WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

Karius_Imalthar

I can't speak on everything the OP wrote but I do feel that a lot of companies like ZOS listen to the streamers who do not speak for average players and don't necessarily have the same experiences/frustrations as average players.

MopeyHat

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Not going to name name's as that always yields a warning or a suspension... but one of the "well known" streamers is not only a faction fanboy, but he's pretty nasty in game. His showcase is abusing mechanics and doing nothing but attack one faction with a zerg he claims isn't there.

It's insulting to have to be represented by players of one faction who all abuse the hell out of the game.

So much this in regards to certain streamers.

What kind of "ambassador" just pisses off half to 2/3s of alliance warfare players? How can they represent us when they can be so dense as to not recognize the imbalances they create?

As far as Cyrodiil goes, I wouldn't put a lot of stake in their opinions.

Paraflex

I like the idea they are bringing people in the community to the table. I may not agree with 100% of thier ideas I trust all of them will help balance and promote a healthy PvP and PvE environment.

Castagere

Yeah this is nothing new with Utubers that stream mmo's. Their streams are for the other elite players in the game only. Most non elite players find those streams totally useless to them. I stopped watching most Utube game streamers a long time ago. Ever notice how hard it is for new players to really get the help they need. They mostly get bombarded with info they had nothing to do with the question they asked. I always tell new players to any mmo to stay away from these streamer and sit back and do their own research or google their question in hopes of finding an answer. If they are not willing to do this then they are in for a bad time.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Precisely this.

Stop paying attention to the 1% with a camera. They do not represent us.

Riga_Mortis

Dont think theses guys and gals will have much influence over things like class balance. Pretty sure they are there to test the ebb and flow of the new modes in battlegrounds, and maybe the mechanics of the new trial.
This is basically the ZeniMax equivalent of Activision flying out popular CoD youtubers to playtest new map packs etc.

DragonBound

Riga_Mortis wrote: »

Dont think theses guys and gals will have much influence over things like class balance. Pretty sure they are there to test the ebb and flow of the new modes in battlegrounds, and maybe the mechanics of the new trial.
This is basically the ZeniMax equivalent of Activision flying out popular CoD youtubers to playtest new map packs etc.

Maybe your right, but man this was a refresing topic from your usual stuff.

DragonBound

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The main issue with inviting popular streamers is that popular streamers are also very far removed from the base.

They have far more time playing than others and min/max at a level not normally seen. Like if you play a stamina class, who really has the time to level up destruction staff just to use the ultimate? The streamers do, because they don't do much else past play games... I know they claim otherwise, and claims are easy to make... but math is a thing and when you divide a day of 24 hours into 6-8 of streaming + anything else you are left with needing a longer day.

Not going to name name's as that always yields a warning or a suspension... but one of the "well known" streamers is not only a faction fanboy, but he's pretty nasty in game. His showcase is abusing mechanics and doing nothing but attack one faction with a zerg he claims isn't there.

It's insulting to have to be represented by players of one faction who all abuse the hell out of the game.

You can just imagine the drivel they spew to devs if given the opportunity. It's not going to be constructive or meaningful.

Just look at the streamers that do nothing but follow the servers giving them the most buffs due to server alignment. They only play where they have an advantage and then they exploit on top of that. That's who ZOS picks to represent players?

Sypher is the only reasonable one and plays multiple faction and doesn't (for the most part, or as far as I know) really abuse the game.

It's a 3 faction game and one faction is over-represented with the streamers, because they need to play with an advantage... because without it.. they aren't very good.

Very interesting.

Anhedonie

No offence, but streamers is just a bunch of whiny drama queens. They don't give a *** about game. Only about how many people they got with their clickbates and salty asses.

Rex-Umbra

I trust my streamers.

Mojmir

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

I trust my streamers.

Make sure you click that donate button,don't forget to subscribe "play dubstep"

Balamoor

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Who cares game is already in the poop anything they add won't take away or help

Yeah that's why it keeps winning mmo of the year and is packed all the time, and that's why the dev team (if you look at the jobs board is still expanding exponentially) and that's why it gets such favorable press from most legitimate news sites.

But the oracle of all gaming knowledge FloppyTouch says it is poop so poop it must be.

Ur fanboy/girl is showing chill fam. point of that post was to say the dev are going to do what ever they want to do no matter what. they could read this forums and see the point of view of the players. A few people that stream not going to change anything so why freak out like the OP is.

Before you trot out the tired fanboy trope check out my fun criticisms of lag, public dungeons, costumes and the business model.

I was just stating facts because I like facts as opposed to hyperbole. You said the game was crap and basically irredeemable which is nonsense.

And saying that it would be nice for the devs to offer something to expand communication between developers and players beyond streamers (who many players and people in general have legitimate issues with) is a far cry from freaking out....but most of your post are just different ways of saying the game sucks so probably wasting my breath.

Balamoor

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

I trust my streamers.

Says the streamer!

I kid I kid :-P

Calboy

Mmm delicious egos

Paraflex

@willlienellson you need to log off the forums for awhile your assuming a lot about this meeting and attacking streamers and players with your mixed emotions and opinion of them.

Facts - we know approximately 10 people or more went to this meeting.

An airline ticket,hotel,food,car, and any other travel expense would be at most $5,000 per person for a few days. They are spending at most $50,000 for an unknown reason. Plus their own employees are now assigned to this unknown focus group. They had them sign contracts for this meeting.

I think this is a good sign for the game and hopefully we have some meaningful content and PvP balance with knowledgeable players,streamers,and trial players.

This is endgame content they are focusing on I would be 100% sure if that.

We know last week they released hype about the next expansion. My guess is they want this focus group to help them develop the next expansion and make it even better for end game people.

You should be happy about them spending the time with players in the community and not bitching about it like you should have been selected or could do a better job yourself.

Fuxo

ZOS knows the Morrowind chapter will be reviewed by media and prepare for influx of new players. There is a lot of money being invested in marketing and improving the gameplay is crucial. They are doing everything they can to make sure the game gets better scores than last time.

Arthg

Paraflex wrote: »

@willlienellson you need to log off the forums for awhile your assuming a lot about this meeting and attacking streamers and players with your mixed emotions and opinion of them.

Facts - we know approximately 10 people or more went to this meeting.

An airline ticket,hotel,food,car, and any other travel expense would be at most $5,000 per person for a few days. They are spending at most $50,000 for an unknown reason. Plus their own employees are now assigned to this unknown focus group. They had them sign contracts for this meeting.

I think this is a good sign for the game and hopefully we have some meaningful content and PvP balance with knowledgeable players,streamers,and trial players.

This is endgame content they are focusing on I would be 100% sure if that.

We know last week they released hype about the next expansion. My guess is they want this focus group to help them develop the next expansion and make it even better for end game people.

You should be happy about them spending the time with players in the community and not bitching about it like you should have been selected or could do a better job yourself.

You claim your reasoning is based on facts, but the ones you mention are approximate (your own words), and you end up speculating on the costs and orders of the day of the meeting.

In the process, not only do you fail to address the issues at hand in this thread (are streamers a good choice to represent the player base? why not use forum feedback more?), but you don't even bother to try to understand the OP's bona fide point of view (quote the part where he "***" about not being selected or about being able to do a better job than said streamers, please).

It's OK to think that it's a good idea of ZOS's to have a ginger latte (my turn to speculate) with popular streamers, and some good may indeed come out of all this.

But clearly ZOS's appalling record of ignored suggestions, bugs/cheats/exploits reports on these here forums, along with the per definition exceptional (i.e. not representative) experience streamers have of the game (because of their skill, status, gaming time, etc.), should at least make you pause and consider that the OP, well, has a point, really.

If this still isn't the case, well apply the first sentence of your own post to yourself and the OP.

Balamoor

Paraflex wrote: »

@willlienellson you need to log off the forums for awhile your assuming a lot about this meeting and attacking streamers and players with your mixed emotions and opinion of them.

Facts - we know approximately 10 people or more went to this meeting.

An airline ticket,hotel,food,car, and any other travel expense would be at most $5,000 per person for a few days. They are spending at most $50,000 for an unknown reason. Plus their own employees are now assigned to this unknown focus group. They had them sign contracts for this meeting.

I think this is a good sign for the game and hopefully we have some meaningful content and PvP balance with knowledgeable players,streamers,and trial players.

This is endgame content they are focusing on I would be 100% sure if that.

We know last week they released hype about the next expansion. My guess is they want this focus group to help them develop the next expansion and make it even better for end game people.

You should be happy about them spending the time with players in the community and not bitching about it like you should have been selected or could do a better job yourself.

No offense, but you seem to have a dog in the hunt. I can't speak for @willlienellson, but me personally I really don't. I just have seen the train wreck when developers listen too much to self styled elite players even at end game.

My company was consulting for EA/Bioware when they did their guild summit and we cautioned them to invite a larger demographic and they didn't listen, It cost them a lot of subs because many of other loyal players felt alienated. Afterward they did the Cantina tour bus to try and make up for it but, Bioware didn't see a significant recovery until the Revan expansion.

At Quakecon15 and Pax Boston16 the Zenimax booth was packed, seemed like most people there wanted to give feedback, I kept hearing at Quakecon that folks didn't feel like they were being heard, and I'm sorry but, a few youtubers who live off clicks isn't going to change that perception.

I don't have a problem with who Zenimax invites, but they do need to find a better way to receive feedback from a larger demographic of the game, if they don't they are going to make their customers feel alienated and that's never good, especially in this fickle market.

Just my two cents take it as you will.

SirAndy

Gallifreyy wrote: »

To my knowledge ZOS has selected people ... that are influential to a majority of the player base

That's some next level epeen stuff right there ...

I knew those guys were full of themselves but seriously, "influential to a majority of the player base"?
What the heck are you smoking?

rfennell_ESO

Balamoor wrote: »

I don't have a problem with who Zenimax invites, but they do need to find a better way to receive feedback from a larger demographic of the game, if they don't they are going to make their customers feel alienated and that's never good, especially in this fickle market.

Just my two cents take it as you will.

I would rather them take no feedback, you aren't going to get anything worthwhile out of streamers who are only invested in promoting themselves (and usually their faction).

ZOS needs to look at the data they have and make objective decisions.

You aren't going to get objective from the player base, and it's really a terrible decision to even pretend to want to.

On PC-NA the only "balanced" campaign is TF with a queue and poplocked all alliances and hence lag. Azura's is routinely night capped by DC, Haderus is routinely zerged by EP. I guess it's no different than when there were "buff" servers... but, the only place you are seeing a fair fight is TF.

If there is a solution, you aren't going to get it from 11 DC streamers that abuse the game and it's players and 1 guy who spreads it out. I don't really know or care who was "invited", objectivity is hard to come by in a faction based game and it's likely whoever it is that got the invites isn't going to give two craps about what really ails pvp at times. It's going to be "do I have the advantage on this server mentality"

With many, that think so highly of themselves and talk nonstop about their skill... you would figure they would look for the underdog. But, they don't... they look for home keep bonuses and emp.

Some day, maybe some of them will actually take a look at how it is to play on a server where you log on trying to establish a beachhead past your gate keeps with groups of defenders just waiting for a resource to light up. Many of these streamers are easy pickings types who want unfair fights under unfair circumstances.

Stamden

Really don't know why they even think they need to bring in streamers in the first place. There is hundreds of pages of feedback on PTS forums, and they simply don't listen to us.

Balamoor

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

I don't have a problem with who Zenimax invites, but they do need to find a better way to receive feedback from a larger demographic of the game, if they don't they are going to make their customers feel alienated and that's never good, especially in this fickle market.

Just my two cents take it as you will.

I would rather them take no feedback, you aren't going to get anything worthwhile out of streamers who are only invested in promoting themselves (and usually their faction).

ZOS needs to look at the data they have and make objective decisions.

You aren't going to get objective from the player base, and it's really a terrible decision to even pretend to want to.

On PC-NA the only "balanced" campaign is TF with a queue and poplocked all alliances and hence lag. Azura's is routinely night capped by DC, Haderus is routinely zerged by EP. I guess it's no different than when there were "buff" servers... but, the only place you are seeing a fair fight is TF.

If there is a solution, you aren't going to get it from 11 DC streamers that abuse the game and it's players and 1 guy who spreads it out. I don't really know or care who was "invited", objectivity is hard to come by in a faction based game and it's likely whoever it is that got the invites isn't going to give two craps about what really ails pvp at times. It's going to be "do I have the advantage on this server mentality"

With many, that think so highly of themselves and talk nonstop about their skill... you would figure they would look for the underdog. But, they don't... they look for home keep bonuses and emp.

Some day, maybe some of them will actually take a look at how it is to play on a server where you log on trying to establish a beachhead past your gate keeps with groups of defenders just waiting for a resource to light up. Many of these streamers are easy pickings types who want unfair fights under unfair circumstances.

You make some interesting points, but I can tell you from experience that going by the data alone never works, because you do need a human element in your feedback or you can get it horribly wrong despite the data. Factions seem to matter most to PVP players, there are a ton of people who will never PVP in the game, I honestly believe finding commonalities with a larger demographic as well as focused groups of end game and PVP players is the best answer here. I hope that Zenimax comes to that conclusion as well, all we can do is wait and see.

Xexpo

ok everybody deep breaths

I honestly don't understand why inviting people :

who day in and day out play the game,
who openly talk about mechanics & skills,
who live test new ideas and content,
who obviously know what they are talking about and have it recorded for the world to scrutinize,

to help the dev team work on something/anything is causing so many people to flip their shizz.

to use one of the analogies I saw in here somewhere,

No, I don't want the guy who hit the most homeruns to write the rules for the next season.
But, when the commissioner does decide he wants some advice on the rules, I would prefer he asked the guy with the homeruns over the random guy from the stands who wrote his complaints about baseball on the bathroom wall.

Shad0wfire99

I really don't understand the outrage, here. Did you guys expect them to invite random ***posters from the forums over knowledgeable players that provide them with free advertising on a daily basis? It really sounds a lot like most of you just don't like these particular guys, and are jealous that they're getting to do a thing that you aren't.

Rohamad_Ali

I think too much focus is put on the streamers that were invited . We know many other people that don't stream are attending . No one knows for sure how much influence this test group will even have on what ever they are testing . This entire topic is almost all speculative ...

Sigtric

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I think too much focus is put on the streamers that were invited . We know many other people that don't stream are attending . No one knows for sure how much influence this test group will even have on what ever they are testing . This entire topic is almost all speculative ...

This^

Everyone is saying "ZOS DOESN'T LISTEN, WHY LISTEN TO THEM?" but they are failing to listen to what Gina said about it.

It has little to do with streaming. They wanted theorycrafters to playtest something.

It happens that some of the better theorycrafters are also streamers.

And seriously, those big 3 ESO streamers spend so much time in this game, with its numbers, they'd be dumb not to invite them to the playtest, if they are bringing in players.

Stamden

The problem is with what they are doing is this: 99% of the problems in this game could be solved if Zenimax just listened to the community. There are hundreds of pages of feedback on the forums and the devs blatantly chose to ignore them.

Inviting pros/streamers/theorycrafters is not necessary at all. Once they fix the obvious problems with this game and balance, then inviting these people to work with the devs and optimize things makes sense.

ScooberSteve

Do you guys honestly think they invited them for player feedback? ZOS is just using them like they would a reporter. The streamers are just there to do a write up on the expasion and inform their fanbase. Its just for publicity. Everyone stop being Jelly

Hand_Bacon

Neighbor wrote: »

The problem is with what they are doing is this: 99% of the problems in this game could be solved if Zenimax just listened to the community. There are hundreds of pages of feedback on the forums and the devs blatantly chose to ignore them.

I get what you're trying to say, but if there was a position that had to focus on sifting through the utter BS and drivel that people suggest, let alone try and decipher some, it would have a high suicide rate. How much would you want in compensation to sit there for hours a day and hammer your jewels?

rfennell_ESO

Balamoor wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

I don't have a problem with who Zenimax invites, but they do need to find a better way to receive feedback from a larger demographic of the game, if they don't they are going to make their customers feel alienated and that's never good, especially in this fickle market.

Just my two cents take it as you will.

I would rather them take no feedback, you aren't going to get anything worthwhile out of streamers who are only invested in promoting themselves (and usually their faction).

ZOS needs to look at the data they have and make objective decisions.

You aren't going to get objective from the player base, and it's really a terrible decision to even pretend to want to.

On PC-NA the only "balanced" campaign is TF with a queue and poplocked all alliances and hence lag. Azura's is routinely night capped by DC, Haderus is routinely zerged by EP. I guess it's no different than when there were "buff" servers... but, the only place you are seeing a fair fight is TF.

If there is a solution, you aren't going to get it from 11 DC streamers that abuse the game and it's players and 1 guy who spreads it out. I don't really know or care who was "invited", objectivity is hard to come by in a faction based game and it's likely whoever it is that got the invites isn't going to give two craps about what really ails pvp at times. It's going to be "do I have the advantage on this server mentality"

With many, that think so highly of themselves and talk nonstop about their skill... you would figure they would look for the underdog. But, they don't... they look for home keep bonuses and emp.

Some day, maybe some of them will actually take a look at how it is to play on a server where you log on trying to establish a beachhead past your gate keeps with groups of defenders just waiting for a resource to light up. Many of these streamers are easy pickings types who want unfair fights under unfair circumstances.

You make some interesting points, but I can tell you from experience that going by the data alone never works, because you do need a human element in your feedback or you can get it horribly wrong despite the data. Factions seem to matter most to PVP players, there are a ton of people who will never PVP in the game, I honestly believe finding commonalities with a larger demographic as well as focused groups of end game and PVP players is the best answer here. I hope that Zenimax comes to that conclusion as well, all we can do is wait and see.

They literally invited the guy who was saying that Stamina Sorcerers were under powered and enough wasn't done to address the issues a week before they patched them into overpowered.

This is what a lack of objectivity brings... and being very few of us can be objective (if any at all), all they have is data and that's a better route than listening to people that are biased.

Paraflex

Maybe they are asking for help on the new starter zone for the warden class because they have great insight. We don't know all the details of this meeting lots of negative speculation.