IMO its the stealth thats just so good, why do i have to slot detection pots/another skill just to fight this. Its so unfair in comparison to what other classes can.
On my templar i have to stay in my house for crazy heals, dont have burst and a spamable that got gutted so hard, that its not even meta anymore. Meanwhile NB has all of this without drawbacks plus stealth, yeah right NB is not op guys

RetPing wrote: »

Can you please tell me how am I supposed to block/rolldodge a NB that hit me from stealth while I am fighting some NPC with a couple of proc sets?
I still have not developed precognition.

In bg, whenever you see nb cloaking, hot up and hold block while slowly moving to team, objective or open ground where they cant hide without cloaking. I saw a lot of newbies don't even try to keep health at max.

They have to reveal in 3 seconds. Stun them immediately and burst. If they recloak, you repeat heal and block. Good nbs are few, many are just very annoying, but dangerous if left unchecked.



Dunno about ic. Nbs there are likely much better. But it's risky even without nb anyway. For instance, all my characters travel in stealth and the opening attack is always cc, something I learned from group bgs. Imagine it's a critical strike with scavengers' maw proced. Literally any vampire can do that.

Grim Focus as skill by it self is just fine. Its strong but its OK. The problem is cloak with guaranted crit atached to it, that is what makes it OP. Cloak is the best defensive skill in the game - 100% dmg reduction for seconds.... no need for anything more atached to it.
Remove guaranted crit from cloak and its closer to beeing balanced with the rest of the game or nerf Grim Focus.
I play NB too... The only thing that makes NB looks not so strong in some ppl eyes is lack of skill. NB is about timing. Now develpers try to make this class easier to play.....

What I find most hilarious is that I "ganked" more people this last event with my level 33 DK, than my champion 1680 Nightblade ...I used him for just running quests in stealth when I DIDN'T want to fight --
My DK is not in best gear, and is 2-handed weapon front and back bar, right now, with just about the same skills on both ... as I am working on leveling things.... but, using stealth (which, ANYONE can use), and then an invis / heal potion (for emergencies), I ganked people.....

Best part is that when I would Stampede out, so many people would start rapid blocking, thinking I had stunned..... and by the time they realized they could move, I would have hit them with a second attack - and then Talons, which would CC them... and then if needed, chains to pull them back to my AOE ..... Nice thing about Stampede - it's always a crit, even if NOT from stealth... so I will sometimes just spam that - and with Igneous Weapon giving me Major Brutality for a full minute, and Minor Brutality (from the passive) for 20 seconds... My damage was quite sufficient to knock people down quick.

Ganking is NOT just a NB skill --- it's a practice technique that can be applied to ANY class .... Learning to use the stealth, and watching your eye to control range is critical .. Positioning is a part of it... and yes, I have used a sorc to Streak Gank targets just as easily.

Auldwulfe

StaticWave wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

What I find most hilarious is that I "ganked" more people this last event with my level 33 DK, than my champion 1680 Nightblade ...I used him for just running quests in stealth when I DIDN'T want to fight --
My DK is not in best gear, and is 2-handed weapon front and back bar, right now, with just about the same skills on both ... as I am working on leveling things.... but, using stealth (which, ANYONE can use), and then an invis / heal potion (for emergencies), I ganked people.....

Best part is that when I would Stampede out, so many people would start rapid blocking, thinking I had stunned..... and by the time they realized they could move, I would have hit them with a second attack - and then Talons, which would CC them... and then if needed, chains to pull them back to my AOE ..... Nice thing about Stampede - it's always a crit, even if NOT from stealth... so I will sometimes just spam that - and with Igneous Weapon giving me Major Brutality for a full minute, and Minor Brutality (from the passive) for 20 seconds... My damage was quite sufficient to knock people down quick.

Ganking is NOT just a NB skill --- it's a practice technique that can be applied to ANY class .... Learning to use the stealth, and watching your eye to control range is critical .. Positioning is a part of it... and yes, I have used a sorc to Streak Gank targets just as easily.

Auldwulfe

Yea but NB does it best lol. No arguments can change that fact.

Is class identity a bad thing?

Edit: Not to say that opportunity costs shouldn't be considered

StaticWave wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

What I find most hilarious is that I "ganked" more people this last event with my level 33 DK, than my champion 1680 Nightblade ...I used him for just running quests in stealth when I DIDN'T want to fight --
My DK is not in best gear, and is 2-handed weapon front and back bar, right now, with just about the same skills on both ... as I am working on leveling things.... but, using stealth (which, ANYONE can use), and then an invis / heal potion (for emergencies), I ganked people.....

Best part is that when I would Stampede out, so many people would start rapid blocking, thinking I had stunned..... and by the time they realized they could move, I would have hit them with a second attack - and then Talons, which would CC them... and then if needed, chains to pull them back to my AOE ..... Nice thing about Stampede - it's always a crit, even if NOT from stealth... so I will sometimes just spam that - and with Igneous Weapon giving me Major Brutality for a full minute, and Minor Brutality (from the passive) for 20 seconds... My damage was quite sufficient to knock people down quick.

Ganking is NOT just a NB skill --- it's a practice technique that can be applied to ANY class .... Learning to use the stealth, and watching your eye to control range is critical .. Positioning is a part of it... and yes, I have used a sorc to Streak Gank targets just as easily.

Auldwulfe

Yea but NB does it best lol. No arguments can change that fact.

Never argued that --- but it does still take skill to do it effectively, and if you learn the skills, you CAN do it with any class ...
Some people scream like a level 10 (minimum for PVP) NB's are out there curb stomping anything they come across while naked, against champion 3600's in BIS gear .... and it's not true, as MANY have noted -- now, it is an easy style of play for new players to pick up quickly, while they build up gear.... they can have some success with it... same has the Oakensoul HA build can allow average players to do a good amount of PVE stuff, while gaining the gear to do better ...

However, in the end, just like the Oakensoul HA - it's a one trick pony, and learning how it works, and learning the skills to counter it, will allow you to deal with it just fine -- my level 33 DK survived multiple gank attempts.... it's amazing how NO ONE wants to stick around corrosive armor... or a LOT of other ultimates, when you drop it at your feet.
My sorc is fond of the storm ultimate off of my staff -- 10K damage a second usually convinces MOST people to get the hell out of AOE, while I use my streak to open distance and plan.

My DK fire mage loves to use corrosive on one bar, just for gankers....

Do I sometimes get beat down because the lag didn't let me break free? Yes..... and many times, it is players with better skills than I have... I am only an average player.... But, if you use the skills in the game, use the potions, etc... you can beat it.
Essence of immovability, and Escapist poisons are, seriously, your friends ...... and reduced potion cooldown glyphs and sets are also great ...
In the end, you build for it, just like any other build .....
I'm seriously considering turning my one DK into a gank hunter.... I'm pretty sure it would be fun to go hunting them, although a sorc just might do it better -- I have a Nord Sorc with 40K health -- streak, yeah, that could do it fine.

Auldwulfe

I'd class-change my main from NB to DK anytime for pvp purposes if that was possible.

People are whining on NB coz it has one of the most annoying abilities in the game - stealth, but realistically I'd rather face tank anything on my DK than get destroyed in seconds if i'm not in stealth as a NB.

RetPing wrote: »

Azirel wrote: »

I'd class-change my main from NB to DK anytime for pvp purposes if that was possible.

People are whining on NB coz it has one of the most annoying abilities in the game - stealth, but realistically I'd rather face tank anything on my DK than get destroyed in seconds if i'm not in stealth as a NB.

Dunno how you play but many NB can play as brawlers quite well.
If you get destroyed in seconds maybe yoiur build is not that good?

I haven't successfully built a good brawler blade without proc sets but I have fought multiple night blades that were tanky as hell, mostly because of their healing. I would literally get a small window to burst them and if they managed to avoid my execute due to good movement or a stun, they could easily bounce back to full health.

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

What I find most hilarious is that I "ganked" more people this last event with my level 33 DK, than my champion 1680 Nightblade ...I used him for just running quests in stealth when I DIDN'T want to fight --
My DK is not in best gear, and is 2-handed weapon front and back bar, right now, with just about the same skills on both ... as I am working on leveling things.... but, using stealth (which, ANYONE can use), and then an invis / heal potion (for emergencies), I ganked people.....

Best part is that when I would Stampede out, so many people would start rapid blocking, thinking I had stunned..... and by the time they realized they could move, I would have hit them with a second attack - and then Talons, which would CC them... and then if needed, chains to pull them back to my AOE ..... Nice thing about Stampede - it's always a crit, even if NOT from stealth... so I will sometimes just spam that - and with Igneous Weapon giving me Major Brutality for a full minute, and Minor Brutality (from the passive) for 20 seconds... My damage was quite sufficient to knock people down quick.

Ganking is NOT just a NB skill --- it's a practice technique that can be applied to ANY class .... Learning to use the stealth, and watching your eye to control range is critical .. Positioning is a part of it... and yes, I have used a sorc to Streak Gank targets just as easily.

Auldwulfe

Yea but NB does it best lol. No arguments can change that fact.

Is class identity a bad thing?

It isn’t, but NB lost that identity card when it received a burst heal spammable, Major + Minor Cowardice, Major + Minor Expedition, and Major Evasion.

You’d have to strip away 70-80% of the survivability buffs NB got over the years for your class identity statement to be meaningful. The current NB has everything in its kit. Not only does it have the same damage output as a squishy ganker NB, but it is also very tanky with 30k+ resistances, 50%+ critical damage mitigation, Major Evasion, Cowardice, and also very fast with Major + Minor Expedition.

So apart from the introduction of the burst heal, it lost its identity due to greater access to general buffs?

StaticWave wrote: »

You cannot argue in favor of the class’ stealthy theme when ZOS gave the class so many defensive buffs that it became a tanky brawler. A tanky bralwer that can also Cloak while moving at speed cap, now that is a reciple for disaster.

If old NB was a squishy but lethal and stealthy assassin, like a Ninja, then the current NB is a medieval knight in full armor but can somehow move as fast as and be as stealthy as a Ninja, while having the healing prowess of a wizard.

When the first stealth class was invented the maverick geniuses behind it never thought the idea would get taken this far.

It's going to be even crazier next patch with constant heal and sustain ticks off of dots. NB literally has the best of Templar, Sorc and DK next patch while still having its special trick bag.

I'm kind of thinking it's a trial on arcanist-ifying/imba-izing all classes and NB happened to be first.

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

What I find most hilarious is that I "ganked" more people this last event with my level 33 DK, than my champion 1680 Nightblade ...I used him for just running quests in stealth when I DIDN'T want to fight --
My DK is not in best gear, and is 2-handed weapon front and back bar, right now, with just about the same skills on both ... as I am working on leveling things.... but, using stealth (which, ANYONE can use), and then an invis / heal potion (for emergencies), I ganked people.....

Best part is that when I would Stampede out, so many people would start rapid blocking, thinking I had stunned..... and by the time they realized they could move, I would have hit them with a second attack - and then Talons, which would CC them... and then if needed, chains to pull them back to my AOE ..... Nice thing about Stampede - it's always a crit, even if NOT from stealth... so I will sometimes just spam that - and with Igneous Weapon giving me Major Brutality for a full minute, and Minor Brutality (from the passive) for 20 seconds... My damage was quite sufficient to knock people down quick.

Ganking is NOT just a NB skill --- it's a practice technique that can be applied to ANY class .... Learning to use the stealth, and watching your eye to control range is critical .. Positioning is a part of it... and yes, I have used a sorc to Streak Gank targets just as easily.

Auldwulfe

Yea but NB does it best lol. No arguments can change that fact.

Is class identity a bad thing?

It isn’t, but NB lost that identity card when it received a burst heal spammable, Major + Minor Cowardice, Major + Minor Expedition, and Major Evasion.

You’d have to strip away 70-80% of the survivability buffs NB got over the years for your class identity statement to be meaningful. The current NB has everything in its kit. Not only does it have the same damage output as a squishy ganker NB, but it is also very tanky with 30k+ resistances, 50%+ critical damage mitigation, Major Evasion, Cowardice, and also very fast with Major + Minor Expedition.

So apart from the introduction of the burst heal, it lost its identity due to greater access to general buffs?

Yes, it did.

If you haven’t noticed, most NB share the same 3 offensive abilities (Concealed, Merciless Resolve, Killer’s Blade). Greater access to general buffs means more efficient bar space, which also means it can slot more of its defensive abilities.

A stealthy “Assassin” cannot be tanky. Being squishy is a fundamental and necessary tradeoff for being stealthy. This is no longer the case for NB. As we have discussed, NB currently has access to a strong burst heal spammable, Major + Minor Cowardice to reduce an opponent’s damage, Major Evasion, free dodge roll every few seconds, and so much damage modifiers they are able to build super tanky and still have damage.

You cannot argue in favor of the class’ stealthy theme when ZOS gave the class so many defensive buffs that it became a tanky brawler. A tanky bralwer that can also Cloak while moving at speed cap, now that is a reciple for disaster.

If old NB was a squishy but lethal and stealthy assassin, like a Ninja, then the current NB is a medieval knight in full armor but can somehow move as fast as and be as stealthy as a Ninja, while having the healing prowess of a wizard.

If you haven't noticed, most players are Master's Duel Wield, Maarselok, and Vate ..... it's a pattern with the game.

Auldwulfe

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

What I find most hilarious is that I "ganked" more people this last event with my level 33 DK, than my champion 1680 Nightblade ...I used him for just running quests in stealth when I DIDN'T want to fight --
My DK is not in best gear, and is 2-handed weapon front and back bar, right now, with just about the same skills on both ... as I am working on leveling things.... but, using stealth (which, ANYONE can use), and then an invis / heal potion (for emergencies), I ganked people.....

Best part is that when I would Stampede out, so many people would start rapid blocking, thinking I had stunned..... and by the time they realized they could move, I would have hit them with a second attack - and then Talons, which would CC them... and then if needed, chains to pull them back to my AOE ..... Nice thing about Stampede - it's always a crit, even if NOT from stealth... so I will sometimes just spam that - and with Igneous Weapon giving me Major Brutality for a full minute, and Minor Brutality (from the passive) for 20 seconds... My damage was quite sufficient to knock people down quick.

Ganking is NOT just a NB skill --- it's a practice technique that can be applied to ANY class .... Learning to use the stealth, and watching your eye to control range is critical .. Positioning is a part of it... and yes, I have used a sorc to Streak Gank targets just as easily.

Auldwulfe

Yea but NB does it best lol. No arguments can change that fact.

Is class identity a bad thing?

It isn’t, but NB lost that identity card when it received a burst heal spammable, Major + Minor Cowardice, Major + Minor Expedition, and Major Evasion.

You’d have to strip away 70-80% of the survivability buffs NB got over the years for your class identity statement to be meaningful. The current NB has everything in its kit. Not only does it have the same damage output as a squishy ganker NB, but it is also very tanky with 30k+ resistances, 50%+ critical damage mitigation, Major Evasion, Cowardice, and also very fast with Major + Minor Expedition.

So apart from the introduction of the burst heal, it lost its identity due to greater access to general buffs?

Yes, it did.

If you haven’t noticed, most NB share the same 3 offensive abilities (Concealed, Merciless Resolve, Killer’s Blade). Greater access to general buffs means more efficient bar space, which also means it can slot more of its defensive abilities.

A stealthy “Assassin” cannot be tanky. Being squishy is a fundamental and necessary tradeoff for being stealthy. This is no longer the case for NB. As we have discussed, NB currently has access to a strong burst heal spammable, Major + Minor Cowardice to reduce an opponent’s damage, Major Evasion, free dodge roll every few seconds, and so much damage modifiers they are able to build super tanky and still have damage.

You cannot argue in favor of the class’ stealthy theme when ZOS gave the class so many defensive buffs that it became a tanky brawler. A tanky bralwer that can also Cloak while moving at speed cap, now that is a reciple for disaster.

If old NB was a squishy but lethal and stealthy assassin, like a Ninja, then the current NB is a medieval knight in full armor but can somehow move as fast as and be as stealthy as a Ninja, while having the healing prowess of a wizard.

Oh no the consequences of everyone in PvP wanting to 1vX brawl and escew any kind of assassin gameplay through multitudes of defensive layers and detection because "I need to be a god and can't die only kill" rears its head as one of the more popular overall (I assume combined PvE PvP) classes has growing pains as the class gets retrofitted to be able to do any role within the constraints of its class abilities flavored with an orientation on blood, stealth, being behind the target and spiky damage.

I do agree there need to be tradeoffs, and how the class skills intertwine needs to be addressed.

However access to stat-stick buffs does not cause a class to lose its identity.

NB is indeed the most broken spec in PvP and Sorcerers might push for that title in the coming patch.

There needs to be tradeoffs with stealth gameplay. A class should not have the highest damage spammable, highest damaging burst skill, hardest hitting burst heal, access to the strongest buffs and debuffs in the game (speaking strictly about pvp and buffs/debuffs such as cowardice, defile, courage, major/minor expedition, etc.) and fastest move speed while having tools such as cloak and shade in its kit.

I don't blame players for hopping on nightblade as it is by far the best class currently in pvp and has the highest floor in the game as far as playstyle goes. The constant buffs to try to make NB good in pve over the last few years and hybridization of skills has really pushed it through the roof. The fact that merciless resolve exists in it's current state (you just slot it and that's it) and hits as hard as it does is honestly a joke.

People wonder why you see 40k HP as the norm now in cyrodiil, up from 25k on average just a few years ago need to look no further. Vamp 3, 40k HP, Rallying Cry and yet you still see people complaining on the forums about one class killing them. ZoS did a great job bringing classes like DK in line with the corrosive nerfs and Nightblade is most definitely due one, and hopefully soon.

My suggestion would be to just give NB skill's strict PvE buffs, I.E. instead of concealed doing 10% more damage and Incap giving a 20% damage buff, change it to give buffs *strictly* to monsters. I for one would love if incap/death stroke instead gave a 15-25% flat boost to all damage to monsters while up and you could even give it group synergy as well.

sharquez wrote: »

When everyone is OP, no one is. I'm kinda here for it.

I'd be fine with this, but necromancer is SO far behind it's not even fair lol

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Oh no the consequences of everyone in PvP wanting to 1vX brawl and escew any kind of assassin gameplay through multitudes of defensive layers and detection because "I need to be a god and can't die only kill" rears its head as one of the more popular overall (I assume combined PvE PvP) classes has growing pains as the class gets retrofitted to be able to do any role within the constraints of its class abilities flavored with an orientation on blood, stealth, being behind the target and spiky damage.

Building tanky has always been the move for many 1vX players for years. It's fine though if there are clear drawbacks to building tanky. For example, DKs and Wardens can be super tanky, but they lack any form of escape and will have to rely heavily on LoS. Sorc and NB on the other hand, are not as tanky but they have the freedom to leave the fight and make their opponents fight on their terms.

Tankiness = less evasiveness, and evasiveness = less tankiness. Having both = overperforming, which is the case of current NB and U41 Sorc. If NB and Sorc get better healing, then they must receive a nerf to their evasiveness, which are Cloak and Streak/BoL.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

However access to stat-stick buffs does not cause a class to lose its identity.

But it does because the best build for general purposes will now be a tanky brawler with damage and stealth instead of a squishy brawler with damage and stealth. That's where your class loses its identity. You aren't a squishy and stealthy assassin anymore. You're a full armor knight that can somehow move around the battlefield at maximum speed and turn invisible at will, and still have damage to delete people. It's absurd to think about from a game balance perspective.