WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

Sheyta

I totaly agree

"" People with legitimate constructive criticism are most often flatly ignored and frequently demonized and attacked by people on the forums thinking they are doing their part to "make positivism for the sake of it great again.""""


( I think we called them 'fanboi's (fanboy) )
always agree what ever been done or if its correct or wrong dont matter.
a another name is aslickers irl the sheer amouny of those staggering.

Yes sayers are irl.deemed.to. be leathal for.corporations.

Phinix1 wrote: »

Streamers do what they do to get sponsors, NOT to "represent the players" or some other starry-eyed nonsense.

I have never seen anything productive come of these meetings. If anything, the primary purpose it serves is to pacify the most vocal members of the community so people like Deltia will maybe not be so quick to dis things like casino crates next time, since they are being given special treatment. Less likely to bite the hand that feeds and all. So they throw 'em a bone.

People with legitimate constructive criticism are most often flatly ignored and frequently demonized and attacked by people on the forums thinking they are doing their part to "make positivism for the sake of it great again."

I have never met a company or community so allergic to constructive criticism as this one. Here it is treated like anything that isn't kitten memes and compliments is an evil, hostile attack against everything good and right in the world.

Sheesh...

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

Then when it comes time to talk to the people that are generating hype for the game who gets invited? The twitch crowd of course. Meh. More fuel for the meta-chasing homogenization of all classes and builds.

And ZOS STILL won't balance PVE and PVP separately (pure laziness) so every patch they further destroy unique play styles to counter the current PVP meta that people like Sypher and Fengrush and Deltia create.

Seems legit. Only invite echos to the chamber.

Elsonso

cheemers wrote: »

And I'm still fairly confident that the consoles have larger and quicker growing populations than PC, based on anecdotal multi-platform players' reports - even deltia in one of his recent videos mentioned how much more lively PS4 EU is compared to his normal PC NA. I'm also more inclined to lend credence to those players who have actually played on multiple platforms rather than simply deducing that "PC is the traditional home of MMORPGs therefore the population is bigger there". But until Zenimax actually releases player count stats, which I don't expect will be any time soon, we may as well keep chucking rebuttals at each other ad infinitum.

With single player TES games, and probably Fallout games, that are split across PC and Console, I generally assume that the PC market has about 10% of the total sales. Rough number. This is based on numbers for a game they released a few years ago. I don't think that it is any different for ESO, and certainly explains why ZOS went there with this game. While I am sure that Steam helps, I doubt that PC is anywhere close to parity with the lowest console population.

I have played on both PS4 and PC, and I will say that the only black mark for ESO that I encountered on PS4 was the horrible shape of the UI. They have not even started to tune this game for usability on PS4. It is like trying to run with a cinder block chained to your feet. The PS4 needs add-ons more desperately than PC, that is for sure. In the end, the whole UI experience with PS4 struck me as a terrible way to treat what is probably the largest player constituent in the game.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

I'd bet at least half the "streamers" that were invited were DC who don't currently give two craps about balance and that's being conservative.

Ultimately, I don't see this as being an issue. ZOS did not bring them in to so they could tell them how to fix the game. I don't know what other people think, but I don't assume that people like Wrobel are stupid, bumbling idiots that are lost and without a clue.

willlienellson wrote: »

I wrote this last time I took notice of someone claiming jealousy was the motivation behind my post, so I'll post it again now.

"I want my friends, good players, to stop leaving the game because it is always moving in inexplicable directions by a company that seems completely ALOOF to feedback while the game becomes more and more synonymous with these celebrity players that are surrounded by, if not themselves, the most cancerous toxic members of the game."

You disagree with me? That's fine, but when people dismiss a feeling that well over a hundred people seem to agree with as "you be hatin cause you so jelly bro, lulz" you seem like.........ahh heck I better stop. Rules and stuff.

While I won't attribute to jealousy, can you be sure that all of those people are leaving for the same reason?

This game is going to move in inexplicable directions, at least from some perspective. ZOS expects that people will feel that way, and if they leave the game, that is unfortunate, but also not unexpected.

I am pretty sure that ZOS has brought people in who they think will be able to assess the game, balance, and environment quickly, determine strategies and tactics quickly, and be able to make the most of the time and expense. That streamers are included should not come as a surprise. ZOS can see what they are doing, and that helps them get a better idea of whether they will be beneficial. They can also browse forums and websites for builds that show an understanding of the game, and hope those people will pay off, if invited. They can look at leaderboards for people who might also fit the needs.

These people are not being brought in to tell ZOS what to do. They are being brought in to show ZOS what they can do. These will be top players, just because they have the traits ZOS is looking for.

Now, where you should get worried is when they invite me in. I don't care about balance in this game, and I have no interest in being a top player. That is work, and I play for recreation.

bowmanz607

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

I've done what we assume @Deltia et al are doing in a different game. But I knew that game inside out, I managed 4 servers totaling over 110 player slots, I was very actively involved in cheat detection and prevention, and I could scan down server logs and just know if something was wrong. And with all of that being involved in such a task was not easy.

So am I jealous of those invited? No.
I know I am not at the level of understanding of this game that would make me an asset to that group - and such a group can not afford to have anyone in it that shouldn't be in it.

But @willlienellson points are still valid. A handful of the top 5% of players isn't representative - no matter what it is they are testing, previewing.

Let's assume they are testing the Battlegrounds. If this is how it proceeds then those battlegrounds will be "balanced" around meta builds 90% of the playerbase don't use, gear builds that 90% of the playerbase don't have access to, and a skill level 60^ of the playerbase will never attain.

Cyrodiil already turns most players away from PvP because unless you run a meta build, with uber gear and 500+ CP you are nothing more than meat for someone else's grinder.

Repeating that with Battlegrounds will NOT encourage those players to engage with PvP more than they already do. So you'll end up with all these resources spent on an aspect of the game that maybe 20% regularly use and everyone else uses once and thinks "n'ah, I'd rather not thanks".

If that happens what is the likelihood of ZeniMax spending any more serious money on PvP? Zero!

Some people see Battlegrounds as a leap forward for PvP in ESO.
They aren't.

They are a litmus test for ZeniMax to see if they can make the investment in PvP payoff, to see if PvP is worth supporting at all going forward. Battleground are, in effect, One Tamriel for PvP - an attempt to make that game content much more inclusive, and much more appealing to a greater percentage of the playerbase.

They need a more Inclusive PvP model to make any future investment a value for money investment. And they will not achieve that by balancing the new PvP around 0.01% of the 20% that actually PvP.

The new PvP needs to accommodate non meta builds, it needs to accommodate casual PvPers who roll in with their PvE build (something that SWTOR Warsones did very, very well in comparison to most games), it needs to make sure the bottom 20% of players don't go in there once, get steamrollered and never come back.

So, if this is about getting Battlegrounds tested and balanced by "top end" players and leading edge theorycrafters, as some of you have suggested then the alarming news for you is this: they are still doing it wrong.

All The Best

Stop throwing out random numbers. 90% here and 60% there. You have zero idea. Stop making crap up. Your points don't even make sense. You say 90% of people don't run meta builds???? Then it would not be meta genius. The meta would be something else. Besides all those viper procs, selense, vel, eye etc must be in my imagination. I mean if 90% of people don't run meta, I must only die to 10% of the people then.

Further, it is obvious you don't watch streamers. Sure they have some meta builds, but they also run builds no one runs until people see them. Have you seen syoher nb build? Have you ever watched him run dw/bow in pvp? Have you seen fends utility build? What about all the none proc non meta builds delta has teleased. Do you watch their streams where they switch it up? [SNIp]

PvP should accommodate PvE builds??? What?[SNIp].

This game is set up for casuals already. They don't even need skill to beat good players many times any more. Imagine if skills was still a huge factor. It would be worse for them.[SNIp]

[Edited For Bait]

bowmanz607

willlienellson wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

snip

I can't even begin to reply to you in detail without breaking the rules, because you're post was so full of just baiting nonsense and ridiculous rhetorical question one after another.

You wrote that many people agree with their positions. That's fair. But many people also agree with mine. Go check the OP and look at the agrees at the bottom. Then look at the actual number of people attacking me in this thread. A few of them are posting dozens of times. One guy posted like 6 snarky posts (like yours) in a single page.

So, I don't think anyone doubts that the streamers have supporters. But if you think I'm some lone guy that is "just jelly", you need to go look at the numbers on the bottom of that OP and get some perspective.

But I'm not jealous, and I don't really understand who over the age of 15 would be jealous of a professional video gamer.lol

I wrote this last time I took notice of someone claiming jealousy was the motivation behind my post, so I'll post it again now.

"I want my friends, good players, to stop leaving the game because it is always moving in inexplicable directions by a company that seems completely ALOOF to feedback while the game becomes more and more synonymous with these celebrity players that are surrounded by, if not themselves, the most cancerous toxic members of the game."

You disagree with me? That's fine, but when people dismiss a feeling that well over a hundred people seem to agree with as "you be hatin cause you so jelly bro, lulz" you seem like.........ahh heck I better stop. Rules and stuff.

I disagree they cater to celebrities. If you had even some idea of what many of these streamers have asked for you would realize that they don't get a lot of changes they ask for. This game has been heavy casual bias since console launch. Go watch their videos, their streams, remember we are eso???. You will see that much of that they have to say goes ignored. So to say they cater to them is just false.in fact, many people would come back of they listened to them.

ThePaleItalian

@Deltia

I hope you have a blast, but know that the loudest voices are not always the majorities. I think that is what concerns people the most. As hard as I am sure it can be, do not tailor the game to just one single aspect or gameplay style.

Joy_Division

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

The new PvP needs to accommodate non meta builds, it needs to accommodate casual PvPers who roll in with their PvE build (something that SWTOR Warsones did very, very well in comparison to most games), it needs to make sure the bottom 20% of players don't go in there once, get steamrollered and never come back.

So, if this is about getting Battlegrounds tested and balanced by "top end" players and leading edge theorycrafters, as some of you have suggested then the alarming news for you is this: they are still doing it wrong.

All The Best

LoL. Is this a joke? Zos has been bending over backwards since the very beginning to accommodate "casual PvPers". Shield breaker set is about as casual as it gets. Same with Viscious Death. Proc sets that deal damage for players? Casual. AoE caps? Casual. Zerg-friendly meta? Casual. Breath of Life spamming templars? Casual. CP system making resource management trivial? Casual. Desto ultimate getting kills even while being a terrible player? Casual. Gap-closer auto snare? Casual. Removal of ground oils? Casual. Battle Spirit mechanic? Casual

All of these measures have gone against the advice of the majority of the "elite" streamers you are so scared ZoS will all of a sudden start listening to. ZoS invited other people to Maryland too you know.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

[SNIp]

As someone who played in competitive leagues for FPS games let me assure you of one thing: if you think PvP in MMORPGs has anything at all to do with player skill you are very much mistaken.

In FPS games where EVERYONE has the same gear and EVERYONE has the same skill bar options - THAT is where player skill really comes into it.

And most MMORPGs PvPers wouldn't last 2 hours in that environment - so they play MMORPGs where FOTM Builds, and Gear are a proxy for 99% of skill.

And then when on a rare someone does come along and beat them they whine constantly to get skills nerfed becuase its just not fair they get beaten.

These are NOT the type of people who should be consulted about balancing a game, because they don't want balance - they want easy kills over guys who aren't running the Meta build with uber gear.

All The Best

[Edited for removed content]

Jitterbug

"ZoS never listens to players!"

"We've invited some players to HQ."

"You invited the wrong players."

"We've invited a diverse group from all over the world."

"Sypher OP!"

The bits in italics should be read in a squeaky voice.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Joy_Division wrote: »

Desto ultimate getting kills even while being a terrible player?

For the record if someone use a Destro ultimate at the point they have people around them to target and they get kills that makes them a good player - they used the skill at the tactically appropriate time.

The terrible player is the fool who gets killed by a Destro ultimate.

Let me give you a hint - don't stand in it.

All The Best

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Joy_Division wrote: »

LoL. Is this a joke? Zos has been bending over backwards since the very beginning to accommodate "casual PvPers". Shield breaker set is about as casual as it gets. Same with Viscious Death. Proc sets that deal damage for players? Casual. AoE caps? Casual. Zerg-friendly meta? Casual. Breath of Life spamming templars? Casual. CP system making resource management trivial? Casual. Desto ultimate getting kills even while being a terrible player? Casual. Gap-closer auto snare? Casual. Removal of ground oils? Casual. Battle Spirit mechanic? Casual

And still only approximately 20% of players bother with PvP.

So they are still not getting it right, and further investment is probably money down the drain.

All The Best

Sugaroverdose

leepalmer95 wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Hey man at least these streamers can spell ZeniMax right.

Oh darn. That completely refutes everything I said. Totes.
I didn't even bold the corporate name, or capitalize it in the middle. I'm so ashamed of myself.

Most popular streamers tend to play all classes, they tend to have a lot of play time in the game. They play the game at a very high level and know what they are talking about.

So why shouldn't zos bring in high end players for testing? Is that such a bad thing.

Also i capitalised ZeniMax in the middle because that is how it is.

Fengrush plays all classes if they're stamsorc

bowmanz607

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

This game is set up for casuals already. They don't even need skill to beat good players many times any more. Imagine if skills was still a huge factor. It would be worse for them. Bottom line is if your not competent at the game you get steamrolled. Competent players dont. I don't know about you but I don't want incompetent players testing this game.

As someone who played in competitive leagues for FPS games let me assure you of one thing: if you think PvP in MMORPGs has anything at all to do with player skill you are very much mistaken.

In FPS games where EVERYONE has the same gear and EVERYONE has the same skill bar options - THAT is where player skill really comes into it.

And most MMORPGs PvPers wouldn't last 2 hours in that environment - so they play MMORPGs where FOTM Builds, and Gear are a proxy for 99% of skill.

And then when on a rare someone does come along and beat them they whine constantly to get skills nerfed becuase its just not fair they get beaten.

These are NOT the type of people who should be consulted about balancing a game, because they don't want balance - they want easy kills over guys who aren't running the Meta build with uber gear.

All The Best

you obviously never played the game pre-cp. Skill was a big part of the game. If you played better you won. If you sucked you died. the current game requires little skill, but it didnt used to be like that. CASUAL players killed it.

People like....

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Desto ultimate getting kills even while being a terrible player?

For the record if someone use a Destro ultimate at the point they have people around them to target and they get kills that makes them a good player - they used the skill at the tactically appropriate time.

The terrible player is the fool who gets killed by a Destro ultimate.

Let me give you a hint - don't stand in it.

All The Best

this^ type of player jave lead the game down a casual road. the mentality that oh i used it tactically cause people were around.

that is what zos should not be listening to.

All The Best

kuro-dono

its delight to see gandrhulf shovel facts into bricks arses. i like the idea how all those skills that been layered on desk were supposed to be for casuals, but sadly are being mostly used by pros:s, well played, i think someone also forgot to mention batswarming dk:s here.

kuro-dono

this kind of topic really tells what sort of human trash eso pvp elites are, based on their comments that is. some ofc are good and on topic, but rest.. more emotion, more salt, less facts.

shots been fired.

bowmanz607

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LoL. Is this a joke? Zos has been bending over backwards since the very beginning to accommodate "casual PvPers". Shield breaker set is about as casual as it gets. Same with Viscious Death. Proc sets that deal damage for players? Casual. AoE caps? Casual. Zerg-friendly meta? Casual. Breath of Life spamming templars? Casual. CP system making resource management trivial? Casual. Desto ultimate getting kills even while being a terrible player? Casual. Gap-closer auto snare? Casual. Removal of ground oils? Casual. Battle Spirit mechanic? Casual

And still only approximately 20% of players bother with PvP.

So they are still not getting it right, and further investment is probably money down the drain.

All The Best

stop throwing out random percentages. You have nothing to base them on. Just stop.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

kuro-dono

what sort of facts ppl got supporting that game is catering more for casuals? is this personal fact or actually fact from zenimax?

the aoe choo choo is way more thing than before, and that is actually elite playstyle, not casual style where group runs in ts highly coordinated, and destroying the so called casuals who this game is supposed to be catering for, based on the elites words that is, which in fact, isnt really good source of valid knowledge/fact

Gandrhulf_Harbard

bowmanz607 wrote: »

this^ type of player jave lead the game down a casual road. the mentality that oh i used it tactically cause people were around.

that is what zos should not be listening to.

So are you saying that to tactically use an AOE skill I should use it when there aren't any potential targets to hit?

Really?

There are three valid tactical reasons for using an AOE skill I can think of:
1. To target a group of enemies with the intention of harming/killing them.
2. To target an area in the expectation of revealing hidden enemies.
3. To target an area to deny the enemy passage through that area.

You have any issues with that?

So my comment above that:

For the record if someone use a Destro ultimate at the point they have people around them to target and they get kills that makes them a good player - they used the skill at the tactically appropriate time.

The terrible player is the fool who gets killed by a Destro ultimate.

Was accurate, and for you to claim it wasn't shows that ZOS should not be listening to people like you.

All The Best

luen79rwb17_ESO

ZOS said they need theorycrafters for this private testing session.

I believe streamers are one of the better sources for that since 99% (alas almost everyone else) of the playerbase just follow their builds, gears and play strats.

Junipus

willlienellson wrote: »

ZOS Focuses way too much on the feedback of elite "celebrity" gamers while they roundly ignore player consensus and feedback on the forums as a matter of course. It's a problem.
Original Post Below:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Apparently, right now, a select elite of ESO youtubers like Sypher and Deltia, etc are meeting in person with Zenimax after being invited to the headquarters.

While these youtubers provide a service with their content, they hardly represent the ESO player base neither formally nor informally. They most often represent each other. They represent a micro-industry that operates along side ESO. If anything in-game, they represent a small minority of elite guilds that don't experience ESO like the rest of us and are not good representatives.

Please allow me to explain and provide examples.

PvP: I'm not suggesting any of the specific youtubers or "celebrity players" cheat (although some do and have been banned for it), but they also don't experience playing against cheating, or even against OP players, in the same way. Members of this class of ESO players avoid combat with each other. Many of the known cheaters in this game belong to the same guilds as these elite celebrity ESO players. That doesn't mean the celebrity youtubers are cheating, but it usually means the cheaters don't fight against them. This results in this group having an unrealistically casual viewpoint on cheating as something more benign than it is.

Exploits/Secrets: And exploiting game glitches is the cousin of cheating. Things that aren't working as intended, but are unlikely to get you banned, are passed around as open-secrets within the group and become staples of builds, but are not shared publicly because they don't want them fixed.

Here are two examples of fixed exploits that people weren't getting banned for, that I think I can provide since they no longer work.

1) You could double enchant Flanking Set jewelry with a total of 6 jewelry glyphs instead of 3.
2) You could glitch out Hist Bark set to give a dodge bonus even after you took the set off.

So while you were making the hard choices about how to enchant your jewelry, some players were not. When you were spending 3000 stamina to cast Shuffle, or wearing 5 pieces of Hist Bark, others were dodging with neither.

I'm not accusing anyone of doing these things, but I know the people who did do these things are embedded within that small community. So, at it's most benign, this colors the feedback and impressions of the players in that community which are passed on to Zos as apparently about the only feedback they are actually interested in.

Powercreep: Even if none of the youtube celebrity player cheat, or exploit, or take advantage of tricks....the higher ceiling of performance that is enjoyed on average in these communities is exacerbating the power creep problem in this game. Members of this sector of the community are always the first to say, "This game offers me no challenge. VMA is too easy. This is too easy. That is too easy".

Balancing: Their opinion of balance rarely reflects the community because they rarely face players utilizing abilities to their maximum effectiveness due to the fact that players within this class avoid fighting each other. This is the only game I've ever played where friends cannot play against each other. I've had several of the people I consider members of this niche group actually tell me point blank, "Friends don't kill each other in PvP. I'll give you a pass and you give me a pass. Stop fighting against me or I'm taking you off friends list".

Instead of two great players with great builds fighting each other and learning that certain abilities are indeed out of balance, they pass by each other, high-fiving one another as they farm the pugs from each others alliances and convince themselves that the game is perfectly balanced but THEY are individually "Gods of PvP".
These players don't have experiences in the game that would allow them to adequately represent the larger player base.

The resources were used to have this elite youtube gathering session at Zenimax would have been better spent reading the forums, selecting a few issues with broad community consensus, and then having an internal meeting on how to best address those concerns. But that's too much to hope for.

Yes, I'm painting with a broad brush. There are exceptions to every rule and I'm not trying to disparage anyone specifically. I don't blame anyone for accepting the invitation. This is a rebuke of how Zos operates.

I subscribe to Deltia's channel, I like his content, and his personality. But I don't like him as a representative of ESO players.

If you like their videos, that's fine. If you run their builds, that's great. If you think I'm full of crap, that's okay. And Zos can invite whoever they want on a sleepover.
But, if you've ever wondered why this game is balanced around the top 1% of players and the roleplayers being bought off with mount reskins with everyone in the middle ignored, THIS IS WHY.

[Edit to remove mention of moderator actions and political references]

@willlienellson Shout all you want, they won't listen to you and for good reason. Try putting your money where your mouth is and streaming for months and years on end about ESO and see if they'll then invite you to the next one. In the meantime, I'll just be here laughing

cpuScientist

willlienellson wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

Pretty sure it's all simply marketing and optics.

Which makes no sense to me at all. All these dedicated ESO youtube channels would be talking about the same things whether they got invited for special feedback or not

I even watched Sypher's video for the first time and he was like, "I'm testing super secret things I can't talk about".

That is hardly amazing "marketing and optics".

If this were about marketing......I think we'd be getting......wait for it...marketing.

Instead you've got (of the couple min I watched) Sypher saying he cannot say what they're testing and then asking his subscribers to let him know what issues and feedback he should give.
If this is marketing, this is failed marketing.

This is marketing and it's good marketing.so you reference syphers video. He is testing top secret things. Then when he gets back he will be with the knowledge of the things to come and will be energizing his fanbases about the secrets he can't tell.

He will have a timeframe for when he can actually release info. This will keep up buzz with all his fans. Same with deltia and alkosh.

It also shows these streamers that look ESO is going to remain profitable for you. Do you see we do have alot of things upcoming, so stick with the game and you will see alot of traffic back to your channels. This is ZOS making sure to keep their streamers.

Streamers and theory crafters keep big games like this being talked about. Game companies want to keep them happy, they make money off of ZOS by advertising for ZOS through their videos.

This has already created enough buzz that people are in this very forum arguing with you non stop. This whole forum post is an advert. You are making people interested in exactly what is going on with these guys at ZOS and what they will say about their experience.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LoL. Is this a joke? Zos has been bending over backwards since the very beginning to accommodate "casual PvPers". Shield breaker set is about as casual as it gets. Same with Viscious Death. Proc sets that deal damage for players? Casual. AoE caps? Casual. Zerg-friendly meta? Casual. Breath of Life spamming templars? Casual. CP system making resource management trivial? Casual. Desto ultimate getting kills even while being a terrible player? Casual. Gap-closer auto snare? Casual. Removal of ground oils? Casual. Battle Spirit mechanic? Casual

And still only approximately 20% of players bother with PvP.

So they are still not getting it right, and further investment is probably money down the drain.

All The Best

stop throwing out random percentages. You have nothing to base them on. Just stop.

I have no idea how much experience you have with the MMORPG scene, and with communicating (and I don't just mean via forum posts, I mean with direct person to person contact) with MMORPG companies from a Player's point of view. I have lots.

And it is a general observation that across the MMORPG industry as a whole approximately 20% of players will engage with PvP on a regular basis. It is a well established fact borne out by analysis by the MMORPG industry.

I expect that in ESO - because PvE content is gated in PvP areas - that more than 20% of ESO players regularly engage with PvP. But even if it were double the industry average, and it may well be that, it still wouldn't even be half of the total playerbase.

So it a) isn't a random percentage, and b) I have the industry's own analysis to base it on.

That you didn't know that suggests that you are a relative newcomer to the MMORPG genre with little experience beyond ESO.

All The Best

kylewwefan

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

LoL. Is this a joke? Zos has been bending over backwards since the very beginning to accommodate "casual PvPers". Shield breaker set is about as casual as it gets. Same with Viscious Death. Proc sets that deal damage for players? Casual. AoE caps? Casual. Zerg-friendly meta? Casual. Breath of Life spamming templars? Casual. CP system making resource management trivial? Casual. Desto ultimate getting kills even while being a terrible player? Casual. Gap-closer auto snare? Casual. Removal of ground oils? Casual. Battle Spirit mechanic? Casual

And still only approximately 20% of players bother with PvP.

So they are still not getting it right, and further investment is probably money down the drain.

All The Best

stop throwing out random percentages. You have nothing to base them on. Just stop.

On PS4 it's only 12.1% so you're a bit off with 20%

there's achievements you can base the random numbers on. Like .3% of players beat Maelstrom and they won't do anything about it. That's right. Not 3%. You read that right .3%

Point 3 percent and they think there's no problem there. Maybe it's more on PC and Xbox IDK?

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

bowmanz607

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

this^ type of player jave lead the game down a casual road. the mentality that oh i used it tactically cause people were around.

that is what zos should not be listening to.

So are you saying that to tactically use an AOE skill I should use it when there aren't any potential targets to hit?

Really?

There are three valid tactical reasons for using an AOE skill I can think of:
1. To target a group of enemies with the intention of harming/killing them.
2. To target an area in the expectation of revealing hidden enemies.
3. To target an area to deny the enemy passage through that area.

You have any issues with that?

So my comment above that:

For the record if someone use a Destro ultimate at the point they have people around them to target and they get kills that makes them a good player - they used the skill at the tactically appropriate time.

The terrible player is the fool who gets killed by a Destro ultimate.

Was accurate, and for you to claim it wasn't shows that ZOS should not be listening to people like you.

All The Best

no, the point is that there is a single ability in this game that destroys many targets in a single push of a button when people are around you.

Yes, valid reasons to use aoe. I agree. Canbe tactical. but an aoe that destroys people around them in mere seconds is not tactical. It does not take skill.

You say you wait for the right moment when people are around to use it which is tactical. But any skill that where you can just press a button and kill everyone is not tactical. It is the "i win" button. The casual button.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

From personal observation, the game has over the years since its release catered more to making things more casual. Even with "listening to the community" they only did what a major group of complainers complained about, which were trivial things at best, and the real issues that others were trying to tell them about were ignored.

I'd agree with that.

But then the audience demographic for this type of game has become increasingly "casual" even in the last few years.

With limited resources MMO companies are somewhat forced to spend those resources in a manner that delivers the most bang for the buck.

Wildstar thought there was a market for a more "hardcore" style of game and launched with exactly that attitude and within 12 months was having to make the game more casual friendly because there just aren't enough hardcore players to make such a game economically viable. Reading around various industry website it seems many people see Wildstar as the prime candidate for closing its doors this year - which would be a shame IMO, it is a very different game-world to many MMORPGs and that is a good thing.

All The Best

anitajoneb17_ESO

Jitterbug wrote: »

"ZoS never listens to players!"

"We've invited some players to HQ."

"You invited the wrong players."

"We've invited a diverse group from all over the world."

"Sypher OP!"

The bits in italics should be read in a squeaky voice.

LoL yes... or the shorter version :
"ZOS should listen, but to noone else but me".

bowmanz607

what i think is being misconstrued is the reason for these players going. It is not to tell zos what to do with the game. They are going their to be testers. To test the contepts. Mostly to find bugs and exploits. Just like beta testers do. They pick the best people to do this. A casual player is less likely to find bugs and exploits because they are casual.They wont push the game to find those.

They were not brought in to advise ZoS on what to do with the game.

idk

*grabs popcorn and a cold one.

This thread was devolved from the start but it's gotten really entertaining today.

NightbladeMechanics

Wow, you're super jaded against in game accomplishment and skill. Wow...

FYI the three players meeting with ZOS have been around since beta, are more knowledgeable than 99% of the community, have excelled in all spheres of the game, love the game, and have its best interest at heart.

Do you have better suggestions for candidates to attend these meetings?

Keep in mind that we don't seek to elect average citizens to govern our countries. We seek to elect the smartest and best qualified and most well-intentioned.

If you do not, your point is invalid.