Why Champion System will Kill the game if it's implemented as is

Alphashado

TehMagnus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

double post

Alphashado wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I guess for me it boils down to this: If the OP passives were at the top of each tree, then I would agree with the OP and could see how this would create a very major long-term issue. But they aren't. The most powerful passives are easily attainable at the lower end of all the trees.

They actually aren't every bit counts and some of the best passives are at 120 CP (see list linked previously)

I agree with that. I also agree that the required XP to gain a CP seems to be high at this point.

But I don't see any passive that will be a requirement for trial groups costing any more than 30 CP in any tree. There is nothing in the upper tiers that is going to cause even the most elitist guy to boot someone if they don't have it.

If I have to choose between a player that has passives and one that doesn't, I'll pick the one who has them, even if they have the same skill, especially for healers & tanks. Anyone playing competitively will do the same and this will penalize good players whose only fault is starting the game too late or not having as much time as others to grind.

I just looked at the entire tree. Some of the 75/120 pt passives are nice, but they aren't game breaking by any stretch of the imagination. If you would boot someone from a group because they don't have something as trivial as what I am seeing at the top of these trees, then you are just a pure elitist. And that's fine. Plenty of elitist guilds out there.

But there are also plenty of guilds out there that will easily run and complete trials without run speed enhancements and stamina buffs to mounts.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

double post

Alphashado wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I guess for me it boils down to this: If the OP passives were at the top of each tree, then I would agree with the OP and could see how this would create a very major long-term issue. But they aren't. The most powerful passives are easily attainable at the lower end of all the trees.

They actually aren't every bit counts and some of the best passives are at 120 CP (see list linked previously)

I agree with that. I also agree that the required XP to gain a CP seems to be high at this point.

But I don't see any passive that will be a requirement for trial groups costing any more than 30 CP in any tree. There is nothing in the upper tiers that is going to cause even the most elitist guy to boot someone if they don't have it.

If I have to choose between a player that has passives and one that doesn't, I'll pick the one who has them, even if they have the same skill, especially for healers & tanks. Anyone playing competitively will do the same and this will penalize good players whose only fault is starting the game too late or not having as much time as others to grind.

Where is the competition in PVE?

TehMagnus

Alphashado wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

double post

Alphashado wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I guess for me it boils down to this: If the OP passives were at the top of each tree, then I would agree with the OP and could see how this would create a very major long-term issue. But they aren't. The most powerful passives are easily attainable at the lower end of all the trees.

They actually aren't every bit counts and some of the best passives are at 120 CP (see list linked previously)

I agree with that. I also agree that the required XP to gain a CP seems to be high at this point.

But I don't see any passive that will be a requirement for trial groups costing any more than 30 CP in any tree. There is nothing in the upper tiers that is going to cause even the most elitist guy to boot someone if they don't have it.

If I have to choose between a player that has passives and one that doesn't, I'll pick the one who has them, even if they have the same skill, especially for healers & tanks. Anyone playing competitively will do the same and this will penalize good players whose only fault is starting the game too late or not having as much time as others to grind.

I just looked at the entire tree. Some of the 75/120 pt passives are nice, but they aren't game breaking by any stretch of the imagination. If you would boot someone from a group because they don't have something as trivial as what I am seeing at the top of these trees, then you are just a pure elitist. And that's fine. Plenty of elitist guilds out there.

But there are also plenty of guilds out there that will easily run and complete trials without run speed enhancements and stamina buffs to mounts.

Tell that to the new players that wants to compete in end game PVE:

Sorry, no good/hardcore guild will take you because you started the game too late and have a life that impedes you from playing 2x more than them to catch up to them, but don't worry! There's still tons of guilds filled with newbs that will embrace you for fun runs, just forget about competition in PVE or PVP.

Berinima

Somehow I don't get why so many people are defending the system with everything they have except valid points. I mean, you realize that we are trying to improve the system for everyone, new as well as veteran players, right?

I have not read a single good point why the system is good as it is. Only very elaborate postings like "gtfo you are wrong lol", contributions like "this has been blown out of proportions" at best, sadly without mathematical proof. Not a single post that can actually render every given point invalid. Kinda sad.

TehMagnus

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

double post

Alphashado wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I guess for me it boils down to this: If the OP passives were at the top of each tree, then I would agree with the OP and could see how this would create a very major long-term issue. But they aren't. The most powerful passives are easily attainable at the lower end of all the trees.

They actually aren't every bit counts and some of the best passives are at 120 CP (see list linked previously)

I agree with that. I also agree that the required XP to gain a CP seems to be high at this point.

But I don't see any passive that will be a requirement for trial groups costing any more than 30 CP in any tree. There is nothing in the upper tiers that is going to cause even the most elitist guy to boot someone if they don't have it.

If I have to choose between a player that has passives and one that doesn't, I'll pick the one who has them, even if they have the same skill, especially for healers & tanks. Anyone playing competitively will do the same and this will penalize good players whose only fault is starting the game too late or not having as much time as others to grind.

Where is the competition in PVE?

Didn't you quit the game after a patch you didn't like that was pushed live?

TehMagnus

Berinima wrote: »

Somehow I don't get why so many people are defending the system with everything they have except valid points. I mean, you realize that we are trying to improve the system for everyone, new as well as veteran players, right?

I have not read a single good point why the system is good as it is. Only very elaborate postings like "gtfo you are wrong lol", contributions like "this has been blown out of proportions" at best, sadly without mathematical proof. Not a single post that can actually render every given point invalid. Kinda sad.

Well people currently playing the game, even with the disparities that will be created at first, will still be ahead of all the new people that B2P will bring into the game, guess it's enough to support a system even if it could mean the end of the game >_<

Alphashado

Seriously though.


- 120 Infusion Increases another player's Magicka Regeneration by (xxx) after you resurrect them

- 120 Arcane Well Grants 20% chance when you kill enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (xxxx) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5m of the enemy

- 120 Reinforced When blocking gain a damage shield for (xxx) every 20 seconds

- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds


You would boot people from your trial group because they don't have THAT?
Really?
All the other stuff is easily attainable. Especially if/when they reduce the required XP for point gain.

Well, if you would exclude people for not having those borderline unerwhelming skills, then so be it. But that's just straight up elitism. There will be plenty of groups/guilds that will function at endgame just fine without those ^^

Faugaun

@TehMagnus‌

Thanks you inspired this:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149963/a-radical-redesign-of-the-champion-system#latest

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

double post

Alphashado wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I guess for me it boils down to this: If the OP passives were at the top of each tree, then I would agree with the OP and could see how this would create a very major long-term issue. But they aren't. The most powerful passives are easily attainable at the lower end of all the trees.

They actually aren't every bit counts and some of the best passives are at 120 CP (see list linked previously)

I agree with that. I also agree that the required XP to gain a CP seems to be high at this point.

But I don't see any passive that will be a requirement for trial groups costing any more than 30 CP in any tree. There is nothing in the upper tiers that is going to cause even the most elitist guy to boot someone if they don't have it.

If I have to choose between a player that has passives and one that doesn't, I'll pick the one who has them, even if they have the same skill, especially for healers & tanks. Anyone playing competitively will do the same and this will penalize good players whose only fault is starting the game too late or not having as much time as others to grind.

Where is the competition in PVE?

Didn't you quit the game after a patch you didn't like that was pushed live?

Partly, I decided to pay a month's fee to see the disaster that seems to be evolving for myself.

I'll take your reply as answer to my question and view it accordingly: a mean-spirited attitude to 'noobs' based on the same warped prejudice as WOW players view Gearscore.

Amirite?

TehMagnus

Alphashado wrote: »

Seriously though.


- 120 Infusion Increases another player's Magicka Regeneration by (xxx) after you resurrect them

- 120 Arcane Well Grants 20% chance when you kill enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (xxxx) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5m of the enemy

- 120 Reinforced When blocking gain a damage shield for (xxx) every 20 seconds

- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds


You would boot people from your trial group because they don't have THAT?
Really?
All the other stuff is easily attainable. Especially if/when they reduce the required XP for point gain.

Yup, when comes a point when many healers in the game have Infusion, many DPSers have Arcane Well, and tanks have reinforced, I wont take people in raid who don't have the passives and I won't be alone. Why take subpar when there are people running optimal? It's always like this in MMOs. Moreover if they have those passives it will mean they are veteran players and obviously have many many points invested in other bonuses, thus making their characters stronger.

Just wait & see, to quote Pythia: "All this has happened before. All this will happen again."

Edit: But I agree with you regarding the XP. If the CP are easier to obtain for everybody, then the grind is smaller, the end is foreseeable and people don't feel like it's an endless grind nor that they can't ever get to the point where the diminishing returns actually diminish the gap between them and other players.

Alphashado

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Seriously though.


- 120 Infusion Increases another player's Magicka Regeneration by (xxx) after you resurrect them

- 120 Arcane Well Grants 20% chance when you kill enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (xxxx) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5m of the enemy

- 120 Reinforced When blocking gain a damage shield for (xxx) every 20 seconds

- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds


You would boot people from your trial group because they don't have THAT?
Really?
All the other stuff is easily attainable. Especially if/when they reduce the required XP for point gain.

Yup, when comes a point when many healers in the game have Infusion, many DPSers have Arcane Well, and tanks have reinforced, I wont take people in raid who don't have the passives and I won't be alone. Why take subpar when there are people running optimal? It's always like this in MMOs.

Just wait & see, to quote Pythia: "All this has happened before. All this will happen again."

/shrug. That's just fine. There are guilds out there right now that won't take people unless they are using the latest FOTM builds/classes

I can understand requiring the lower level passives like Crit% increase etc. But if you are bugging out over those underwhelming 120 point skills, then that is no different then how it is right now. It's not game breaking. It's just elitist vs non elitist. Nothing new.

Berinima

Faugaun wrote: »

@TehMagnus‌

Thanks you inspired this:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149963/a-radical-redesign-of-the-champion-system#latest

I don't want to post in your thread at the moment because I highly appreciate people that are actually putting thoughts into mechanics how the system can improve no matter if they are good or not instead of just calling out BS to criticism.

This approach is somewhat better than tying it to XP and rewards players more or less the same. Also it eliminates grinding from the equation and hunting achievements is (or at least should be) way more fun than running around in circles and killing mobs. And it can be less abused, like for example by using bots. However, implementing a mechanic like enlightenment can't apply with achievements and there is still a huge power gap between new and old players that is not addressed with your system.

technohic

Berinima wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

@TehMagnus‌

Thanks you inspired this:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149963/a-radical-redesign-of-the-champion-system#latest

I don't want to post in your thread at the moment because I highly appreciate people that are actually putting thoughts into mechanics how the system can improve no matter if they are good or not instead of just calling out BS to criticism.

This approach is somewhat better than tying it to XP and rewards players more or less the same. Also it eliminates grinding from the equation and hunting achievements is (or at least should be) way more fun than running around in circles and killing mobs. And it can be less abused, like for example by using bots. However, implementing a mechanic like enlightenment can't apply with achievements and there is still a huge power gap between new and old players that is not addressed with your system.

Huh. I didn;t post in it because I wanted to be nice even though I HATE the idea of using achievements. Kind of puts people on rails to doing very specific things when chasing achievements.

Lied

Berinima wrote: »

I have not read a single good point why the system is good as it is. Only very elaborate postings like "gtfo you are wrong lol", contributions like "this has been blown out of proportions" at best, sadly without mathematical proof. Not a single post that can actually render every given point invalid. Kinda sad.

Math proof on why "+xxx health after a crit" is or isn't OP? How do you even do that when you're not actually giving any math to dispute? Even if you were, I'm not sure that you can render the "this is an insignificant advantage over a short period of time" opinion invalid with the "this is a significant advantage over a long period of time" opinion.

Berinima

Yeah, unfortunately this is also a problem. I mean some people have sort of achieved everything they ever will by now. They levelled up, did some dungeons, maybe even the veteran ones but from now on they don't raid, they don't fish, they only want to spend their time doing PvP (or vice versa). So their character will never improve. The only attempt to fix that is by assuming an average player that tries out every part of the game but choses one specific area as his "endgame" and set that as a cap for the system. But we are these characters already which makes advancement impossible and renders the whole system pointless.

TehMagnus

Faugaun wrote: »

@TehMagnus‌

Thanks you inspired this:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149963/a-radical-redesign-of-the-champion-system#latest

Glad to see something positive coming out from these discussions @Faugaun‌

Berinima

Lied wrote: »

Math proof on why "+xxx health after a crit" is or isn't OP? How do you even do that when you're not actually giving any math to dispute? Even if you were, I'm not sure that you can render the "this is an insignificant advantage over a short period of time" opinion invalid with the "this is a significant advantage over a long period of time" opinion.

Well, for starters you can try to address all these issues the system is without a doubt having:

- The system does not reward every playstyle the same.

- While questing might be an option to get a decent amount of XP there is no content left to do so.

- If you grinded your way to VR 14 or you have a VR 1 character left you have an advantage over people that do not have that.

- That forces people to grind or do daylies, scrap "play how you want to play". If you disagree then check out the PTS and see for yourself.

- The system does not handle the power gap that will occur over time properly.

- While "enlightenment" is a start to tackle the problem it does only help to a certain extent.

- New players will be sub par compared to veteran players and that will always be the case assuming both spend the same time playing, doing the same activities.

- Future content is impossible to balance because it is impossible to predict how much CP every single player will get over a certain time frame.

- No matter what, the system pisses off a lot of veteran players, if you personally like it or not. These people will leave. How many people this will be remains to be seen but it cycles back to:

- New players will be sub par compared to veteran players and that will always be the case assuming both spend the same time playing, doing the same activities

TehMagnus

Alphashado wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Seriously though.


- 120 Infusion Increases another player's Magicka Regeneration by (xxx) after you resurrect them

- 120 Arcane Well Grants 20% chance when you kill enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (xxxx) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5m of the enemy

- 120 Reinforced When blocking gain a damage shield for (xxx) every 20 seconds

- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds


You would boot people from your trial group because they don't have THAT?
Really?
All the other stuff is easily attainable. Especially if/when they reduce the required XP for point gain.

Yup, when comes a point when many healers in the game have Infusion, many DPSers have Arcane Well, and tanks have reinforced, I wont take people in raid who don't have the passives and I won't be alone. Why take subpar when there are people running optimal? It's always like this in MMOs.

Just wait & see, to quote Pythia: "All this has happened before. All this will happen again."

/shrug. That's just fine. There are guilds out there right now that won't take people unless they are using the latest FOTM builds/classes

I can understand requiring the lower level passives like Crit% increase etc. But if you are bugging out over those underwhelming 120 point skills, then that is no different then how it is right now. It's not game breaking. It's just elitist vs non elitist. Nothing new.

Except at the moment, non elitists actually have a chance because the VR14 poses a level limit where content munchers and old players are stuck and that gives new-non elitist players the chance to get there even if slowly. This won't be possible anymore with CS as is.

I know many guys who read my builds and have made friends with me and usually let me know how things go for them or ask me some questions, I see how they improve over time, how they apply my advices or even try new stuff on their own and how eventually with continuous work, they become better and they feel good about it. If the game kept as it currently is, they'd eventually catch up in skill & knowledge about their class to me or any good player in the game.

With an ever evolving system this will simply not be possible. They'll always be some steps behind. It's a big difference to climb a mountain whose top you can see and where people who are at the top are encouraging you to climb rather than climbing a mountain where the top is so far away, you know you will never reach it and that it will take you years to reach the players that are near the top and are being slowed down by the wind...

Soulshine

Alphashado wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Seriously though.


- 120 Infusion Increases another player's Magicka Regeneration by (xxx) after you resurrect them

- 120 Arcane Well Grants 20% chance when you kill enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (xxxx) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5m of the enemy

- 120 Reinforced When blocking gain a damage shield for (xxx) every 20 seconds

- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds


You would boot people from your trial group because they don't have THAT?
Really?
All the other stuff is easily attainable. Especially if/when they reduce the required XP for point gain.

Yup, when comes a point when many healers in the game have Infusion, many DPSers have Arcane Well, and tanks have reinforced, I wont take people in raid who don't have the passives and I won't be alone. Why take subpar when there are people running optimal? It's always like this in MMOs.

Just wait & see, to quote Pythia: "All this has happened before. All this will happen again."

/shrug. That's just fine. There are guilds out there right now that won't take people unless they are using the latest FOTM builds/classes

I can understand requiring the lower level passives like Crit% increase etc. But if you are bugging out over those underwhelming 120 point skills, then that is no different then how it is right now. It's not game breaking. It's just elitist vs non elitist. Nothing new.

Well sadly, your conclusion here is "nothing new" either then. In many MMOs, the feedback from progression raiders and competitive PvP players is forever reduced to the notion of "elitism" and "unecesary" and hence dismissed. It is the reality of every single MMO I have ever seen.

What perhaps many do not grasp is that it is exactly these players who will work their booties off to test over and over again what is most optimal in the systems at hand, do the theorycrafting, post the builds, test again, discuss, run, test, ad nauseum because that is what they enjoy doing... and who benefits from that effort do you suppose, eh? ONLY those players?

It is a bizarre irony that competitive players are so openly despised in the public game forums when every bit of information they unconver seems to be precisley the stuff that practically everyone, competitive or not, wants to have at their disposal to play the game, since yes everyone wants the shineys and to win. They publicly take the position of "no, it's all just elitist BS and we don't need that anyway to play," then all the while taking in the info like sponges, stamping on the builds, buying the BoE gear, etc. Hypocrisy at its finest if you ask me. The difference between "need" and "want" is a huge chasm and many are all to happy to cross it if someone else shows them the way. Preferrably the easiest way, so much the better.

As for the entire discussion of CP, I have stopped participating in any other threads about it since there seems to be a fundamental inability on the part of many people reading to distinguish the difference between critical feedback and concern over problems in the CP system with outright trashing of the ENTIRE SYSTEM, which is a totally different thing and I personally at least have not done. I have stated I believe it's implementation is flawed and why, that it needs some big time work. My character is not suffering on PTS, is still kicking booty, the game is still too easy, and there is still no new content or zones for me to run. Not much more to say.

Berinima

And for the mathematical part: Looking at the champion system as it is now even for one single role (let's assume DPS), there are at least 20 stars that might interest you. One star diminishes from the start on but I'd say putting at least 20-30 points in one are very worth it, for the sake of the argument let's say only 20. That even disregards the perks that you can get from one constellation and how they bolster your resource pools.

So that brings us to a break-even point of approximately 400 spent CPs when diminishing returns are a REAL factor (not a smoke-and-mirrors one). So please, tell us how that does NOT affect your performance at all to give a new player something to worry about.

TehMagnus

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Seriously though.


- 120 Infusion Increases another player's Magicka Regeneration by (xxx) after you resurrect them

- 120 Arcane Well Grants 20% chance when you kill enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (xxxx) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5m of the enemy

- 120 Reinforced When blocking gain a damage shield for (xxx) every 20 seconds

- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds


You would boot people from your trial group because they don't have THAT?
Really?
All the other stuff is easily attainable. Especially if/when they reduce the required XP for point gain.

Yup, when comes a point when many healers in the game have Infusion, many DPSers have Arcane Well, and tanks have reinforced, I wont take people in raid who don't have the passives and I won't be alone. Why take subpar when there are people running optimal? It's always like this in MMOs.

Just wait & see, to quote Pythia: "All this has happened before. All this will happen again."

/shrug. That's just fine. There are guilds out there right now that won't take people unless they are using the latest FOTM builds/classes

I can understand requiring the lower level passives like Crit% increase etc. But if you are bugging out over those underwhelming 120 point skills, then that is no different then how it is right now. It's not game breaking. It's just elitist vs non elitist. Nothing new.

Well sadly, your conclusion here is "nothing new" either then. In many MMOs, the feedback from progression raiders and competitive PvP players is forever reduced to the notion of "elitism" and "unecesary" and hence dismissed. It is the reality of every single MMO I have ever seen.

What perhaps many do not grasp is that it is exactly these players who will work their booties off to test over and over again what is most optimal in the systems at hand, do the theorycrafting, post the builds, test again, discuss, run, test, ad nauseum because that is what they enjoy doing... and who benefits from that effort do you suppose, eh? ONLY those players?

It is a bizarre irony that competitive players are so openly despised in the public game forums when every bit of information they unconver seems to be precisley the stuff that practically everyone, competitive or not, wants to have at their disposal to play the game, since yes everyone wants the shineys and to win. They publicly take the position of "no, it's all just elitist BS and we don't need that anyway to play," then all the while taking in the info like sponges, stamping on the builds, buying the BoE gear, etc. Hypocrisy at its finest if you ask me. The difference between "need" and "want" is a huge chasm and many are all to happy to cross it if someone else shows them the way. Preferrably the easiest way, so much the better.

As for the entire discussion of CP, I have stopped participating in any other threads about it since there seems to be a fundamental inability on the part of many people reading to distinguish the difference between critical feedback and concern over problems in the CP system with outright trashing of the ENTIRE SYSTEM, which is a totally different thing and I personally at least have not done. I have stated I believe it's implementation is flawed and why, that it needs some big time work. My character is not suffering on PTS, is still kicking booty, the game is still too easy, and there is still no new content or zones for me to run. Not much more to say.

Pretty much this for me. But when the game suffers from lack of players and people who leave, then kicking booty is sadly not enough.

Well at least with 1.7 we can reroll in other alliances easily so I bet some alliances will eventually be deserted...

Lied

Berinima wrote: »

Well, for starters you can try to address all these issues the system is without a doubt having:
- The system does not reward every playstyle the same.
- While questing might be an option to get a decent amount of XP there is no content left to do so.
- If you grinded your way to VR 14 or you have a VR 1 character left you have an advantage over people that do not have that.
- That forces people to grind or do daylies, scrap "play how you want to play". If you disagree then check out the PTS and see for yourself.
- While "enlightenment" is a start to tackle the problem it does only help to a certain extent.
- No matter what, the system pisses off a lot of veteran players, if you personally like it or not. These people will leave. How many people this will be remains to be seen but it cycles back to:

I don't see anyone disputing any of those points...

Berinima wrote: »

- The system does not handle the power gap that will occur over time properly.
- New players will be sub par compared to veteran players and that will always be the case assuming both spend the same time playing, doing the same activities.
- Future content is impossible to balance because it is impossible to predict how much CP every single player will get over a certain time frame.

This is what people seem to be debating in this thread, and it's entirely opinion based. If you're only saying it's a "fact" that there will always be a gap in power between new and veteran players then I'd say yeah, I agree. When you say that gap is significant and game breaking then sorry, you're going to get the differing opinions you've been getting. Nobody is going to prove anything concerning their own personal definition of what is or isn't too much power/progression.

clocksstoppe

nice buzzwords mate, but as long as everyone can do all endgame content at level 50 nobody will give a crap about minmaxing the champ point system.

edit: also 80 hours to get the strongest CP passives is literally nothing in terms of mmo game time.

Berinima

Soulshine wrote: »

As for the entire discussion of CP, I have stopped participating in any other threads about it since there seems to be a fundamental inability on the part of many people reading to distinguish the difference between critical feedback and concern over problems in the CP system with outright trashing of the ENTIRE SYSTEM, which is a totally different thing and I personally at least have not done. I have stated I believe it's implementation is flawed and why, that it needs some big time work. My character is not suffering on PTS, is still kicking booty, the game is still too easy, and there is still no new content or zones for me to run. Not much more to say.

I absolutely agree. I actually agree to everything you said but to me this is the most important part so I only quoted that. I still don't get why people can't see that everything we wrote here is a real concern and we are writing our booties off to make this faulty balancing nightmare actually work.

GaldorP

There is a way to make it more like horizontal progression and create more diversity in builds at the same time:

Make every bonus from the Champion System come at a price. For example: You gain 5% Spell Critical but you loose 5% Armor or get 5% more weakness to Fire. That's how I think horizontal progression works in PvP-oriented MMOGs like Planetside 2. You can buy and unlock new weapons that are often more specialized, can do certain things better than the starter weapons everyone gets for free, but in other aspects they are worse. And each weapon is the best choice for some situation/playstyle or it's the best all around weapon but shines in no particular category.

That way the Champion System would offer more choices but would not make characters with 360 points that much stronger anymore. To prevent constant respeccing, the Champion Points could only be redistributed at special NPCs in major towns.

Of course, then, the spamming of damage shields and ridiculous stacking of heals would have to be fixed, damage mitigation capped at a reasonable percentage value, no permanent invisibility in the middle of combat, shadow clone destructible, reflective scales nerfed a lot harder, global damage reduction of character skills in PvP by 20-30% (siege weapons not affected), and PvP-balance would be reasonable again

Berinima

Lied wrote: »

This is what people seem to be debating in this thread, and it's entirely opinion based. If you're only saying it's a "fact" that there will always be a gap in power between new and veteran players then I'd say yeah, I agree. When you say that gap is significant and game breaking then sorry, you're going to get the differing opinions you've been getting. Nobody is going to prove anything concerning their own personal definition of what is or isn't too much power/progression.

How are twenty perks consisting of "10% more crit", "10% more magic damage", "10% more healing recieved" etc. etc. etc. plus passives plus a bigger resource pool (that also scales your damage) a power gap that is opinion based ???

Lied

Berinima wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

This is what people seem to be debating in this thread, and it's entirely opinion based. If you're only saying it's a "fact" that there will always be a gap in power between new and veteran players then I'd say yeah, I agree. When you say that gap is significant and game breaking then sorry, you're going to get the differing opinions you've been getting. Nobody is going to prove anything concerning their own personal definition of what is or isn't too much power/progression.

How are twenty perks consisting of "10% more crit", "10% more magic damage", "10% more healing recieved" etc. etc. etc. plus passives plus a bigger resource pool (that also scales your damage) a power gap that is opinion based ???

Because you don't get to define the exact % at which something becomes OP for anyone but yourself? How is this surprising considering you have a thread full of people disagreeing with eachother on that point?

Humanistic

@TehMagnus‌ - It doesn't matter that much any more with the cash shop being put in. Well thought game design and fun-factor now has a back seat in favor of making money. It happened with SWTOR, and it's happening now with this game.

It doesn't matter how you want to explain it to yourself - money is the factor here. No dev that I've seen has ever been quoted as saying, "we wanted to make the best/breakthrough/next-gen RPG...". If that was the focus, then a great game we would have, and the money would roll in. Shame people don't realize that.

TehMagnus

clocksstoppe wrote: »

nice buzzwords mate, but as long as everyone can do all endgame content at level 50 nobody will give a crap about minmaxing the champ point system.

edit: also 80 hours to get the strongest CP passives is literally nothing in terms of mmo game time.

It's 80h to get one passive, one, and seing how most of the server can't clear SO atm i highly doubt 1.6 with all it's nerfs and changes will make it easier for those players.

Lied

TehMagnus wrote: »

It's 80h to get one passive, one, and seing how most of the server can't clear SO atm i highly doubt 1.6 with all it's nerfs and changes will make it easier for those players.

Which may matter for SO, but not so much for the future content focused on DLCs that will all scale anyway according to ZOS.