nightblades out of control in pvp

Bushido2513

OBJnoob wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Meanwhile a Sorc hit me with snipe, power overload, crystal weapon, and poison injection all at the same time. Then they did it again.

Super telegraphed and you can roll dodge all of it. That's what you'd say if I was complaining about a NB combo, right?

Even more telegraphed when it comes from a visible enemy I would assume.

The sorc is actually using abilities and lining up burst. It takes 3 or 4 cooldowns for all of that to happen, whether it hits you in 1 or not.

Also, the sorc doesn't have a burst heal. So many key differences here.

I'm thinking if I had to explain this to someone who just wanted to kill a player with relative ease. You could do these 4 things and hope they happen to land in a way that kills your target and then either risk getting killed and try to finish the job or run away and still risk getting killed if they have enough movement speed to catch you or a NB is now targeting you and your weak healing.

Or

You can throw 5 light attacks at anything to get your bow, walk right up to the target and incap bow. They are probably dead but if not hit cloak and scurry away and repeat.

DrNukenstein

Bushido2513 wrote: »

You can throw 5 light attacks at anything to get your bow, walk right up to the target and incap bow. They are probably dead but if not hit cloak and scurry away and repeat.

People always be talking about incap w stun like it isn't a 120+ ultimate skill that gets fully spent when you push the button.

Galeriano

Zabulus wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

30k+ single hits with Merciless, from stealth, is obscene and ZOS needs to answer for their refusal to balance the game. It is simply unacceptable and insulting that this one class is allowed to overperform to such an absurd degree especially with other classes like Sorc are so completely neglected. @ZOS_GinaBruno, ZOS must address this.

Excuse me : i made a 170K stealth merciless. And the other night 297K ! when i was dreaming ...

Wait are You questioning the fact merciless can hit upwards of 30k in PvP? because I can assure You it can. It will be usually hitting more often somwhere in the 10-20k bracket but 30k is definietly possible with proper gank build.

Galeriano

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Meanwhile a Sorc hit me with snipe, power overload, crystal weapon, and poison injection all at the same time. Then they did it again.

And all of that can sometimes be equal to merciless alone. And on a nightblade You can do similar combo with snipe, light attack. merciless and elemental/crushing weapon. You can also add meteor to it since You are not tied to any ultimate.

Galeriano

DrNukenstein wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Super telegraphed and you can roll dodge all of it. That's what you'd say if I was complaining about a NB combo, right?

Even more telegraphed when it comes from a visible enemy I would assume.

The sorc is actually using abilities and lining up burst. It takes 3 or 4 cooldowns for all of that to happen, whether it hits you in 1 or not.

Also, the sorc doesn't have a burst heal. So many key differences here.

Except here's the thing. They did it from 30+ meters while I was fighting someone else. Each of those abilities could be used repeatedly meaning they could do that combo every 3 seconds if they wanted, that's less time than it takes for roll penalty to reset. And if anyone went after them, they would streak to safety while potentially taxing the pursuers stam with a guaranteed stun cooked into their mobility.

What I'm getting at is what sorc is capable of is every bit as obnoxious and tedious to play around, arguably more so because it's more spammable, and less punishable because there is no positional commitment. If it's not okay to play stealth melee, then it's not okay to play like that.

Yet somehow it's not sorc snipers that are everywhere but nightblade snipers. Interresting isn't it?

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

You can throw 5 light attacks at anything to get your bow, walk right up to the target and incap bow. They are probably dead but if not hit cloak and scurry away and repeat.

People always be talking about incap w stun like it isn't a 120+ ultimate skill that gets fully spent when you push the button.

And it's what 20 for the player kill and 20 if you drink a potion then just run around light attacking and hitting people with bows if they get at all low.

I mean I recently tested out NB and did this and I don't recall really having an issue with ult uptime.

I'm not saying it's up in a game breaking way but more so that is not at all a situation where you become ineffective in killing players once you spend your ult and proceed to build it back up

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Super telegraphed and you can roll dodge all of it. That's what you'd say if I was complaining about a NB combo, right?

Even more telegraphed when it comes from a visible enemy I would assume.

The sorc is actually using abilities and lining up burst. It takes 3 or 4 cooldowns for all of that to happen, whether it hits you in 1 or not.

Also, the sorc doesn't have a burst heal. So many key differences here.

Except here's the thing. They did it from 30+ meters while I was fighting someone else. Each of those abilities could be used repeatedly meaning they could do that combo every 3 seconds if they wanted, that's less time than it takes for roll penalty to reset. And if anyone went after them, they would streak to safety while potentially taxing the pursuers stam with a guaranteed stun cooked into their mobility.

What I'm getting at is what sorc is capable of is every bit as obnoxious and tedious to play around, arguably more so because it's more spammable, and less punishable because there is no positional commitment. If it's not okay to play stealth melee, then it's not okay to play like that.

You're leaving out very important details though. As you just said, you can chase that sorc so they can try to throw more shots at you but risk being killed by you, another player, a NB, etc with no easy way to reset the situation.

It's well known that you can catch a sorc if you really want to because easy access to movement speed is available. Also if you do catch the sorc they don't actually have great healing to lean on.

Meanwhile if a NB gets seen from a distance they can just cloak and reposition. Sure you can pop a pot or try to keep them out of stealth but they have built in speed, a decent heal, and possibly shade.

Obnoxious playstyles will always be part of the game. NB is in the rare position of having a toolkit that can easily be obnoxious but that also has more than enough damage and healing to back it up.


Here's some perspective, there was a player that could usually always kill me with a meteor javelin build because I didn't have the healing or mitigation to live past the execute and other dots.

This is obnoxious but I'm ok with it because of a few reasons.

I'm always free to challenge that player again with a different build because I can see them when they are on the battlefield.

Not everyone can pull off this combo. Yes it's simple but not such that people really flocked to it and while some can do it once, this person was just consistently good at it while even being outnumbered so I know they had to work at it somewhat in the context of being under pressure and not being able to just disappear.

Point is that while I have nothing against cloak play, it can be more so annoying when you want to just fight it out and the enemy is just constantly disappearing while also having great damage while also having grade a heals. That's not an overall balanced fight and just tends to kill the fun especially when used in an annoying fashion.

Turtle_Bot

ahhh yes, the same tired old "but sorcs can 1 shot too" excuse that is always put forward that also conveniently, completely, (deliberately) ignoring the fact that the sorc needs to line up 4+ abilities perfectly (with a 3.5-4 second cooldown because curse is 3.5seconds, not 3 seconds like claimed above and that 4 second cooldown is only if the sorc has perfected that combo...) that costs upwards of 7400 stamina + 25 ultimate to cast 1 combo, which is completely countered by 1 single dodge roll, all of which the sorc has to do this while remaining completely visible the entire time and when the enemy does catch them because of how free and accessible movement speed has gotten, the sorc doesn't even have any healing to back it up and attempt to reset the fight.

Meanwhile NB sits there with a pre-charged AW (that for some reason never loses its stacks and is completely free to pre-charge costing literally 0 resources to charge it, in fact it generates a lot of ultimate while charging it), walks up completely unseen to incap into AW that has at minimum of + 300 + 300 + 30% modifiers on an ability that has the highest single instance non-ultimate tooltip in the entire game, which is also very close to (5% lower) than the highest single instance burst ultimate tooltip in the game (take flight), all of which is on an ability that costs 33% less than any spammable in the game (1890 magicka) that also provides a full burst heal worth of healing when its used in melee range and when the NB fails the kill it gets to completely vanish and freely, completely, reset itself to go in again and if it does somehow get caught it also has one of the strongest burst heals in the entire game to fall back on as well as an absurd amount of defensive tools and buffs (many of which even the tank classes don't have access to).

The ability and ease for the 2 classes to deal that amount of damage are not even remotely close. NB is minimum risk/effort, all reward, sorcerer is very high risk and maximum effort with minimum reward.

DrNukenstein

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The ability and ease for the 2 classes to deal that amount of damage are not even remotely close. NB has to put themselves at risk in melee and the combo requires a dodgeable ultimate. The all reward sorcerer is very low risk and minimum effort with it's ability to stay away from the fight and throw 4-skill globals on demand unless people make the decision to drop what they're doing and go over there to stop them.

fixed it. Also, sorcs can crouch and crouching does work.

OBJnoob

When crouching grants sorc major savagery we can talk.

DrNukenstein

OBJnoob wrote: »

When crouching grants sorc major savagery we can talk.

It doesn't, but it sure can let them (really any class, but especially sorc) deliver a lethal ranged combo from out of combat with no tell.

ZhuJiuyin

Oh my God!
It's outrageous that Sorc can block, crouch, and run in the game.NB is so pitiful in comparison, it should be buffed, right?


#Satire

Turtle_Bot

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The ability and ease for the 2 classes to deal that amount of damage are not even remotely close. NB is minimum risk/effort, all reward, sorcerer is very high risk and maximum effort with minimum reward.

fixed it. Also, my clear bias for NB and obvious blind hatred of sorcs is clear on display for all to see.

There, fixed your "Fix" for you.

TechMaybeHic

Games really struggling for population apparently. Back in the day; any discussions about nerfing NB or Sorc broke down to sorc vs NB by the end of the first page

SeaGtGruff

SandandStars wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

a good Nightblade isn't any more obscene than the average DK or dot sorc. People always, in every game, have a disproportionate problem with the stealth class compared to the others.

If it's that OP, how come you aren't playing it?

I don’t play NB because I enjoy competition.

I don’t find beating people on an overtuned class satisfying.

Like, why would I feel good about winning a sword fight with a grenade? That’s merciless resolve+ nbs absurdly overtuned toolkit. Look at the offensive skill advantages in pvp, and then look at NBs heals. It’s off by a magnitude.

It's definitely possible to play a Nightblade-- or any other class-- without being cheesily over-powered. I should know, because my characters are prime examples. I mean, if you don't want to play a Nightblade-- or any other particular class-- then don't; but don't think you're required to play a given class as cheesily over-powered as possible, because you aren't.

Galeriano

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The ability and ease for the 2 classes to deal that amount of damage are not even remotely close. NB has to put themselves at risk in melee and the combo requires a dodgeable ultimate. The all reward sorcerer is very low risk and minimum effort with it's ability to stay away from the fight and throw 4-skill globals on demand unless people make the decision to drop what they're doing and go over there to stop them.

fixed it. Also, sorcs can crouch and crouching does work.

Well You fix missed few important factors. Nightblade can easily lower risk that comes from staying in meele by using shadow image beforehand and porting back to safe spot right after he unloads burst combo. He also have acces to soul tether instead of incap which is undodgable high dmg AoE ultimate with stun and also provides user with a bit of healing. Nightblade is also in no shape or form tied to being in meele.

What does it even mean "all reward sorcerer"? Literally every class can stay away from the fight especially now after mist was changed.

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

When crouching grants sorc major savagery we can talk.

It doesn't, but it sure can let them (really any class, but especially sorc) deliver a lethal ranged combo from out of combat with no tell.

That was obvious from the start but the more important part the NB handles differently from every class is everything that happens after you come out of stealth. Also again the amount of work for the same level of damage is so vastly different.

I'm all in favor of a good comparison or even argument with supporting facts or merit but this comparison is very thin at this point.

The truth is that if what you're saying here was all that relevant we'd see more cases of it in the game. Note I'm not saying it's not possible or didn't happen, just that it's not relevant to this conversation because we're talking about something so easy for NB to do that it's currently all over the game being used by those both skilled and unskilled to generally good results.


I enjoy sorc and I enjoy high damage and seen sometimes ganking but what you're describing is just a niche that some will try but that hasn't and likely won't catch on en mass like incap bow has.

DrNukenstein

If I add up the base damage (which implies a damage ratio) of those 4 sorc skills that can be delivered repeatedly from range/out of combat and compare it to the much maligned but gated incap>spec bow combo here is how they compare

*Numbers taken from eso skill book

Crystal weapon (1st hit):2091
Power overload: 2640
Deadly aim: 2404
Poison Injection: 1161 with significant execute scaling, this is important because it's the last part of the combo that would hit in that 1 second.

total: 8296, with current health scaling benefitting the first few hits and missing health benifitting the last hit. A true three pointer. Really a 4 pointer if such things existed. since it's 4 readily spammable skills crammed into one GCD delivered from a safe range or out of combat if one so chooses. Curse could be added for more damage, but it would alert the target and if you can't get them with 4 skills in one second, why would you think 5 would make the difference?


Incap: 3718
Merciless resolve: 4752

total: 8470, delivered in two seperate GCDs with 3 loud sound effects the first being the "wooosh" you hear when a nightblade with bow ready get's close. There are nice modifiers, but are they really that much better than the modifiers the combo above has access to? Since the combo is sequential, and not stacked it is possible that half this combo hits where as the combo above is hit or miss due to happening in one GCD.

The point is there is at least one other class that can do that kind of damage out of nowhere and is equally enabled to deliver that damage and is at least as safe while doing so.

Bushido2513

Ok here we go. The things you are bypassing or just ignoring are growing quickly growing. I mean be serious here.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

If I add up the base damage (which implies a damage ratio) of those 4 sorc skills that can be delivered repeatedly from range/out of combat and compare it to the much maligned but gated incap>spec bow combo here is how they compare

So 1 of those skills, overload has an aim component. I know because I use them daily. If you are off or your target moves they will miss.
Incap and bow will only work when the game locks on for you.

So already easily repeatable for one of the skills goes out the window.

Also repeatable needs to be defined. You can repeat the attempt but you will not be able to repeat if the initial volley fails . Your target is alert and will come for you and yes you can streak but that's it, target is aware and you will likely have to move on.

A NB will be able to just cloak and start another hard hitting attack immediately. Even a bad one can light.attack twice, cloak, move, repeat till now and possibly kill you with no stun incap into bow into cw spam. The sorc will not have the option to reengage without a much higher risk level.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

*Numbers taken from eso skill book

Crystal weapon (1st hit):2091
Power overload: 2640
Deadly aim: 2404
Poison Injection: 1161 with significant execute scaling, this is important because it's the last part of the combo that would hit in that 1 second.

total: 8296, with current health scaling benefitting the first few hits and missing health benifitting the last hit. A true three pointer. Really a 4 pointer if such things existed. since it's 4 readily spammable skills crammed into one GCD delivered from a safe range or out of combat if one so chooses. Curse could be added for more damage, but it would alert the target and if you can't get them with 4 skills in one second, why would you think 5 would make the difference?


Incap: 3718
Merciless resolve: 4752

total: 8470, delivered in two seperate GCDs with 3 loud sound effects the first being the "wooosh" you hear when a nightblade with bow ready get's close. There are nice modifiers, but are they really that much better than the modifiers the combo above has access to?

Simple easy answer anyone can see is yes. The NB has sooooooo much more damage available through crit modifiers from the build and skills that there's just no comparison. So dragoox recently did a video with a sorc running basically one of the crit builds a NB would run, axes, rally, some other crit set and he was nuking in melee range. My point is that a bow setup doesn't have those modifiers. So NO that bow gank sorc won't be hitting as hard by far. I've also personally tried it in the reverse way, same setup but with bow in a NB, guess what, the damage went down with the only change being axes to a bow. Biggggggg difference.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

The point is there is at least one other class that can do that kind of damage out of nowhere and is equally enabled to deliver that damage and is at least as safe while doing so.

No, no there isn't, see points above. Also you use the word safe. As a person that has been chased many many many times by thirsty players I need you to understand, if you can't actually disappear you are never safe. People have chased me across the map. As long as they can highlight you and stay in range they can find you! They will call friends in group chat, get on horse etc. Do I need to tell you which class can easily nullify this with just one press of a skill?


So again I enjoy hearing great arguments with supporting info but all that you're saying isn't really supported.

DrNukenstein

repeatable: Not gated by skills that require stacks or are available around once per minute

The fact is, every component of sorc burst is repeatable by that definition while NB burst is not. It's also within comparable margins. If you can do even 85% of incap>bow on demand from range that's a very powerful thing to have access to.

It would take less time for a sorc to streak away and setup again than it would for the comparable NB to build another incap stun. Even if it's not every 3 seconds in practice, it's a lot more accessible than the incap>spec bow combo that is so out of line.

No, power overload is not the one projectile in the game that can be zigzagged. It just has a significant travel time, and rolls are pretty generous when they consider success.

I get chased all the time too. I get chased through cloak, I get chased through shade. People even put traps under my shades or wait next to it. A number of players tag me on sight with the mages guild dot which shuts down cloak for 20+ seconds depending on passives. The grass is always greener. Instant free mobility and a stun is at least as reliable as cloak is today unless... you're range-blading in which case yes, the self peel tools absolutely do work as advertised all the time.

OBJnoob

Sometimes words just don't accurately describe reality. You put fourth a decent argument @DrNukenstein but surely you know where the green grass grows.

For whatever ineffible reason NB is incredibly strong and Sorc is incredibly weak. Any long drawn out hypothetical that persuades someone to the opposite opinion is misleading at best.

DrNukenstein

NB is very strong on paper right now. It has so many named buffs acquired from so many different abilities that it can act as it's own support. Why else would the entire solo leaderboard for EA be nightblades?

But sorc is a strong class outside of the spread sheet, and sorc players claiming otherwise is misleading at best. Just play a BG with a sorc that pops off, doesn't have to be you. There are no nightblades that play like that, not even the really really good ones. You can't sincerely claim it's weak when such outlier performances are so common on that class.

How do you quantify the value of instant on demand mobility with a guaranteed stun (in one skill) against cloak and shade? How do you quantify the value of being able to cram 4+ skills into a one GCD hit against being able to land 2 very powerful sequential hits across 2 GCD's?

Like these are powerful things that exist outside of "the spread sheet" and are a lot more significant than 215 weapon and spell damage from minor courage or a free roll after eating 10 hits. I'll tell you one thing though, on paper sorc is way more supportable by virtue of not getting its power from named buffs.

Not saying nightblade is weaker than sorc, but it's not as far off as people like to front it is.

Turtle_Bot

DrNukenstein wrote: »

If I add up the base damage (which implies a damage ratio) of those 4 sorc skills that can be delivered repeatedly from range/out of combat and compare it to the much maligned but gated incap>spec bow combo here is how they compare

*Numbers taken from eso skill book

Crystal weapon (1st hit):2091
Power overload: 2640
Deadly aim: 2404
Poison Injection: 1161 with significant execute scaling, this is important because it's the last part of the combo that would hit in that 1 second.

total: 8296, with current health scaling benefitting the first few hits and missing health benifitting the last hit. A true three pointer. Really a 4 pointer if such things existed. since it's 4 readily spammable skills crammed into one GCD delivered from a safe range or out of combat if one so chooses. Curse could be added for more damage, but it would alert the target and if you can't get them with 4 skills in one second, why would you think 5 would make the difference?


Incap: 3718
Merciless resolve: 4752

total: 8470, delivered in two seperate GCDs with 3 loud sound effects the first being the "wooosh" you hear when a nightblade with bow ready get's close. There are nice modifiers, but are they really that much better than the modifiers the combo above has access to? Since the combo is sequential, and not stacked it is possible that half this combo hits where as the combo above is hit or miss due to happening in one GCD.

The point is there is at least one other class that can do that kind of damage out of nowhere and is equally enabled to deliver that damage and is at least as safe while doing so.

I didn't realise that Snipe and Poison Injection were sorc exclusive abilities. How are NBs allowed to use those "sorc exclusive" abilities then? (your inference, not mine)

You keep proving more and more that your comments are nothing but pure bias and misleading (at best). Stop trying to defend the indefensible with this continued deflection nonsense.

Also, lets talk about sound tells, snipe has a distinct thwap when its launched, same with overload and its zap sound when the projectile is launched. Both of these projectiles also have a slow travel time meaning you have even more time to dodge roll them than you would a melee range ability like incap (even if you have delay).

None of these abilities in the sorc combo come with a built in stun either, essentially guaranteeing the follow up to land.

Lets also talk about the cost numbers then shall we? Since you want to put forward there being a "Ratio".

Cost of casting sorcerer combo:
4 GCD
25 Ultimate
7425 Stamina
2 Bow weapon abilities
Forced weapon choice on front bar (prevents running better options such as DW).

Results in 8296 base damage.

Cost of casting NB combo:
2 GCD
70/120 ultimate
1890 Magicka
No global abilities required
No forced weapon choice

Results in 8470 base damage.

So despite taking twice as long to set up the combo (that doesn't have a stun attached to it), requiring 2 globally available weapon abilities that other classes (including NB) can also use, and a forced weapon choice, it still does 2% less damage than the NB combo at base.
This also completely ignores the far too many damage modifiers that NB has access to. If we actually account for those modifiers NB has, just spec bow alone is dealing as much if not more damage than that entire sorc combo and spec bow is ranged too.

Fun fact, the sorc ultimate cost goes up because of vamp stage 3, meanwhile the NB stun threshold for incap remains at a flat 120 ultimate.

If we ignore saving for the stun on incap, the sorc combo also loses out on resource cost too. Sorc combo costs roughly 4 times as much basic resources while the NB combo costs less than 3 times as much ultimate. Accounting for saving for the incap stun, this becomes much more even in terms of resource cost where NB costs roughly 4 times as much ultimate, but sorc costs 4 times as much basic resources.

As was mentioned earlier, overload requires the target to be stunned (at least not moving) to actually land its slow projectile meaning that its more likely to just miss entirely after still casting itself into thin air. That completely takes away both overload and crystal weapon since that was a light attack that was cast. Meaning the damage being done against a moving/defending target is just snipe/poison injection. Also remember that this combo does not have a built in stun.

For that amount of investment of effort and resources into a burst combo, the sorc combo should be dealing twice as much damage as it currently does.

The NB combo is just objectively more efficient, easier and stronger than any sorc combo.

That doesn't even take into account defensive options. As was stated before players are extremely kill thirsty in PvP and the ONLY way to get them off your back is to completely vanish from their view. Only NB can do this, a streaking sorc will always be visible to them and will always get chased down and killed because everyone knows that sorc has zero real defense options outside of streak (shields are a bad mechanic and healing is non-existent on sorc).

Turtle_Bot

The reason NB is so unbalanced right now and will always be an issue in PvP, is because it completely ignores the downsides of melee combat while having the inflated base damage that melee gets.

If NB wants to keep its ability to completely ignore the downsides of melee combat via cloak, then it should be forced to suffer the same penalties that ranged combat suffers from (reduced damage, slow projectiles, built in generic (globally available) counter mechanics, etc), especially if NB wants to keep the current top tier defensive options it has access to that the ranged class doesn't have.

DrNukenstein

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

If I add up the base damage (which implies a damage ratio) of those 4 sorc skills that can be delivered repeatedly from range/out of combat and compare it to the much maligned but gated incap>spec bow combo here is how they compare

*Numbers taken from eso skill book

Crystal weapon (1st hit):2091
Power overload: 2640
Deadly aim: 2404
Poison Injection: 1161 with significant execute scaling, this is important because it's the last part of the combo that would hit in that 1 second.

total: 8296, with current health scaling benefitting the first few hits and missing health benifitting the last hit. A true three pointer. Really a 4 pointer if such things existed. since it's 4 readily spammable skills crammed into one GCD delivered from a safe range or out of combat if one so chooses. Curse could be added for more damage, but it would alert the target and if you can't get them with 4 skills in one second, why would you think 5 would make the difference?


Incap: 3718
Merciless resolve: 4752

total: 8470, delivered in two seperate GCDs with 3 loud sound effects the first being the "wooosh" you hear when a nightblade with bow ready get's close. There are nice modifiers, but are they really that much better than the modifiers the combo above has access to? Since the combo is sequential, and not stacked it is possible that half this combo hits where as the combo above is hit or miss due to happening in one GCD.

The point is there is at least one other class that can do that kind of damage out of nowhere and is equally enabled to deliver that damage and is at least as safe while doing so.

I didn't realise that Snipe and Poison Injection were sorc exclusive abilities. How are NBs allowed to use those "sorc exclusive" abilities then? (your inference, not mine)

You keep proving more and more that your comments are nothing but pure bias and misleading (at best). Stop trying to defend the indefensible with this continued deflection nonsense.

Also, lets talk about sound tells, snipe has a distinct thwap when its launched, same with overload and its zap sound when the projectile is launched. Both of these projectiles also have a slow travel time meaning you have even more time to dodge roll them than you would a melee range ability like incap (even if you have delay).

None of these abilities in the sorc combo come with a built in stun either, essentially guaranteeing the follow up to land.

Lets also talk about the cost numbers then shall we? Since you want to put forward there being a "Ratio".

Cost of casting sorcerer combo:
4 GCD
25 Ultimate
7425 Stamina
2 Bow weapon abilities
Forced weapon choice on front bar (prevents running better options such as DW).

Results in 8296 base damage.

Cost of casting NB combo:
2 GCD
70/120 ultimate
1890 Magicka
No global abilities required
No forced weapon choice

Results in 8470 base damage.

So despite taking twice as long to set up the combo (that doesn't have a stun attached to it), requiring 2 globally available weapon abilities that other classes (including NB) can also use, and a forced weapon choice, it still does 2% less damage than the NB combo at base.
This also completely ignores the far too many damage modifiers that NB has access to. If we actually account for those modifiers NB has, just spec bow alone is dealing as much if not more damage than that entire sorc combo and spec bow is ranged too.

Fun fact, the sorc ultimate cost goes up because of vamp stage 3, meanwhile the NB stun threshold for incap remains at a flat 120 ultimate.

If we ignore saving for the stun on incap, the sorc combo also loses out on resource cost too. Sorc combo costs roughly 4 times as much basic resources while the NB combo costs less than 3 times as much ultimate. Accounting for saving for the incap stun, this becomes much more even in terms of resource cost where NB costs roughly 4 times as much ultimate, but sorc costs 4 times as much basic resources.

As was mentioned earlier, overload requires the target to be stunned (at least not moving) to actually land its slow projectile meaning that its more likely to just miss entirely after still casting itself into thin air. That completely takes away both overload and crystal weapon since that was a light attack that was cast. Meaning the damage being done against a moving/defending target is just snipe/poison injection. Also remember that this combo does not have a built in stun.

For that amount of investment of effort and resources into a burst combo, the sorc combo should be dealing twice as much damage as it currently does.

The NB combo is just objectively more efficient, easier and stronger than any sorc combo.

That doesn't even take into account defensive options. As was stated before players are extremely kill thirsty in PvP and the ONLY way to get them off your back is to completely vanish from their view. Only NB can do this, a streaking sorc will always be visible to them and will always get chased down and killed because everyone knows that sorc has zero real defense options outside of streak (shields are a bad mechanic and healing is non-existent on sorc).

Pot meet kettle.

Incap stun cost scales with vamp penalties last I played (today). Picking at scemantics of using the term "sorc skills" when referring to what would uniquely be a sorc combo. All of the sorc resources spent can be replenished in under ten seconds. Instead of taking time to move within melee range of the target you cast one skill before doing (ranged) skill>la>skill. Comparing the penalty of a whiff on a once per minute combo to a combo that is only gated by opportunity to do it. Yeah I used bow skills as an example because that's probably the easiest way to do it. They could do it with dswing and execute, but that would actually be impressive to pull off. It's news to me that you can just side step overload, it hits me unless I roll.

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

The fact is, every component of sorc burst is repeatable by that definition while NB burst is not. It's also within comparable margins. If you can do even 85% of incap>bow on demand from range that's a very powerful thing to have access to.

Mostly the big complaint with nb isn't about how powerful the attack is but that it is usually followed by the best defensive options in the game. But ok let's follow this thread, powerful on demand from range you say. Instead of getting further into things I've already explained I'll put it to you this way. If this is as powerful as you say it is then why aren't we seeing more of it? I exclusively pvp any time other than when I have to pvp and I can tell you that this hasn't been something I've seen at all.

Also I recently did a ton of research on ranged play options because I was playing hybrid ranged stam and wanted to check out options before switching to full mag sorc. In my research the combo you speak of barely came up.

Example of my research

This guy loves one shot combos and no I'm not saying I know every build or build poster but giving examples of research.

https://www.youtube.com/@esolucacash/videos

No mention of a sorc ranged high damage snipe pi overload etc combo build here but plenty for nb.

This guy has a mention of a sniper but I'll let you guess what class he felt was best for the build.

https://www.youtube.com/@epic-buttkkr/videos

Like in looking at this for just a few minutes I'm finding wayyyyyy more info on how to make a high damage bow gank nb than I am a sorc. If you have a link that you can post to something you can find I'd be interested to see it but from I'm seeing you'd have to dig.

Meanwhile incap bow videos, info, etc can be found at pretty much every turn of a search.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

It would take less time for a sorc to streak away and setup again than it would for the comparable NB to build another incap stun. Even if it's not every 3 seconds in practice, it's a lot more accessible than the incap>spec bow combo that is so out of line.

This is actually correct in that it takes more time to build ult than to jus say move away and crouch again. That being said, the nb has several options that don't even require leaving to reset. A nb can just keep building and shooting bows at you while building ult, same with hitting you with concealed weapon. But ok the natural answer to that is what about counters and detect pots.

So here's the thing, streak is cool but movement speed at this point in the game equals it. A nb that knows how to use path or any other access to expedition will likely be able to stay just out of range while light attacking, cloaking, moving into the edge of range, shooting a bow, rinse repeat. My point is if you run towards the sorc they would have to run or be at risk, the nb has a great kit and good healing to back it up so if they want they can just simply choose to fight you while they build up the combo. This has happened to me on several occasions.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

No, power overload is not the one projectile in the game that can be zigzagged. It just has a significant travel time, and rolls are pretty generous when they consider success.

As you said it may be news to you but overload works differently than just being dodged. If you are outside of the target area when you shoot it or the target moves it can miss. I've actually had someone cc'd and on my screen not moving and just watched the overload sail past them. It's rather ridiculous when you see it happen right in front of you which is why I remember. Spec bow doesn't work this way, yes it can be dodged but other than that it will hit.

So when you imagine the two scenarios being repeated just remember to list that overload can just miss if it for whatever reason decides to. Probably something to do with light attack rules of the game vs how the game handles bow as a projectile but still it happens.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I get chased all the time too. I get chased through cloak, I get chased through shade. People even put traps under my shades or wait next to it. A number of players tag me on sight with the mages guild dot which shuts down cloak for 20+ seconds depending on passives. The grass is always greener. Instant free mobility and a stun is at least as reliable as cloak is today unless... you're range-blading in which case yes, the self peel tools absolutely do work as advertised all the time.

So when I say chased I mean as both a sorc and a nb.

Reasons not important but I wanted to make a build that could always get away so I thoroughly tested both sorc and nb who have some of the best escape options in the game. I gave them max movement speed and more than enough recoveries.

My conclusion was this, nb is the winner when it comes to which class can have the best chance of escaping the majority of the time. I didn't include the use of invis pots because I didn't want to start having to spend gold on that, try to get used to it etc. I did try vamp 4 running but the resource drain starts to kill the rest of the build.

But let's look at this another way that I hope makes sense to you.

You could put cloak on sorc right now and people would still stay on nb and do incaps an bows for the majority rather than going to the combo you're talking about.

Why do all that work, hope you hit them,............

Wait scratch that, I'm being dumb now. So I just recalled one of the links I posted has a video on a ranged gankblade that's basically doing the same thing you talk about on sorc but with nb.

So my question would be then, if you can do this on sorc and have access to both ranged and up close ganking, better escape options, better healing, just an overall better class. Whyyyyyy would you try to do the same thing on a class like sorc with less of a kit????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6_MJo8CD4A


At that point even saying that they can now both do the same thing doesn't matter unless you're going to now argue that sorc and nb are in the class tier? And before you maybe try to answer that please see the link below as they aren't.


https://eso-pvp-builds.com/class-tier-list/

DrNukenstein

Why are we calling skill>skill>la>skill from 30+ meters hard work?

Of course there aren't videos on this broken sorc gameplay. People keep their best builds to themselves. Why would anyone publicize such an obscene combo that can gib anyone from full health anytime? God forbid people start thinking sorc is strong.

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Why are we calling skill>skill>la>skill from 30+ meters hard work?

Of course there aren't videos on this broken sorc gameplay. People keep their best builds to themselves. Why would anyone publicize such an obscene combo that can gib anyone from full health anytime? God forbid people start thinking sorc is strong.

I mean when dk could actually do what you're saying there were several build videos. There are no secret builds anymore because generally the game isn't popular enough to make keeping a secret worth it at this point.

Also the hardest hitting combos are brain dead simple.

Again why look for this super secret combo you speak of when I just posted a NB that could do just the same and with stealth and healing to boot?

Even if what your described was a thing it would be inferior to the NB build posted above.

DrNukenstein

Maybe the exact combo I described doesn't happen all the time but similar ones do, and they frequently lead to a single sorc 1v11ing an entire lobby of people who do this regularly. This is either extremely common because sorc mains are just better than other players, or their kit actually is the bustedest of kits.

Antrox41

If i were to nerf NB here are what I would do.

Cloak
-Remove the crit bonus and introduce ramping cost to the stealth morph. Or could also introduce a mechanic if you are taken out of stealth abruptly in between the 3 seconds you cannot re-enter for at least another 1 second. (Point is you should not be able to spam this and dodge everything thrown at you while at the same time resetting a fight completely)

Merciless
-Remove the burst heal and reduce the damage done by at least 20-40% for both morphs or less (This ability should not be doing more damage then incap or other ultimate's as a base ability.)

Incap
-Increase the ultimate cost to at least 100-125 and have the stun proc at 150 ultimate. Reduce the increased damage taken to 15%.

Tether
-Increase the cost of both morphs to 170. This an AOE burst damage/heal ultimate that both does damage and heals you for a pretty insane amount and should be in line with others of the sort like meteor which doesn't heal you.