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Why Champion System will Kill the game if it's implemented as is
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bertenburnyb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
so i really needed to do a detailed breakdown of the stats since i guess people where to lazy to go look themselves and keep calling me a liar. When i took these multipliers on the live server i had all pvp bonuses with no food active...and i had food active on the pts...i didnt realise that at the time. that being condisered...the nerfs to health and stam are actually worse if you take into account i had the food active on the pts. thegear is the same on both servers. so here are the numbers :
Health 7.10
Magic 8.27
Stam 9.34
Spell damage 12.9
Spell resist 7.51
Magic regen 7.44
Health regen 8.3
Stam regen 8.24
Weapon dmg 9.66
Armor 7.33
crit for both took nerfs even though the values are not showing correctly.
i perceive all these stats as being nerfed except the spell damage which went up. Also i should tell you i had no points in any of the cp areas just to try and get the most clean comparison. I encourage you guys to discuss these numbers.
remove the last 0 of every stat on PTS and see how we got nerfed,
and now we can play 1000 of hours to get our stats back via CP
tnx Zos .... -_-
Haze Ramoran Dunmer Dragonknight Tank/Dps – Smoked-Da-Herb Saxheel Templar Tank/Healer
Red Diamond, Protect us 'til the end (EU EP Thorn)1 -
Berinima✭✭✭
Sorry, I really don't want to argue with you but seriously dude... If you put 400 points in a system like that as an example you get these perks. There is no need to define at what point exactly something becomes OP. It's not a matter of "becoming OP" it's a power gap. Someone who has that in half a year or a year from now has a huge advantage over a new player. How could one ever argue that?Because you don't get to define the exact % at which something becomes OP for anyone but yourself? How is this surprising considering you have a thread full of people disagreeing with eachother on that point?
Edited by Berinima on February 3, 2015 4:31PM2 -
Lied✭✭✭
Like I said, there's no denying that a gap exists.Sorry, I really don't want to argue with you but seriously dude... If you put 400 points in a system like that as an example you get these perks. There is no need to define at what point exactly something becomes OP. It's not a matter of "becoming OP" it's a power gap.
That's the part that we're disagreeing on. I just don't think the CP stars I've seen amount to a "huge advantage". The gap isn't significant to me or anyone else that's said it's not that big of a deal. Care to go around in a circle one more time?Someone who has that in half a year or a year from now has a huge advantage over a new player. How could one ever argue that?3 -
Berinima✭✭✭
That brings us still back to the question: "You honestly don't think that 20 perks consisting of 10% more crit, 10% more spell damage, 10% more healing etc. etc. etc. are not that much of a big deal?" Ok then...The gap isn't significant to me or anyone else that's said it's not that big of a deal.
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Lied✭✭✭
No I don't, especially considering the limited amount of time it's going to take new players to even dip their feet in the CP system for some of the biggest gains.
That brings us still back to the question: "You honestly don't think that 20 perks consisting of 10% more crit, 10% more spell damage, 10% more healing etc. etc. etc. are not that much of a big deal?" Ok then...The gap isn't significant to me or anyone else that's said it's not that big of a deal.
I'd wager that the tiers of seasonal gear that will be released will have a much more noticeable impact on your character.
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zward887_ESO✭✭✭I wouldn't worry too much. XP boosters and enlightenment boosters will make their way to the cash shop soon as a way for new players to catch up to veterans. Also, after 120 points in any one tree you've pretty much got 85% of the power you can get. It probably needs some iteration to tweak some of the stats but otherwise its really not that bad.
Also, this kind of endless progression at least gives us all something to do while we wait for months for new content. Its got more pros than cons and is overall good for the game in my opinion.2 -
RazielSR✭✭✭✭✭Id like to see how many neveranines defending this whole grinding cp is,will be playing end of this year. It will be cool to read all the transformations once they see the reality. And the "apologies, you were right".3 -
Dragath✭✭✭✭the worst part, in my opinion, is the fact that ZOS knows they can not keep up with playable content, so instead of good content released regularly, they put in a system that lets you grow your character through endless grinding, thus creating the illusion of content.3
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RazielSR✭✭✭✭✭the worst part, in my opinion, is the fact that ZOS knows they can not keep up with playable content, so instead of good content released regularly, they put in a system that lets you grow your character through endless grinding, thus creating the illusion of content.
But hey! Thats a lie! We are trolls and cant see the reality.3 -
OrangeTheCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭snip
Players who felt they finally had finished the game and where at the top level, had to level 2 or 4 extra levels to get a couple hundred HP/MGK/STM and be once again on top. I must admit I never understood those complains since 4 levels is nothing if you compare them to games that increase the cap from level 50 to 60, 75, 80, 90, 100, 120 over time as new content comes.
snip
I don't think statements like this are entirely accurate. You cannot directly compare VR levels to non-VR levels. Caldwell's Gold/Silver each comprise about 5 VR levels or so. Since each of those Caldwell's Gold/Silver quests consists of a faction's entire leveling zones, those 5 or so VR levels roughly translates to 50 normal levels. People objected to doing effectively 100 more normal levels worth of VR leveling and many resorted to Craglorn grinding (back when that worked).
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Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
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It is a bizarre irony that competitive players are so openly despised in the public game forums when every bit of information they unconver seems to be precisley the stuff that practically everyone, competitive or not, wants to have at their disposal to play the game, since yes everyone wants the shineys and to win. They publicly take the position of "no, it's all just elitist BS and we don't need that anyway to play," then all the while taking in the info like sponges, stamping on the builds, buying the BoE gear, etc. Hypocrisy at its finest if you ask me. The difference between "need" and "want" is a huge chasm and many are all to happy to cross it if someone else shows them the way. Preferrably the easiest way, so much the better.Alphashado wrote: »Alphashado wrote: »Seriously though.
- 120 Infusion Increases another player's Magicka Regeneration by (xxx) after you resurrect them
- 120 Arcane Well Grants 20% chance when you kill enemy of opening an Arcane Well, which restores (xxxx) Magicka to you and any allies within 2.5m of the enemy
- 120 Reinforced When blocking gain a damage shield for (xxx) every 20 seconds
- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds
You would boot people from your trial group because they don't have THAT?
Really?
All the other stuff is easily attainable. Especially if/when they reduce the required XP for point gain.
Yup, when comes a point when many healers in the game have Infusion, many DPSers have Arcane Well, and tanks have reinforced, I wont take people in raid who don't have the passives and I won't be alone. Why take subpar when there are people running optimal? It's always like this in MMOs.
Just wait & see, to quote Pythia: "All this has happened before. All this will happen again."
/shrug. That's just fine. There are guilds out there right now that won't take people unless they are using the latest FOTM builds/classes
I can understand requiring the lower level passives like Crit% increase etc. But if you are bugging out over those underwhelming 120 point skills, then that is no different then how it is right now. It's not game breaking. It's just elitist vs non elitist. Nothing new.
There is a huge difference between competitive and Elitist.
The Competitive GM will inspire his guild members to do the best they can in order to squeeze the most potential out of anyone who wants to participate (within reason) in order to get things done.
The Elitist GM intentionally excludes anyone that wants to participate unless they are using FOTM builds and skills and/or they are putting out maximum numbers.
That is a discussion for a different thread though. This discussion is about whether or not the current CP structure will alienate and exclude new players in the future from participating in a competitive manner in end game content.
The answer is No.
90 CP will get you the most powerful passives in the system. Once you have those, then the difference between 90 CP and 500 CP is minimal. At that point it comes down to the difference again between Competitive and Elite.
None of these skills are game breaking and the ones above 30 pts are incredibly diminishing. So it will still come down to the build you are using and the skill you have at playing your character being MUCH more important to the success of your raid than whether or not you have access to the underwhelming 120 pt passives.
No CP required - Casual
90+ CP required - Competitive
CP MAX required - Elitist
On a side note, I don't despise elitist players. I just don't hang with them.
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Berinima✭✭✭
I am not quite sure why I even bother to answer that, but... Why do people think the passives are the only ones to grab? You realize that every point you are allocating bolsters your resources... Also there are so many stars that benefit your build. The difference is in no way minimal.Alphashado wrote: »90 CP will get you the most powerful passives in the system. Once you have those, then the difference between 90 CP and 500 CP is minimal.
With the 70 points you get for having a VR 14 character you are nowhere near the build you would like to have. If that claim was true that would render the progression totally pointless and that is not the case. There is not only one constellation that interests you. There is good stuff for every role all over the place.
Anyway, I am hoping that ZOS reacts to my request so this circle of assumption can end.
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Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
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I am not quite sure why I even bother to answer that, but... Why do people think the passives are the only ones to grab? You realize that every point you are allocating bolsters your resources... Also there are so many stars that benefit your build. The difference is in no way minimal.Alphashado wrote: »90 CP will get you the most powerful passives in the system. Once you have those, then the difference between 90 CP and 500 CP is minimal.
With the 70 points you get for having a VR 14 character you are nowhere near the build you would like to have. If that claim was true that would render the progression totally pointless and that is not the case. There is not only one constellation that interests you. There is good stuff for every role all over the place.
Anyway, I am hoping that ZOS reacts to my request so this circle of assumption can end.
Well of course it is all useful. This thread isn't about whether it's useful or not, it's about whether or not the skills are so powerful that someone with MAX CP will be godlike compared to someone with 100 CP. The answer is a resounding NO. They put the most powerful CP skills at the bottom of the trees just for this reason.
Edited by Alphashado on February 3, 2015 6:28PM3 -
Berinima✭✭✭
No, that is not what the thread is about AT ALL.Alphashado wrote: »Well of course it is all useful. This thread isn't about whether it's useful or not, it's about whether or not the skills are so powerful that someone with MAX CP will be godlike compared to someone with 100 CP. The answer is a resounding NO.1 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oh, and also you can't even know whether that statement is true or not.
Umm yes. Yes you can. We all have access to the CP skills and we can see what is listed there. It's pretty easy to pick out the ones that will effect your character's performance more so than other ones.
Perhaps you should read the OP again.
No, that is not what the thread is about AT ALL.Alphashado wrote: »Well of course it is all useful. This thread isn't about whether it's useful or not, it's about whether or not the skills are so powerful that someone with MAX CP will be godlike compared to someone with 100 CP. The answer is a resounding NO.
Edited by Alphashado on February 3, 2015 6:33PM0 -
Berinima✭✭✭Umm no. No you can't. You have no idea how the system behaves at higher levels regarding diminishing returns to one star and the resource pool it bolsters. You only know at the moment how much you can get out of 0-25 points. You have literally no idea at all how much magicka you will have based on let's say a 25k base pool with 120 points in "The Atronarch" or in addition120 in every other of the two magicka based constellation. Same goes for health and stamina which is nothing you don't need at all even if magicka might be your main resource. You don't know how much your skills scale by doing so. Or your survivability. You don't know yet how every other combat relevant passive performs. So I am sorry Sir, but you are wrong with that statement.1
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Berinima✭✭✭
I don't need to. It's about how a semi-vertical progression system without gates can hurt the healthiness of the game and why a horizontal approach is the better way to go. "Being godlike compared to someone with 100 CP" is nothing that is remotely mentioned in the OP. Maybe you should read again, because sorry Sir, but you are very incorrect again.Alphashado wrote: »Perhaps you should read the OP again.
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Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, I'll be enjoying the new progression when it hits Live. Only thing left to do is removing vet ranks.
Kind of done with all this doom and gloom.I am not quite sure why I even bother to answer that, but... Why do people think the passives are the only ones to grab? You realize that every point you are allocating bolsters your resources... Also there are so many stars that benefit your build. The difference is in no way minimal.
The resource gains follow diminishing returns too. Tested and confirmed.3 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Umm no. No you can't. You have no idea how the system behaves at higher levels regarding diminishing returns to one star and the resource pool it bolsters. You only know at the moment how much you can get out of 0-25 points. You have literally no idea at all how much magicka you will have based on let's say a 25k base pool with 120 points in "The Atronarch" or in addition120 in every other of the two magicka based constellation. Same goes for health and stamina which is nothing you don't need at all even if magicka might be your main resource. You don't know how much your skills scale by doing so. Or your survivability. You don't know yet how every other combat relevant passive performs. So I am sorry Sir, but you are wrong with that statement.
If anything, you are only supporting my argument that the CS isn't nearly as important to endgame as some would lead you to believe. Because by your same statement, one could say that we have no idea. Period.
Even though I still disagree. It's pretty clear to me by looking at the constilations what we will and won't have. 12% to crit is still going to be 12%, regardless of the modifiers.
Edited by Alphashado on February 3, 2015 6:47PM1 -
Lied✭✭✭Umm no. No you can't. You have no idea how the system behaves at higher levels regarding diminishing returns to one star and the resource pool it bolsters. You only know at the moment how much you can get out of 0-25 points. You have literally no idea at all how much magicka you will have based on let's say a 25k base pool with 120 points in "The Atronarch" or in addition120 in every other of the two magicka based constellation. Same goes for health and stamina which is nothing you don't need at all even if magicka might be your main resource. You don't know how much your skills scale by doing so. Or your survivability. You don't know yet how every other combat relevant passive performs. So I am sorry Sir, but you are wrong with that statement.
Don't know this.. don't know that, that, or that... 100% sure there's going to be a power gap issue. I feel like I'm beginning to understand your frustration with the community.2 -
Berinima✭✭✭
You got a lol for that because nothing you have stated has anything to do with what I wrote. You are trying to win the discussion with the use of sophistry (which is a falsification argument in case you don't know). So, sorry Sir, you are wrong again.Alphashado wrote: »If anything, you are only supporting my argument that the CS isn't nearly as important to endgame as some would lead you to believe.
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Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
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Ok. Well since the best thing you can come up with is "you're wrong", my conversation with you is over. Especially since you seem to be more interested in theory rather than facts.
You got a lol for that because nothing you have stated has anything to do with what I wrote. You are trying to win the discussion with the use of sophistry (which is a falsification argument in case you don't know). So, sorry Sir, you are wrong again.Alphashado wrote: »If anything, you are only supporting my argument that the CS isn't nearly as important to endgame as some would lead you to believe.
And for the record, this is a direct quote from the OP
""I can already see the QQ posts of casual players complaining because they are unable, no matter how much skill they have, to compete against people with OP passives or OP damage, I can already see the QQ posts of new players when they come to realize that no matter how hard they try or how much time they invest in the game, they will never have characters as good as players who have been playing since the beginning of the system.""
Edited by Alphashado on February 3, 2015 6:57PM0 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
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No one likes you, because you don't want to play with us. Many of us are not that bad, but you are the ones who despise us in-game, kick us from groups, don't recruit us or gather your closed groups not taking us even if we are in the same guild. Why are you surprised we dislike you back? It's very logical. It's mutual, you see? If we drive you away from the game, we won't feel that pathetic and miserable. We don't want to feel envy which you make us feel. We also want to play and get the stuff done, but we can't get into groups that you start. And unfortunately the situation in ESO is that there are guilds who do end-game content and others only do pledges and maybe AA/HRC.It is a bizarre irony that competitive players are so openly despised in the public game forums when every bit of information they unconver seems to be precisley the stuff that practically everyone, competitive or not, wants to have at their disposal to play the game, since yes everyone wants the shineys and to win. They publicly take the position of "no, it's all just elitist BS and we don't need that anyway to play,"
On the subject, I agree with OP completely . He made a lot of valid points and that's exactly what I was thinking about this system, I just never had time to post it. It is a vertical progression system and it will only add to the gap. Cheers.
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Berinima✭✭✭
I am very interested in facts, sadly you didn't provide any. If you still want to, please answer me this:Alphashado wrote: »Ok. Well since the best thing you can come up with is "you're wrong", my conversation with you is over. Especially since you seem to be more interested in theory rather than facts.
- Player A has 25k magicka without any CPs applied.
- How much does he have with 20 CPs?
- How much does he have with 120 CPs?
- How much does he have with a fully maxed out system?
- How does this affect his DPS?
- How much do the points that he allocates in other constellations like health and stamina influence his survivability?
Right, you don't know.
Q.E.D.
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Berinima✭✭✭
That is one quote out of a very long text. That doesn't make it the essential point of the OP.Alphashado wrote: »And for the record, this is a direct quote from the OP...
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