Is it just me that feels I'm Beta Testing Console Release and Paying to do so?

TehMagnus

Think about it.

Game was released in April. It wasn't finished and a lot of planed updates that make sence where, acording to people like like Paul Sage, planed since the begining.

I'm thinking about the ability for the trading guild to earn the "tax" money (which obviously was planed al along, just not implemented), the ability to bid for merchant locations (which was also probably planed since start seing how useless the trading system is atm), Guild Standards, Justice System, thieves & assasins guilds, end game content, Imperial City...

The item sets where clearly rushed too and next update is a MAJOR change to those. I personally see them as an atempt to buff stamina builds and nerf a litle bit the full crit DPS builds. Just think about what Paul Sage says about NB: We have implemented changes in 1.3, we will see where to go from there (and this looks like ZOS's general policy regarding change & balance so I know I'm keeping these legendary mats for when the game looks more stable..).

Since game launch, we have had weekly updates of bug fixes. Craglorn was added (incomplete since the next & final part of Craglorn will come in update 4) in order to give the people that rushed VR12 some kind of end game content. The FPS issues was reported in forums by ZOS community managers to be related to the anti boting system, yet, user's testing showed the FPS issues where linked to the changes introduced with particles. I wouldn't be surprised if the issues where actually linked to the particles but that they comunicated it had to do with anti boting so people wouldn't complain too much about it and thought they endured 2 weeks of unplayable game (beta beta) for which there still hasn't been any compensation just because of a visual update.


So since April, we have been playing a game that isn't finished or tweaked, that is still getting major content updates (content that once again was planed since the begining) and even more bug fixes.


In any case, i'm not the first nor the last that says the game was released unfinished. This is a genious move from ZOS: launch the game unfinished but playable, allow people to buy it and start sending money every month, get the time to fix everything well and, once the game is stable, balanced and all the functionalities have been developped & implemented: Release Console Version which could be a really hudge success and, if it where, would probably even bring back some of the original PC players that would have unsubed along the way of the end of the dev cycle.

Why pay people to beta test your game when you can make them pay to beta test your game?


I don't really mind if that's the policy, I believe this game has the potential to be great and that once it's stable it will be great. I just hope ZOS acknowledges this and makes a gesture to give the pc players the chance to go through those changes without being too much penalised ( I'm thinking about people that paid 200K gold to craft legendary gear or paid 50K just to redo their skills after the continuous nerfes ) since in the end, we are still paying custommers, and it's not our fault you guys couldn't keep your (probably unattainable and business dictated) dev deadlines..

Oh and make earning gold by questing (so bots can't abuse it) or w/e easier please. 300 gold for completing AA doesn't even cover the cost of potions ffs.

nerevarine1138

Yes, it's just you. Please stop with the ridiculous "lol rofl omg we r stil in beta guyz!" threads. The game's launch was as solid as pretty much any MMO launch, which means it was rocky. At 3 months, we're already running an extremely smooth game, and the developers are routinely tweaking features and adding content.

The game is fine. It's not in beta. Learn what an MMO looks like during its launch phase before you start this again.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO

No, you're just complaining about fairly normal growing pains, and using the console release as an excuse to claim you're somehow being exploited.

The console releases are inherently different than the PC release; hence the delay. The program has to be ported and this is not easy to do.

It would be ineffective to test the console release on the PC because (surprise) it isn't a console. So no, regardless of how you may feel, that isn't what's happening. All the rhetoric afterwards is therefore really unimportant.

TehMagnus

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Yes, it's just you. Please stop with the ridiculous "lol rofl omg we r stil in beta guyz!" threads. The game's launch was as solid as pretty much any MMO launch, which means it was rocky. At 3 months, we're already running an extremely smooth game, and the developers are routinely tweaking features and adding content.

The game is fine. It's not in beta. Learn what an MMO looks like during its launch phase before you start this again.

Usually those MMOs you speak of are more complete that this one in regard of End Game content and simple things like a trading system .

So was it nice to have a game launch without server crashes, without conection quees etc? Yup definitely!

Then again, with such an unfinished game lacking so much of its suposed content, it better run smoothly.

I have beta tested MMOs with less major updates during the beta phases.

Enkil

I know it's basically a 'paid beta' until about hopefully the 6 month mark. Realized it before early access was even over. Been waiting for the game for 10 years though so that didn't stop me from subbing.

TehMagnus

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO wrote: »

No, you're just complaining about fairly normal growing pains, and using the console release as an excuse to claim you're somehow being exploited.

The console releases are inherently different than the PC release; hence the delay. The program has to be ported and this is not easy to do.

It would be ineffective to test the console release on the PC because (surprise) it isn't a console. So no, regardless of how you may feel, that isn't what's happening. All the rhetoric afterwards is therefore really unimportant.

You're not totally right. Game balance (classes balance, gear, guilds, content) have nothing to do with the platform you're testing it.

Sure they have to be ported, but be asured that the version they will port to console wont be the one we had in April, it will be the tweaked one with craglorn and the updated content.

As for "It's hard to port and that's why there is delay", other games manage to do this just fine without any issues and make console & pc versions at the same time so not that hard.

Falmer

Yep, just you complaining really. No one forced you to play now. Why didn't you wait until the console release to start playing? Most games, and certainly every MMO has a breaking in period. You could have easily waited until this timeframe was over before playing if you can't handle the bumps.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Yes, it's just you. Please stop with the ridiculous "lol rofl omg we r stil in beta guyz!" threads. The game's launch was as solid as pretty much any MMO launch, which means it was rocky. At 3 months, we're already running an extremely smooth game, and the developers are routinely tweaking features and adding content.

The game is fine. It's not in beta. Learn what an MMO looks like during its launch phase before you start this again.

Usually those MMOs you speak of are more complete that this one in regard of End Game content and simple things like a trading system .

You don't need end game content at release. We're just now getting to the point where end game content is appropriate, and guess what? There is some. Content locusts that gun to max level in the first month should not be encouraged; they just create unrealistic expectations.

As for a trade system, that's a deliberate decision, not a lack of completeness. It's a good one too - players need their conveniences forcibly stripped away. It just makes content disappear faster, and worse, it decreases player interaction. When players have to negotiate with each other they interact. When they just search and click in the AH, they don't. The point of MMOs is to interact with other people, and AHs are contrary to that goal.

So was it nice to have a game launch without server crashes, without conection quees etc? Yup definitely!

All of which are much more important than "endgame content" at release, or auction halls.

Then again, with such an unfinished game lacking so much of its suposed content, it better run smoothly.

This game is not "unfinished". It was plenty finished for release. It just didn't provide the SAME TYPE of stuff at release as other MMOs in the past because.. it isn't trying to be them.

Furthermore, no MMO is ever truly finished, so complaining about an "unfinished game" is fairly silly anyhow.

I have beta tested MMOs with less major updates during the beta phases.

So?

TehMagnus

Enkil wrote: »

I know it's basically a 'paid beta' until about hopefully the 6 month mark. Realized it before early access was even over. Been waiting for the game for 10 years though so that didn't stop me from subbing.

Yah, I totally agree. Been waiting for this since oblivion, wont be unsubing, but don't like being taken for an idiot.

Hypertionb14_ESO

this topic again... just stop please...

yes there have been bugs and exploits... yes by the time they finish the console version many of these issues will be fixed...

but quite frankly this topic has been run into the ground constantly....

i would be surprised if the console version doesnt release in a horribly buggy state... the fact is that untill the console version releases, there has not been any true quality control on that platform... we have seen Zenimaxes in house efforts..

the fact they are putting the conosles on seperate servers is proof that there will be issues unique to it..


i expect when its released on the consoles there will be topics about "how did they not catch this or discover it on the PC version".. and those topics will replace this particular complaint topic...

Enodoc

magnusnet wrote: »

I'm thinking about the ability for the trading guild to earn the "tax" money (which obviously was planed al along, just not implemented), the ability to bid for merchant locations (which was also probably planed since start seing how useless the trading system is atm), Guild Standards, Justice System, thieves & assasins guilds, end game content, Imperial City...

All of those (apart from possibly the guild store tax) may have always been planned, but none of them were planned for launch.

Having never played an MMO at launch before, I was surprised by how well it appeared to go. Sure, there were those two 8 hours+ emergency downtimes, but apart from that I haven't had any major issues (FPS aside) that I wouldn't expect in any game release, MMO or otherwise.

theyancey

LOL, I started beta close to a year ago. What you are playing today is NOT beta. There have certainly been the launch jitters but you just can't test for certain things like the onslaught of gold spammers that we endured. Beyond that the game is about where I expected it to be at this point in time.

AvalonSkye

I think if you are unhappy you should unsub. Complaining how you spend your money is your concern.
There are plenty of other games out there - some are even free! Go figure...

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO wrote: »

No, you're just complaining about fairly normal growing pains, and using the console release as an excuse to claim you're somehow being exploited.

The console releases are inherently different than the PC release; hence the delay. The program has to be ported and this is not easy to do.

It would be ineffective to test the console release on the PC because (surprise) it isn't a console. So no, regardless of how you may feel, that isn't what's happening. All the rhetoric afterwards is therefore really unimportant.

You're not totally right. Game balance (classes balance, gear, guilds, content) have nothing to do with the platform you're testing it.

Those problems have nothing to do with the console release; both platforms have the same classes, guild features, gear, and content.

Sure they have to be ported, but be asured that the version they will port to console wont be the one we had in April, it will be the tweaked one with craglorn and the updated content.

So what? This is *** hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning. These improvements would be needed regardless of console release.

As for "It's hard to port and that's why there is delay", other games manage to do this just fine without any issues and make console & pc versions at the same time so not that hard.

Uh, yes, it is that hard. Other games also have lots of problems when trying to port. Not all games are created equal. Skyrim had notable differences between the port to 360 and PS3 because the PS3 was harder to port to. This is especially true if the decision to port was made later in the development process; in the case of ESO this was almost certainly true - we did not find out about the console version until well after the game was announced.

Heck, this attitude is one of the major problems in the community - assuming things are "not that hard" when one has no idea, or only a cursory idea (and yes, being a programmer yourself is merely a cursory idea) of what's involved.

It's like blithely talking about how aircraft carrier operations are simple because they didn't look hard in Top Gun.

reften

Are you having fun? If yes, than your answer is no. If no, than quit.

Fairydragon3

Nvrm not going to feed this thread

TehMagnus

AvalonSkye wrote: »

I think if you are unhappy you should unsub. Complaining how you spend your money is your concern.
There are plenty of other games out there - some are even free! Go figure...

I think you should read everything I said before implying I'm unhappy and what to unsub.

seneferab16_ESO

I find this to be an accurate description of the gaming industry these days. MMOs included.

Fairydragon3

seneferab16_ESO wrote: »

I find this to be an accurate description of the gaming industry these days. MMOs included.

OMG YOU SAW THIS YESTERDAY TOO!!!!!!, i LAUGHED SO HARD AND THOUGH OF THIS GAME

the op of this pic was referring to EA

seneferab16_ESO

Fairydragon3 wrote: »

OMG YOU SAW THIS YESTERDAY TOO!!!!!!, i LAUGHED SO HARD AND THOUGH OF THIS GAME

the op of this pic was referring to EA

I know, but couldn't help but giving ESO a thought.

NewBlacksmurf

Depends on your expectations. From playing the BETA much improvements have come but not prior to.launch. 2 steps forward and 1 step back has been the experience

YES this is a form of testing for the console version but just wait until the console beta starts. Then you can measure it.

This version is pretty much a hassle for me (not everyone) but using a gaming laptop that runs the game smoothly but server issues are causing a lot of headache with NPCs delayed appearance and "data load error" I've decided to wait for the console knowing it has to be smoother as quality control dictates such.

Vannor

magnusnet wrote: »

Usually those MMOs you speak of are more complete that this one in regard of End Game content and simple things like a trading system .

End game content was and is P v P and the trading system is exactly as planned. Maybe you're playing the wrong game?

TehMagnus

Vannor wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Usually those MMOs you speak of are more complete that this one in regard of End Game content and simple things like a trading system .

End game content was and is P v P and the trading system is exactly as planned. Maybe you're playing the wrong game?

End game content is Trials, high level dungeons for loot and PVP. For me, doing wayrest sewers over and over again just to get a set that gives a bonus to your whole party IS end game content. Trials are end game content. Craglorn is end Game conent.

"Trading system is exactly as planed" so why are they releasing an update that they say they wanted to implement since the begining? Because it's not as planned?

Maybe you know nothing of the game you're playing?

seneferab16_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

Maybe you know nothing of the game you're playing?

For some people everything has to always be 100% FINE and if there's any flaws or complaints they will do their best to LALALALA ignore and defend. Because if it's not 100% FINE then.. I dunno? it's not? And that is apparently horrific.

I love ESO and I want it to succeed, but no. Everything is not 100% fine.

I am unhappy about the lack of communication while having game breaking issues for over two weeks. Yes, game breaking. There was no way I could play the game the way it was; slideshow, invisible players and mobs all over the frikkin place.
I am extremely unhappy because of this. And the decision to not roll back the patch that broke so much for so many people. That was when I went from "Nah, it's ok, MMOs have issues at first" to "Yup, I am totally playing an Early Access game right now". I am not quite sure what would switch me around to feeling like a paying customer instead of a paying tester at this moment, but I am hoping to see it soon.

Good communication would be a start.

Tannakaobi

Many games charge for beta testing anyway, but I don't feel that way. If anything it's the console players that have lost out having to wait.

TehMagnus

Totally agree @seneferab16_ESO‌ . I don't mind suporting the game while it's under development and while it's getting better but I would apreciate ZOS to be open about it and to take into consideration the efforts that people make prior to such major changes (in such a short timeframe) and either warn about it in advance or implement a system that gives the players a chance to adapt to those changes without having to work for it again..

Some people thought and still think that the rewards don't match the effort you put in the game. What are they gonna feel like when all the thousands of hard earned spent gold are for nothing?

nerevarine1138

magnusnet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Yes, it's just you. Please stop with the ridiculous "lol rofl omg we r stil in beta guyz!" threads. The game's launch was as solid as pretty much any MMO launch, which means it was rocky. At 3 months, we're already running an extremely smooth game, and the developers are routinely tweaking features and adding content.

The game is fine. It's not in beta. Learn what an MMO looks like during its launch phase before you start this again.

Usually those MMOs you speak of are more complete that this one in regard of End Game content and simple things like a trading system .

So was it nice to have a game launch without server crashes, without conection quees etc? Yup definitely!

Then again, with such an unfinished game lacking so much of its suposed content, it better run smoothly.

I have beta tested MMOs with less major updates during the beta phases.

I guess I should send back the 200,000+ gold I've made through trading things. Because there's no trading system. I must have stolen that money.

And what about the game (aside from vague, ethereal concerns) is "unfinished"? Most of the playerbase hasn't even hit level cap, and those who are VR12 have plenty of content to do.

TehMagnus

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Yes, it's just you. Please stop with the ridiculous "lol rofl omg we r stil in beta guyz!" threads. The game's launch was as solid as pretty much any MMO launch, which means it was rocky. At 3 months, we're already running an extremely smooth game, and the developers are routinely tweaking features and adding content.

The game is fine. It's not in beta. Learn what an MMO looks like during its launch phase before you start this again.

Usually those MMOs you speak of are more complete that this one in regard of End Game content and simple things like a trading system .

So was it nice to have a game launch without server crashes, without conection quees etc? Yup definitely!

Then again, with such an unfinished game lacking so much of its suposed content, it better run smoothly.

I have beta tested MMOs with less major updates during the beta phases.

I guess I should send back the 200,000+ gold I've made through trading things. Because there's no trading system. I must have stolen that money.

And what about the game (aside from vague, ethereal concerns) is "unfinished"? Most of the playerbase hasn't even hit level cap, and those who are VR12 have plenty of content to do.

Well if you've gotten 200K gold only by puting items on guilds, you've lost a LOT of money . Because no, at high level the things you find are not in a guild, they are in game chat, which is not suposed to be for it (heck there isn't even a trading channel).

What about the game is unfinished:
- Sets (obviously)
- Balances in Skills
- Balances in classes
- Craglorn
- Veteran Mode (Paul Sage clearly states in his last interview that they never intended VR ranks to work as now, they allways wanted something more but the ideas they had at the time seemed like they wouldn't work.
- Guild Trading (not getting the gold they're suposed to get).
- Guild Trading in PVP (you're suposed to have access to the guild that owns a fort in PVP).
- FPS issues.
- DDOS attacks in PVP.
- Lag in PVP
- EU servers
- Buged quests
- Grouping system for VR zones.
- Game Exploits like Double Heal (detected in game since beta) or Sprint/Stamina potions.

"Most of the playerbase hasn't even hit level cap"

You shouldn't make unfounded statements, you have no idea about this since ZOS doesn't comunicate about it's playerbase. There may be more accounts that are not in VR ranks than accounts that are in VR ranks in total. But activity wise? Nobody knows, specially after all the people that left the game lately.
Craglorn atm looks like the most populated area setting aside popular towns like Riften. VR 5 & above zones are empty (I've been back there to get my skyshards since VR content nerf) since people mostly go to Craglorn to grind. As for lower level areas, how many of those chars are Alts of people that allready hit VR ranks?

and those who are VR12 have plenty of content to do.

Erm: no? If you're VR12, you've cleared all of the dungeons in craglorn and don't want to go to PVP, only thing left to do is two different trial instances for which you need 11 other players to come along with you. If you actually want a CHANCE to complete those trials, you need 11 good players to come with you which is even harder.

So plenty of content to do = 2 trials that you can't do when you please.

Awesome.

nerevarine1138

magnusnet wrote: »

Well if you've gotten 200K gold only by puting items on guilds, you've lost a LOT of money . Because no, at high level the things you find are not in a guild, they are in game chat, which is not suposed to be for it (heck there isn't even a trading channel).

What about the game is unfinished:
- Sets (obviously)
- Balances in Skills
- Balances in classes
- Craglorn
- Veteran Mode (Paul Sage clearly states in his last interview that they never intended VR ranks to work as now, they allways wanted something more but the ideas they had at the time seemed like they wouldn't work.
- Guild Trading (not getting the gold they're suposed to get).
- Guild Trading in PVP (you're suposed to have access to the guild that owns a fort in PVP).
- FPS issues.
- DDOS attacks in PVP.
- Lag in PVP
- EU servers
- Buged quests
- Grouping system for VR zones.
- Game Exploits like Double Heal or Sprint/Stamina potions.

In order:
- Working fine. They're tweaking them. Gear gets tweaked in MMOs, so this is not an "unfinished" product.
- Balancing is a constant war in every MMO. Blizzard is still balancing WoW at the 10-year mark. Again, not an unfinished product.
- See above.
- Are you referring to the additional content they plan on adding to Craglorn? By those standards, WoW was "unfinished" before Cataclysm.
- VR mode is fine. They're tweaking it to bring it more in line with their vision, but it's clearly not an unfinished product.
- This sounds like a bug, but I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.
- See above.
- Mostly fixed, and bugs aren't a sign of an "unfinished" MMO.
- What?
- Lag?! In an online game?! It's unthinkable!
- On the way, and most EU players seem to be doing just fine. Again, the product is perfectly playable, so this doesn't constitute "unfinished" in any sense of the word.
- See every other note about bugs. You seem to be confusing "finished" with "bug-free." Which means that no game has ever left beta for you.
- What about it?
- See the notes regarding bugs. Exploits happen. Developers fix them. Players find new ones. Welcome to gaming.

"Most of the playerbase hasn't even hit level cap"

You shouldn't make unfounded statements, you have no idea about this since ZOS doesn't comunicate about it's playerbase. There may be more accounts that are not in VR ranks than accounts that are in VR ranks in total. But activity wise? Nobody knows, specially after all the people that left the game lately.
Craglorn atm looks like the most populated area setting aside popular towns like Riften. VR 5 & above zones are empty (I've been back there to get my skyshards since VR content nerf) since people mostly go to Craglorn to grind. As for lower level areas, how many of those chars are Alts of people that allready hit VR ranks?

and those who are VR12 have plenty of content to do.

Erm: no? If you're VR12, you've cleared all of the dungeons in craglorn and don't want to go to PVP, only thing left to do is two different trial instances for which you need 11 other players to come along with you. If you actually want a CHANCE to complete those trials, you need 11 good players to come with you which is even harder.

So plenty of content to do = 2 trials that you can't do when you please.

Awesome.

I'm basing my statements on zone population as well as the general leveling speed of the average player. It takes a while to hit VR12. Most players aren't there yet, simply by virtue of the fact that most players haven't put in that much playtime on one character.

I'm VR12 and still haven't cleared all the Craglorn dungeons. There are plenty of achievements for dolmens, public dungeons, VR dungeons, trials, repeatable Craglorn quests, etc. Trials are not the only endgame content. Not by a long shot.

kitsinni

Think about it this way STOP if you don't like it.

Evergnar

I won't sugar coat it. The game was still in a beta state upon release. It's more of a beta 2.0 now. The delay of the console just further confirmed that.

Is paying for a beta like build a bad thing? Ya, it is, but what are you gonna do about it. You either pay for it and play it right now or you don't. It's not like it's unplayable (most days anyways). It has enjoyable content but can be rough and awkward at times (and occasionally frustrating).

That may sound a bit harsh but it's reality. It's not a bad thing to talk about the current state of the game honestly. In fact it's a good sign that this many players are willing to pay for a semi beta like build. It must have something going for it then. It certainly doesn't mean ESO doesn't have a ton of potential and a bright future.

As far as planning a beta like build at launch so paying customers could beta test it for them, I think you give Zeni way too much credit. If you've been playing for awhile then you know how many things were not exactly planned or thought out real thoroughly.