard balance to get right.

Here is the thing though. Most PVP players only want PVP for themselves. They don't want to gank or grief players. They just want to enjoy a feature that is as popular as any other.

PVE players don't want PVP because... er.... they don't like to look at it...

crislevin wrote: »

It's a stupid move. Who want his or her town in battle mode? Even as witness only?

There will be guard guilds and criminal guilds pvp in Daggerfall, Shornhelm, Mournhold, Riften, Eldenroot, Rawl'Kha.

It's ridiculous, it's ugly, it's ***, I don't want to watch it.

ZOS is making a huge mistake in giving in to a small portion of loud complainers, and it's stupid.

Just for an example.

Or is it just because they don't want people to have something they don't. Or in some cases, actually quite a lot they don't want the devs to spend time on it.

but yet the same people seem to think that it's the PVP players that are griefing or selfish.