Why Champion System will Kill the game if it's implemented as is

Razzak

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Champion system is only a grind if you make it into one. For those players that will pretty much ignore it and just play normally instead of grinding, they will thanks to enlightenment mechanic accumulate CP points at a rate that will allow them to close the gap rapidly thanks to the diminishing returns on the champion abilities.

All that is fine, till they want to play PVP and they get owned by someone dealing damage so high they have never seen before, or till they want to do a trial and someone says: Sorry, you need 800 CP to come and this and that passive.

We are talking about a new player who freshly hit level 50 here, right?
What do you think happens to him today when he wants to PVP?

The champion system is the least of his worries. And by the time he is good enough to be competitive with old players skill-wise, the CP gap will already be diminished.

And concerning the trial example: i do not believe ZOS will ever release a trial that will be impossible unless all participants have 800 CP. Thus this is just a matter of finding a group of players who are not elitist a-holes and are willing to take a new player with them.

I agree, PVP right now already presents a new 50 player with a gap, but the question is, how much time (bolded part) will be required before you get to that point when you are on more or less equal terms?
CP system is looking like a system that introduces a very, very time consuming process. Are we talking here about a month or two, or year or two before you get to the point where diminishing returns are of little use to top level players as opposed to the one that is trying to reach them?

Again, please point to the passive or passive combination that makes a player so much better that they will simply be wiping the floor with anyone who hasn't gotten as many points.

Where, in my post, do you see any mention of passives?

You're talking about the Champion System, which only deals in passives. In fact, the entire point of this thread (for some) has been that those passives are going to so drastically alter balance that no new players will be able to catch up.

So again, I have to ask: what constellation passives are going to make such a difference that a player without them simply will not be able to compete?

I stand corrected.
That said, posts above this one describe the difference better than I could.

Lied

TehMagnus wrote: »

- 120 Last Stand Grants Major Heroism when you fall below 20% health, increasing your Ultimate gain by 3 every 1.6 seconds, cooldown 30 seconds
- 75 Mara's Gift When killed heal all allies in an 8 meter radius for (xxxx)

I promise I won't come to the forum and whine about someone that managed to pop off an extra standard before being executed and healing the one unfocused ally he had within 8m by his death.

edited to remove incorrect information regarding the CS

Faugaun

Razzak wrote: »

I agree with OP.
I think they wanted to introduce a system that no player would be able to finish in couple of weeks or even months. And I like that. ESO's crafting research already does that. It doesn't allow anyone to reach 9 traits on a single item in a week. It's a good system that works magic in Eve, but it also has a huge potential problem.
One that is clear in CP Vs crafting research. It's the amount of time that has to be invested in order to get to it's max.
While crafting research is well thought out because it doesn't require you to play the game for years, CP system does precisely that. Where's the fun in knowing you will have to play the game for years in order to finish it? They should lower the time needed and, imo, it would not be such dividing point to ESO's players.

I thought the game was finished when you kill Molag bal...everything else is end game grind content....just saying the real game end is Molag bal, until they continue the story. Everything else is what they gave us to have fun while we wait....then there are the RPers who continue the story (that's a whole separate catagory but actually similar to the other end game stuff, except you don't have to kill Molag bal to get there and stats are less important (most of the time...)).

Berinima

Sharee wrote: »

The total influence of the CP system is being blown out of proportion compared to the influence of other systems already in the game.

While I agree that there are other influences like gear and... Well, I can't think of any other. The alliance skill line is in my opinion not so substantial at all. It is important in group play, true, but it does not give you a huge edge to be honest. As long as someone in your group or only around you has purge that very well compensates the fact that your character might not have it. There are new skills that will be added with the patch and that is also a good thing. But as you said, the system adds up to the gap that is already in place.

Look, the champion system is coming anyway. I can't speak for every other poster that is very vocal about not liking it but only for me. I appreciate the fact that there is a new way of progressing your character. Because the lack of meaningful progression is one of the reason that many people in our guild have quit the game in the first place. This does not apply to me because to me PvP is the only endgame and I personally like everyone being competitive and dividing the good and bad players only by their skill and builds.

However, I understand that people like to have a progression of some sort. It's an MMO after all and that seems to be a thing players are interested in. The OP is pointing out that a horizontal progression is a way smarter approach than a vertical one and I agree. The champion system is very vertical. Everyone that disagrees should probably google "horizontal" and "vertical" progression to get that fact right (I am not saying that you don't know the correct use of these terms).

What I personally don't understand at all is that there are people absolutely defending the system without ever dealing with the problems that system might cause. For starters, it WILL cause a power gap. How bad that will be, we don't know yet. We like to test it but we can't. How it is implemented on the PTS the enlightenment gain as well as the diminishing returns do not handle that issue properly. These mechanics TRY to address these problems but they don't solve it.

Also, the system does not treat players equally. Not every playstyle is rewarded the same, some playstyles are even not rewarded at all. This causes a lot of frustration. The same amount of frustration is caused by the fact several stats had to be moved from gear that has already been acquired to the champion system. This was a neccessary step and even maybe a good one. Is it smart to do that? Well, that depends. If you try to understand people that worked very hard to get that gear it's not ideal.

But all these issues bring us back to the question: Is the system really good exactly how it is? I don't think so. It can be vastly improved. And frankly, it has to before it goes live. However it can't be improved by not giving feedback and everytime one comes up with a valid point trying to shut them down with buzz phrases like "diminishing returns", "not grind", "no VR ranks", etc. Because it's not that simple.

A meaningful progression in an MMO is a very complicated problem and the champion system is not the ideal solution to it. At least not how it is in place at the moment.

Sharee

TehMagnus wrote: »

You can play for years and be a terrible player but still win because you are stronger than the other player.

Sure, there can be cases where, without the champion system, a fresh player would defeat someone who has been playing for years, and with the champion system, he won't be able to.

But: How many cases are we talking? Three? Four? Remember the thread claims the champion system will kill the game. What will happen once in a blue moon won't kill the game. For the vast majority of newcomers, champion system will make no difference as far as their survival is concerned when facing veterans.

TehMagnus

Sharee wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

You can play for years and be a terrible player but still win because you are stronger than the other player.

Sure, there can be cases where, without the champion system, a fresh player would defeat someone who has been playing for years, and with the champion system, he won't be able to.

But: How many cases are we talking? Three? Four? Remember the thread claims the champion system will kill the game. What will happen once in a blue moon won't kill the game. For the vast majority of newcomers, champion system will make no difference as far as their survival is concerned when facing veterans.

The fact that they will never catch up to the other players no matter how hard they try and that they won't be able to compete in PVE because they will allways be weaker than other players will stop new players on the long run. AS for the short run, the initial gap which will be stronger at the first levels and the endless grind ahead will also make many people quit.

Edit: Oh and the people QQing about VR1 - VR14 grind are the ones who will be the most unhappy

Berinima

TehMagnus wrote: »

The fact that they will never catch up to the other players no matter how hard they try and that they won't be able to compete in PVE because they will allways be weaker than other players will stop new players on the long run. AS for the short run, the initial gap which will be stronger at the first levels and the endless grind ahead will also make many people quit.

Diminishing returns! ^^

Alphashado

What you aren't taking into account is that the most powerful passives are unlocked very early in the CS.

Take this one for example: - 30 Spell Precision Increases your spell critical by 12%

That is acquired after 30 pts are spent in The Mage tree "Apprentice". I already have 23 pts to spend in the mage tree after starting with 70. So with only 70 CP, I am already very close to being able to attain that +12% spell crit passive.

And anyone with any interest in DPS is going to sink ALL of their initial pts into the Apprentice because of Elemental expert which increases elemental dmg and Elfborn which increases spell crit damage.

My point is that most of the more significant passives are attainable very early in the CS

technohic

Berinima wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

The fact that they will never catch up to the other players no matter how hard they try and that they won't be able to compete in PVE because they will allways be weaker than other players will stop new players on the long run. AS for the short run, the initial gap which will be stronger at the first levels and the endless grind ahead will also make many people quit.

Diminishing returns! ^^

They may be diminishing, but they are still returns. And thats a hard sale to someone that comes in to the game a year for now. "Don't worry. The people ahead of you will still get better but you will get better quicker, but never really catch all the way up."

Maybe this isn't such a big deal to PvE focused players so long as they can do the content, but for PvP? Well; you need new players constantly coming in to counter attrition in all aspects of the game in an MMO and a lot of people who would be PvP minded pay attention to the details. Every inch counts so if they cannot catch up, they will quit even if it is a minuscule amount.

TehMagnus

Berinima wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

The fact that they will never catch up to the other players no matter how hard they try and that they won't be able to compete in PVE because they will allways be weaker than other players will stop new players on the long run. AS for the short run, the initial gap which will be stronger at the first levels and the endless grind ahead will also make many people quit.

Diminishing returns! ^^

PLease read everything else that has been said, the diminishing returns only really begin to lower the gap on the long run after 600+ points because of all the OP passives that you get at first and the fact that the first invested points are the strongest ones.

Berinima

Alphashado wrote: »

My point is that most of the more significant passives are attainable very early in the CS

That does not negate the facts that there is a bunch of useful passives, that there are a bunch of useful stars and you bolster your resource pools for every point your spend.

The point is that one part of the system is no problem at all. The sum of it is.

Elsonso

Yes, the Champion System will be an ever growing gulf between new players and veteran players.

The developers are looking at the diminishing returns to limit the size of the gulf between the players, but that is not the only factor here. Diminishing returns will help, but the increased value of a CP means that this divide will grow quickly over the next few months. It will take months for new players to cross the divide and get into the diminishing return range.

The downside to the system is that the game will get a reputation of being a veteran game where new players are distinctly disadvantaged.

They will have to add CP boosters. For example, all new players get 50 starter Champion Points to spend. They can also sell CP by the dozen in the Crown Store for those who want to shave a few months off of character development.

If they don't want to do that, they may need to consider reducing the power of the Champion Point to further reduce the magnitude of the new-veteran player divide.

Of course, the estimated time box of the system may be cleverly calculated. They may have an end-date in mind for the game and have set the Champion System so that only the rare player will even get up into the top area of the system before the game closes. The Champion System may be the Mayan Calendar for this game.

TehMagnus

Alphashado wrote: »

What you aren't taking into account is that the most powerful passives are unlocked very early in the CS.

Take this one for example: - 30 Spell Precision Increases your spell critical by 12%

That is acquired after 30 pts are spent in The Mage tree "Apprentice". I already have 23 pts to spend in the mage tree after starting with 70. So with only 70 CP, I am already very close to being able to attain that +12% spell crit passive.

And anyone with any interest in DPS is going to sink ALL of their initial pts into the Apprentice because of Elemental expert which increases elemental dmg and Elfborn which increases spell crit damage.

My point is that most of the more significant passives are attainable very early in the CS

It's 90 CP for that one which is already 80h of grind to get the extra points and that is not the only OP passive you can get at early, there are many others that will increase survivability in AOE phases such as the Manticora, the Serpent, all the bosses of AA? the Warrior which means less heals, less deaths, more DPS, better performance. If you want both 12% passives you need 30 points in two areas of the Apprentice so that means 180 points, so 440h of grind and once you have them, new players need 440h of grind to get the passives, while you're getting 440h worth of other better/stronger passives + base stats that come with them.

Alphashado

Berinima wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

My point is that most of the more significant passives are attainable very early in the CS

That does not negate the facts that there is a bunch of useful passives, that there are a bunch of useful stars and you bolster your resource pools for every point your spend.

The point is that one part of the system is no problem at all. The sum of it is.

I don't see it as an issue if the most powerful passives are easy to get at low levels. I was kinda on the fence about this issue with you guys until I opened the CS meue, started looking around and realized that all the "OP" passives are very easy to get. The other 90% is just fluff that is not game breaking.

Alphashado

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

What you aren't taking into account is that the most powerful passives are unlocked very early in the CS.

Take this one for example: - 30 Spell Precision Increases your spell critical by 12%

That is acquired after 30 pts are spent in The Mage tree "Apprentice". I already have 23 pts to spend in the mage tree after starting with 70. So with only 70 CP, I am already very close to being able to attain that +12% spell crit passive.

And anyone with any interest in DPS is going to sink ALL of their initial pts into the Apprentice because of Elemental expert which increases elemental dmg and Elfborn which increases spell crit damage.

My point is that most of the more significant passives are attainable very early in the CS

It's 90 CP for that one which is already 80h of grind to get the extra points and that is not the only OP passive you can get at early, there are many others that will increase survivability in AOE phases such as the Manticora, the Serpent, all the bosses of AA? the Warrior which means less heals, less deaths, more DPS, better performance. If you want both 12% passives you need 30 points in two areas of the Apprentice so that means 180 points, so 440h of grind and once you have them, new players need 440h of grind to get the passives, while you're getting 440h worth of other better/stronger passives + base stats that come with them.

Ok, well lets say you DO want both 12% crit passives. It won't matter anymore because weapon dmg/crit is no longer crucial in casting builds.

If you are using a stamina build for example, why would you want 12% spell crit? Sure it would be nice for hybrid stuff, but if you are using a stamina build, 12% spell crit is not going to be a MUST for trial DPS.

Not only that, but you can easily get both of them with 90 total CPs as you mentioned

NewBlacksmurf

I blindly assumed the CP system would replace the VR character levels and remove the requirements to do the silver and gold quests.

I like the game and enjoy questing, running dungeons and raiding but the VR content so to speak doesn't seem to fit well.

You raise some good points, some of which I cannot speak to. I'm interested to see phase 2 of the removal of VR before I blast the idea.

TehMagnus

How any person that dislikes the VR system can be on board with this is a mystery to me.

technohic

TehMagnus wrote: »

How any person that dislikes the VR system can be on board with this is a mystery to me.

Pretty much the only thing that really matters to me is if I can actually effectively stay somewhat paced by PvPing. I doubt it will ever happen but that has been my problem with VR and will be my problem with the champion system.

What sold me on this game after a very poor impression in beta until that point is Cyrodiil. For all the flaws, there are not a lot of modern RvR games to chose from. Sadly; I have not done that much because every time I did, I fell more behind in leveling and I couldn't stand it after so long and I quit for several months. Have just recenlty started to make the push and questing isn't so bad if I could do it when I felt like it rather than try to push through it or grind.

Berinima

technohic wrote: »

Berinima wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

....

Diminishing returns! ^^

They may be diminishing, but they are still returns. And thats a hard sale to someone that comes in to the game a year for now. "Don't worry. The people ahead of you will still get better but you will get better quicker, but never really catch all the way up."

Maybe this isn't such a big deal to PvE focused players so long as they can do the content, but for PvP? Well; you need new players constantly coming in to counter attrition in all aspects of the game in an MMO and a lot of people who would be PvP minded pay attention to the details. Every inch counts so if they cannot catch up, they will quit even if it is a minuscule amount.

TehMagnus wrote: »

Berinima wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

...

Diminishing returns! ^^

PLease read everything else that has been said, the diminishing returns only really begin to lower the gap on the long run after 600+ points because of all the OP passives that you get at first and the fact that the first invested points are the strongest ones.

Have you guys read anything I have ever written in this thread or any other regarding the champion system? Did it occur to you that this was a maybe a joke post based on the fact that every time somebody writes a valid point some ZOS fanboi tries to shut them down with that? Geeeeeeeez...

Roechacca

So you think they set the bar too high ?

TehMagnus

Berinima wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Berinima wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

....

Diminishing returns! ^^

They may be diminishing, but they are still returns. And thats a hard sale to someone that comes in to the game a year for now. "Don't worry. The people ahead of you will still get better but you will get better quicker, but never really catch all the way up."

Maybe this isn't such a big deal to PvE focused players so long as they can do the content, but for PvP? Well; you need new players constantly coming in to counter attrition in all aspects of the game in an MMO and a lot of people who would be PvP minded pay attention to the details. Every inch counts so if they cannot catch up, they will quit even if it is a minuscule amount.

TehMagnus wrote: »

Berinima wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

...

Diminishing returns! ^^

PLease read everything else that has been said, the diminishing returns only really begin to lower the gap on the long run after 600+ points because of all the OP passives that you get at first and the fact that the first invested points are the strongest ones.

Have you guys read anything I have ever written in this thread or any other regarding the champion system? Did it occur to you that this was a maybe a joke post based on the fact that every time somebody writes a valid point some ZOS fanboi tries to shut them down with that? Geeeeeeeez...

Sorry I've been baned till today for criticizing management decisions so just came back to the forums .

technohic

Berinima wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Berinima wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

....

Diminishing returns! ^^

They may be diminishing, but they are still returns. And thats a hard sale to someone that comes in to the game a year for now. "Don't worry. The people ahead of you will still get better but you will get better quicker, but never really catch all the way up."

Maybe this isn't such a big deal to PvE focused players so long as they can do the content, but for PvP? Well; you need new players constantly coming in to counter attrition in all aspects of the game in an MMO and a lot of people who would be PvP minded pay attention to the details. Every inch counts so if they cannot catch up, they will quit even if it is a minuscule amount.

TehMagnus wrote: »

Berinima wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

...

Diminishing returns! ^^

PLease read everything else that has been said, the diminishing returns only really begin to lower the gap on the long run after 600+ points because of all the OP passives that you get at first and the fact that the first invested points are the strongest ones.

Have you guys read anything I have ever written in this thread or any other regarding the champion system? Did it occur to you that this was a maybe a joke post based on the fact that every time somebody writes a valid point some ZOS fanboi tries to shut them down with that? Geeeeeeeez...

I lose track of who's who. And there might be times where I will defend ZOS when I think they are doing the right thing of if I am just not entirely sold they are doing the wrong thing so I can lose track of who I am agree with and who I am arguing with.

Alphashado

I guess for me it boils down to this: If the OP passives were at the top of each tree, then I would agree with the OP and could see how this would create a very major long-term issue. But they aren't. The most powerful passives are easily attainable at the lower end of all the trees.

Berinima

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sorry I've been baned till today for criticizing management decisions so just came back to the forums .

Muahahaha, never mind. But what did you do?

TehMagnus

Alphashado wrote: »

I guess for me it boils down to this: If the OP passives were at the top of each tree, then I would agree with the OP and could see how this would create a very major long-term issue. But they aren't. The most powerful passives are easily attainable at the lower end of all the trees.

They actually aren't every bit counts and some of the best passives are at 120 CP (see list linked previously)

TehMagnus

Berinima wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Sorry I've been baned till today for criticizing management decisions so just came back to the forums .

Muahahaha, never mind. But what did you do?

Nothing, else I'll get rebanned for "spreading conspiration theories" and "discussing moderation decisions" which is forbidden in the forums.

Yeah I know the EULA very well now :disagree:

Alphashado

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I guess for me it boils down to this: If the OP passives were at the top of each tree, then I would agree with the OP and could see how this would create a very major long-term issue. But they aren't. The most powerful passives are easily attainable at the lower end of all the trees.

They actually aren't every bit counts and some of the best passives are at 120 CP (see list linked previously)

I agree with that. I also agree that the required XP to gain a CP seems to be high at this point.

But I don't see any passive that will be a requirement for trial groups costing any more than 30 CP in any tree. There is nothing in the upper tiers that is going to cause even the most elitist guy to boot someone if they don't have it.

KerinKor

TehMagnus wrote: »

and "discussing moderation decisions" which is forbidden in the forums.

Isn't that what you're doing here?

Morvul

TehMagnus wrote: »

How any person that dislikes the VR system can be on board with this is a mystery to me.

quoted for truth...

that said, I like the VR system very much. and am pretty thrilled by what I've seen of the CP system so far

TehMagnus

TehMagnus wrote: »

double post

Alphashado wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I guess for me it boils down to this: If the OP passives were at the top of each tree, then I would agree with the OP and could see how this would create a very major long-term issue. But they aren't. The most powerful passives are easily attainable at the lower end of all the trees.

They actually aren't every bit counts and some of the best passives are at 120 CP (see list linked previously)

I agree with that. I also agree that the required XP to gain a CP seems to be high at this point.

But I don't see any passive that will be a requirement for trial groups costing any more than 30 CP in any tree. There is nothing in the upper tiers that is going to cause even the most elitist guy to boot someone if they don't have it.

If I have to choose between a player that has passives and one that doesn't, I'll pick the one who has them, even if they have the same skill, especially for healers & tanks. Anyone playing competitively will do the same and this will penalize good players whose only fault is starting the game too late or not having as much time as others to grind.