WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

Uviryth

As much as I like watching Deltia, I actually have to agree with some of the OPs points.
Deltias content is catered to the Top 1% in organized, achievementdriven guilds and for people with much time and a lot of ressources. The 99% rest of us doesnt really get anything out of his videos except entertainment.

idk

willlienellson wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
Are you for real?

Earlier tonight you got so angry that I quoted just a section of your comment, but you just quoted 35 words to lecture me about not keeping on the point of my OP.....while cutting out 146 words of the same post that was extremely on point with the purpose of the OP.

I can't deal with you man. I just can't. You're just trolling and baiting.

@willlienellson

You really need work in the reading comprehension.

Maybe go back to and look at my reply again. I bet you can figure it out what you just said is very inaccurate.

Thanks again

PS: you have derailed your own thread by making it more you against everyone that disagrees with you by being combative with them

If you start a thread your choosing to have a conversation and do not expect everyone to agree with you.

Shad0wfire99

lul

roigseguib16_ESO

It's impossible to determine who is representative of the playerbase.
To be fair, the big chunk of ESO players are not hardcore PvPers nor dedicated raiders; they don't care wether viper procs for 5k or for 3k, nor if the duration of this skill or that DoT is 8 or 9 seconds. The majority of players of this game are casuals who care much more about the look of a map, the immersion of a dungeon or the accent of NPCs.
It's time we accept that this game doesn't live thanks to that 5-10% of really dedicated players but thanks to casuals.

cpuScientist

Uviryth wrote: »

As much as I like watching Deltia, I actually have to agree with some of the OPs points.
Deltias content is catered to the Top 1% in organized, achievementdriven guilds and for people with much time and a lot of ressources. The 99% rest of us doesnt really get anything out of his videos except entertainment.

Oh yeah for sure I mean those op builds he posts with no monster helms and easy to get sets. Like his recent Templar PvE build and VMA run where he uses such a gimped setup. Totes man that guy caters to the best of the best. Always talking about getting max DPS in trials and all that. Lololololol deltia is a guy who spends 35 minutes explaining every single detail that definitely every top player knows and most others know. His guides are literally there for new players and inexperienced players. I'm no big 'fan' but lol c'mon.

The issue the fake Willie Nelson has is simple, he doesn't want ZOS to take these players word and feedback over everyone else's and that's fair. He has a good point if that were the case but it's painstakingly obvious it's not. ZOS obviously isn't doing this.

ZOS brought them there to show off the new content so they could then see oh the game is going to still be profitable, and so they can hype up their fanbases. It's called advertisement.

Furthermore ZOS does need to take the advice of top players for PvE and PvP. And take the advice from the pts and from the forums. No reason not to take in as much advice as you can when making a decision.

[snip] If you had a life issue and it was posted on Facebook, and many people posted how they think you should handle it, but then a few names you recognize as being especially knowledgeable on the situation also offered help. You might say I've read through these comments and have some good suggestions let me see what these that I recognize have to think so you PM them here them out have a good discussion with the. Now you have all this feedback from knowledgeable people from the masses and can make an educated move going forward.

[edited to remove bait]

Katahdin

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

It's not like those streamers, especially Deltia, are just as aware--if not more--of the issues and shortcomings in ESO.

I guess OP wants ZOS to listen to someone else.

Seems to me that the OP is mad and jealous that he wasn't invited.

Shad0wfire99

Uviryth wrote: »

As much as I like watching Deltia, I actually have to agree with some of the OPs points.
Deltias content is catered to the Top 1% in organized, achievementdriven guilds and for people with much time and a lot of ressources. The 99% rest of us doesnt really get anything out of his videos except entertainment.

Deltia's content is much more noob-friendly than that. You stop getting anything out of his vids after you've been playing a while.

cpuScientist

Now just because your advice or the advice of many is not immediately or ever taken I to account. Such as going back to AOE flames of oblivion doesn't mean they did not listen and consider. They just feel they know better cause they have testing facilities and are paid to do so. I don't agree with everything they do sure and will talk crap about some decisions. But if they listen to me I would probably make the game easier for whatever class I'm playing that week lol

Rikumaru

ZOS balances around the top 1%? Then tell me why they have nerfed solo play every patch from 1.7 (IC)? This game is getting more casual friendly which does not represent the top 1%.

cpuScientist

Rikumaru wrote: »

ZOS balances around the top 1%? Then tell me why they have nerfed solo play every patch from 1.7 (IC)? This game is getting more casual friendly which does not represent the top 1%.

Shhhhhh the obvious should not be pointed out....

Ron_Burgundy_79

roigseguib16_ESO wrote: »

It's impossible to determine who is representative of the playerbase.
To be fair, the big chunk of ESO players are not hardcore PvPers nor dedicated raiders; they don't care wether viper procs for 5k or for 3k, nor if the duration of this skill or that DoT is 8 or 9 seconds. The majority of players of this game are casuals who care much more about the look of a map, the immersion of a dungeon or the accent of NPCs.
It's time we accept that this game doesn't live thanks to that 5-10% of really dedicated players but thanks to casuals.

And that's why pvp is in such a terrible state. Throw on a couple of proc sets and anyone can compete at a high level. No skill required.

Balamoor

roigseguib16_ESO wrote: »

It's impossible to determine who is representative of the playerbase.
To be fair, the big chunk of ESO players are not hardcore PvPers nor dedicated raiders; they don't care wether viper procs for 5k or for 3k, nor if the duration of this skill or that DoT is 8 or 9 seconds. The majority of players of this game are casuals who care much more about the look of a map, the immersion of a dungeon or the accent of NPCs.
It's time we accept that this game doesn't live thanks to that 5-10% of really dedicated players but thanks to casuals.

Great point and I agree

And you know what? There isn't anything wrong with that. There are like a kagillion MMO's that are hardcore PVP, or Hardcore raiding...heck just look at the games in beta right now...you can't sling a dead rat without hitting three that are advertised as Hardcore PVP or a hearken back to the classic days of MMo's. Iv'e haven't seen seen a single TES RPG since Daggerfall that has been hardcore, if this is the game that causal players flock to (and it is) the l33t players should rejoice that they will be playing this instead of <insert Harcore MMO Here>

You know it's weird.....The in game community of ESO is so different from the forum community I have played on PC PS4 both NA and EU mega servers, and I watched my son play on XB1. ESO players are (and I'm not talking about random pug experiences they always suck) for the most part laid back, welcoming and non judgmental. ESO forum posters are snarky, harsh contemptuous and overbearing..... It's a messed up dichotomy. I also think it's why the devs have minimal interaction with forum goers. I would like to see the forums attract more positive interaction and honest constructive criticism, but League of Legends has a better chance to clean up it's image and that's sad.

Ron_Burgundy_79

Rikumaru wrote: »

ZOS balances around the top 1%? Then tell me why they have nerfed solo play every patch from 1.7 (IC)? This game is getting more casual friendly which does not represent the top 1%.

Hell, they completely eliminated one of the classes from solo play with the blazing spear nerf. Play the way you want as long as it doesn't include solo pvp.

cpuScientist

I love when people start throwing out percentages to fit their nonsense. Only like 5% do this and 10% use that.

You know who has the actual numbers and thus make the actual decisions... The devs.

DaveMoeDee

One reason to meet with streamers is to make them happy so they say positive things while streaming.

Arthg

I find the accusations of jealousy or condescension formulated towards the OP completely unjustified and counter-productive.

I can understand why ZOS invited the top-streamers (a reward for the free advertisement they provide, a simple channel of communication, overall excellent knowledge of the game), but the OP has compelling arguments.

How many consensual balances, how many reasonable improvements have been suggested, how many game-crippling bugs have been reported in the feedback threads - only to be consistently, systematically ignored?

To take an example: while this PR thing is going on with top-streamers, a lot of players are just currently invisible in Cyrodiil - the day after a long-awaited patch, and even though it had been reported many times in those feedback threads...

Now how exactly is having a friendly chat with top-streamers going to make this sort of unacceptable clusturfeck impossible in the future? Wouldn't pushing with the OP for more attention to forum feedback actually help prevent this?

Well done, OP, thanks a lot for your efforts - really.

Gedalya

Haters gonna hate. I for one like some of the people mentioned here like Deltia; great website and great content.

Balamoor

cpuScientist wrote: »

I love when people start throwing out percentages to fit their nonsense. Only like 5% do this and 10% use that.

You know who has the actual numbers and thus make the actual decisions... The devs.

True and so far developers have been basically steering the game to a casual core audience, also you really don't have many raiding guilds left, I was a officer in a very large EQ and WoW raiding guild, folks will still raid and do hardcore PVP but not nearly at the numbers they did, so I took a chill pill and accepted the fact the hobby is evolving most folks in my guild now craft/quest and casually do dungeon runs nothing super serious and most of the folks I run into in the game feel the same way.

Derra

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Deltia wrote: »

With all that's going on in the world and you're worried about this? Jealous man, smh.

@Deltia

Come on man. I agree with most of what @willlienellson has said, and my agreement with him has nothing to do with jealousy.

If a game wants to see improved player satisfaction and improved player retention - because both are required for sustainable income growth - then it needs to listen to more than the top 1%, the top 5% or even the top 25% of players.

Let me clue you in to something. You are not there because they think you are a great player, even though you may be. You are there because you have 110,000+ followers on youtube.

All The Best

You know whats ironic? The bottom 90% of the playerbase only find the game unenjoyable in terms of balance sometimes because of the top 10%.
The strictly logic choice would be to get rid of the top 10%.

I´d rather have the top 10% discuss balance (because they actually understand what they´re talking about most of the time) than somebody who does not care or has no insight to mechanics.

Now you might be inclined to compare the game to the real world where the top 10% running the country can be pretty problematic - but contrary to that in a game everyone has equal chances.



@willlienellson can you give an example where you think the opinions on balance of our youtube heros are unfavorable for the average player?

kuro-dono

this game needs to separate completely and totally casuals from elites. CASUALS ONLY TRIALS. CASUALS ONLY PVP --- ELITES ONLY PVP, ELITES ONLY TRIALS. only then some sort of peace may land.

casual or elite pve? > pve> your max mitigation/dps/heal

casual or elite pvp?> kills/death ratio, time to kill ratio, accuracy, survivality.

something along those. and ITS forced. nomore elites farming n00bs and making videos of themself looking cool while they whack 20 ppl in flash, about time elites play only vs elites.

nomore casuals wasting elites time soloing, or trioing or whatevering dungeon at ultraspeed rate.

simple, and way less crying, you wanna be elite? become elite. you wanna farm? become godlike and farm them elites. wannabe tourist? be tourist and enjoy the game.

Darkestnght

I do not want ESO streamers representing me.I play nothing like them and could care a less about their input. Just my opinion. I personal think it is all for show and will not prove to be productive to a player like me at all.

Lieblingsjunge

Let me get this straight:
1) You complain when Zeni does *not* include the playerbase.
2) You complain when Zeni *does* include the playerbase.

Whether you like it or not: Streamers & Poster-boys are a part of the playerbase and they experience the game as well. I'm sorry if you've had issues with people not attacking friends, but that's more out of player respect than out of friendship.
Most of the streamers are playing small-scale or solo-PvP, so naturally they do not fight other Solo-PvPers, simply 'cus of respect. 1vX can *not* happen if the opposing player is good. So it's a consensus that you simply do not attack other 1vX-players, because you know that it's few of them, and as soon as it's a good player involved in the X, the 1 is pretty screwed.

Let me turn your argument around: If not the streamers & poster-boys, then who else should represent the community? Because it looks like, from all the Z-marked threads, that Zeni is active on their forums.
The people you say that "live" the game, call it no-lifing if you want, they know the end-game much better than a guy who started the game 2 weeks ago and power-levelled to 50 and joined Cyrodiil immediately after, but found his forum-account.

I don't know. I would rather believe the feedback from someone who's "skilled"(Lack of another word, don't shoot me) at the game, than from someone who barely knows left & right in the World of Tamriel.

Sinthrax

I don't think it matters either way. They going to do what they want.

Hell, some of the streamers are the biggest crybabies in the game. Some have also been banned for cheating. Although, that was all just a misunderstanding....

MopeyHat

Does anyone at ZOS do data analysis, I wonder?

That statistic with the 3% of players having all inventory upgrades and 50% having none concerned me. Did they even look at say, how long have those players been playing? How much of their inventory was full?

Makes it seem like they cited a number to placate us about their choice rather than using the statistics to understand player behavior and predict opportunity.

altemriel

I would say that the streamers who post tons of build videos know the best about the issues/bugs/glitches/exploits

Balamoor

MopeyHat wrote: »

Does anyone at ZOS do data analysis, I wonder?

That statistic with the 3% of players having all inventory upgrades and 50% having none concerned me. Did they even look at say, how long have those players been playing? How much of their inventory was full?

Makes it seem like they cited a number to placate us about their choice rather than using the statistics to understand player behavior and predict opportunity.

It's hard to find people that specialize in metrics in the video game industry, SEO specialist data analyst, and marketing analytics are all hard positions to fill because game developers usually pay less and work longer hours than other companies. You might see recent grads in these positions, but they leave for more pay/better benefits less hours with enterprise companies as soon as they can. My entire time at TS2 veteran C++ programmers and any type of analyst were the hardest positions to fill.

MopeyHat

Balamoor wrote: »

MopeyHat wrote: »

Does anyone at ZOS do data analysis, I wonder?

That statistic with the 3% of players having all inventory upgrades and 50% having none concerned me. Did they even look at say, how long have those players been playing? How much of their inventory was full?

Makes it seem like they cited a number to placate us about their choice rather than using the statistics to understand player behavior and predict opportunity.

It's hard to find people that specialize in metrics in the video game industry, SEO specialist data analyst, and marketing analytics are all hard positions to fill because game developers usually pay less and work longer hours than other companies. You might see recent grads in these positions, but they leave for more pay/better benefits less hours with enterprise companies as soon as they can. My entire time at TS2 veteran C++ programmers and any type of analyst were the hardest positions to fill.

I agree, but you don't really need a specialist for some of this stuff. A couple smart tools will tell you way more about the player base than the underwhelming streamers mentioned here. Fortunately I'm under the impression they decided to take more than just them.

rfennell_ESO

The main issue with inviting popular streamers is that popular streamers are also very far removed from the base.

They have far more time playing than others and min/max at a level not normally seen. Like if you play a stamina class, who really has the time to level up destruction staff just to use the ultimate? The streamers do, because they don't do much else past play games... I know they claim otherwise, and claims are easy to make... but math is a thing and when you divide a day of 24 hours into 6-8 of streaming + anything else you are left with needing a longer day.

Not going to name name's as that always yields a warning or a suspension... but one of the "well known" streamers is not only a faction fanboy, but he's pretty nasty in game. His showcase is abusing mechanics and doing nothing but attack one faction with a zerg he claims isn't there.

It's insulting to have to be represented by players of one faction who all abuse the hell out of the game.

You can just imagine the drivel they spew to devs if given the opportunity. It's not going to be constructive or meaningful.

Just look at the streamers that do nothing but follow the servers giving them the most buffs due to server alignment. They only play where they have an advantage and then they exploit on top of that. That's who ZOS picks to represent players?

Sypher is the only reasonable one and plays multiple faction and doesn't (for the most part, or as far as I know) really abuse the game.

It's a 3 faction game and one faction is over-represented with the streamers, because they need to play with an advantage... because without it.. they aren't very good.

DHale

You lost me at powercreep. There is nothing wrong with it we have now unlocked 600 cp of the 3600 and have 160 gear. This is a game about power creep. I have leveled when vet levels were 7 million Xp or more. Btw I was more powerful at veteran level five when the game started than I am now.

FloppyTouch

Balamoor wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Who cares game is already in the poop anything they add won't take away or help

Yeah that's why it keeps winning mmo of the year and is packed all the time, and that's why the dev team (if you look at the jobs board is still expanding exponentially) and that's why it gets such favorable press from most legitimate news sites.

But the oracle of all gaming knowledge FloppyTouch says it is poop so poop it must be.

Ur fanboy/girl is showing chill fam. point of that post was to say the dev are going to do what ever they want to do no matter what. they could read this forums and see the point of view of the players. A few people that stream not going to change anything so why freak out like the OP is.