Why Champion System will Kill the game if it's implemented as is
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TehMagnus
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First of all let's think about why the Champion System was implemented as a substitute to VR system.
VR system equals vertical progression in it's purest form:
Where there is a beginning and an end. When you level in VR system, you have 2 things to worry about: your character level and your skills level. Once you have your character and your skills at max level, you are effectively on the same level as any player in the game, no matter how many more hours of gaming he has put into the game. The only thing that differentiates players at this point is: Gear, Skill and the selection of skills you put in your bar.
Gear is virtually meaningless. You need it to be on top and have cookie cutter builds but anyone with crafted gear can finish virtually all the content in the game and the grind for gear is quite easy when you compare it to games like Lineage 2 where you had to kill thousands of mobs that had a 0,000001% chance of dropping the sword you wanted.
Skill, armor and Skill selection/interaction is where the differences are and where the diversity in the current system is not enough. There aren't many skills and the best combinations of skills with the current system have already been found. As per armors, there is in fact a LOT of diversity in the game (which is typical of horizontal progression) but they are far from equal and there are too few "OP" armor sets in the game (whereas horizontal progression advocates for a huge number of armor sets available with a lot of different abilities without one being more op than the others).
If you look at the current VR system, all you need to be in the "top tier" of players, is enough time to reach cap and level up skills, a couple of successful trial runs to get your armor (which even for slow players take about 2 months max), then improve your own personal skill.
One of the problems with this system that made many people complain is the increase of Veteran Ranks and the long time it takes to get them unless you're grinding. Players who felt they finally had finished the game and where at the top level, had to level 2 or 4 extra levels to get a couple hundred HP/MGK/STM and be once again on top. I must admit I never understood those complains since 4 levels is nothing if you compare them to games that increase the cap from level 50 to 60, 75, 80, 90, 100, 120 over time as new content comes. One or Two levels with each new zone seemed like a nice compromise to feel like my character was slowly evolving and had new challenges to take on but also left room for many many many new zones since each zone increased the cap by such a small amount.
So VR where removed because people didn't like them. People didn't like them (yes not everybody, but at least this is what I saw the most in the complain threads on the forums) because : In order to have the feeling of completion that comes with being at max level (with all the perks and attribute gains that come with being max level) they had to spend a couple of weeks (for the slower guys actually trying) to level up.
ZOS implements the Champion System and wants to make you think it's Horizontal progression:
Sure, you reach "max level" and then you "expand your character while staying at the same level".
But it actually isn't. Champion system is the worst kind of vertical progression: It's an endless grind with steps and the reason for this is the passives that you gain after investing X points in a given tree.
In theory, you need invest 30 - 75 - 120 points in one tree to get the good bonuses (which means you need 3x as many points since you can't invest all your points in the same constellation) such as 12% wep or spell damage crit, HP restoration when getting hit by a critical attack, restore X magicka to you & your party when killing an enemy (AOE party much?), gain a damage shield when blocking, etc etc etc. Thing is, it's unlikely that people will just rush those bonuses since the first points are the ones giving the most advantages and there are some nice bonuses in many places that one should aim for right away thus making you waste even more time and CP before enjoying them. Still, people will get there eventually and once they do, the increase of survivability/DPS/Healing will be noticeable for the player and make him more powerfull than the other players who haven't unlocked those passives.
If you compare to what you currently have which is 14 extra levels after level 50, then you end up with hundreds of levels worth of experience with huge bonuses every ~360 CP which at current rate of ~4h per CP (if you take into account the people who claim it took them 2h and those who said they didn't gain a CP after 6h of playing content) is equivalent to 360*4= 1440 hours of play which divided by 24 gives us 60 days of non stop gaming.
You where complaining because you had 2 or 4 levels difference with someone? You thought that was actually a gap between players?
Try playing a game where the progression is not only extremely long and slow, but has also steps that immediately give you huge boosts over other players that can't catch up to you in mater of days but months. Imagine a player starting to play 6 months after the CP system has been implemented that tries to PVP against other players when he reaches level 50 (supposedly cap), imagine someone that starts the game, levels up to 50 and tries to get into competitive end game raids, he will never be able to catch up nor be as strong as players who have 600+ CP and many useful passives unlocked which means they will, forever be, locked out of any accomplishment in the game or any PVP leaderboard unless they become zombies and play 24/7.
The whole problem as others have stated before me is that the system is based on XP this is what makes a system that looks like horizontal progression actually feel like a huge vertical progression grindfest.[/b]
I can already see the QQ posts of casual players complaining because they are unable, no matter how much skill they have, to compete against people with OP passives or OP damage, I can already see the QQ posts of new players when they come to realize that no matter how hard they try or how much time they invest in the game, they will never have characters as good as players who have been playing since the beginning of the system.
And I can also see the QQ rage/ I quit posts when ZOS realizes their mistake in this system and either decreases the XP needed to gain CP or redoes the whole constellations or implements some kind of CP boost you can buy with crowns or just moves back to a regular leveling system (which would be the smartest choice given the other options).
Don't get me wrong, I don't like Horizontal progression, I like vertical progression and I'll have my CP and my OP bonuses, but what good is it to be OP in a game that no new players will want to play and where many current players will quit when they see the huge grind they have to partake in to stay even competitive compared to other players?
@ZOS, If you want to know what Horizontal progression really is and try to implement it, here is a post that describes it quite well http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really
Worst part is I don't even like the systems explained in that post, to me, the best thing in a game is per example knowing there is a new shiny armor that will increase my strength and that I have to obtain it through a challenge, still real horizontal progression beats endless vertical progression grinds, that's what Korean MMOs are for and your public is not Korean and it mostly doesn't like endless grinds.
TLDR and to conclude:
The depth of the Champion system options and possibilities is quite nice and typical of horizontal progression many casuals crave, but the implementation and the fact that it's based on XP will create huge gaps between players in strength and utility and this difference will be the most noticeable at early levels which are the ones that matter most to keep an audience hooked and willing to play the game. If the passives where gained by clearing in game content (quests, trials, arena, PVP levels) instead of just earning XP as it is suggested in the link I shared above, then it would be horizontal progression and it wouldn't feel like a grind to players who would probably enjoy the game and taking onto challenges in order to unlock the nice passives, this would also create a sense of community and guilds dedicated to help players gain these passives thus leading people to play together instead of just looking for the best way to optimize CP grind and just do that over and over and over again with the same group of people.
Problem is, you'd actually need playable content past end game to implement such as system and this is something this game lacks a LOT (then again, since game stops at level 50, you got all of Caldwell's silver & gold to work with now).
Unless you're willing to review the way CP is earned by players to allow them to get the passives faster thus allowing people to reduce the gaps between players in a timely manner, I predict this system in the short run will fail and sadly, so will the game.
TLDR 2:
Edited by TehMagnus on February 5, 2015 10:38AM VR system equals vertical progression in it's purest form:
Where there is a beginning and an end. When you level in VR system, you have 2 things to worry about: your character level and your skills level. Once you have your character and your skills at max level, you are effectively on the same level as any player in the game, no matter how many more hours of gaming he has put into the game. The only thing that differentiates players at this point is: Gear, Skill and the selection of skills you put in your bar.
Gear is virtually meaningless. You need it to be on top and have cookie cutter builds but anyone with crafted gear can finish virtually all the content in the game and the grind for gear is quite easy when you compare it to games like Lineage 2 where you had to kill thousands of mobs that had a 0,000001% chance of dropping the sword you wanted.
Skill, armor and Skill selection/interaction is where the differences are and where the diversity in the current system is not enough. There aren't many skills and the best combinations of skills with the current system have already been found. As per armors, there is in fact a LOT of diversity in the game (which is typical of horizontal progression) but they are far from equal and there are too few "OP" armor sets in the game (whereas horizontal progression advocates for a huge number of armor sets available with a lot of different abilities without one being more op than the others).
If you look at the current VR system, all you need to be in the "top tier" of players, is enough time to reach cap and level up skills, a couple of successful trial runs to get your armor (which even for slow players take about 2 months max), then improve your own personal skill.
One of the problems with this system that made many people complain is the increase of Veteran Ranks and the long time it takes to get them unless you're grinding. Players who felt they finally had finished the game and where at the top level, had to level 2 or 4 extra levels to get a couple hundred HP/MGK/STM and be once again on top. I must admit I never understood those complains since 4 levels is nothing if you compare them to games that increase the cap from level 50 to 60, 75, 80, 90, 100, 120 over time as new content comes. One or Two levels with each new zone seemed like a nice compromise to feel like my character was slowly evolving and had new challenges to take on but also left room for many many many new zones since each zone increased the cap by such a small amount.
So VR where removed because people didn't like them. People didn't like them (yes not everybody, but at least this is what I saw the most in the complain threads on the forums) because : In order to have the feeling of completion that comes with being at max level (with all the perks and attribute gains that come with being max level) they had to spend a couple of weeks (for the slower guys actually trying) to level up.
ZOS implements the Champion System and wants to make you think it's Horizontal progression:
Sure, you reach "max level" and then you "expand your character while staying at the same level".
But it actually isn't. Champion system is the worst kind of vertical progression: It's an endless grind with steps and the reason for this is the passives that you gain after investing X points in a given tree.
In theory, you need invest 30 - 75 - 120 points in one tree to get the good bonuses (which means you need 3x as many points since you can't invest all your points in the same constellation) such as 12% wep or spell damage crit, HP restoration when getting hit by a critical attack, restore X magicka to you & your party when killing an enemy (AOE party much?), gain a damage shield when blocking, etc etc etc. Thing is, it's unlikely that people will just rush those bonuses since the first points are the ones giving the most advantages and there are some nice bonuses in many places that one should aim for right away thus making you waste even more time and CP before enjoying them. Still, people will get there eventually and once they do, the increase of survivability/DPS/Healing will be noticeable for the player and make him more powerfull than the other players who haven't unlocked those passives.
If you compare to what you currently have which is 14 extra levels after level 50, then you end up with hundreds of levels worth of experience with huge bonuses every ~360 CP which at current rate of ~4h per CP (if you take into account the people who claim it took them 2h and those who said they didn't gain a CP after 6h of playing content) is equivalent to 360*4= 1440 hours of play which divided by 24 gives us 60 days of non stop gaming.
You where complaining because you had 2 or 4 levels difference with someone? You thought that was actually a gap between players?
Try playing a game where the progression is not only extremely long and slow, but has also steps that immediately give you huge boosts over other players that can't catch up to you in mater of days but months. Imagine a player starting to play 6 months after the CP system has been implemented that tries to PVP against other players when he reaches level 50 (supposedly cap), imagine someone that starts the game, levels up to 50 and tries to get into competitive end game raids, he will never be able to catch up nor be as strong as players who have 600+ CP and many useful passives unlocked which means they will, forever be, locked out of any accomplishment in the game or any PVP leaderboard unless they become zombies and play 24/7.
The whole problem as others have stated before me is that the system is based on XP this is what makes a system that looks like horizontal progression actually feel like a huge vertical progression grindfest.[/b]
I can already see the QQ posts of casual players complaining because they are unable, no matter how much skill they have, to compete against people with OP passives or OP damage, I can already see the QQ posts of new players when they come to realize that no matter how hard they try or how much time they invest in the game, they will never have characters as good as players who have been playing since the beginning of the system.
And I can also see the QQ rage/ I quit posts when ZOS realizes their mistake in this system and either decreases the XP needed to gain CP or redoes the whole constellations or implements some kind of CP boost you can buy with crowns or just moves back to a regular leveling system (which would be the smartest choice given the other options).
Don't get me wrong, I don't like Horizontal progression, I like vertical progression and I'll have my CP and my OP bonuses, but what good is it to be OP in a game that no new players will want to play and where many current players will quit when they see the huge grind they have to partake in to stay even competitive compared to other players?
@ZOS, If you want to know what Horizontal progression really is and try to implement it, here is a post that describes it quite well http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really
Worst part is I don't even like the systems explained in that post, to me, the best thing in a game is per example knowing there is a new shiny armor that will increase my strength and that I have to obtain it through a challenge, still real horizontal progression beats endless vertical progression grinds, that's what Korean MMOs are for and your public is not Korean and it mostly doesn't like endless grinds.
TLDR and to conclude:
The depth of the Champion system options and possibilities is quite nice and typical of horizontal progression many casuals crave, but the implementation and the fact that it's based on XP will create huge gaps between players in strength and utility and this difference will be the most noticeable at early levels which are the ones that matter most to keep an audience hooked and willing to play the game. If the passives where gained by clearing in game content (quests, trials, arena, PVP levels) instead of just earning XP as it is suggested in the link I shared above, then it would be horizontal progression and it wouldn't feel like a grind to players who would probably enjoy the game and taking onto challenges in order to unlock the nice passives, this would also create a sense of community and guilds dedicated to help players gain these passives thus leading people to play together instead of just looking for the best way to optimize CP grind and just do that over and over and over again with the same group of people.
Problem is, you'd actually need playable content past end game to implement such as system and this is something this game lacks a LOT (then again, since game stops at level 50, you got all of Caldwell's silver & gold to work with now).
Unless you're willing to review the way CP is earned by players to allow them to get the passives faster thus allowing people to reduce the gaps between players in a timely manner, I predict this system in the short run will fail and sadly, so will the game.
TLDR 2:
@OP, is the short version of your post that the attempt to prevent the gap between players from growing too large by applying diminishing returns for CP points is eclipsed by the power of the passives it unlocks, which create a large gap between "haves" and the "have nots"?
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Berinima✭✭✭Amazing post! This is more or less what I am concluding here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149672/1-6-champion-system-again-official-forum-edition
Unfortunately, the system is already dividing the community. There is this group of people that suspect the system to cause severe problems (myself included) and the other half that either blindlessly support the system based on some pipedream of all the benefits the system COULD provide without actually having tried it or people that just like to grind and are hoping that they get a hudge edge over new players by doing so.
As always, ZOS had some great ideas. But halfway through the implementation they stumble and fall. How the system is in shape on the PTS it's sloppy and it's flawed. The only hope I am having is that with enough feedback ZOS is able to prevent the disaster from happening. A more realistic approach however would be assuming that they just don't.Edited by Berinima on February 3, 2015 10:21AM16 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wolfsspinne wrote: »Even the summary is TL;DR
But don't mind you're wrong anyway.
Up until now all my predictions have been proven true
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/118363/make-pve-lvl-1-50-subscription-free-please <= Coming to you with 1.7
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/120213/is-it-just-me-that-feels-im-beta-testing-console-release-and-paying-to-do-so <= Coming to you since game release.
I guess once again, nobody will listen, and in 1year ZOS will be changing the whole system again for F2P / P2W and I'll link this post saying: I told you so. Thing is, I'd really really rather not have to do that.
Edited by TehMagnus on February 3, 2015 10:23AM24 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Amazing post! This is more or less what I am concluding here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149672/1-6-champion-system-again-official-forum-edition
Unfortunately, the system is already dividing the community. There is this group of people that suspect the system to cause severe problems (myself included) and the other half that either blindlessly support the system based on some pipedream of all the benefits the system COULD provide without actually having tried it or people that just like to grind and are hoping that they get a hudge edge over new players by doing so.
As always, ZOS had some great ideas. But halfway through the implementation they stumble and fall. How the system is in shape on the PTS it's sloppy and it's flawed. The only hope I am having is that with enough feedback ZOS is able to prevent the disaster from happening. A more realistic approach however would be assuming that they just don't.
Yep, the CP system is really a great idea, the whole constellations and trees promises a lot of build diversification and when people get lots of CP, you'll see OP hybrid builds, but the rate at which they are earned, at least as is in PTS atm, is really really too slow and will create tiers based on CP with huge power gaps between players which will make many rage quit or not even bother trying.
VR where removed because of those same people and it's being replaced by something they will hate even more.
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Berinima✭✭✭Wolfsspinne wrote: »Even the summary is TL;DR
But don't mind you're wrong anyway.Unfortunately, the system is already dividing the community. There is this group of people that suspect the system to cause severe problems (myself included) and the other half that either blindlessly support the system based on some pipedream of all the benefits the system COULD provide without actually having tried it or people that just like to grind and are hoping that they get a hudge edge over new players by doing so.
Q.E.D.
This is why it also can be called "Chump" System.
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Curragraigue✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't see predictions in either of those opening posts that you linked. Unless you mean the titles are the predictions. If so then neither of those were right.
They are removing the sub and allowing people to play everything not just PvE And not just lvl 1-50. You got what you paid for it was not a paid beta test.PUG Life - the true test of your skill
18 characters, 17 max level, at least 1 Stam and 1 Mag of every class, 1 of every race and 1200+ CP
Tanked to Undaunted 9+ Mag and Stam of every class using Group Finder for 90+% of the Vet Dungeon runs14 -
Brittany_Joy✭✭✭✭
You're getting ahead of yourself. ZOS has to be very silly to go F2P after B2P. Since the B2P model eliminates the F2P model. If they want more players they will just have a sale on the box price for 75% off like GW2.
Up until now all my predictions have been proven true
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/118363/make-pve-lvl-1-50-subscription-free-please <= Coming to you with 1.7
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/120213/is-it-just-me-that-feels-im-beta-testing-console-release-and-paying-to-do-so <= Coming to you since game release.
I guess once again, nobody will listen, and in 1year ZOS will be changing the whole system again for F2P / P2W and I'll link this post saying: I told you so. Thing is, I'd really really rather not have to do that.
ZOS said they would never go F2P but they never said anything about B2P, so they got us there.
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Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭
so i really needed to do a detailed breakdown of the stats since i guess people where to lazy to go look themselves and keep calling me a liar. When i took these multipliers on the live server i had all pvp bonuses with no food active...and i had food active on the pts...i didnt realise that at the time. that being condisered...the nerfs to health and stam are actually worse if you take into account i had the food active on the pts. thegear is the same on both servers. so here are the numbers :
Health 7.10
Magic 8.27
Stam 9.34
Spell damage 12.9
Spell resist 7.51
Magic regen 7.44
Health regen 8.3
Stam regen 8.24
Weapon dmg 9.66
Armor 7.33
crit for both took nerfs even though the values are not showing correctly.
i perceive all these stats as being nerfed except the spell damage which went up. Also i should tell you i had no points in any of the cp areas just to try and get the most clean comparison. I encourage you guys to discuss these numbers.Edited by Joejudas on February 3, 2015 10:34AM8 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Unfortunately, the system is already dividing the community. There is this group of people that suspect the system to cause severe problems (myself included) and the other half that either blindlessly support the system based on some pipedream of all the benefits the system COULD provide without actually having tried it or people that just like to grind and are hoping that they get a hudge edge over new players by doing so.
Yeah, I agree. It is dividing the community.
I also am having doubts about it, I suspect it will be a long grind to get the VR characters back to where they should be, it seems to be slight increases per Champion Point (CP), and it will take ages to get CPs.
I disagree with OP about it rendering gear irrelevant, from what I understand the champion system boosts base stats and gear values, meaning you need both the best gear and the CPs to make it work.
But I suspect it will be a long grind.People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Brittany_Joy wrote: »You're getting ahead of yourself. ZOS has to be very silly to go F2P after B2P. Since the B2P model eliminates the F2P model. If they want more players they will just have a sale on the box price for 75% off like GW2.
ZOS said they would never go F2P but they never said anything about B2P, so they got us there.
It's B2P because you have console release and that's a couple millions copies you can potentially sell and it would be *** to have a F2P model when you can make people buy the game during the launch euphoria. After the initial hype is gone, MMO players realize the UI is unbearable on consoles and quit, and they'l have to change their model because of the QQ in forums regarding disparities brought by Champion System, the game will likely go F2P/P2W in a last desperate attempts to make a couple extra bucks from the crown store before closing down, since no more boxes will be sold (or it will be sold at a ridiculous price like 10$ which is just like F2P)
Edit: Of course, if they fix the issues with the evolution in the Champion system, game could turn out awesomeeeEdited by TehMagnus on February 3, 2015 10:48AM9 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AlexDougherty wrote: »
Yeah, I agree. It is dividing the community.
I also am having doubts about it, I suspect it will be a long grind to get the VR characters back to where they should be, it seems to be slight increases per Champion Point (CP), and it will take ages to get CPs.
I disagree with OP about it rendering gear irrelevant, from what I understand the champion system boosts base stats and gear values, meaning you need both the best gear and the CPs to make it work.
But I suspect it will be a long grind.
I meant gear is meaningless in the current system, I don't know about the new one but seeing how they nerfed the armor sets, i think the real difference will be with the CP points attribution and armor (which will be very important at first seeing how chars will be weak) won't really make a difference either on the long run3 -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭@OP, is the short version of your post that the attempt to prevent the gap between players from growing too large by applying diminishing returns for CP points is eclipsed by the power of the passives it unlocks, which create a large gap between "haves" and the "have nots"?
I mean, I could see how that might work. I'm way behind in CP, but because of the diminishing returns, I still have the idea in-game I can compete with those ahead of me. Then someone unlocks some OP passive and all of a sudden I think: "wow" that guy is strong, I better catch up!". But then of course I discover the diminishing returns seem to be working against me!Edited by Muizer on February 3, 2015 10:59AMPlease stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightement mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.12 -
Razzak✭✭✭✭✭I agree with OP.
I think they wanted to introduce a system that no player would be able to finish in couple of weeks or even months. And I like that. ESO's crafting research already does that. It doesn't allow anyone to reach 9 traits on a single item in a week. It's a good system that works magic in Eve, but it also has a huge potential problem.
One that is clear in CP Vs crafting research. It's the amount of time that has to be invested in order to get to it's max.
While crafting research is well thought out because it doesn't require you to play the game for years, CP system does precisely that. Where's the fun in knowing you will have to play the game for years in order to finish it? They should lower the time needed and, imo, it would not be such dividing point to ESO's players.3 -
Berinima✭✭✭It is not exactly pointless because for several stars in the system you get a multiplied bonus to your stats. So for example, you get five percent more healing. If you have a healing set this will boost the healing power you already have. If you compare that bonus to somebody who does not have the set you will get more out of your points.
That being said, this is still not very well percieved among players that worked hard to get that set in the first place. It's sloppy, it's flawed and it's dividing the community.2 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightenment mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.
All that is fine, till they want to play PVP and they get owned by someone dealing damage so high they have never seen before, or till they want to do a trial and someone says: Sorry, you need 800 CP to come and this and that passive.
As for the enlightenment mechanic, it can help avoid this dire prediction indeed, but usually enlightenment is caped (at least it was in Aion and Lineage 2 if I remember correctly), and usually, dedicated people manage to earn more XP even outside of enlightenment. A casual guy/gal playing 1 or 2h a day every 2 days, even with enlightenment bonus, won't be able to compete with a guy playing 4h a night + 8h/day on weekends, clearing content over and over again to gain CP and the gap will be wider and wider as weeks pass. With current VR system, even if you played 1h or 2h every 2 days, you'd eventually catch up to the person who grinded VR12 to VR14 in 1 day, with this new system, you'll never catch up.Edited by TehMagnus on February 3, 2015 11:06AM11 -
Syntse✭✭✭✭✭so i really needed to do a detailed breakdown of the stats since i guess people where to lazy to go look themselves and keep calling me a liar.
Ok so you are a stats guy. You like to compare numbers and make your assumptions based on that. Please do some actual live testing too instead of just blindly looking at your numbers. I lost the last bit of thought that you might know something you talk about since the post where you said all mobs and bosses healths are upped and it takes 4 hours to grind one CP when you have been involved in thread that has proven the very opposite.
That tells me that you do not seem to even bother to go in there and test any of your claims other than "my stats are not exactly x10 like they promised".Syntse Dominion Khajiit Dragonknight Stamina Tank [50]
Ra'Syntse Dominion Khajiit Nightblade Magica DPS [50]
Syntselle Dominion Dark Elf Dragonknight Magica DPS [50]
Syntseus Dominion Imperial Templar Healer [50]
Syntsetar Dominion High Elf Sorcerer Magica DPS [50]
Friar Tuktuk Daggerfall Brenton Templar Healer [50]
Syntseyn Ebonheart Brenton Nightblade Magica DPS [50]7 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I agree with OP.
I think they wanted to introduce a system that no player would be able to finish in couple of weeks or even months. And I like that. ESO's crafting research already does that. It doesn't allow anyone to reach 9 traits on a single item in a week. It's a good system that works magic in Eve, but it also has a huge potential problem.
One that is clear in CP Vs crafting research. It's the amount of time that has to be invested in order to get to it's max.
While crafting research is well thought out because it doesn't require you to play the game for years, CP system does precisely that. Where's the fun in knowing you will have to play the game for years in order to finish it? They should lower the time needed and, imo, it would not be such dividing point to ESO's players.
I agree, nothing keeps them from increasing the trees and keep adding passives. It's a sort of linear progression, but at least people don't feel they will never finish it and they will thus never catch up to people who are ahead in the race.2 -
Berinima✭✭✭
Sorry, but I gotta re-post this... There are so many threads now about the chump system, so here it comes:Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one.
Some people keep repeating this like a mantra... "CPs are not VR ranks... They are not a grind... CPs are not VR ranks... They are not a grind..."
Yet they fail to explain how this statement is true. Because sadly, it's not. Especially in the "lower" stages of the system (meaning the first couple of HUNDRED levels) the power growth is quite substantial. Right now, you need 400k XP to get one point and the benefit of one is pretty much the same than a VR rank. It is literally NO difference AT ALL.
Also it DOES NOT smoothly reward people who play the game as it should be played. You like to PvP? Great, it does not reward enough XP to get a decent rate of CP. You like to do raids or dungeons? Great, it does not reward enough XP to get a decent rate of CP. You like to craft? Great, it does not reward any XP at all. You like to quest? Great, there is no content left to do so. Right now, the only way to feel a satisfying advancement is to do daylies or grind your balls off. You do not like to do that because you don't think this is how the game should be played? ZOS begs to differ.
If you disagree, please fire up the PTS and try for yourself. Try and play the game how you think it should be played. Your CP gain doing so will be zero. Then try to actually get one. You will and it eventually might be at a decent rate but only as long as you are enlightened. And you NEED to grind to do that.
That being said, the system has several great ideas. I am not bashing the BASIC CONCEPT behind the system. If it worked you would have a system that has removed the power growth from the items to a certain extent and put it into skill trees that everyone has access to. You could have a basic set of gear and simply respec your character to another role. The more CPs you have the easier that gets. That's amazing! But to achieve that they had to take away the power from the items to a certain degree. That renders end game gear not exactly pointless but is's far less substantial than before. While some people could think this is a good thing, others are freaking out about that because they worked hard to acquire that gear in the first place. It was neccessary to bring the system into play but it is quite invasive and not too smart in my opinion.
Please guys, understand our (or at least my) motivation. It's a system that COULD benefit everyone in the long term. But with the implementation they have on the PTS it simply does not. It's sloppy and it's flawed. They failed to reward every playstyle the same, actually they are quite far from doing so at the moment. They do not handle the power gap that will occur over time properly. Again, they are very far from doing so. Actually, they are handling that problem not AT ALL. This is why we NEED to give them feedback. Blindlessly defending a system some of you might not even have tried out does not exactly help. As it is on the PTS right now it WILL cause severe problems and it WILL divide the player base. It can work but ZOS needs some help to vastly improve the system. In the current state it is NOT healthy for the game nor the community.
Kind regards,
Berinima14 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭
Ok so you are a stats guy. You like to compare numbers and make your assumptions based on that. Please do some actual live testing too instead of just blindly looking at your numbers. I lost the last bit of thought that you might know something you talk about since the post where you said all mobs and bosses healths are upped and it takes 4 hours to grind one CP when you have been involved in thread that has proven the very opposite.
That tells me that you do not seem to even bother to go in there and test any of your claims other than "my stats are not exactly x10 like they promised".
Because myself and other people have personally tested it...and it does take 4 hours to get a CP. Maybe instead of using so much effort to try and disrespect me you should go check out the pts. And what thread proved that trials bosses didn't have increased health and dmg. Can you link that ? Cause I have been in trials on the PTS and it's dumb hard. And I have tested my single target dps on the PTS server and it's around 7K versus 1.4k on the live server. So yes that's a 50 percent nerf.9 -
Wolfsspinne✭✭✭(...) people that just like to grind and are hoping that they get a hudge edge over new players by doing so.
That's a bit prejudging, isn't it?
Why do you think there can't be anyone who enjoys what you call grind WITHOUT the intention of getting an edge over someone?
I for one don't like grind. And for sure I won't be the Person with the farest progress once the System goes live.
But I like constant progression and I like character development that is not just gear based.
Why? - Because I like to Play RPGs!
What is the difference between a RPG and a game that is not a RPG?
Both games could have a variety of weapons and armor.
Both games could have a character editor.
Both games could feature Player decisions.
Both games could have a medieval setting.
Both games could feature a full interactive world.
The only thing that you will possibly only ever find in a RPG is experience points.
(Yes there are many games implementing XP, but all have the genre-extension "with RPG features".)
Most RPGs are created for short term gameplay, ranging from 1 hour (e.g. MOBAs) to a couple of 100 hours (most japanese turnbased RPGs such as PokéMon and Final Fantasy).
Those RPGs work fine with the limited Levels they offer.
MOBAs typically end before all Players reach the end of Progress.
And I never heard of anyone who got all 150 PokéMon to max level...
Now many MMORPGs use almost the same mechanisms for levels as a 20 hour RPG would. But, as you can see in all of those games, this splits the game into two different games:
- The leveling-phase where you play a RPG.
- The endgame-phase where there are no RPG elements anymore.
Now I for one think there never ever should be such things like "max level" or "endgame" in a MMORPG because it's against everything that RPG stands for.
And that is why I, as a more or less casual Player, love the CP-system. Because it promises me constant progression over the next few months, if not years.
(Even with Skyrim Bethesda realized that their players played the game "far to long". They introduced Legendary Skills with patch 1.9 in order to maintain the RPG features.)
TL;DR
I'm right, you're not.Edited by Wolfsspinne on February 3, 2015 11:23AM11 -
Wizzo91✭✭✭✭✭Wolfsspinne wrote: »
That's a bit prejudging, isn't it?
Why do you think there can't be anyone who enjoys what you call grind WITHOUT the intention of getting an edge over someone?
I for one don't like grind. And for sure I won't be the Person with the farest progress once the System goes live.
But I like constant progression and I like character development that is not just gear based.
Why? - Because I like to Play RPGs!
What is the difference between a RPG and a game that is not a RPG?
Both games could have a variety of weapons and armor.
Both games could have a character editor.
Both games could feature Player decisions.
Both games could have a medieval setting.
Both games could feature a full interactive world.
The only thing that you will possibly only ever find in a RPG is experience points.
(Yes there are many games implementing XP, but all have the genre-extension "with RPG features".)
Most RPGs are created for short term gameplay, ranging from 1 hour (e.g. MOBAs) to a couple of 100 hours (most japanese turnbased RPGs such as PokéMon and Final Fantasy).
Those RPGs work fine with the limited Levels they offer.
MOBAs typically end before all Players reach the end of Progress.
And I never heard of anyone who got all 150 PokéMon to max level...
Now many MMORPGs use almost the same mechanisms for levels as a 20 hour RPG would. But, as you can see in all of those games, this splits the game into two different games:
- The leveling-phase where you play a RPG.
- The endgame-phase where there are no RPG elements anymore.
Now I for one think there never ever should be such things like "max level" or "endgame" in a MMORPG because it's against everything that RPG stands for.
And that is why I, as a more or less casual Player, love the CP-system. Because it promises me constant progression over the next few months, if not years.
TL;DR
I'm right, you're not.
You'll have to remember that ESO is a MMORPG not a RPG. There are more players and the most important content in MMOs is content you do with other players. The amout of CPs you have affects other players.
You are not right - you couldn't be more wrong.Edited by Wizzo91 on February 3, 2015 11:22AM[EU]
Wizzo - Stamina DK - 50 - DC
Wizzox - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Vilest Wizz - Magicka Sorc - 50 - DC
Wiser Wizz - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Wizzo X - Magicka NB - 50 - AD
In Rainbows - Stam Sorc - 50 - AD
Fake Plastic Tree - Stamplar - 50 - EP
6XX CP4 -
RazielSR✭✭✭✭✭I completely agree with OP. The game is more than done and zos knows it. They just wanna sell boxes and win money. The game as a concept is forgotten.7 -
Wizzo91✭✭✭✭✭I completely agree with OP. The game is more than done and zos knows it. They just wanna sell boxes and win money. The game as a concept is forgotten.
Yes I agree. This game has died as a mmo and they will change it to please the console crowds.
They will only focus on casual content, e.g. solo zones, where console players can play skyrim online with some friends.
Vet Ranks are a lot more casual friendly than the CP system on PTS is, atm from a MMO stand point of view.
But if you are typical console gamer, who finishes the story once or twice and then leaves it does not matter.
This could of been such a great game if they just stuck to PCs and were not so greedy the whole time.Edited by Wizzo91 on February 3, 2015 11:31AM[EU]
Wizzo - Stamina DK - 50 - DC
Wizzox - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Vilest Wizz - Magicka Sorc - 50 - DC
Wiser Wizz - Magicka NB - 50 - DC
Wizzo X - Magicka NB - 50 - AD
In Rainbows - Stam Sorc - 50 - AD
Fake Plastic Tree - Stamplar - 50 - EP
6XX CP10 -
Syntse✭✭✭✭✭Because myself and other people have personally tested it...and it does take 4 hours to get a CP. Maybe instead of using so much effort to try and disrespect me you should go check out the pts. And what thread proved that trials bosses didn't have increased health and dmg. Can you link that ? Cause I have been in trials on the PTS and it's dumb hard. And I have tested my single target dps on the PTS server and it's around 7K versus 1.4k on the live server. So yes that's a 50 percent nerf.
So you need to be more specific then. Over world mobs seem to have gotten health nerf. They have openly stated that they have upped the bosses health in AA and Hel Ra most likely because they were already becoming too easy. Hmm maybe trials are meant to be hard content.
I've played in the PTS with the template... luckily we'll get our real chars copied soon enough. With the template I played 3,5h one day... gained 4 CP, I must be exploiting or something I guess and I'm pretty much just casual gamer. Did some questing too... wow took me only 2 hours to gain CP. I know in PvP it's really hard to gain CP and that sure should be fixed.
Instead of counting 1400dps x 10 = 14000dps but I put out 7000dps. Do tests with TTK cause those numbers are not comparable when also the mobs have hp lowered. And yeah don't go to trials and say the bosses doesn't die as quick as before since they have mentioned in the notes that hp has been upped and they have changed the timers on those.Syntse Dominion Khajiit Dragonknight Stamina Tank [50]
Ra'Syntse Dominion Khajiit Nightblade Magica DPS [50]
Syntselle Dominion Dark Elf Dragonknight Magica DPS [50]
Syntseus Dominion Imperial Templar Healer [50]
Syntsetar Dominion High Elf Sorcerer Magica DPS [50]
Friar Tuktuk Daggerfall Brenton Templar Healer [50]
Syntseyn Ebonheart Brenton Nightblade Magica DPS [50]4 -
Berinima✭✭✭To be fair here, people have already found builds that deal 12k-14k DPS. If you want to raid you can still do that. You have to adapt to the new meta and it is possible. Is it smart to make people rework their setup, craft new gear and glyphs AGAIN just because ZOS wants to push a new system? I don't think so. I mean they have done it a couple of times. I have now the third iteration of legendary gear since release and it cost me a ton of money just because they decided to "rebalance" the game, but well... This isn't even the point, at least not for me.
But please, all the people that are defending the system. Go ahead and try to render the following points invalid:
- The system does not reward every playstyle the same.
- While questing might be an option to get a decent amount of XP there is no content left to do so.
- If you grinded your way to VR 14 or you have a VR 1 character left you have an advantage over people that do not have that.
- That forces people to grind or do daylies, scrap "play how you want to play". If you disagree then check out the PTS and see for yourself.
- The system does not handle the power gap that will occur over time properly.
- While "enlightenment" is a start to tackle the problem it does only help to a certain extent.
- New players will be sub par compared to veteran players and that will always be the case assuming both spend the same time playing, doing the same activities.
- Future content is impossible to balance because it is impossible to predict how much CP every single player will get over a certain time frame.
- No matter what, the system pisses off a lot of veteran players, if you personally like it or not. These people will leave. How many people this will be remains to be seen but it cycles back to:
- New players will be sub par compared to veteran players and that will always be the case assuming both spend the same time playing, doing the same activities.
The system has many flaws and none of them is handled in a satisfying manner. Instead of defending the system and bashing people that point out these flaws helping ZOS giving good feedback how they could improve their mess might help way more.Edited by Berinima on February 3, 2015 11:40AM10 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭You're right about most things. I also had hoped they will not design the CS in a way that it offers competitive advantage.
What bugs me, is that there are examples for great progression design out there. Take Fifa for example. EA does a great job. You start out with a gimp team and as you play you earn money to buy new players. The vertical progression curve is steep (you can't beat good teams with the gimp team) but short. After a day you already have a good team and after a week you can really compete. After that the progression curve flattens and turns into a horizontal system. Instead of buying stronger players, you buy different players, you buy vanity players, you experiment, you get a second team and a third.
Fifa still has super OP players like Ronaldo and Messi, but there is some really good mechanics involved:- The very best players are infinitely hard to come by (being super rare/expensive), so their impact is more in the form of being a motivating dream than a balancing problem.
- You can beat anyone without these top players, because the normal good players are good enough.
- You need significant skill to fully utilize those top players. That means that the guy who'll give you a 7-0 beating with Messi and Ronaldo in his team will give you at least a 5-0 beating without them, and the player who can't beat you won't be able to beat you with the top players in his team.
A few other elements of Fifa's mechanics translated into MMO terms:- They have a fully free and open economy with a global trading post. No frustrating BoP and BoE ***.
- Their business model is B2P (box price and free play after, with a new extension every year) and P2W (because you can buy players through RNG boxes for real money), but it's not really P2W as argued above. You need skill to make use of the best items, and by the time you have that skill you don't need the items to own other players, so the items don't really matter that much. They're just for vanity, really.
- They have a gear deterioation system in place (player contracts expire) and other typical MMO elements.
I could go on, but I don't know if anyone is interested in this comparison.
TL;DR: They could just copy the progression system from Fifa and they'd have a great game. Fifa is super successful, the numbers below speak for themselves.
3
