Why Champion System will Kill the game if it's implemented as is

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

kewl wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

so i really needed to do a detailed breakdown of the stats since i guess people where to lazy to go look themselves and keep calling me a liar. When i took these multipliers on the live server i had all pvp bonuses with no food active...and i had food active on the pts...i didnt realise that at the time. that being condisered...the nerfs to health and stam are actually worse if you take into account i had the food active on the pts. thegear is the same on both servers. so here are the numbers :
Health 7.10
Magic 8.27
Stam 9.34
Spell damage 12.9
Spell resist 7.51
Magic regen 7.44
Health regen 8.3
Stam regen 8.24
Weapon dmg 9.66
Armor 7.33
crit for both took nerfs even though the values are not showing correctly.
i perceive all these stats as being nerfed except the spell damage which went up. Also i should tell you i had no points in any of the cp areas just to try and get the most clean comparison. I encourage you guys to discuss these numbers.

Thanks for taking the time to do this comparison @Joejudas‌ . It clearly illustrates the points you have been making.

His point isn't relevant, per se stat numbers are meaningless, it's the context that matters and as usual he's provided none.

He continues to avoid providing any evidence of the EFFECT of these changes on his character's ability to play through content it does on live. He' been screaming NERF and threatening to leave for days solely focused on NUMBERS and never once trying to demonstrate that characters' VIABILITY has been damaged.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Soulshine wrote: »

FOTM does not win the prize either; players do. Skills within a build set are never the only consideration any competitive player or his guild worth their salt will take into account - one must look at the whole package and most importantly how someone performs with it.

Completely true .. BUT .. the elitist will first of all filter out those who aren't running FoTM so he'll never get a change to see how skillful a non-FoTM player is.

Your point is valid, in practice it rarely happens.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

StaticWax wrote: »

Nothing is a grind if it's something you enjoy.

So many ppl play these games for the wrong reasons...

Because doing the same thing, day in, day out for weeks and months is something most people associate with 'work' .. 'grinding' XP by killing the same mob packs a million times isn't inherently 'fun' for most, it seems you're saying playing a game for 'fun' is the "wrong reason".

tplink3r1

Vertical Progression? thats just what i wanted.
Super Casual OP detected.

TehMagnus

TehMagnus wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

nice buzzwords mate, but as long as everyone can do all endgame content at level 50 nobody will give a crap about minmaxing the champ point system.

edit: also 80 hours to get the strongest CP passives is literally nothing in terms of mmo game time.

It's 80h to get one passive, one, and seing how most of the server can't clear SO atm i highly doubt 1.6 with all it's nerfs and changes will make it easier for those players.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Now for the records.

Months and months of "predictions" both mine and Magnus have (sadly) been proven right and ZoS proven wrong: from the VR nerf onwards.

So I'll make another two:

1) There's a future where any vaguely serious progress guild will only accept players showing "proper CP allocation and amount". If CP "progress" will be able to be linked even randoms shall demand to link "CP achievement" on this and that constellation.

2) There's a future where there shall be enough protests (expecially from PvPers, which shall be truly BLASTED by this mechanic) that ZoS will have to nerf CP passives effectiveness. And then the hell will break loose, because this time they are not going to nerf people who "worked to grind NN x VR levels" or "worked to grind 12 yellow reagents" (gear nerfs), but they will nerf people who spent RL weeks or even months to get those passives. And this could spell ESO's final demise.

After all, which attraction does a F2P title have, if you start it and get perma-beaten to pulp by guys whose only merit is to have started a couple of months earlier than you?
Which kind of solutions shall ZoS offer to those F2P new players? P2Win potions to close CP gaps months worth of grinding? In any case it'll be awful.

Your second point is the part that annoys me the most, they will either nerf the passives (which IMO is a bad solution) or nerf the XP needed to gain passives or the # of point allocation needed to get the passives (which IMO is the lesser of 3 evils).

Knowing ZOS, it will be an XP nerf which means that people who will work their asses to get the bonuses will have wasted time (unless ZOS awards extra CP retroactively for... ok yeah we can forget about it). Such waste of time could be avoided if ZOS made the changes prior to the launch of the system or in worse case scenario, when 1.7 hits.

Edit: Also for the guy saying "you need 90CP to get all the best passives", I suggest you download and log on PTS then check how CP allocation works and where the passives are located in the trees. I haven't made any calculations yet (because I'm lazy and because I don't even want to know what the real result is because it will depress me) but, seeing how you need to spend equal number of points in the 3 constellations and that some op passives are in different trees which means you gotta invest 30 -75 or 120 in different trees to get the different passives, I'm guessing it's at the very very least 500 CP before you're really in the diminishing return area (and when you got 500 CP and a guy starts the game with 0, you will obliterate him in anything bot of you attempt, even if he is at max level, even if you have the same skill & gear).

AshySamurai

TehMagnus wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

nice buzzwords mate, but as long as everyone can do all endgame content at level 50 nobody will give a crap about minmaxing the champ point system.

edit: also 80 hours to get the strongest CP passives is literally nothing in terms of mmo game time.

It's 80h to get one passive, one, and seing how most of the server can't clear SO atm i highly doubt 1.6 with all it's nerfs and changes will make it easier for those players.

First of all I agree with you (finally ^^). CS will create a gap between players. But IMO 80h to get 3 passives, not 1. You get each point in different constellation. So, if you get 5 points in warrior constellation, it means you also have 5 points in thief and mage constellations.

TehMagnus

AshySamurai wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

nice buzzwords mate, but as long as everyone can do all endgame content at level 50 nobody will give a crap about minmaxing the champ point system.

edit: also 80 hours to get the strongest CP passives is literally nothing in terms of mmo game time.

It's 80h to get one passive, one, and seing how most of the server can't clear SO atm i highly doubt 1.6 with all it's nerfs and changes will make it easier for those players.

First of all I agree with you (finally ^^). CS will create a gap between players. But IMO 80h to get 3 passives, not 1. You get each point in different constellation. So, if you get 5 points in warrior constellation, it means you also have 5 points in thief and mage constellations.

Except some of the best passives are in the same constellations

felinith66

Wow! I didn't realize there are so many concerns in the forums about equality and keeping the gap close between new and veteran players. What ZOS should do is just give every VR player 30 CP account-wide when the system goes live so the gap will not be that large.

You guys agree?

TehMagnus

felinith66 wrote: »

Wow! I didn't realize there are so many concerns in the forums about equality and keeping the gap close between new and veteran players. What ZOS should do is just give every VR player 30 CP account-wide when the system goes live so the gap will not be that large.

You guys agree?

This has nothing to do about equality, it's about fairness and keeping the game healthy. Take your troll elsewhere.

IceDread

The thing is, there are those that simply can not compete with others if they do not have an in game advantage and all those players favors this system while it puts others players off.

In pvp someone who has played a lot will have an advantage for him probably being better at the game. But this game, gives in pvp a player an extra advantage if they have spent a lot of time over those that has not. It's disgusting.

It's like in sports where you take away the shoes from a new football team because they are new... instead of letting all football players have equal chance and the factor that matters are how good they actually are.

felinith66

TehMagnus wrote: »

felinith66 wrote: »

Wow! I didn't realize there are so many concerns in the forums about equality and keeping the gap close between new and veteran players. What ZOS should do is just give every VR player 30 CP account-wide when the system goes live so the gap will not be that large.

You guys agree?

This has nothing to do about equality, it's about fairness and keeping the game healthy. Take your troll elsewhere.

If you say so

Just one question. In fairness to whom?

Lithium Flower

Every point in the OP is a concern every long-time player in nearly every guild I am a part of shares - we are staring in the face of an intolerably long grind to be able to participate in end-game, we are looking at reduced gameplay options and we are looking at an ever widening power gap between new players and veteran ones.

I am hardly elitist, most of my friends are not either yet we want to play content like Veteran DSA and Sanctum Ophidia. In our current group for, one of main tanks has been playing the game for a little over a month and there are also players sporting beta monkeys from launch. The veteran system was grindy, but it still allowed people to catch up. How is a fresh VR14 ever supposed to compete with people accumulating tens of points furthering their viability while he struggles with the first 30 (the minimum needed to be viable in the new meta).

And that is not the only thing or even the main thing that worries me personally. Most people I play with are able to perform multiple roles by a simple switch of gear. Most dragonknights I pledge with can tank or damage deal as the occasion demands. All that's needed is switching armour and jewelry and slotting different skills. This is a great thing! It means more people can fill vacant spots in groups. People get to play more, they get to relate to each other more, understand the challenges and demands of different roles and there is better group cohesion. People don't get bored only ever getting to pew pew enemies or getting hit in the face or jumping around healing.

And this possibility will be severely limited by the new system. If I want my Dragonknight to be viable to my Sanctum Group where I play DD, I will have to sacrifice my ability to tank for my pledge groups. This reduces my options, reduces the number of people I can play with, reduces the number of people I can accommodate in groups I run (If I'm tanking and I find another player who is also a tank, I can accommodate him by switching roles instead of rejecting him and vice versa). How can this ever be explained as something good for the long-term health of the game?

The minimum that can be done to prevent this catastrophe is reducing the amount of XP required to gain a champion point and reducing the flat numbers required for the passives to bring it in line with the time-investment of current veteran ranks.

On a side note, I am in awe of various posts here implying that Magnus is an elitist, anti-social player. I don't know him personally, he is not on my friendlist or in any of my guilds. But I see him often in Belkarth and I've been in a pug group or two with him. He's an elite player for sure, demonstrated by his achievements and skill but he is an upstanding member of the EP community whose contributions directly assist and aid new end-game players. His build and derivatives of it, are the gold standard adopted by magicka-based Dragonknight damage dealers every where. He's friendly and helpful, certainly not averse to joining a casual group and sharing insight and experience - which is what he is doing here.

TehMagnus

Lithium Flower wrote: »

His build and derivatives of it, are the gold standard adopted by magicka-based Dragonknight damage dealers every where.

Thanks for the kind words, just a note, it's not "my build", it's a group effort. I'm merely sharing what I can to other players to help them improve.

Rescorla_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightenment mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.

All that is fine, till they want to play PVP and they get owned by someone dealing damage so high they have never seen before, or till they want to do a trial and someone says: Sorry, you need 800 CP to come and this and that passive.

Assuming veteran ranks are removed from the game and the level cap becomes 50, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that future endgame PVE content (raids, trials) and future best in slot gear will be gated by having a minimum CP value. The difficulty of the endgame player content should be balanced against what the player base is currently capable of defeating. In other words, for now that means to do DSA and SO the difficulty is designed for VR 14 characters. Since VR14 characters will get 70CP when 1.6 goes live, safe to assume DSA and SO will be designed for characters with 70 CP.

Fast forward to summer 2015 and a patch that adds a new endgame trial or raid to the game. This new content is designed for players who have already beaten DSA and SO. It is not designed for someone who just turned 50. Since it will be harder than DSA and SO, ZOS might say something to the effect the difficulty of this new content is balanced around characters having 100 CPs. They could also make all the gear that drops from this new endgame content require at least 100 CPs in order to equip.

Now whether they adopt something like this or not remains to be seen. My prediction is that IF ZOS wants to emulate how endgame progression raiding is designed in other MMOs they will adopt something similar to this.

TehMagnus

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightenment mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.

All that is fine, till they want to play PVP and they get owned by someone dealing damage so high they have never seen before, or till they want to do a trial and someone says: Sorry, you need 800 CP to come and this and that passive.

Assuming veteran ranks are removed from the game and the level cap becomes 50, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that future endgame PVE content (raids, trials) and future best in slot gear will be gated by having a minimum CP value. The difficulty of the endgame player content should be balanced against what the player base is currently capable of defeating. In other words, for now that means to do DSA and SO the difficulty is designed for VR 14 characters. Since VR14 characters will get 70CP when 1.6 goes live, safe to assume DSA and SO will be designed for characters with 70 CP.

Fast forward to summer 2015 and a patch that adds a new endgame trial or raid to the game. This new content is designed for players who have already beaten DSA and SO. It is not designed for someone who just turned 50. Since it will be harder than DSA and SO, ZOS might say something to the effect the difficulty of this new content is balanced around characters having 100 CPs. They could also make all the gear that drops from this new endgame content require at least 100 CPs in order to equip.

Now whether they adopt something like this or not remains to be seen. My prediction is that IF ZOS wants to emulate how endgame progression raiding is designed in other MMOs they will adopt something similar to this.

According to what ZOS said, gear should end up being seasonal, obtainable by clearing content and then new better gear would be released and the previous season gear would be easier to obtain for the people who couldn't obtain it before.

Following that system, gear will be level 50 and won't require CPs somewhere, it just won't be easy to obtain at first.

Then again in order to do that, you need to push out content >_<.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Assuming veteran ranks are removed from the game and the level cap becomes 50

This whole debate about CS/CP is blighted by ZOS refusal to explain what happens post-VR.

People describe the Champion System as replacing VR, even ZOS have, and that plainly isn't true. CS is a character progression system at best described as 'horizontal' insofar as characters have stopped increasing in level, so what the hell happens to the old VR content?

Everything connected with Cadwell's Silver/Gold is VERTICAL progression entirely defined by zones with specific levels and level-gated gear. VR2 is for all intents and purposes level 51, V3 is 52, etc. (remember VR1 is also level 50).

ALL of that is obsolete once the VR system is scrapped, because it IS the VR system. CS has no bearing on that, CS is about what XP is used for, it has nothing to do with the content that XP is being earned from.

I suspect ZOS aren't talking about it because they still don't know what to do. They can't just remove VR from the game, over 2/3 of the PVE content is founded on the VR mechanic.

You (anyone) could argue the VR gate becomes a CS gate but there's no equivalence, there is nothing about CS/CP that determines how a current VR4 zone can be balanced once level 53 is no more, for example.

Joejudas

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Assuming veteran ranks are removed from the game and the level cap becomes 50

This whole debate about CS/CP is blighted by ZOS refusal to explain what happens post-VR.

People describe the Champion System as replacing VR, even ZOS have, and that plainly isn't true. CS is a character progression system at best described as 'horizontal' insofar as characters have stopped increasing in level, so what the hell happens to the old VR content?

Everything connected with Cadwell's Silver/Gold is VERTICAL progression entirely defined by zones with specific levels and level-gated gear. VR2 is for all intents and purposes level 51, V3 is 52, etc. (remember VR1 is also level 50).

ALL of that is obsolete once the VR system is scrapped, because it IS the VR system. CS has no bearing on that, CS is about what XP is used for, it has nothing to do with the content that XP is being earned from.

I suspect ZOS aren't talking about it because they still don't know what to do. They can't just remove VR from the game, over 2/3 of the PVE content is founded on the VR mechanic.

they dont care about that 2/3 of the community....which is very clear from the 1.6 pts changes we saw.

TehMagnus

Joejudas wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Assuming veteran ranks are removed from the game and the level cap becomes 50

This whole debate about CS/CP is blighted by ZOS refusal to explain what happens post-VR.

People describe the Champion System as replacing VR, even ZOS have, and that plainly isn't true. CS is a character progression system at best described as 'horizontal' insofar as characters have stopped increasing in level, so what the hell happens to the old VR content?

Everything connected with Cadwell's Silver/Gold is VERTICAL progression entirely defined by zones with specific levels and level-gated gear. VR2 is for all intents and purposes level 51, V3 is 52, etc. (remember VR1 is also level 50).

ALL of that is obsolete once the VR system is scrapped, because it IS the VR system. CS has no bearing on that, CS is about what XP is used for, it has nothing to do with the content that XP is being earned from.

I suspect ZOS aren't talking about it because they still don't know what to do. They can't just remove VR from the game, over 2/3 of the PVE content is founded on the VR mechanic.

they dont care about that 2/3 of the community....which is very clear from the 1.6 pts changes we saw.

He's talking about the 2/3 of the solo questing stories that are part of caldwel's silver & gold, not the community.

IMO, they're just going to put all the VR zones content at level 50 and call it end game . I actually wish they let us interact with people from other alliances but I can't even think of a way to implement that properly since "main story" wise, you're not supposed to go quest in other alliances, just makes no sense, and if you can only reach the zones after you're level 50/finish main quest then all the content will be weak and if they scale the content to your level, then you can't be in the same instance as people from that alliance whose content is at the "real level"

Disagree though once again in calling CS character progression Horizontal. What does a level increase bring to your character? better character stats. What does every CP give you once you spend the point? better character stat.
you might need 10 CP(random value) to get as much stat increase as 1VR rank did, but it's still Vertical progression.

Joejudas

TehMagnus wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Assuming veteran ranks are removed from the game and the level cap becomes 50

This whole debate about CS/CP is blighted by ZOS refusal to explain what happens post-VR.

People describe the Champion System as replacing VR, even ZOS have, and that plainly isn't true. CS is a character progression system at best described as 'horizontal' insofar as characters have stopped increasing in level, so what the hell happens to the old VR content?

Everything connected with Cadwell's Silver/Gold is VERTICAL progression entirely defined by zones with specific levels and level-gated gear. VR2 is for all intents and purposes level 51, V3 is 52, etc. (remember VR1 is also level 50).

ALL of that is obsolete once the VR system is scrapped, because it IS the VR system. CS has no bearing on that, CS is about what XP is used for, it has nothing to do with the content that XP is being earned from.

I suspect ZOS aren't talking about it because they still don't know what to do. They can't just remove VR from the game, over 2/3 of the PVE content is founded on the VR mechanic.

they dont care about that 2/3 of the community....which is very clear from the 1.6 pts changes we saw.

He's talking about the 2/3 of the solo questing stories that are part of caldwel's silver & gold, not the community.

IMO, they're just going to put all the VR zones content at level 50 and call it end game . I actually wish they let us interact with people from other alliances but I can't even think of a way to implement that properly since "main story" wise, you're not supposed to go quest in other alliances, just makes no sense, and if you can only reach the zones after you're level 50/finish main quest then all the content will be weak and if they scale the content to your level, then you can't be in the same instance as people from that alliance whose content is at the "real level"

Disagree though once again in calling CS character progression Horizontal. What does a level increase bring to your character? better character stats. What does every CP give you once you spend the point? better character stat.
you might need 10 CP(random value) to get as much stat increase as 1VR rank did, but it's still Vertical progression.

you are in the best pve guild in this game....and im sure you provide valuable incite to pve content(not being sarcastic i really mean that). im concerned the cp cost to much exp...and the end game gear nerf is a big deal. it looks like people on the eu pts agree.

Berinima

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

CS is a character progression system at best described as 'horizontal' insofar as characters have stopped increasing in level, so what the hell happens to the old VR content?

If people honestly think that the Champion System is "horizontal" then they probably should google the terms "horizontal" and "vertical" progression. By definition, the Champion System is a steep vertical one. Claiming otherwise does not make this statement true unfortunately.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

Disagree though once again in calling CS character progression Horizontal. What does a level increase bring to your character? better character stats. What does every CP give you once you spend the point? better character stat..

IMO that's the wrong measure, in the CS system there is no level increase, so there's no level-gated gear .. which is exactly where we'll be when the VR content is removed, character cap will be level 50, not 50.1, 50.2 as the VR ranks had it.

So a level 50 character can use any item in the game, that IMO is 'horizontal' as no progression exists that unlocks gear.

Yes, there is still gated content in games like WOW, FFXIV etc. that have an iLevel mechanic, but I see no realistic way the CP system can be bent to perform the task of content-gating in that way, or any way that's meaningful: Rift's PA system, is two years old and CS was clearly in large part modeled on that, and Trion haven't attempted to use it as a content-gate.

Lied

ZOS_Sage@reddit wrote:

Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us.

I really don't see how they could be planning to gate their future source of content revenue behind CP thresholds when they aren't even planning on gating it by levels.

TehMagnus

Berinima wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

CS is a character progression system at best described as 'horizontal' insofar as characters have stopped increasing in level, so what the hell happens to the old VR content?

If people honestly think that the Champion System is "horizontal" then they probably should google the terms "horizontal" and "vertical" progression. By definition, the Champion System is a steep vertical one. Claiming otherwise does not make this statement true unfortunately.

Well I guess that's what the ' ' where for ^^.
And @Joejudas I totally agree there is a problem in the way CP are gained.

As for the nerfs, I'll wait & see what happens. I am against the ultimate changes but it's useless to debate any longer on it, concerns have been raised over and over again since the system was announced and ZOS hasn't listened. I still have good hope for the new synergies system and I won't mind raids where you actually can't negate all of the boss's mechanics through massive ultimate spamming.

As for our characters, It's normal to feel weak at first when the whole game has basically changed and you have to L2P again this is even more true for DKs who will most likely have to switch to stamina build to be most effective in PVE. It will take some time before we find the new "best stuff" and then we'll see if we have indeed been nerfed or if we're stronger than before. Saying anything before that in my opinion, is pure speculation. (And as long as everybody is nerfed equally I don't even mind being nerfed tbh). My only fear is that Templar ends up pulling the most DPS and that I have to reroll templar .

Joejudas

Lied wrote: »

ZOS_Sage@reddit wrote:

Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us.

I really don't see how they could be planning to gate their future source of content revenue behind CP thresholds when they aren't even planning on gating it by levels.

but scaling all the end game content to level....effectively making no more end game cotent is a bad idea also. Im not so sure they care about us end game folks anymore anyways.....but.......

TehMagnus

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Disagree though once again in calling CS character progression Horizontal. What does a level increase bring to your character? better character stats. What does every CP give you once you spend the point? better character stat..

IMO that's the wrong measure, in the CS system there is no level increase, so there's no level-gated gear .. which is exactly where we'll be when the VR content is removed, character cap will be level 50, not 50.1, 50.2 as the VR ranks had it.

So a level 50 character can use any item in the game, that IMO is 'horizontal' as no progression exists that unlocks gear.

Yes, there is still gated content in games like WOW, FFXIV etc. that have an iLevel mechanic, but I see no realistic way the CP system can be bent to perform the task of content-gating in that way, or any way that's meaningful: Rift's PA system, is two years old and CS was clearly in large part modeled on that, and Trion haven't attempted to use it as a content-gate.

Seasonal gear which will be obtainable through clearing content which will be prolly clearable by having X amount of CP to clear X difficult instance will most likely be the gated content.

In any case, armor progression might be Horizontal (it's more or less already the case anyways since armor prior 1.6 is meaningless), but character progression stats wise will still be vertical.

TehMagnus

By the way, having CP doesn't exclude adding levels that are not VR levels they never said level 50 would be a final unmovable cap (and I hope it isn't).

Lied

Joejudas wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

ZOS_Sage@reddit wrote:

Certainly leveling is one clear way to provide accomplishment, but I think with the Champion System we'll be looking at other ways to provide a great feeling of accomplishment. To be blunt, however, I think the days of gating content by level are probably behind us.

I really don't see how they could be planning to gate their future source of content revenue behind CP thresholds when they aren't even planning on gating it by levels.

but scaling all the end game content to level....effectively making no more end game cotent is a bad idea also. Im not so sure they care about us end game folks anymore anyways.....but.......

I would imagine they will still have non-DLC content that is end-game only, but I'd imagine they will focus their attention more on content that makes them more money.

Soulshine

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

FOTM does not win the prize either; players do. Skills within a build set are never the only consideration any competitive player or his guild worth their salt will take into account - one must look at the whole package and most importantly how someone performs with it.

Completely true .. BUT .. the elitist will first of all filter out those who aren't running FoTM so he'll never get a change to see how skillful a non-FoTM player is.

Your point is valid, in practice it rarely happens.

My "point" was that throwing out these type of labels at people who are finding faults in the CP system and attributing it to "elitism" has not to do with the issue.

If anything, it has to do with fearmongering and falling back on the stereotype that an "elite player" is just some jerk who only cares about what you wear and what is your build. Again, such a person is not "elite" by any stretch of the imagination, so let's please stop muddying the water with this.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

By the way, having CP doesn't exclude adding levels that are not VR levels they never said level 50 would be a final unmovable cap (and I hope it isn't).

But in that case scrapping VR achieves nothing .. if VR2 simply changed to 51 that would be all that's needed.

It begs the question what 'VR' is! If it's a normal vertical progression system what was the fuss all about that made ZOS decide to ditch it? If they remove VR2+ and make it 51, 52, 53, nothing of substance changes, a lot of heat would have been generated and umpteen months of content development lost to achieve no discernible change.

Soulshine

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

By the way, having CP doesn't exclude adding levels that are not VR levels they never said level 50 would be a final unmovable cap (and I hope it isn't).

But in that case scrapping VR achieves nothing .. if VR2 simply changed to 51 that would be all that's needed.

It begs the question what 'VR' is! If it's a normal vertical progression system what was the fuss all about that made ZOS decide to ditch it? If they remove VR2+ and make it 51, 52, 53, nothing of substance changes, a lot of heat would have been generated and umpteen months of content development lost to achieve no discernible change.

I think looking back on it, VR was really just a silly idea to make up for a poor way of story development accoss the factions. A lack of creativity if you will.

When I first learned that the map was locked down to race based factions, I almost decided right then and there not to buy the game since I did not want to have to keep rolling alts just to see what the story was about. Then I learned that "VR" would give me access to the other factions to continue the story. But I incorrectly thought the story would somehow be weaved together to make some sense of my "Journey." Much as I love our pot wearing silly Caldwell, god bless him, the story was not like that at all.

Had they taken a different direction with the whole concept of the alliance war, we could have seen a much richer story unfold across the entire breadth and scope of the map, including Cyrodill, and made the ranks meaningful to the story progression, but that isn't what we got. VR was just a way to "re-cycle" the story three times, and reduce the need for more story development let alone content updates - this latter being the main goal most likely to reduce costs and get "the most bang for your buck."