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Justice system sugestion (Addition) - Killing Other players in PVE.
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »A good MMO requires both PvP and PvE content.
No, no they don't. They don't require *any* PvP content, particularly if they are RPG MMO's. There is no such thing as good PvP in an RPG. PvP is only good when it's based on player skill. RPG combat, based on the definition of RPG, is based on character abilities. As such, PVP in an RPG is doomed from the get go. RPG PvP is PvP for those that don't have the skills for pure skill based PvP.
If you want to play RPG games, then don't play an MMO where there is "Player interaction". When you make players play together they usually want to end up beating each other.
So everything you say is true, for an RPG, not an MMORPG, I think you're in the wrong game m8
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭adamrussell52_ESO wrote: »Firefox can't find the server at elderscrollsotr.mymiddleearth.com
Guess the site is down?
Might be your connection; works fine for me. Here's the relevant quotation from Paul Sage:
We’re looking at adding in the Justice system which is where players can steal from NPCs and the NPCs will react to that, I can kill NPCs and NPCs will react to that. The coolest thing I think about that system is because it’s online we can allow players to not just steal and kill, but they can also become guards and act in justice. So you’ll have a little bit of PvP in the real world in the Justice system.----
Murray?4 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There's so much that can be fubar'd with a justice system.
Here's an example - of course we don't know how the justice system will work and whether it will work as intended. So you are branded an outlaw and can be attacked. Presumably you remain branded an outlaw so you decide to troll legit PVE players and get in their way and get hit with splash damage or running in front of them. Of course now PVP is engaged and you kill an ordinary PVE player. Ordinary PvE players do not like this. I suspect the justice system is going to be a disaster.
The same was said about WOW and it never stood any ground. No smart player is so stupid and casts a spell on a PVP enabled player if he doesn't want to pvp.4 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »A good MMO requires both PvP and PvE content.
No, no they don't. They don't require *any* PvP content, particularly if they are RPG MMO's. There is no such thing as good PvP in an RPG. PvP is only good when it's based on player skill. RPG combat, based on the definition of RPG, is based on character abilities. As such, PVP in an RPG is doomed from the get go. RPG PvP is PvP for those that don't have the skills for pure skill based PvP.
If you want to play RPG games, then don't play an MMO where there is "Player interaction". When you make players play together they usually want to end up beating each other.
You make a valid point. Even in regard to PvE, the main argument I face against allowing cooperative play in currently forced-solo dungeons is, "It wouldn't be fair!"
Well, unless you are choosing to make PvE a competition, fairness has nothing to do with it.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"0 -
Svann✭✭✭There's so much that can be fubar'd with a justice system.
Here's an example - of course we don't know how the justice system will work and whether it will work as intended. So you are branded an outlaw and can be attacked. Presumably you remain branded an outlaw so you decide to troll legit PVE players and get in their way and get hit with splash damage or running in front of them. Of course now PVP is engaged and you kill an ordinary PVE player. Ordinary PvE players do not like this. I suspect the justice system is going to be a disaster.
The same was said about WOW and it never stood any ground. No smart player is so stupid and casts a spell on a PVP enabled player if he doesn't want to pvp.
The solution is not auto-flag from healing pvp flagged players, but just make it so the heal does not land at all. If you do it the first way there are tricks to flag up just before the heal lands.
Also, wow had constant headaches in overland raids with one idiot flagging up and then all the healers getting accidentally flagged. Dont do it that way.Edited by Svann on July 12, 2014 2:05PM1 -
Soloeus✭✭✭✭✭
✭So, an upcoming patch will include a justice system, being able to kill NPCs, the possibility of going to jail, being hunted by guards, etc etc.
What about other players?
I remember when I was young and played MU Online, one had the possibility to attack other players. If you killed too many, you became hunted for a period of time (it took a lot of time to log out and the timer would stop untill you reconected again).
While being an Outlaw, any other player/group of players could kill you without penalties and get a special Title by doing so.
Ofc there should be limitations so that a VR12 doesn't go to a level 1-10 area & burns it to the ground, there should also be some incentive to become an outlaw and to killing outlaws (other than the title), like get a copy of a piece of gear the person has (with limitations to avoid duplicating rare dropables) or maybe a special "outlaw" and "justiciar" skill line.
A lot of things could be done and be fun. I think it could be entertaining to have such a system for maybe VR ranks.
This game has PVP in Cyrodil. We don't need it in PVE lands or vet lands.
Within; Without.5 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭adamrussell52_ESO wrote: »There's so much that can be fubar'd with a justice system.
Here's an example - of course we don't know how the justice system will work and whether it will work as intended. So you are branded an outlaw and can be attacked. Presumably you remain branded an outlaw so you decide to troll legit PVE players and get in their way and get hit with splash damage or running in front of them. Of course now PVP is engaged and you kill an ordinary PVE player. Ordinary PvE players do not like this. I suspect the justice system is going to be a disaster.
The same was said about WOW and it never stood any ground. No smart player is so stupid and casts a spell on a PVP enabled player if he doesn't want to pvp.
The solution is not auto-flag from healing pvp flagged players, but just make it so the heal does not land at all. If you do it the first way there are tricks to flag up just before the heal lands.
Also, wow had constant headaches in overland raids with one idiot flagging up and then all the healers getting accidentally flagged. Dont do it that way.
Yes but this is ZOS. I'm not sure they have such control over their game code to make this happen right
I remember RIFT screwed this up for many months, and SWTOR also had troubles getting this flagging right as well. ESO might be even messier, if our experiences with their recent patches on our skills can indicate how much understanding they have about tweaking existing coding.Edited by babylon on July 12, 2014 6:50PM0 -
Tamanous✭✭✭✭✭What game are you playing people? Surely it isn't ESO with all these silly suggestions. How can you pvp YOUR OWN FACTION!? We can't even see the other factions in the game world outside of Cyradiil!
I said this earlier (seeing how people can't be bothered to actually read all posts in a forum) that the devs have said players will be able to BECOME guards and target those players participating in thievery and assassinations. This will likely NOT be open choice but driven by the new Thieves and Dark Brotherhood guilds.
ZOS cannot allow open world pvp within the same faction as it goes entirely against lore and common sense. Get that out of your minds immediately. What they can do is allow lore friendly systems that is based entirely on voluntary participation that does not affect normal leveling. If you want to pvp you can become a guard and even then you likely cannot attack anyone until they break the law. Even so I highly doubt you will be allowed to kill someone simply stealing something.
ESO will become a game where you can police your own citizens but this is NOT open pvp. Becoming a cop in real life does not mean you get to walk around shooting people for gits and shiggles.
Edited by Tamanous on July 12, 2014 6:44PM3 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I am still hoping the skills used by guards to capture/detain criminals are not regular kill skills btw, so hopefully all this anguish is over nothing.4 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭adamrussell52_ESO wrote: »There's so much that can be fubar'd with a justice system.
Here's an example - of course we don't know how the justice system will work and whether it will work as intended. So you are branded an outlaw and can be attacked. Presumably you remain branded an outlaw so you decide to troll legit PVE players and get in their way and get hit with splash damage or running in front of them. Of course now PVP is engaged and you kill an ordinary PVE player. Ordinary PvE players do not like this. I suspect the justice system is going to be a disaster.
The same was said about WOW and it never stood any ground. No smart player is so stupid and casts a spell on a PVP enabled player if he doesn't want to pvp.
The solution is not auto-flag from healing pvp flagged players, but just make it so the heal does not land at all. If you do it the first way there are tricks to flag up just before the heal lands.
Also, wow had constant headaches in overland raids with one idiot flagging up and then all the healers getting accidentally flagged. Dont do it that way.
Yes but this is ZOS. I'm not sure they have such control over their game code to make this happen right
I remember RIFT screwed this up for many months, and SWTOR also had troubles getting this flagging right as well. ESO might be even messier, if our experiences with their recent patches on our skills can indicate how much understanding they have about tweaking existing coding.
Ridiculous statements.
1) They have all the contol they want over their code since they MADE the code.
2) Recent patches didn't bring problems because of how much understanding they have, they brought problems because the patching wasn't tested properly which is not the same thing. The bolts procking every time on werewolves where just not tested enough and FPS issues where related to their anti-boting system that checked to see if other threads of the game where being executed: Nothing to do with PVP or FPS. You can have all the control and knowledge in the world of your coding, sometimes when you do something, you break something else that is completely unrelated and not even the best developer could have thought that would happen. So your assumptions are unbiased.
Introducing a flagging system (and I hope it won't be that because a flagging system usually brings pricklike behavior and devs think they don't need to address the abusers since all you have to do to avoid being abused is remove pvp flag), is not a major change to implement if you compare it to other things they've done..Edited by TehMagnus on July 13, 2014 11:54AM1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
What babylon said.adamrussell52_ESO wrote: »There's so much that can be fubar'd with a justice system.
Here's an example - of course we don't know how the justice system will work and whether it will work as intended. So you are branded an outlaw and can be attacked. Presumably you remain branded an outlaw so you decide to troll legit PVE players and get in their way and get hit with splash damage or running in front of them. Of course now PVP is engaged and you kill an ordinary PVE player. Ordinary PvE players do not like this. I suspect the justice system is going to be a disaster.
The same was said about WOW and it never stood any ground. No smart player is so stupid and casts a spell on a PVP enabled player if he doesn't want to pvp.
The solution is not auto-flag from healing pvp flagged players, but just make it so the heal does not land at all. If you do it the first way there are tricks to flag up just before the heal lands.
Also, wow had constant headaches in overland raids with one idiot flagging up and then all the healers getting accidentally flagged. Dont do it that way.
Yes but this is ZOS. I'm not sure they have such control over their game code to make this happen right
I remember RIFT screwed this up for many months, and SWTOR also had troubles getting this flagging right as well. ESO might be even messier, if our experiences with their recent patches on our skills can indicate how much understanding they have about tweaking existing coding.
snip0 -
Raash✭✭✭✭@OP >>> I say No! PVE´rs should be protected, and with the hand on heart they usually are pretty bad at pvp in the first place and it would not be any sport to kill them anyway.
Let the pve people keep their pillows on elbows and knees, its better for all otherwise it would be a sob-fest like never seen before on the internet.Edited by Raash on July 13, 2014 2:08PM1 -
GasgiantSoul ShrivenI have done both PvP and PvE in a number of different MMOs. The simple fact is that as stated before, a good number of PvE players are horrid at PvP, and others just don't want to engage in it. The simple fact of the matter is that this is a game. People play it to have fun, so why introduce game play that forces a person into a situation that they don't find entertaining? There can be a robust justice system that has numerous PvE penalties for crime, and doesn't involve making a player that doesn't want to, fight another player. There has also been mention that without PvP, there would be little or nothing for player guards to do, that too can be handled with NPC criminals that try and commit crimes just like they had in Skyrim, or randomly generated bandit camps in some of the less used parts of the map that spring up bounties that only "guards" can claim. And for those that want the extra challenge, then let them flag for it them selves. Then once they reach the appropriate bounty amount, the gloves are off and they can be hunted down by other players.
It just makes for bad PvP when you make players who never PvP engage in it just for the sake of content experience. There is nothing but frustration for them, no challenge in it for those that do it often, and thus no fun all around. The only people that enjoy that kind of one sided fight are either trolls and/or the lowest common denominator of player I can imagine.2 -
cracker81✭✭✭
You clearly don't understand how healing works in this game.
Never played a healer. Seems crazy the game heals for you. So, you just run around and you heal ppl?2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
You clearly don't understand how healing works in this game.
Never played a healer. Seems crazy the game heals for you. So, you just run around and you heal ppl?
There's no actual targeting. You throw a heal and it hits you and random target/s.1 -
cracker81✭✭✭So, you hit a button to heal? I am sure you have a distance on the heal correct? I am sure the only way you get flag is healing said player when he/she commits a crime in town or healing a guard after crime outside of town. Then why are you healing in town? To easy to heal the player that is a guard, just make sure you kill the criminal.2
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babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So, you hit a button to heal? I am sure you have a distance on the heal correct? I am sure the only way you get flag is healing said player when he/she commits a crime in town or healing a guard after crime outside of town. Then why are you healing in town? To easy to heal the player that is a guard, just make sure you kill the criminal.
We don't even know how the flagging mechanics work.0 -
Spottswoode✭✭✭✭✭
QFT.
You clearly don't understand how healing works in this game.
Healing is a massive pain in this game even with aoe heals. You can't directly heal dying players unless you isolate them. Which can end with you, the healer, likely being targeted. You are also automatically targeted by the ai for being a healer, (I somehow aggroed a boss without moving or acting) and if the healer dies during a group effort...well you can probably guess the end of that. Having a single healer basically predestines you for party wipe. Which means everybody in raid groups has to use some form of healing in order to get by.
Edited by Spottswoode on July 26, 2014 7:10AMProud Player of The Elder Bank Screen Online.
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GasgiantSoul ShrivenI will preface this with the fact that we don't know much about the system or how it will work, but I was thinking and a possible situation occurred to me.
Will 'player' guards be able to detect crimes or just NPC guards?
This comes down to how stealth works in game and the abilities that will be given to the player. As it stands Nightblades are the only class with any sort of invisibility. That should give them an edge in committing crimes. However all classes have access to the Mages Guild which I believe has an ability to detect stealth/invisibility. That said, if player guards can detect crimes, then wouldn't every player who wants to be a guard grab that ability?
As an example lets say that there are Dark Brotherhood quests to go kill various people both in and out of town. Now while the targets out of town might not flag anyone, the targets in town could. Now lets say that player guards can detect crimes, then all they have to do is camp known assassination targets and it makes those quests that much harder for the assassins. NPC guards will react in a predictable fashion, they have patrol routs and behavior, players don't. NPC guards can be potential targets prior to assassinating the target, unless player guards are always flagged, they cant be targeted until after the attack has commenced. That can be a huge advantage in PvP.
Again, we don't know how the system will work or how flagging for PvP will take place exactly. Its too early to tell, and not enough information has been given as of yet to make any sort of real assumptions. However I do hope that the developers take into consideration things like the above example, because there are all sorts of ways this system could be abused if not handled right.1 -
grimjim398✭✭✭We do know this much about how the flagging works. You can only participate in the justice system as a player if you join the Guards or commit a crime.
If you can only fight other players as a guard or a criminal, that means that random player heals won't have any effect on the combatants. So there won't be any accidental flagging of players through heals.
ZOS has said very clearly that this will bring PVP that is limited to Guards and criminals to all areas of the game. This means PVP, not some special new skill that does not actually kill.
Nobody who is not a Guard or a criminal will be involved directly. Non-paricipants will be witnesses to this activity.
ZOS is calling this Active World PVP.1 -
Spottswoode✭✭✭✭✭This comes down to how stealth works in game and the abilities that will be given to the player. As it stands Nightblades are the only class with any sort of invisibility.
http://tamrieljournal.com/crafting-and-professions/alchemy/
Namira's Rot, Blue Entoloma, and Nirn Root gives everyone else invisibility. However, the Magelight does give players an edge while patrolling. The range is fairly limited, however, and can be easily manipulated through group tactics. (One player gets aggroed while the other actually steals the item and they split the value. Cooperation is not limited to the guards.
) Edited by Spottswoode on July 26, 2014 7:20AMProud Player of The Elder Bank Screen Online.
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Logan9a✭✭✭I'm just going to go on record and say that "PVP in a PVE world is probably the worst idea since starting a land war in Asia."1
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Murmeltier✭✭✭✭So, an upcoming patch will include a justice system, being able to kill NPCs, the possibility of going to jail, being hunted by guards, etc etc.
What about other players?
I remember when I was young and played MU Online, one had the possibility to attack other players. If you killed too many, you became hunted for a period of time (it took a lot of time to log out and the timer would stop untill you reconected again).
While being an Outlaw, any other player/group of players could kill you without penalties and get a special Title by doing so.
Ofc there should be limitations so that a VR12 doesn't go to a level 1-10 area & burns it to the ground, there should also be some incentive to become an outlaw and to killing outlaws (other than the title), like get a copy of a piece of gear the person has (with limitations to avoid duplicating rare dropables) or maybe a special "outlaw" and "justiciar" skill line.
A lot of things could be done and be fun. I think it could be entertaining to have such a system for maybe VR ranks.
No, this isn`t a good Idea and i am sure they will never implement this in a PVE Server. Maybe they offer in the Future the Option to choose a PVP only Server.
Maybe they build up the Justice System a little bit but they will never start an open PVP System in a PVE Server because the most People dont want this.
This isn`t an MMORPG which has multiple Servers for PVE, PVP and RPG, maybe in the Future but your Idea will never happen so.
Some Reasons why it won`t work.
The People should have the right to choose what they want to play and not a handfull of PVP Player which means that it COULD BE a GOOD IDEA because they WANT IT. PVP Players are only a little Piece from the People who plays Teso and they will never get the Option to "dictate" other Players how they have to play.
Some PVP Player are playing PVP for the Thrill and the most have Fun to gank and disturb other Players, maybe in the Towns or at the Mainquest. They call it fair and say you can strike back but the most Old Dogs known that this it isn`t true. Some of the Reasons are:
1. The most PVP Players choose a Territory and learn the Advantage of this through testing or via Internet/Youtube etc. They attack with little Risks, kill the other Player and run away with little Risks.
2. They optimize their Gear and have an Advantage in PVP and attack Players who don`t want to do the same or can`t do the same. They feel cool because they "win" but most of them don`t play really good. The Reason why they Win is they choose Advantages over other Players through Equip/Levels/Buffs or Things like the First Attack and Many versus One Tactics (Zergs).
Sure this is funny for some Players but not for the Players who don`t use such Advantages or doesn`t want to PVP.
"Funny" is that some of those PVP Players Logout in or after a Fight because they fear the Revenge of other Players after they gank them, they call it Tactic. Some of them try to use Exploits/Cheats and call this Tactics. Some of them /spit on the Corpse of the Player they have ganked and call this Tactics too.
Open World PVP isn`t fair and you will meet their Persons and Behaviours you don`t want to see but you can`t set them on ignore to solve the Problem.
One of the Arguments from PVP Players is that you can optimize your Gear too, play the same Style and if you don`t want to do this, it is your own fault because you have the same Chance. This is right but the most PVE Players don`t want to optimize their Gear and Setups for PVP or invest Time in PVP, they want to choose theirself, if they go to PVP or PVE.
So, to the End i can only say it isn`t a good Idea. Maybe Zenimax offers some PVE, PVP or RPG Server for the Future, like other MMORPGs do. So Players could choose on their own what they want to play. But i don`t think they start another Megaserver for a handfull of Players.
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cracker81✭✭✭I put 4 major categories of players.
Wolves- pvpers that gank pve players, camp any player if possible and any way to make your life hell. Find anyway to exploit the game as well.
Wolves in sheep clothes- pve players that find ways to grief players with no consequence.
Sheep dogs- pvp/pve player that fights other pvpers, kills wolves for fun, wish to kill wolves in sheep clothes, and will help anywhere as long as there is a good fight to be had. Find little joy in killing a pve player.
Sheep's - are just regular old pve players. You could have elite sheep that raid but still same.2 -
Murmeltier✭✭✭✭I put 4 major categories of players.
Wolves- pvpers that gank pve players, camp any player if possible and any way to make your life hell. Find anyway to exploit the game as well.
Wolves in sheep clothes- pve players that find ways to grief players with no consequence.
Sheep dogs- pvp/pve player that fights other pvpers, kills wolves for fun, wish to kill wolves in sheep clothes, and will help anywhere as long as there is a good fight to be had. Find little joy in killing a pve player.
Sheep's - are just regular old pve players. You could have elite sheep that raid but still same.
As an old Sheep i can`t count how often i kick some unfair Bu*** in PVP but now i know that some self declaimed "Wolves" are only "Sheeps" that used some Advantages, at the End, they die like others .
No, i was joking but to be serious, this Descriptions sounds nice but it is more a psychological Thing, like a PVP Player wants to see the Situation. It sounds like, i am the Hunter because i have the Huntergenetic and you are the Prey because you are born to do so.
The Theorie that a PVE Player cant play in PVP, isn`t right. PVP isn`t very difficult, not more then PVE. You use some other Tactics and they are learned fast. PVP Players often say that PVE Players can`t play PVP but i think it is more to anger the PVE Player.
How good a Player is, depends on his Skills and a Player who can use the right Skills in PVE, can learn to use the right Skills in PVP too. The only Difference is, in PVP you play against other Persons and not KIs but a PVE Player knows the Skills and can train them too.
Look at Youtube and you can find there a lot of Builds/Tactics and Tricks. The most PVP Players are using Tactics or Builds from other Persons, they can`t play really good but they use this "Tactics" that works and mean they are good.
But they just copy the Ideas from other Persons and use Advantages they have seen there. They mean Kill = Win = Wolf or a great Hunter
.
There are Players outhere who can play in PVP, who shows some nice Moves or use some nice Tactics with really fast Reflexes. But they play really good and don`t need any Tricks like the bad Players, who only copy some Style of the good Ones.
These Players are good and they know it but they don`t have the Behaviour to describe other People as Sheeps or Wolves, they act with Respect for each other and hunt for the Challenge and not to hurt other Players Ego.
Sure These Players, the really good ones are rare but you will find them in PVP and PVE.1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭Spottswoode wrote: »
QFT.
You clearly don't understand how healing works in this game.
Healing is a massive pain in this game even with aoe heals. You can't directly heal dying players unless you isolate them. Which can end with you, the healer, likely being targeted. You are also automatically targeted by the ai for being a healer, (I somehow aggroed a boss without moving or acting) and if the healer dies during a group effort...well you can probably guess the end of that. Having a single healer basically predestines you for party wipe. Which means everybody in raid groups has to use some form of healing in order to get by.
Trying hard to sound helpful...
"Which means everybody in raid groups has to use some form of healing in order to get by."
Yes, yes that is true. It is working as the original designers INTENDED. No or with consequences-paper-tiger builds in TESO. Everyone has to have heal utility either at least for themselves or to help others. Even WITH two healers in some of the endgame content you better be able to take care of yourself for a second or two ^-^.
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