Why Champion System will Kill the game if it's implemented as is

Alphashado · February 2015

Berinima wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Ok. Well since the best thing you can come up with is "you're wrong", my conversation with you is over. Especially since you seem to be more interested in theory rather than facts.

I am very interested in facts, sadly you didn't provide any. If you still want to, please answer me this:

- Player A has 25k magicka without any CPs applied.
- How much does he have with 20 CPs?
- How much does he have with 120 CPs?
- How much does he have with a fully maxed out system?
- How does this affect his DPS?
- How much do the points that he allocates in other constellations like health and stamina influence his survivability?

Right, you don't know.

Q.E.D.

Neither do you. Or anyone trying to suggest that the CS is going to give anyone a huge advantage over new players.

So once again I supply this quote from the OP -
""I can already see the QQ posts of casual players complaining because they are unable, no matter how much skill they have, to compete against people with OP passives or OP damage, I can already see the QQ posts of new players when they come to realize that no matter how hard they try or how much time they invest in the game, they will never have characters as good as players who have been playing since the beginning of the system.""

Berinima · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Neither do you. Or anyone trying to suggest that the CS is going to give anyone a huge advantage over new players.

I didn't ever claim I would. However I am saying that it *could* and I am *assuming* that it does. And *if* that *was* the case then this *would* be bad for the long term health of the game.

And see, this is what this thread is about.

Valencer · February 2015

Berinima wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

The resource gains follow diminishing returns too. Tested and confirmed.

Muahahaha he said "diminishing returns"... ^^

Take a look at this:

Valencer wrote: »

0 points into The Warrior: 12495 health
12 points into The Warrior: 12956 health (+461)
24 points into The Warrior: 13177 health (+682)

From this thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149370/champion-system-stars-diminishing-returns

Now you can proceed to ignore it and keep on shouting THE END IS NIGH

Berinima · February 2015

Valencer wrote: »

Take a look at this:

Valencer wrote: »

0 points into The Warrior: 12495 health
12 points into The Warrior: 12956 health (+461)
24 points into The Warrior: 13177 health (+682)

From this thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149370/champion-system-stars-diminishing-returns

Now you can proceed to ignore it and keep on shouting THE END IS NIGH

Nobody is shouting this. Especially not in this thread (at least not considering its original purpose). What that means for a couple of hundred points we still don't know. Also this again is only a part of the sum. You get a bunch of stats and passives.

Fact is still, we don't know how big the power gap might be.

We... don't... know...

And again:

And *if* that *was* the case [that it is unbearable for new players] then this *would* be bad for the long term health of the game.

Alphashado · February 2015

Berinima wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Take a look at this:

Valencer wrote: »

0 points into The Warrior: 12495 health
12 points into The Warrior: 12956 health (+461)
24 points into The Warrior: 13177 health (+682)

From this thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149370/champion-system-stars-diminishing-returns

Now you can proceed to ignore it and keep on shouting THE END IS NIGH

Nobody is shouting this.

With all due respect... Are we reading the same forum?

Berinima · February 2015

We do but some people just don't get (or don't want to get) the difference between shouting "THE END IS NIGH" and constructive criticism that is pointing out potential problems of a new system.

Bouvin · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

crit for both took nerfs even though the values are not showing correctly.
i perceive all these stats as being nerfed except the spell damage which went up. Also i should tell you i had no points in any of the cp areas just to try and get the most clean comparison. I encourage you guys to discuss these numbers.

Pro tip. Disable the soft cap add-on on PTS for 2 reasons.

#1 - There aren't soft caps anymore so it's useless anyways
#2 - It screws up some of the stats (like crit) on the Character sheet.

Bouvin · February 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Can someone please point to the passives in any constellation that will give such a boost to any character that they will be insurmountably better than any other max-level character wearing the same gear?

Aww gee, like maybe the 12% Weapon or Spell crit passives?

Not to mention the boosts to stats from each point spent. Increases to armors, crit mitigation, attack damage, etc, etc, etc.

If someone has 500 points invested, and someone has 10 there will be a huge gap.

Not to mention, going from 10 points to 500 is going to take an insanely amount of time to achieve, much more than going from VR1 to VR14.

This just worsens the gap, if anything. People who play way more are going to be way further ahead than with the current system.

Joejudas · February 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

crit for both took nerfs even though the values are not showing correctly.
i perceive all these stats as being nerfed except the spell damage which went up. Also i should tell you i had no points in any of the cp areas just to try and get the most clean comparison. I encourage you guys to discuss these numbers.

Pro tip. Disable the soft cap add-on on PTS for 2 reasons.

#1 - There aren't soft caps anymore so it's useless anyways
#2 - It screws up some of the stats (like crit) on the Character sheet.

True enough that never occured to me. Cheers

Alphashado · February 2015

Berinima wrote: »

We do but some people just don't get (or don't want to get) the difference between shouting "THE END IS NIGH" and constructive criticism that is pointing out potential problems of a new system.

Constructive Criticism is wonderful.

However, "THIS GAME IS GOING TO DIE!" - is not. And it's everywhere you look. Including the tile of this thread. While I admit this OP, and much of this thread is well written and well thought out, most of the panic-posts are not. They are just knee-jerk reactions.

Joejudas · February 2015

They arent knee jerk they are based on the testing on the pts we have all done and analysis of how this effect the community down the road. Alot of the people you like to write off as tin foil hat folks play swg nge when they did this EXACT thing and killed it. If your too short sighted to figure out that defending these bad decisions is selfish and doesnt actually help anyone except zos and their wallet..well i cant help you

Dagoth_Rac · February 2015

When they made the solo Veteran content (i.e., Cadwell's Silver and Gold) easier over the summer, they decreased mob health by 15% and decreased mob damage by 15%.

Do you remember what an enormous change that was? Do you remember how much weaker the enemies felt and how much stronger you felt?

15% is a lot more than people realize.

So I think the idea that the power gap that will be introduced by the Champion System will be minimal or irrelevant is misguided. A lot of these differences that don't feel like much in isolation will add up.

When you are doing 10% more damage and taking 10% less damage and have 10% more stamina and 10% more magicka regen and your abilities cost 10% less and you have 10% more armor/resist and you do 10% more healing and receive 10% more healing and can block 10% longer and on and on ... it becomes a big deal. Both against other players and against enemies in PvE endgame content.

And these are not the differences between a fresh VR1 and someone with 3600 Champion Points. Many of these stars seem like they max out around a 25% buff. So 10% might be the difference between someone with 200 Champion Points and someone with 1000 Champion Points. Someone with 200 Champion Points is not a "n00b". That is someone with a significant investment of time and effort into the game.

seanvwolf · February 2015

Curragraigue wrote: »

They are removing the sub and allowing people to play everything not just PvE And not just lvl 1-50. You got what you paid for it was not a paid beta test.

They aren't removing subscriptions... just the requirement for a sub to play.

kewl · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

so i really needed to do a detailed breakdown of the stats since i guess people where to lazy to go look themselves and keep calling me a liar. When i took these multipliers on the live server i had all pvp bonuses with no food active...and i had food active on the pts...i didnt realise that at the time. that being condisered...the nerfs to health and stam are actually worse if you take into account i had the food active on the pts. thegear is the same on both servers. so here are the numbers :
Health 7.10
Magic 8.27
Stam 9.34
Spell damage 12.9
Spell resist 7.51
Magic regen 7.44
Health regen 8.3
Stam regen 8.24
Weapon dmg 9.66
Armor 7.33
crit for both took nerfs even though the values are not showing correctly.
i perceive all these stats as being nerfed except the spell damage which went up. Also i should tell you i had no points in any of the cp areas just to try and get the most clean comparison. I encourage you guys to discuss these numbers.

Thanks for taking the time to do this comparison @Joejudas‌ . It clearly illustrates the points you have been making.

Soulshine · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Seriously though.

- 120 Infusion Increases another player's Magicka Regeneration by (xxx) after you resurrect them

- 120 Arcane Well Grants 20% chance when you kill enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (xxxx) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5m of the enemy

- 120 Reinforced When blocking gain a damage shield for (xxx) every 20 seconds

- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds

You would boot people from your trial group because they don't have THAT?
Really?
All the other stuff is easily attainable. Especially if/when they reduce the required XP for point gain.

Yup, when comes a point when many healers in the game have Infusion, many DPSers have Arcane Well, and tanks have reinforced, I wont take people in raid who don't have the passives and I won't be alone. Why take subpar when there are people running optimal? It's always like this in MMOs.

Just wait & see, to quote Pythia: "All this has happened before. All this will happen again."

/shrug. That's just fine. There are guilds out there right now that won't take people unless they are using the latest FOTM builds/classes

I can understand requiring the lower level passives like Crit% increase etc. But if you are bugging out over those underwhelming 120 point skills, then that is no different then how it is right now. It's not game breaking. It's just elitist vs non elitist. Nothing new.

It is a bizarre irony that competitive players are so openly despised in the public game forums when every bit of information they unconver seems to be precisley the stuff that practically everyone, competitive or not, wants to have at their disposal to play the game, since yes everyone wants the shineys and to win. They publicly take the position of "no, it's all just elitist BS and we don't need that anyway to play," then all the while taking in the info like sponges, stamping on the builds, buying the BoE gear, etc. Hypocrisy at its finest if you ask me. The difference between "need" and "want" is a huge chasm and many are all to happy to cross it if someone else shows them the way. Preferrably the easiest way, so much the better.

There is a huge difference between competitive and Elitist.

The Competitive GM will inspire his guild members to do the best they can in order to squeeze the most potential out of anyone who wants to participate (within reason) in order to get things done.

The Elitist GM intentionally excludes anyone that wants to participate unless they are using FOTM builds and skills and/or they are putting out maximum numbers.

That is a discussion for a different thread though. This discussion is about whether or not the current CP structure will alienate and exclude new players in the future from participating in a competitive manner in end game content.

The answer is No.

90 CP will get you the most powerful passives in the system. Once you have those, then the difference between 90 CP and 500 CP is minimal. At that point it comes down to the difference again between Competitive and Elite.

None of these skills are game breaking and the ones above 30 pts are incredibly diminishing. So it will still come down to the build you are using and the skill you have at playing your character being MUCH more important to the success of your raid than whether or not you have access to the underwhelming 120 pt passives.

No CP required - Casual
90+ CP required - Competitive
CP MAX required - Elitist

On a side note, I don't despise elitist players. I just don't hang with them.

You brought the term into the thread, so do not expect people to not call you out on it.

The "elitist GM" in your description is also not "elitist," just dumb and has no relation whatseover to the dynamic I was explaining.

FOTM does not win the prize either; players do. Skills within a build set are never the only consideration any competitive player or his guild worth their salt will take into account - one must look at the whole package and most importantly how someone performs with it.

For many of us on PTS atm, that performance curve and how it is being affected is what present criticism of the CP implementation has revolved around, not about how to use it to exclude players. If one is going to stick to arguing that, then one is missing the point of the OP.

AS is, irresponsibly throwing out labels like "elitist" and "fanboi," in this manner really have no place in any of these discussions yet people seemed bent come heck or high water to make them about that and then no one ever learns anything useful since ALL feedback just gets stiffled by it.

Tankqull · February 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightement mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.

passives provided by severe steps is in no way a system with dimnishing returns. you either have the 30/75/120/(whatever further expansions will bring in passives) or you do not have them. if you do not have them any pvpler will hand you your ass over when he got them. and raidleaders are going to have them as prequesists for participating. people are currently bitching about 14 vetranks(14mio xp) of grind what do you think will happen when you realize you have to grind [9constallations *120 CP = ] 432mio XP (-X*300k XP [the amount of enlighted CPs you get while grinding]) that will become mandatory to have...
those passives are as mandatory as beeing vr14 now. you can deny that and claim beeing vr14 is not needed now nor will the passives be later on or be honest to your self.

Joejudas · February 2015

kewl wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

so i really needed to do a detailed breakdown of the stats since i guess people where to lazy to go look themselves and keep calling me a liar. When i took these multipliers on the live server i had all pvp bonuses with no food active...and i had food active on the pts...i didnt realise that at the time. that being condisered...the nerfs to health and stam are actually worse if you take into account i had the food active on the pts. thegear is the same on both servers. so here are the numbers :
Health 7.10
Magic 8.27
Stam 9.34
Spell damage 12.9
Spell resist 7.51
Magic regen 7.44
Health regen 8.3
Stam regen 8.24
Weapon dmg 9.66
Armor 7.33
crit for both took nerfs even though the values are not showing correctly.
i perceive all these stats as being nerfed except the spell damage which went up. Also i should tell you i had no points in any of the cp areas just to try and get the most clean comparison. I encourage you guys to discuss these numbers.

Thanks for taking the time to do this comparison @Joejudas‌ . It clearly illustrates the points you have been making.

like i said the numbers can be interpreted in different ways....but if you use the " x10" on everything it is a nerf. Combine that with the armor nerfs and the time it takes to get a cp...and its a huge time commitment needed to gain back lost character progress. Now some people will defend the decision and people like myself will criticize it. I simply point out that this new system isnt going to help improve the power gap complained about in the vr system....its going to make it much worse.

Spottswoode · February 2015

Berinima wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Take a look at this:

Valencer wrote: »

0 points into The Warrior: 12495 health
12 points into The Warrior: 12956 health (+461)
24 points into The Warrior: 13177 health (+682)

From this thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149370/champion-system-stars-diminishing-returns

Now you can proceed to ignore it and keep on shouting THE END IS NIGH

Nobody is shouting this. Especially not in this thread (at least not considering its original purpose). What that means for a couple of hundred points we still don't know. Also this again is only a part of the sum. You get a bunch of stats and passives.

Fact is still, we don't know how big the power gap might be.

We... don't... know...

And again:

And *if* that *was* the case [that it is unbearable for new players] then this *would* be bad for the long term health of the game.

Okay, let's extrapolate some here. We can permit it.

461(amount yielded by 12 point increase) / 12495 (original health amount) = 0.0368947579
So for 12 points you get a measly 3.7% health increase.

682 / 12495 = 0.05458183273
For double the investment, you get a 5.5% total increase.

0.05458183273 - 0.0368947579 = 0.01768707483 Difference between dozens

0.0368947579/12=0.00307456315 First dozen increase per point

0.01768707483 /12=0.0014739229 second dozen increase per point

0.0014739229/0.00307456315 = 0.47939262525
So about a 48% decrease per every 12 points.

Which would mean after 36 points, you're only getting 4% of the original value of each point.

Even if there are numerous perks to increase health, unless the warrior gives less health than other constellations, you'd only be getting 3.7% extra per every 12 points invested in each perk with diminishing returns in every perk invested in. So, let's say there are 15 perks that yield the same amount, you end up investing 180 CP for a 55.5% increase in health. Keep in mind, it will then take another 180 CP to get that total increase to 82%. And another 180 CP to get to 94%. Sure, you'll have almost double the amount of health, but you've invested 540 CP into it. The time investment here has got to be massive.
That's assuming there's even that number of perks that can increase health. With just the increases mentioned in the above post (Valencer's example), 540 CP would have already cut it's return value about half again nearly 45 times. (Which each point will be returning less than 2.8421709e-14 of the original value at that point.)

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

When they made the solo Veteran content (i.e., Cadwell's Silver and Gold) easier over the summer, they decreased mob health by 15% and decreased mob damage by 15%.

Do you remember what an enormous change that was? Do you remember how much weaker the enemies felt and how much stronger you felt?

15% is a lot more than people realize.

So I think the idea that the power gap that will be introduced by the Champion System will be minimal or irrelevant is misguided. A lot of these differences that don't feel like much in isolation will add up.

When you are doing 10% more damage and taking 10% less damage and have 10% more stamina and 10% more magicka regen and your abilities cost 10% less and you have 10% more armor/resist and you do 10% more healing and receive 10% more healing and can block 10% longer and on and on ... it becomes a big deal. Both against other players and against enemies in PvE endgame content.

And these are not the differences between a fresh VR1 and someone with 3600 Champion Points. Many of these stars seem like they max out around a 25% buff. So 10% might be the difference between someone with 200 Champion Points and someone with 1000 Champion Points. Someone with 200 Champion Points is not a "n00b". That is someone with a significant investment of time and effort into the game.

Okay, let's say the yield value cuts in half every 200 points, and that 200 points yields a 5% point spellpower increase. That would mean
400 yields 7.5%
600 yields 8.75
800 yields 9.375 %
With 1000 yielding 9.40625% increase.

Now, that's almost a 50% increase in yield with that much invested in to it. But the player with 1000 is only dealing 4% more damage. And it doesn't get much better the higher it goes.

1200 yields 9.71875%
1400 yields 9.875%
1600 yields 9.953125%
1800 yields 9.9921875%
With 2000 yielding 10.03125%

So even with 10 times the investment, you're still barely getting an extra 5%.
The amount of time investment we are talking to get to 15% or even 10% increases is astronomical.
Even still, what is 10% of spellpower? 100 spellpower for most people, with the new numbers?
I don't see the doom and gloom here.

StaticWax · February 2015

Nothing is a grind if it's something you enjoy.

So many ppl play these games for the wrong reasons...

Tankqull · February 2015

Spottswoode wrote: »

too much text:

Berinima wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Take a look at this:

Valencer wrote: »

0 points into The Warrior: 12495 health
12 points into The Warrior: 12956 health (+461)
24 points into The Warrior: 13177 health (+682)

From this thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/149370/champion-system-stars-diminishing-returns

Now you can proceed to ignore it and keep on shouting THE END IS NIGH

Nobody is shouting this. Especially not in this thread (at least not considering its original purpose). What that means for a couple of hundred points we still don't know. Also this again is only a part of the sum. You get a bunch of stats and passives.

Fact is still, we don't know how big the power gap might be.

We... don't... know...

And again:

And *if* that *was* the case [that it is unbearable for new players] then this *would* be bad for the long term health of the game.

Okay, let's extrapolate some here. We can permit it.

461(amount yielded by 12 point increase) / 12495 (original health amount) = 0.0368947579
So for 12 points you get a measly 3.7% health increase.

682 / 12495 = 0.05458183273
For double the investment, you get a 5.5% total increase.

0.05458183273 - 0.0368947579 = 0.01768707483 Difference between dozens

0.0368947579/12=0.00307456315 First dozen increase per point

0.01768707483 /12=0.0014739229 second dozen increase per point

0.0014739229/0.00307456315 = 0.47939262525
So about a 48% decrease per every 12 points.

Which would mean after 36 points, you're only getting 4% of the original value of each point.

Even if there are numerous perks to increase health, unless the warrior gives less health than other constellations, you'd only be getting 3.7% extra per every 12 points invested in each perk with diminishing returns in every perk invested in. So, let's say there are 15 perks that yield the same amount, you end up investing 180 CP for a 55.5% increase in health. Keep in mind, it will then take another 180 CP to get that total increase to 82%. And another 180 CP to get to 94%. Sure, you'll have almost double the amount of health, but you've invested 540 CP into it. The time investment here has got to be massive.
That's assuming there's even that number of perks that can increase health. With just the increases mentioned in the above post (Valencer's example), 540 CP would have already cut it's return value about half again nearly 45 times. (Which each point will be returning less than 2.8421709e-14 of the original value at that point.)

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

When they made the solo Veteran content (i.e., Cadwell's Silver and Gold) easier over the summer, they decreased mob health by 15% and decreased mob damage by 15%.

Do you remember what an enormous change that was? Do you remember how much weaker the enemies felt and how much stronger you felt?

15% is a lot more than people realize.

So I think the idea that the power gap that will be introduced by the Champion System will be minimal or irrelevant is misguided. A lot of these differences that don't feel like much in isolation will add up.

When you are doing 10% more damage and taking 10% less damage and have 10% more stamina and 10% more magicka regen and your abilities cost 10% less and you have 10% more armor/resist and you do 10% more healing and receive 10% more healing and can block 10% longer and on and on ... it becomes a big deal. Both against other players and against enemies in PvE endgame content.

And these are not the differences between a fresh VR1 and someone with 3600 Champion Points. Many of these stars seem like they max out around a 25% buff. So 10% might be the difference between someone with 200 Champion Points and someone with 1000 Champion Points. Someone with 200 Champion Points is not a "n00b". That is someone with a significant investment of time and effort into the game.

Okay, let's say the yield value cuts in half every 200 points, and that 200 points yields a 5% point spellpower increase. That would mean
400 yields 7.5%
600 yields 8.75
800 yields 9.375 %
With 1000 yielding 9.40625% increase.

Now, that's almost a 50% increase in yield with that much invested in to it. But the player with 1000 is only dealing 4% more damage. And it doesn't get much better the higher it goes.

1200 yields 9.71875%
1400 yields 9.875%
1600 yields 9.953125%
1800 yields 9.9921875%
With 2000 yielding 10.03125%

So even with 10 times the investment, you're still barely getting an extra 5%.
The amount of time investment we are talking to get to 15% or even 10% increases is astronomical.
Even still, what is 10% of spellpower? 100 spellpower for most people, with the new numbers?
I don't see the doom and gloom here.

the problem aint the dimnishing part of the cp system but the passives that come at some breaking points wich offer to much gain in one step.
get rid of them and either make armors worthwhile again or incorporate those gains into the dimnishing part of the CP system.

Vahrokh · February 2015

Wolfsspinne wrote: »

Even the summary is TL;DR

But don't mind you're wrong anyway.

Sadly, you could work very hard for all your lifetime yet you wouldn't be able to ever reach either Magnus in game skill nor ability to theorycraft.

He is right, I also came to the same conclusions (well before this post), it's just a matter of math. Notice: I had some strong litigations with Magnus in the past so this is not brown nosing. He's just right. And ZoS have proven times and again they can indeed fall into short sighted decisions.

Vahrokh · February 2015

Razzak wrote: »

I agree with OP.
I think they wanted to introduce a system that no player would be able to finish in couple of weeks or even months. And I like that. ESO's crafting research already does that. It doesn't allow anyone to reach 9 traits on a single item in a week. It's a good system that works magic in Eve, but it also has a huge potential problem.

EvE goes well beyond that. In EvE, you can prove to be fundamental at winning a 100 vs 100 players battle as a 2 weeks old pilot with a warp scrambler.
Because in EvE they KNOW how to create mechanics that reward old timers yet are not discriminating against new players.
Look at ESO: the horizontal features (ability to quickly enjoy advanced content with self made gear) have worked wonders. The vertical features SUCK. From VR system itself onwards and CP system will just be an "harder-to-deal-with" vertical feature.

Vahrokh · February 2015

Sharee wrote: »

20 points is about 8-9%.

Do you really believe you having 9 % damage will have a bigger effect on the inequality between you and him in PvP than other differences that are already in the game?

Just for example: You are getting 25 ultimate from every kill, he is not. This alone will have way more effect on the inequality between you than 9% damage ever could. And that's jus the tip of the iceberg of different factors that will make an old fart wipe the floor with any newbies.

8-9% is MASSIVE for certain mechanics like crit chance, because it initiates a "snowfall process" where benefitted abilities proc not-linearly more often.
In example: today's ultimates hugely depend on the ability to get them up fast, an handful of crit rate % of difference allow to get to the "sweet spot" where you can have an important ultimate up by the time the boss uses his next "bad-raid-kill" move.
In any given trial, a guy able to have his Negate up at every boss "bad-raid-kill" move allows to take 1 weak class (sorc) instead of 3. So you can get 2 better classes and greatly save on completion time and party safety.

Spottswoode · February 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

the problem aint the dimnishing part of the cp system but the passives that come at some breaking points wich offer to much gain in one step.
get rid of them and either make armors worthwhile again or incorporate those gains into the dimnishing part of the CP system.

Which would largely result from the investment of just a few points in each perk needed to climb up. So really the difference here would vary the strongest at the early levels. The diminishing part starts to set in once you HAVE all of the perks in the system you need. So, I'll acknowledge there's a heck of a vertical wall to climb.

But my comments were specifically addressed to the notion that players who have been around FOREVER will have some massive advantage. A serious advantage, sure, to start. But it really depends on how progression up the vertical wall goes. I guess it was kinda hard to see in that wall of text.

Edit: I haven't had nearly enough sleep and that was part of another mammoth. But I'll leave it as is for now.

Vahrokh · February 2015

Now for the records.

Months and months of "predictions" both mine and Magnus have (sadly) been proven right and ZoS proven wrong: from the VR nerf onwards.

So I'll make another two:

1) There's a future where any vaguely serious progress guild will only accept players showing "proper CP allocation and amount". If CP "progress" will be able to be linked even randoms shall demand to link "CP achievement" on this and that constellation.

2) There's a future where there shall be enough protests (expecially from PvPers, which shall be truly BLASTED by this mechanic) that ZoS will have to nerf CP passives effectiveness. And then the hell will break loose, because this time they are not going to nerf people who "worked to grind NN x VR levels" or "worked to grind 12 yellow reagents" (gear nerfs), but they will nerf people who spent RL weeks or even months to get those passives. And this could spell ESO's final demise.

After all, which attraction does a F2P title have, if you start it and get perma-beaten to pulp by guys whose only merit is to have started a couple of months earlier than you?
Which kind of solutions shall ZoS offer to those F2P new players? P2Win potions to close CP gaps months worth of grinding? In any case it'll be awful.

Berinima · February 2015

Spottswoode wrote: »

Okay, let's extrapolate some here. We can permit it.

Apparently you are better at math than me but I try to follow (and I don't mean that in any trollish way). To make this a little better to read I will cut some stuff out but please correct me if I am wrong.

Spottswoode wrote: »

Even if there are numerous perks to increase health, unless the warrior gives less health than other constellations, you'd only be getting 3.7% extra per every 12 points invested in each perk with diminishing returns in every perk invested in.

Mhm, just to make sure... Have you even had a look at the champion system? Because how your wording is I am not entirely sure you have. "The Warrior" is the *only* constellation that bolsters your health. It does neither give more or less health than the other ones, it is *the* constellation that gives health. Anyway.

Spottswoode wrote: »

So, let's say there are 15 perks that yield the same amount, you end up investing 180 CP for a 55.5% increase in health.

True. Well, sort of. There are exactly 15 perks that increase health. No more, no less. 15 more for stamina, 15 for magicka. You have a total of 1200 points to spend if you max out the system. And actually they are called "stars" and must not be confused with "perks". But more on that later.

Spottswoode wrote: »

Keep in mind, it will then take another 180 CP to get that total increase to 82%. And another 180 CP to get to 94%. Sure, you'll have almost double the amount of health, but you've invested 540 CP into it. The time investment here has got to be massive.

Exactly. But for the sake of the argument let's assume one has 540 points to spend in the entire system. This could very well be the case for a real hardcore player after a year assuming he would play every day and get an average of 1.287671 points a day [(180 * 3) - 70) / 365]. I'd say this could be a realistic goal for a dedicated player after one year. However you would have to rotate around the constellations, meaning you need to spend 180 in health, 180 in stamina and 180 in magicka.

Spottswoode wrote: »

That's assuming there's even that number of perks that can increase health.

So ehm again... By that phrasing... Do you actually know what you are talking about? There are *exactly* that amount of stars (not perks) to increase health, no more no less. Right now one might get the impression you are very good at math but have no clue about the system at all. I don't mean that in a trollish way, please don't get me wrong. It is just how you phrase things that makes me wonder.

I have to copy that part again here:

Spottswoode wrote: »

So, let's say there are 15 perks that yield the same amount, you end up investing 180 CP for a 55.5% increase in health.

So what you are saying by very smartly extrapolating numbers is that if one puts 180 CP in the warrior he has thereby increased his health by 55.5%, right? Ok, so because our hardcore player has to rotate around the stars and has 540 points to spend he has already 55.5% more health, 55.5% more magicka and 55.5% more magicka as a new player, right?

Spottswoode wrote: »

Okay, let's say the yield value cuts in half every 200 points, and that 200 points yields a 5% point spellpower increase.

Where do you pull these numers from? Is this an assumption? Who is talking about spellpower anyway?

Spottswoode wrote: »

That would mean
400 yields 7.5%
600 yields 8.75
800 yields 9.375 %
With 1000 yielding 9.40625% increase.
...

I have to cut it a little here because no one is talking about spellpower. I am assuming that you somehow translate the magicka gain from the mage constellation to a spellpower increase but I am not really sure. Please elaborate what you mean with that last part. But for the sake of the argument that is not even important.

Spottswoode wrote: »

I don't see the doom and gloom here.

I seriously believe that you don't exactly understand the system. Let's remember: Our hardcore player has after a year 55.5% more health, 55.5% more stamina and 55.5% more magicka than a new player (if I understood you right). So that is *already* a pretty big edge. But not only that he has a 55.5% bigger resource pool for every resource there is (and that as you would know also scales all of his skills, meaning damage AND healing), in addition he has sooo many perks. For example he has 12% more critical rating (30 point perk the ritual), he has 75% more armor and spell resistance from shields (75 point perk the steed), he snares his enemies at a 33% chance with a bash attack (10 point perk the tower) etc. etc. etc. These are only examples and these are ONLY THE PASSIVES. Because now we get to the "stars" he actually has invested his points in. You can extrapolate how much more spell crit he has (5% for 10 points in "elfborn"), how much more magic damage (5% for 10 points in "thaumaturge") and how much more magicka regeneration (5% for 10 points in "magician") he can have. Again, only some examples of the goodies he can get out of his 540 points.

So... Either you have no idea what you are talking about (however you are very good at math) or you are forgetting a lot in your equations or you just want to fool us with lots of fancy numbers. I don't know. But what you have extrapolated sounds like a huge power gap to be honest.

Dagoth_Rac · February 2015

Spottswoode wrote: »

So even with 10 times the investment, you're still barely getting an extra 5%.
The amount of time investment we are talking to get to 15% or even 10% increases is astronomical.
Even still, what is 10% of spellpower? 100 spellpower for most people, with the new numbers?
I don't see the doom and gloom here.

The problem is not spellpower. Yes, a 10% difference in spellpower between 2 players is not a big deal. The problem is that these seemingly small differences are all over the place in the Champion System. It is doing 10% more damage while also taking 10% less damage and having 10% more resources and using 10% less resources and regaining resources 10% faster and doing 10% more healing and taking 10% more healing and on and on and on. All of those small differences compound.

And that 10% differences is not a new VR with 1 Champion Point versus a grizzled veteran with all 3600 Champion Points. You are talking someone with about 200 CP versus someone with 1000 CP. That will take about 6 or 7 months to earn 200CP if you play 4 hours a night. Someone playing that many hours for that many months should not be that much worse across the board than other players.

In the current system, you are limited, essentially, by gear slots. You cannot be better than everyone else at everything. You might wear some gear that increases your healing, but that seriously limits your ability to gear up for more damage or more tankiness or more stealth or more whatever.

In the current game, you cannot wear 5 pieces of Aether and 5 pieces of Footman and 5 pieces of Warlock and 5 pieces of Healer and 5 pieces of Quick Serpent and 5 pieces of Infallible and 5 pieces of Elegance and 5 pieces of Hawk Eye and 5 pieces of Seducer and on and on.

That is the equivalent of what happens as you advance further into the Champion System!

People who have been playing 4 hours a day for 6 months and have 200 CP have been putting those points into the area they want to specialize it. And it is like getting the bonuses from a couple of 5 piece sets. OK. People will specialize in different areas. I will be better at some things than you and you will be better at some things than me.

However, people who have been playing 10 hours a day for 18 months and have 1000 CP have finished putting those points into the area they want to specialize it. Now they are putting them into everything else. Now they are approaching the equivalent of having the 5 set bonus of a dozen different sets.

It is like a game of rock, paper, scissors where if you play it long enough you can become rock, paper, and scissors!

When someone who has played the game for 1000 hours (that is a long time!) is worse than many other players at everything, that is a vertical progression system. And an extreme one.

We were promised a horizontal progression system. The Champion System is not that.

Games with extremely long vertical progression systems tend to become very unfriendly to new players, with a core group of long time players and very little new blood. Or they become Pay-2-Win with cold hard cash allowing new players to skip the vertical grind and jump to the top rapidly. Neither of those sound appealing to me.

Audigy · February 2015

Joejudas wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

so i really needed to do a detailed breakdown of the stats since i guess people where to lazy to go look themselves and keep calling me a liar.

Ok so you are a stats guy. You like to compare numbers and make your assumptions based on that. Please do some actual live testing too instead of just blindly looking at your numbers. I lost the last bit of thought that you might know something you talk about since the post where you said all mobs and bosses healths are upped and it takes 4 hours to grind one CP when you have been involved in thread that has proven the very opposite.

That tells me that you do not seem to even bother to go in there and test any of your claims other than "my stats are not exactly x10 like they promised".

Because myself and other people have personally tested it...and it does take 4 hours to get a CP. Maybe instead of using so much effort to try and disrespect me you should go check out the pts. And what thread proved that trials bosses didn't have increased health and dmg. Can you link that ? Cause I have been in trials on the PTS and it's dumb hard. And I have tested my single target dps on the PTS server and it's around 7K versus 1.4k on the live server. So yes that's a 50 percent nerf.

They have rebalanced the HP and Damage of all mobs and since you don't have any CP, you of course fail there.

That's what I was talking about for such a long time and nobody believed me.

You will need the CP to be able to raid or do dungeons, going into content with 0 CP while its balanced for 30 CP is suicide.

As soon you copy over your chars and have 70 CP you will faceroll the content

@TehMagnus good luck with your mission of trying to talk sense into people here. I tried it before and people didn't believe me. Now they can test it and still don't see the problems with the CS.

In the end, I am sure we players will be able to buy CP´s in the shop, else the whole system would never work.

Just think about it, you are a new player and have a CP gap of several hundred - it would take years to catch up, this just wont be happening if ZO wants to be attractive to console gamers. They would never buy a game knowing they are years behind the PC crowd.

That's why buying CP in the shop is a given, maybe 100 CP for 20 bucks or so.

Joejudas · February 2015

its still very very weak running with 70 cp.You cant face roll content with 70 cp. Im not going to to be forced to grind content that i have already done at the tune of 4 or 5 hours per 1 cp to get back the progress i already earned. Also the day exp boosts go on sale in the cash shop will be the last nail in the coffin for this game.

Sharee · February 2015

Vahrokh wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

20 points is about 8-9%.

Do you really believe you having 9 % damage will have a bigger effect on the inequality between you and him in PvP than other differences that are already in the game?

Just for example: You are getting 25 ultimate from every kill, he is not. This alone will have way more effect on the inequality between you than 9% damage ever could. And that's jus the tip of the iceberg of different factors that will make an old fart wipe the floor with any newbies.

8-9% is MASSIVE for certain mechanics like crit chance, because it initiates a "snowfall process" where benefitted abilities proc not-linearly more often.

You missed the point i was trying to make.

The point isn't that 9% difference is insignificant (like you seemed to understand), the point is that 9% point difference is insignificant compared to all the other differences between a newbie and a veteran that are already in the game.

In other words, if a complete newbie is facing a veteran in PvP, the 9% difference from champion points is the least of his worries. The veteran is wearing a full optimized set of impenetrable gear. He knows his class like the back of his hand. He has the alliance warfare tree unlocked, including all the powerful abilities and passives it includes. He has full stack of vet5 trispec potions, purple food, etc. etc.

By the time the newbie is advanced enough to be able to match all the above, he will already have enough CP earned to be able to close the 9% CP gap as well.