Why Champion System will Kill the game if it's implemented as is

Sharee

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightenment mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.

All that is fine, till they want to play PVP and they get owned by someone dealing damage so high they have never seen before, or till they want to do a trial and someone says: Sorry, you need 800 CP to come and this and that passive.

We are talking about a new player who freshly hit level 50 here, right?
What do you think happens to him today when he wants to PVP?

The champion system is the least of his worries. And by the time he is good enough to be competitive with old players skill-wise, the CP gap will already be diminished.

And concerning the trial example: i do not believe ZOS will ever release a trial that will be impossible unless all participants have 800 CP. Thus this is just a matter of finding a group of players who are not elitist a-holes and are willing to take a new player with them.

Joejudas

Most of the time it's taken out of context...on the " you cant come on this raid unless you have a, b and c". Most of the time it's because we know how much damage a boss will do and how much dps a player typically needs to put out before they are a detriment. It's just the math of it. Like when I run a speed run for AA I won't bring anyone below 2500 health because its dangerously close to making things be able to one shot you in AA. Or for example if you can't pull 1k dps typically I can't bring you for a COA speed run because the Ash Titan and Valkyn Skoria are typically a dps race. What is important is setting aside time to take people on training runs. With the new system I'm afraid it's going to create this crazy divide because of the time it takes to get a cp....and we won't get to train people because it won't be mathematically possible to take them in the raid with their stats.

nerevarine1138

Can someone please point to the passives in any constellation that will give such a boost to any character that they will be insurmountably better than any other max-level character wearing the same gear?

Berinima

Sharee wrote: »

The champion system is the least of his worries. And by the time he is good enough to be competitive with old players skill-wise, the CP gap will already be diminished.

Sorry to break it to you but the system sounds diminishing and it is for one star but it is way more vertical than people think.

Let me enlighten you (pun intended):

Let's say you are a relatively casual player and I am a hardcore grinder. We are both DPS classes and we try to compete. So we are first going to push our crit stat. Let's assume at 20 points the diminishing return slowly starts to kick in. I know, in theory it has diminishing returns from the beginning but honestly, go to the PTS and try. The first bunch of points are *more or less* worth the same.

So I have already my 20 points in the star and you have a hard time catching up. When I am at 20 you might be at 15. Now you get the illusion that you can actually catch up with me because for every point I put in the star I get less and less benefit from it. But you know, I am clever. I now switch to another star that gives me more magic damage. Now my DPS starts to grow again (adding to my already higher crit rate) and because I haven't put any points in that star yet I get a huge benefit from it while YOU have to deal with the diminishing returns now.

At the time you are finally at 20 points you then go "Awwww, man, I gotta push my magic damage now" and you are basically at square one. When you have finally put an additional 20 points into magic damage I decided to bolster my tankiness, rendering your efforts so far null and void.

In addition, every point you spend in one constellation gives you health/magicka/stamina not only giving me more resources than you have but ALSO bolstering my damage and healing abilities.

Because you are a casual player that "plays the way he wants to play" and I am a hardcore grinder I will ALWAYS have more damage, more healing and more tankiness than you. I win.

Diminishing returns are real for one star. But it's not only one star that is interesting for both of us, there is good stuff all over the place. The idea that you ever can catch up with me is a lie.

That however isn't that bad if you managed to get (and this number is a guess but I hope you know at what I am aiming) 400 points, I am at 600 and have literally no idea anymore where I could put my points. But before that you have gotten very frustrated and deinstalled the game. I win again.

I repeat myself here but the system is fundamentally flawed.

Razzak

Sharee wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightenment mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.

All that is fine, till they want to play PVP and they get owned by someone dealing damage so high they have never seen before, or till they want to do a trial and someone says: Sorry, you need 800 CP to come and this and that passive.

We are talking about a new player who freshly hit level 50 here, right?
What do you think happens to him today when he wants to PVP?

The champion system is the least of his worries. And by the time he is good enough to be competitive with old players skill-wise, the CP gap will already be diminished.

And concerning the trial example: i do not believe ZOS will ever release a trial that will be impossible unless all participants have 800 CP. Thus this is just a matter of finding a group of players who are not elitist a-holes and are willing to take a new player with them.

I agree, PVP right now already presents a new 50 player with a gap, but the question is, how much time (bolded part) will be required before you get to that point when you are on more or less equal terms?
CP system is looking like a system that introduces a very, very time consuming process. Are we talking here about a month or two, or year or two before you get to the point where diminishing returns are of little use to top level players as opposed to the one that is trying to reach them?

Sharee

Berinima wrote: »

So I have already my 20 points in the star and you have a hard time catching up. When I am at 20 you might be at 15. Now you get the illusion that you can actually catch up with me because for every point I put in the star I get less and less benefit from it. But you know, I am clever. I now switch to another star that gives me more magic damage. Now my DPS starts to grow again (adding to my already higher crit rate) and because I haven't put any points in that star yet I get a huge benefit from it while YOU have to deal with the diminishing returns now.

20 points is about 8-9%.

Do you really believe you having 9 % damage will have a bigger effect on the inequality between you and him in PvP than other differences that are already in the game?

Just for example: You are getting 25 ultimate from every kill, he is not. This alone will have way more effect on the inequality between you than 9% damage ever could. And that's jus the tip of the iceberg of different factors that will make an old fart wipe the floor with any newbies.

Sharee

Razzak wrote: »

I agree, PVP right now already presents a new 50 player with a gap, but the question is, how much time (bolded part) will be required before you get to that point when you are on more or less equal terms?

Between enlightement (which a casual player should always have) and diminishing returns, i do not think it will be long before the CP gap becomes manageable.

Anyway, that's the plan ZOS has. If it turns out the gap is too wide, they can always adjust.

Razzak

Sharee wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

I agree, PVP right now already presents a new 50 player with a gap, but the question is, how much time (bolded part) will be required before you get to that point when you are on more or less equal terms?

Between enlightement (which a casual player should always have) and diminishing returns, i do not think it will be long before the CP gap becomes manageable.

Anyway, that's the plan ZOS has. If it turns out the gap is too wide, they can always adjust.

True, they can and they will, if that happens. But how many of such forced balances will happen in the future? Remember, every time this will happen, top levels will not be satisfied that their time and effort are being flushed down the drain. It's just a feeling, but a powerful one.
How many times, before its becomes too much?

nerevarine1138

Razzak wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightenment mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.

All that is fine, till they want to play PVP and they get owned by someone dealing damage so high they have never seen before, or till they want to do a trial and someone says: Sorry, you need 800 CP to come and this and that passive.

We are talking about a new player who freshly hit level 50 here, right?
What do you think happens to him today when he wants to PVP?

The champion system is the least of his worries. And by the time he is good enough to be competitive with old players skill-wise, the CP gap will already be diminished.

And concerning the trial example: i do not believe ZOS will ever release a trial that will be impossible unless all participants have 800 CP. Thus this is just a matter of finding a group of players who are not elitist a-holes and are willing to take a new player with them.

I agree, PVP right now already presents a new 50 player with a gap, but the question is, how much time (bolded part) will be required before you get to that point when you are on more or less equal terms?
CP system is looking like a system that introduces a very, very time consuming process. Are we talking here about a month or two, or year or two before you get to the point where diminishing returns are of little use to top level players as opposed to the one that is trying to reach them?

Again, please point to the passive or passive combination that makes a player so much better that they will simply be wiping the floor with anyone who hasn't gotten as many points.

Razzak

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightenment mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.

All that is fine, till they want to play PVP and they get owned by someone dealing damage so high they have never seen before, or till they want to do a trial and someone says: Sorry, you need 800 CP to come and this and that passive.

We are talking about a new player who freshly hit level 50 here, right?
What do you think happens to him today when he wants to PVP?

The champion system is the least of his worries. And by the time he is good enough to be competitive with old players skill-wise, the CP gap will already be diminished.

And concerning the trial example: i do not believe ZOS will ever release a trial that will be impossible unless all participants have 800 CP. Thus this is just a matter of finding a group of players who are not elitist a-holes and are willing to take a new player with them.

I agree, PVP right now already presents a new 50 player with a gap, but the question is, how much time (bolded part) will be required before you get to that point when you are on more or less equal terms?
CP system is looking like a system that introduces a very, very time consuming process. Are we talking here about a month or two, or year or two before you get to the point where diminishing returns are of little use to top level players as opposed to the one that is trying to reach them?

Again, please point to the passive or passive combination that makes a player so much better that they will simply be wiping the floor with anyone who hasn't gotten as many points.

Where, in my post, do you see any mention of passives?

Berinima

Sharee wrote: »

20 points is about 8-9%.

Do you really believe you having 9 % damage will have a bigger effect on the inequality between you and him in PvP than other differences that are already in the game?

It is not only 8%-9%. In addition for every point you spend you are also bolstering your resource pools, meaning more damage and tankiness AND more resources to spend. Plus, there are several perks you get at 10/30/75/120 points. The more points you have the more it sums up. Also, that multiplies to the gear you might or might not have. As I said, the claims are true for one star but not for the whole system.

Maybe (only MAYBE) this is not very noticable for the both of us (in my example) but it is very well noticable for veteran players compared to new players. Way more than before. And if one would think that nobody grinds the hell out of a system like that he has clearly not played an MMO before. There might not be a problem shortly after the patch goes live but there will be a problem some months down the road when a couple of elitist jerks are sitting at 200 points and casual players have 50 tops.

That is why people that are actually testing on the PTS have asked ZOS to unlock all points in the system for the templates so we can actually test how good or bad it might play out. So far that has not happened.

But no matter what, it's a huge wall of grind for new players and whether it is that bad or not, the system pisses off a lot of people. That's what I meant when I was saying it's dividing the community. ZOS is just not very smart about it, as always.

nerevarine1138

Razzak wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightenment mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.

All that is fine, till they want to play PVP and they get owned by someone dealing damage so high they have never seen before, or till they want to do a trial and someone says: Sorry, you need 800 CP to come and this and that passive.

We are talking about a new player who freshly hit level 50 here, right?
What do you think happens to him today when he wants to PVP?

The champion system is the least of his worries. And by the time he is good enough to be competitive with old players skill-wise, the CP gap will already be diminished.

And concerning the trial example: i do not believe ZOS will ever release a trial that will be impossible unless all participants have 800 CP. Thus this is just a matter of finding a group of players who are not elitist a-holes and are willing to take a new player with them.

I agree, PVP right now already presents a new 50 player with a gap, but the question is, how much time (bolded part) will be required before you get to that point when you are on more or less equal terms?
CP system is looking like a system that introduces a very, very time consuming process. Are we talking here about a month or two, or year or two before you get to the point where diminishing returns are of little use to top level players as opposed to the one that is trying to reach them?

Again, please point to the passive or passive combination that makes a player so much better that they will simply be wiping the floor with anyone who hasn't gotten as many points.

Where, in my post, do you see any mention of passives?

You're talking about the Champion System, which only deals in passives. In fact, the entire point of this thread (for some) has been that those passives are going to so drastically alter balance that no new players will be able to catch up.

So again, I have to ask: what constellation passives are going to make such a difference that a player without them simply will not be able to compete?

Berinima

It's not one single passive. Some of them aren't even good but some of them can give you an edge in battle, like becoming invisible after a succesful dodge (or block? can't remember) or restoring health with a bash attack or magicka by blocking a spell.

Again, it's not one perk. It's the sum of it. While no one actually *knows* what happens when similiar builds are trying to compete but one suddenly has 50 points more, just by looking at the system it feels very vertical. You don't even have to decide if you want to go tank or DPS, there many good stars and they are in different constellations which rotate anyway.

But even when it's not so noticable among veteran players as some of us assume it's definitely very noticable if you compare a veteran player to a new one. Way more than before if you compare a fresh VR 1 Player to a fully decked out VR 14 one, that's for sure.

And again, while a VR progression is gated (what makes it easier to catch up) this one is not.

Sharee

Berinima wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

20 points is about 8-9%.

Do you really believe you having 9 % damage will have a bigger effect on the inequality between you and him in PvP than other differences that are already in the game?

It is not only 8%-9%. In addition for every point you spend you are also bolstering your resource pools, meaning more damage and tankiness AND more resources to spend.

Still, a drop in the ocean compared to other inequalities (coming from, for example, alliance rank that takes a very long time to get) that are already in the game.

Plus, there are several perks you get at 10/30/75/120 points.

There are very few high-point perks that are useful, not to mention game-breaking.

And if one would think that nobody grinds the hell out of a system like that he has clearly not played an MMO before. There might not be a problem shortly after the patch goes live but there will be a problem some months down the road when a couple of elitist jerks are sitting at 200 points and casual players have 50 tops.

That's where the diminishing returns come in.
50 to 200 point difference in CP (4x multiplier) will translate into maybe a 1.5x multiplier when comparing the actual stat increase those points will buy.

The only time a CP gap will be noticeable is between two top-performing players, where every even-so-slight advantage can mean the difference between a win and a loss.

For the remaining 99% of the playerbase however, more often than not the outcome of a fight will be the same as it would be without the champion system.

KerinKor

Sharee wrote: »

Thus this is just a matter of finding a group of players who are not elitist a-holes and are willing to take a new player with them.

Good luck with that in a game where guilds are a minor means of finding others to play with, PUGs are as hostile in this game as any other I play.

McDoogs

The champion system is not a horizontal progression system, it's steep, vertical, and gives hardcore grinders a huge advantage over people who do not grind CP efficiently.

I am a grinder, my character will be up there. I'm not complaining for me, I'm complaining for the health of the game.

KerinKor

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightenment mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.

All that is fine, till they want to play PVP and they get owned by someone dealing damage so high they have never seen before, or till they want to do a trial and someone says: Sorry, you need 800 CP to come and this and that passive.

We are talking about a new player who freshly hit level 50 here, right?
What do you think happens to him today when he wants to PVP?

The champion system is the least of his worries. And by the time he is good enough to be competitive with old players skill-wise, the CP gap will already be diminished.

And concerning the trial example: i do not believe ZOS will ever release a trial that will be impossible unless all participants have 800 CP. Thus this is just a matter of finding a group of players who are not elitist a-holes and are willing to take a new player with them.

I agree, PVP right now already presents a new 50 player with a gap, but the question is, how much time (bolded part) will be required before you get to that point when you are on more or less equal terms?
CP system is looking like a system that introduces a very, very time consuming process. Are we talking here about a month or two, or year or two before you get to the point where diminishing returns are of little use to top level players as opposed to the one that is trying to reach them?

Again, please point to the passive or passive combination that makes a player so much better that they will simply be wiping the floor with anyone who hasn't gotten as many points.

Where, in my post, do you see any mention of passives?

You're talking about the Champion System, which only deals in passives. In fact, the entire point of this thread (for some) has been that those passives are going to so drastically alter balance that no new players will be able to catch up.

So again, I have to ask: what constellation passives are going to make such a difference that a player without them simply will not be able to compete?

You've heard of WOW, maybe you heard of Gearscore, or in Rift with it's PA system on which CP is clearly at least partly modeled .. the PLAYERS will ensure this gulf between the 'haves' and the 'have nots', the 'haves' will whine about having to 'carry' the 'have nots' and refuse to do so: it happens now in PUGs, it will only get hugely worse.

TehMagnus

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Again, please point to the passive or passive combination that makes a player so much better that they will simply be wiping the floor with anyone who hasn't gotten as many points.

Quick non exhaustive list.

For templar healers:
- 10 Combat Medic Reduces the damage received while resurrecting another player by 15%
- 120 Infusion Increases another player's Magicka Regeneration by (xxx) after you resurrect them

For DPS:
- 30 Perfect Strike Increases your weapon critical by 12%
- 30 Spell Precision Increases your spell critical by 12%
- 10 Vengeance Guarantees your next spell will be a critical after you block 3 spells
- 120 Arcane Well Grants 20% chance when you kill enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (xxxx) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5m of the enemy


For tanks:
- 75 Shield Expert Increases the Armor and Spell resistance of shields by 75%
- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds
- 30 Riposte Returns 25 damage to the attacker when you block a melee attack


For Any player:
- 120 Reinforced When blocking gain a damage shield for (xxx) every 20 seconds
- 75 Shield Expert Increases the Armor and Spell resistance of shields by 75%
- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds
- 10 Retaliation Increases the damage of your next physical attack by 30% after blocking a heavy attack
- 120 Arcane Well Grants 20% chance when you kill enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (xxxx) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5m of the enemy
- 30 Synergizer Grants 2 Ultimate any time you activate a Synergy


For PVPers:
- 120 Unchained Reduces the Stamina cost of abilities by 80% for 8 secs after breaking free of stun, knockdown, fear, disorient or stagger
- 10 Spell Absorbtion Restores (xxxx) Magicka when you take Magic Damage = 20% of your health
- 75 Shield Expert Increases the Armor and Spell resistance of shields by 75%
- 30 Resilient Restores (xxx) Health when you are hit by a critical attack
- 75 Critical Leech Restores (xxx) Health when you are physically crit
- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds
- 10 Ensnare Grants a 33% chance to reduce an enemy's Movement Speed by 20% for 3 seconds any time you hit them with a Bash attack
- 75 Mara's Gift When killed heal all allies in an 8 meter radius for (xxxx)

Any smart PVE player will prefer to have people with the spell and weapon crit passives in his team, 12% is a noticeable increase of damage. Any smart PVE player will prefer a healer with Infusion and will choose players with infusion (aka who have at the very least 360 CP).

It's even worse in PVP. At equal skill, the shield passives and damage passives will give a noticeable advantage to the player who has them, allowing them even to potentially beat a other players who are better but don't have enough damage to break through the Shield Expert Passive or don't have the shield expert passive themselves.

You can talk about diminishing returns all you want (not you, but people in general). Plain fact is, when player B has reached 120 CP in the tree needed to get the Infusion passive, player A who already had that passive when player B started playing will have gotten 4 or 5 other passives that still make him/her a better pick in the party. For anyone doing end game PVE raiding or PVP, this should be obvious.

As for the people saying "what do you think happens when someone starts PVPing at level 50 nowadays":
Ok let's make a comparison and let's talk about VR14 since that is the current cap at the moment ok?

Currently when you hit cap at VR14, you have all the attribute points and skills you need to engage in PVP. You are equal to other players in the amounts of base HP/MGK/STM that you can give to your character, and the damage difference of morphed skills isn't enough to negate player skill. You can get a guild member to craft you an armor set or buy one. After you've done this, the only real gap between you and the other players playing at VR14 is skill. With enough skill and knowledge of your class you can take on more than 80% of the players and have a fun fight.

In the new system, you'll get to level cap which will be level 50. And depending on how long the CP system is out, in order to catch up to the people that have been playing since the beginning of the system, you'll have to grind grind grind grind grind CPS. By the time you get enough CPS to get the passives those players had, guess what, they will have new passives that will also give them an edge on you thus making new players be food for the veteran ones, regardless of their skill. This is common in games that are 5-10 years old, but it shouldn't happen in a game that is so young.


The only time when the "diminishing values" actually begin to level the play field is after every player has gotten the passive that make a difference and that is equivalent to more than 600 CP which at the current rate of CP gain, will take years, years of rage and inequality (in any case the system won't survive that long in it's current state).

Sharee

McDoogs wrote: »

I am a grinder, my character will be up there. I'm not complaining for me, I'm complaining for the health of the game.

Have fun grinding.

See ya in four years.

McDoogs

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Can someone please point to the passives in any constellation that will give such a boost to any character that they will be insurmountably better than any other max-level character wearing the same gear?

It's not the difference between 0 CP and 70 CP that matters, it's the difference between 0 and 500+ that matters when speaking about the long term health of the game.

Berinima

Sharee wrote: »

Still, a drop in the ocean compared to other inequalities (coming from, for example, alliance rank that takes a very long time to get) that are already in the game.

Have you been on the PTS? It's not a drop in the ocean, you get a lot more resources for one point. Please don't get me wrong, neither of us really knows. This has to be tested with a bigger pool of points to spend and we need to compare similiar builds DPS and survivability wise. Just by claiming otherwise you can't make your statement right.

Sharee wrote: »

There are very few high-point perks that are useful, not to mention game-breaking.

Did I say game-breaking? I don't think so. It just adds up to the already existing gap.

Sharee wrote: »

That's where the diminishing returns come in.
50 to 200 point difference in CP (4x multiplier) will translate into maybe a 1.5x multiplier when comparing the actual stat increase those points will buy.

There is it again. I point out that there *might* be a problem and you say "No, because diminishing returns." I mean seriously, I am not bashing anything here. I am saying 50 to 200 points *might* make a huge difference. While I can't prove it (but neither can you) and actually want to test it you are just saying "nay" without any prove. Also, an 1.5 factor seems high enough for me to cause a problem in balance. A difference that is very hard to compensate for a new player.

Sharee

Berinima wrote: »

A difference that is very hard to compensate for a new player.

What i am trying to bring across is that the difference from other sources than the CP system will be way harder to compensate for.

In other words, there will be very few fights in cyrodiil that a new player will lose that he would have won if the CP system was not in the game.

The total influence of the CP system is being blown out of proportion compared to the influence of other systems already in the game.

TehMagnus

Sharee wrote: »

Berinima wrote: »

A difference that is very hard to compensate for a new player.

What i am trying to bring across is that the difference from other sources than the CP system will be way harder to compensate for.

In other words, there will be very few fights in cyrodiil that a new player will lose that he would have won if the CP system was not in the game.

The total influence of the CP system is being blown out of proportion compared to the influence of other systems already in the game.

Armor influence is marginal (and armor sets are getting nerfed big time anyways) in a big fight and people clearing AA & HRC without armor says something about the influence of armor when clearing content and an Alliance rank = 1 skill point.

I really don't see how that is a bigger inequality than a shield that is 75% stronger or someone with 12% spell & weapon damage more that also gets a damage shield every time he holds block.
Then again we might not be playing the same game or you might not understand where damage and damage mitigation comes from.

Alphashado

Joejudas wrote: »

Most of the time it's taken out of context...on the " you cant come on this raid unless you have a, b and c". Most of the time it's because we know how much damage a boss will do and how much dps a player typically needs to put out before they are a detriment. It's just the math of it. Like when I run a speed run for AA I won't bring anyone below 2500 health because its dangerously close to making things be able to one shot you in AA. Or for example if you can't pull 1k dps typically I can't bring you for a COA speed run because the Ash Titan and Valkyn Skoria are typically a dps race. What is important is setting aside time to take people on training runs. With the new system I'm afraid it's going to create this crazy divide because of the time it takes to get a cp....and we won't get to train people because it won't be mathematically possible to take them in the raid with their stats.

I disagree, but that is very well said. Clear and concise.

What people seem to be forgetting is that this disparity already exists and is much more prominent with Vet Ranks. The difference in player performance is MUCH larger between V1 and V14 than it possibly can or will be with CP.

So you would still need to wait for that person to be V14 and fairly well geared in order to get the kind of DPS you want for your speed runs. So consider this: By the time that person is V14 and geared, they will already have roughly 70 (this may be off due to conversion change) Champion pts as well.

Also this disparity will drop considerably once Vet Ranks are removed. IMO Vet Ranks are what creates a gigantic disparity in the game, not CP.

So once VR's are removed, this entire debate changes dramatically. And unless things have changed, that is going to happen.

Zershar_Vemod

But I thought the OP loves to grind?

I mean, after that whine thread crying about how grind spots getting xp fixes and all..

Sharee

TehMagnus wrote: »

and an Alliance rank = 1 skill point.

And unlocked alliance warfare skill lines.

Also, 75% stronger shield means the armor bonus of shield(the item you wear in your left hand) is 75% stronger, not that your hardened ward is 75% stronger.

Also: If there is a player who has all these champion abilities you mention(which means he's been playing for years), and he is facing a player without them (which means a newbie) - do you really think the fight would have a different outcome if the champion system was not in the game?

TehMagnus

Alphashado wrote: »

Joejudas wrote: »

Most of the time it's taken out of context...on the " you cant come on this raid unless you have a, b and c". Most of the time it's because we know how much damage a boss will do and how much dps a player typically needs to put out before they are a detriment. It's just the math of it. Like when I run a speed run for AA I won't bring anyone below 2500 health because its dangerously close to making things be able to one shot you in AA. Or for example if you can't pull 1k dps typically I can't bring you for a COA speed run because the Ash Titan and Valkyn Skoria are typically a dps race. What is important is setting aside time to take people on training runs. With the new system I'm afraid it's going to create this crazy divide because of the time it takes to get a cp....and we won't get to train people because it won't be mathematically possible to take them in the raid with their stats.

I disagree, but that is very well said. Clear and concise.

What people seem to be forgetting is that this disparity already exists and is much more prominent with Vet Ranks. The difference in player performance is MUCH larger between V1 and V14 than it possibly can or will be with CP.

So you would still need to wait for that person to be V14 and fairly well geared in order to get the kind of DPS you want for your speed runs. So consider this: By the time that person is V14 and geared, they will already have roughly 70 (this may be off due to conversion change) Champion pts as well.

Also this disparity will drop considerably once Vet Ranks are removed. IMO Vet Ranks are what creates a gigantic disparity in the game, not CP.

So once VR's are removed, this entire debate changes dramatically. And unless things have changed, that is going to happen.

Except getting from VR1 to VR14 doesn't take years and while you get to VR14, people who are at VR14 don't keep increasing their stats. With champion system, while you get from "theoretical VR1 to VR14", the guy at VR14 will be at VR 28 and with the passives, he'll be as strong as a VR35. The only moment when the diminishing returns actually begin to matter is when you are VR200 and the guy that was in front of you is VR 250 because you all have the passives unlocked and the extra points that you get from CP into your stats give marginal increases.

technohic

Yeah, my big problem with the champion system is that it is endless. The gap probably won't be big at first even if someone is out grinding points. It's a year or two down the road where I see new players come in and be way behind. A year behind in fact.

Really; they should have never have nerfed any stats in relation to the bloat that is in 1.6 nor the armor or anything else they nerfed since they were supposedly touching every part of the game to match with the new system, and the champion system should have been a true horizontal progression system maybe providing convenience perks like account wide mounts and XP bonuses for alts to level and maybe account wide crafting and gathering. Maybe some storage space, etc.

If its going to be slow in infinite; they might as well had stuck to VR levels which at least plateaued for a while in between level increases providing people some time to catch up. As much as I hate that, all they had to do there is slow down how often they were bumping stuff. New content shouldn't have to be higher VR levels to be more challenging nor should new gear need it.

TehMagnus

Sharee wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

and an Alliance rank = 1 skill point.

And unlocked alliance warfare skill lines.

Also, 75% stronger shield means the armor bonus of shield(the item you wear in your left hand) is 75% stronger, not that your hardened ward is 75% stronger.

Also: If there is a player who has all these champion abilities you mention(which means he's been playing for years), and he is facing a player without them (which means a newbie) - do you really think the fight would have a different outcome if the champion system was not in the game?

You can play for years and be a terrible player but still win because you are stronger than the other player.

As for the alliance skill lines it's true I forgot about them, then again, the interesting ones ca be gotten at low PVP levels and any dedicated PVPer gets them quite fast and in any case, the new player even if he tries hard will never manage to be equal to the veteran one. With the current system, you could start & level up and in a couple of months with a bit of skill you could be better than a veteran player, this won't be the case with CP.

TehMagnus

Zershar_Vemod wrote: »

But I thought the OP loves to grind?

I mean, after that whine thread crying about how grind spots getting xp fixes and all..

It's ok, I found a grinding spot that gives 600K xp per hour atm and I'll be sure as hell amongst the first to grind CP in the most efficient way when Champion System goes live .

Nevertheless, as I stated in my OP, I care about the game, and I'll be the one telling people "sorry, you need this and that passive to play with us", which I do because it's a necessity to be competitive, not because I like it, thus I'd rather not do it and have many players playing the game and the game not failing and going P2W.