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nightblades out of control in pvp
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FoJul✭✭✭✭Cloak has always been a problem since day 1 of Eso.
It's not cloak that is an issue, it's a nightblade and devs refusal to balance it.
There are two classes with unique evasiveness features in the game sorc and nightblade and when You compare roards they traveled during last 10 years You can see how one class is favoured over the other. Both classes were problematic in early stages of the game. Sorc had strong mobility, good defense with shields, adventage of being ranged and having nice control over the enemies with good CCs and good burst dmg. Nightblade had good defense through evasiveness and stealth, good mobility, decent control over the enemies and very high burst.
When You look at sorc ZoS targeted almost every of the mentioned aspects and nerfed it. Streak recived a nerf so it is more expensive to cast multiple times in a row, ball of lightning which had strong projectile absorption had it nerfed to the ground. Shields and shieldstacking recived series of nerfs from shortening the shield duration, through removing crit resist to caping shield values. Ranged capabilities of sorc were nerfed by removing acces to reliable ranged stuns in crystal frag and rune prison and replacing them with stun on streak that forces sorc to engage in meele fight if he wants to stun enemy. At the same time mines were nerfed so sorcs can't use them to effectively control meele attackers. Sorc's burst dmg went back and forth through series of adjustments. So at the end of the day from having all of the things mentioned earlier almost everything was nerfed and only one aspect which is mobility remained on a decent level. ZoS even removed overload 3rd bar so sorcs would'nt have enough space for better utility managments. They also added close to none minor/major buffs and debuffs to sorc's kit to compensate for sometimes really massive nerfs to core sorc abilities. During last 4-5 years more noticable PvP buffs were latest bound armanets passively working on both bars and adding minor berserk and minor force. it's almost laughable.
On the other hand we have a nightblade that even when recived some nerfs or tweaks, later on they were heavily compensated sometimes resulting with initially nerfed thing becoming stronger than it was. Nightbade still have good defense through evasiveness and stealth, even better mobility, even better control over the enemies and his very high burst remained very high. Class also recived a spammable burst healing which it was always lacking and not just some average burst healing but one of the better in the game.
Double standards when it comes to nightblade are more than obvious. When sorc recived series of nerfs to aspects he was shining in, nightblade not only recived barely any noticable nerfs or even buffs to aspects he was shining in but he also started to shine in new areas. The only fair route to balance cloak would be to do the same to nb that ZoS did to sorc and nerf literally everything else.
I remember an era when Sorc was the meta class for almost 5 years straight. They the crit surge nerf, and the shield nerf was the only thing that brough sorcs down. People just abandoned it, because it was easier to get on a DK and parse everything. Or nightblade and burst everything. Sorc's damage never left, it was their survivability in question.
That being said Even to this day Sorc>rangeblade anyone will tell you. Almost no one played melee nightblade outside of stamblades. And this newer hybrid blade playstyle, is literally a stamblade with a tank set *rallying cry* and suprise attack changed to concealed.
Nightblade has recieved a burst heal because the class never had a burst heal nor did it have a class shield. That put nightblade behind for years. Nightblade is strong, dont get me wrong but its not above most of the classes. DK is still above NB, the only class that I'd say nightblade is 100% stronger than is necro. In some situations, I still see the other classes shine.
Sorcs were favored for a long time, DKs were favored off an on for a long time, and Plar (used) to be favored for a long time. It goes in waves when you see.
I think if I had to guess they are trying to bring everything's power up. Warden got huge buffs, nightblade keeps getting buffs, Dk gets more buffs. Sorc now getting a huge buff. Arcanist came out, and they slightly nerfed/buffed it. Whats strange to me, is there is absolutely no work being done to plar. Necro is the *eeeeeeee* of all classes. We getting a crazy new change, but cant say yet if its a nerf or buff. Necro deff needs bigger than huge buff.
For DK, Warden, Plar, Nightblade, Arcanist, and Sorcerer, you can make a very strong build. The meta build. When it comes to build diversity, really Warden and Dk are the only ones you can get creative with.1 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭StarOfElyon wrote: »My necro wears Markyn, NMA, and Wretch Vitality with 25k health in Battle Grounds. The only reason we're in a "tanky meta" is that everyone is scared to die in PVP.
Lets be fair though, a lot of toxic players are posting videos of killing specific people, lol.
People built tanky, cause they were tired of seeing themselves in 1vX clips LOL.1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭StarOfElyon wrote: »My necro wears Markyn, NMA, and Wretch Vitality with 25k health in Battle Grounds. The only reason we're in a "tanky meta" is that everyone is scared to die in PVP.
Lets be fair though, a lot of toxic players are posting videos of killing specific people, lol.
People built tanky, cause they were tired of seeing themselves in 1vX clips LOL.
It have nothing to do with clips, majority of PvPers don;t even watch PvP clips regularly.
People just don't like to die especially out of nowhere and latest nb iterations that resulted with overflow of bowblades are one of the reasons people started to build even more tanky. It is not the only reason but definietly one of the more important ones.5 -
AeltharionSoul ShrivenWhen I was new my worst nightmare was nightblades and it still is, this class is unbalanced. When you ask newer players why they don’t like PvP they always complain about getting 1shot out of no where and there’s only one class that does that.
Especially because most nightblades use the squishy finder add on to pick off easy targets
To counter this I have to build tanky, use sets that are not fun or don’t like but necessary and that still doesn’t work.
My suggestion to balance nightblade is
Remove guaranteed critical strike from cloak or give 33% increase cost per cast for cloak similar to streak or the vampire one.
That’s it, these changes would not affect it on PvE.5 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cloak has always been a problem since day 1 of Eso.
It's not cloak that is an issue, it's a nightblade and devs refusal to balance it.
There are two classes with unique evasiveness features in the game sorc and nightblade and when You compare roards they traveled during last 10 years You can see how one class is favoured over the other. Both classes were problematic in early stages of the game. Sorc had strong mobility, good defense with shields, adventage of being ranged and having nice control over the enemies with good CCs and good burst dmg. Nightblade had good defense through evasiveness and stealth, good mobility, decent control over the enemies and very high burst.
When You look at sorc ZoS targeted almost every of the mentioned aspects and nerfed it. Streak recived a nerf so it is more expensive to cast multiple times in a row, ball of lightning which had strong projectile absorption had it nerfed to the ground. Shields and shieldstacking recived series of nerfs from shortening the shield duration, through removing crit resist to caping shield values. Ranged capabilities of sorc were nerfed by removing acces to reliable ranged stuns in crystal frag and rune prison and replacing them with stun on streak that forces sorc to engage in meele fight if he wants to stun enemy. At the same time mines were nerfed so sorcs can't use them to effectively control meele attackers. Sorc's burst dmg went back and forth through series of adjustments. So at the end of the day from having all of the things mentioned earlier almost everything was nerfed and only one aspect which is mobility remained on a decent level. ZoS even removed overload 3rd bar so sorcs would'nt have enough space for better utility managments. They also added close to none minor/major buffs and debuffs to sorc's kit to compensate for sometimes really massive nerfs to core sorc abilities. During last 4-5 years more noticable PvP buffs were latest bound armanets passively working on both bars and adding minor berserk and minor force. it's almost laughable.
On the other hand we have a nightblade that even when recived some nerfs or tweaks, later on they were heavily compensated sometimes resulting with initially nerfed thing becoming stronger than it was. Nightbade still have good defense through evasiveness and stealth, even better mobility, even better control over the enemies and his very high burst remained very high. Class also recived a spammable burst healing which it was always lacking and not just some average burst healing but one of the better in the game.
Double standards when it comes to nightblade are more than obvious. When sorc recived series of nerfs to aspects he was shining in, nightblade not only recived barely any noticable nerfs or even buffs to aspects he was shining in but he also started to shine in new areas. The only fair route to balance cloak would be to do the same to nb that ZoS did to sorc and nerf literally everything else.
I remember an era when Sorc was the meta class for almost 5 years straight. They the crit surge nerf, and the shield nerf was the only thing that brough sorcs down. People just abandoned it, because it was easier to get on a DK and parse everything. Or nightblade and burst everything. Sorc's damage never left, it was their survivability in question.
That being said Even to this day Sorc>rangeblade anyone will tell you. Almost no one played melee nightblade outside of stamblades. And this newer hybrid blade playstyle, is literally a stamblade with a tank set *rallying cry* and suprise attack changed to concealed.
Nightblade has recieved a burst heal because the class never had a burst heal nor did it have a class shield. That put nightblade behind for years. Nightblade is strong, dont get me wrong but its not above most of the classes. DK is still above NB, the only class that I'd say nightblade is 100% stronger than is necro. In some situations, I still see the other classes shine.
Sorcs were favored for a long time, DKs were favored off an on for a long time, and Plar (used) to be favored for a long time. It goes in waves when you see.
I think if I had to guess they are trying to bring everything's power up. Warden got huge buffs, nightblade keeps getting buffs, Dk gets more buffs. Sorc now getting a huge buff. Arcanist came out, and they slightly nerfed/buffed it. Whats strange to me, is there is absolutely no work being done to plar. Necro is the *eeeeeeee* of all classes. We getting a crazy new change, but cant say yet if its a nerf or buff. Necro deff needs bigger than huge buff.
For DK, Warden, Plar, Nightblade, Arcanist, and Sorcerer, you can make a very strong build. The meta build. When it comes to build diversity, really Warden and Dk are the only ones you can get creative with.
Could You care to name the 5 year long time period when sorc was a meta? Because I play this game since release and I don't recall such a thing. First 3 years were basically DK, nb and sorc switching at top positions then warden was released and he took 1st place for a moment than in 2017/18 rune cage meta brought sorc back for a moment and after nerf to that there was a short period of replacing rune cage with master destro but after that sorc was in a steady decline in tier lists with stamsorc occasionally popping up in high spots. Nightblade on the other hand was almost always high in the tier lists with very often taking top spot. So math aint mathing here. Sorc was doing still ok after crit surge nerf what truly killed him was series of nerfs to almost every strong ability he had. Some abilities like shields were even targeted multiple times (duration nerf, value nerf, crit resist nerf) and ZoS even planned to add cast time to them but due to massive backlash they resigned from that idea.
Argument that range sorc is stronger at range than range nightblade means nothing and is partially not truth. One of the most succesfull and popular setups atm is bowblade which is a type of ranged nightblade. Magsorc is designed in its core as a ranged setup and throughout years he was stripped out of everything that would allow him to brawl in meele too much, his defense is basically keeping a distance. On the other hand adding viable range dmg to a stealth class like nightblade brings obvious concerns and we can currently see why with bowblades exploding in popularity. Being able to dish out significant amount of pressure from a distance while having easy acces to invisibility is a big issue in PvP and needs to be kept in check.
Nightblade was doing perfectly fine without burst heal for years relying just on vigor and rally because peoperly used cloak is the strongest defesive ability in the game. Heal was added to a nightblade specifically because pre hybrydisation magicka version of a class was lacking mobility and evasiveness that stamblade had to compensate for lack of burst heal but in current hybrydisation era that is no longer the case. That being said game changed in many other aspects and today there is way more brawlers that can dish out both burst and sustained dmg pressure so heal on nightblade is somewhat validated but not without changes to cloak. Sorc needed to recive massive amount of nerfs before ZoS decided to even give him a burst heal in form of pet and he needed to recive even more nerfs to recive heal on shield that pushes sorc into playing old max mag stacking playstyle while nb simply recived strong reliable burst heal with no strings attached.
Sorc was never a favoured class. He simply started strong but moving forward he was consistantly stripped out of every strong feature he initially had. If any class was favoured it's a nightblade. Good example in comparision of two extremes that devs wanted to introduce in order to balance nb and sorc. As I previously mentioned ZoS wanted to massively nerf sorc by adding cast time on shields and the only reason the didn't do it was a massive backlash from community. The other time when massive backlash from community stopped a horrible idea was when devs wanted to add silence to incap on top of dmg taken debuff thatw as already there basically granting nightblade ability to shut down people magicka abilities and ultimates after being hit with incap. That would mean basically nightblade would be able to kill almost anyone. So among biggest backlashes that devs got during PTS cycles one was a massive nerf to sorc and the other a massive buff to nb. Really doesnl't seem like sorc is favoured class here especially if we would bring up very long list of other sorc nerfs. Averaging 10 years of game existance PvP wise nb is propably the most favoured class in the game.
Problem is how they're bringing everyone's power up. They're slowly turning nb into a class that have everything that other classes have plus cloak on top of it and they don't apply any drawbacks to cloak to balance the buffs class is getting. New changes to siphoning attacks basically mean infinite sustain on a nb plus additional passive HoT healing.Edited by Galeriano on February 9, 2024 4:03PM4 -
SandandStars✭✭✭✭✭Nightblade’s string of buffs & increasing overperformance has changed pvp
I totally understand why a new or struggling pvpr plays nb, & that’s fine
But the skilled players who only play nb are ruining the game
I know a few of them and theyve been in game friends for a long time, but the imbalance has gotten so bad that I really cant respect them anymore
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Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Your Server does not exists!I recall seeing a lot of Arcanist, DKs, and Stamsorcs in OW. Maybe your on a different server?
I'm analyzing class numbers on PC/NA+EU for both CP-campaigns for over a year now and there is no server where NB is not (by far) the most played class.
Last campaign NB reached a new high with > 30% of all 7 classes and necro a new low with less then 3%.
DKs were over the last 3 month decreasing (surprise for me) from 20% to 13% and during the same time NB was increasing by almost the the difference.
That makes sense, though.
I was running a DK fire mage setup -- built to do 60K DPS when Dummy Humping, and easily able to put out a 30K combo in a one to two second window, and I watched every single arcanist and a very good number of wardens walk right through ir ... I dropped an ultimate doing over 11k damage a second, and some amphetamine soaked pogo-bunny warden kept jumping up and down in it without their health bar moving at all....
My favorite main was a sorc, and yeah, after they nerfed everything into the ground, and left it with the smallest ground dot, I stopped trying to do much with it outside of crafting .... the only thing that would make it useful is if I made it a Redguard, so other people could get their achievements a bit faster .... Templar sucks, period.
The reason so many people are going NB is because of the tank meta.... and because it is just about the ONLY class you can use anything other than the Masters DW, VATE... etc build on, and still be effective at something other than being fodder.
I finally made one.... after resisting for a while --- my second vamp, Bosmer NB. My first Vamp is a Necro I built some time ago, that I rarely bother to play. With this Bosmer, I have never been past stage 1 vamp, even though I carry plenty of Mara's potions, of both types, ... and while I have ganked 5 people, they invited it. One was a Champ DK using stealth and invis potions..... and I watched him target ONLY other players under level 30, using his chains to pull off people just trying to finish ticket quests.......
So, yeah, the bully got ganked.... and the other 4 were other gankers. I was helping some low levels finish quests, even if it was just to resurrect them once the ganker was dealt with .. However, most of the time, I use him to avoid combat, do quests and just stay out of people's way.
I've even considered the ring of the Wild Hunt .... that way I can seriously move when doing quests.... yes, the dead DO travel fast.
If you don't like the NB's running around, then maybe the way to fix it would be to break the tank meta, and remove the issue where stealth NB's are the only easy to learn counter that doesn't require taking the game on as a second job, so you can get the gear and skill needed to just be on par.... people play the game for fun.... all of it is becoming not fun for anyone.
Now that my rant is over -- I do have a suggestion - use two skills we already have in the game.... Magelight and Expert Hunter.
First, give them a bit of uptime 10 or 12 seconds, so they can be pre-emptively used.
Second, give them a better radius, for Magelight, 15 meters, same as a gap closer, and ANYONE stealthing or invisible, in that area would show up as a hazy mist, sort of like the vampire sprint thing in regular Tamriel... albeit a different color would probably work... enough that you can dodge roll, if you see it coming.
For the Expert Hunter, I would only give it a 12 meter radius, but it would add some crit resistance... the fighter's guild are vampire hunters, after all, and vampires do use stealth attacks....
The reason for the radius is that the opponent cannot cloak until they are outside that radius.... that gives the target time to go after them, use a gap closer, etc...... while still allowing for the cloak to be useful for the NB.
Now, I know some people are going to complain about stealth and bows... but face it, with Ring of the Wild Hunt, speed traits on jewelry, steed mundus, adept rider armor, and all the other ways people get speed.... it's so easy to kite, that the stealth is actually one more thing for that NB to juggle, and not as much of a help, as it is with the jump and gank playstyle.
Auldwulfe
Edited by Auldwulfe on March 1, 2024 12:49AM0 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭On a side note --- I find it absolutely hilarious that the same people complaining about NB speed are also pointing out that Sorcs aren't in the same class with streak, because EVERYONE has easy access to speed.....
As someone who plays multiple classes - this is totally hilarious .... please, keep the comedy coming.
Auldwulfe1 -
huskandhunger✭✭✭✭i'm tired of enemies constantly cloaking it's annoying
i'm trying to use the detection potion, but good nightblades will just wait until it wears to return later and kill you even still 
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BetweenMidgets✭✭✭✭✭Your Server does not exists!
I'm analyzing class numbers on PC/NA+EU for both CP-campaigns for over a year now and there is no server where NB is not (by far) the most played class.
Last campaign NB reached a new high with > 30% of all 7 classes and necro a new low with less then 3%.
DKs were over the last 3 month decreasing (surprise for me) from 20% to 13% and during the same time NB was increasing by almost the the difference.
Anecdotally, I would agree with this. But I'm curious as to how you're getting the data to analyze. Seems like something I'd like to get into.
Edit: What have you see the Arcanist numbers in Cyro to be?Edited by BetweenMidgets on February 29, 2024 11:51PMPC-NA1 -
Zabagad✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Because it is OT here I tried to send you a PM - but your profile is private and I could't do so.BetweenMidgets wrote: »Your Server does not exists!
I'm analyzing class numbers on PC/NA+EU for both CP-campaigns for over a year now and there is no server where NB is not (by far) the most played class.
Last campaign NB reached a new high with > 30% of all 7 classes and necro a new low with less then 3%.
DKs were over the last 3 month decreasing (surprise for me) from 20% to 13% and during the same time NB was increasing by almost the the difference.
Anecdotally, I would agree with this. But I'm curious as to how you're getting the data to analyze. Seems like something I'd like to get into.
Edit: What have you see the Arcanist numbers in Cyro to be?
So just a mini answer - Arc was starting with 9% (U38) - growing to 10% (U39) and went back to actual 8% (U40).PC EU (noCP AD) Grey/Grau AD
Please raise the population caps.
@ZOS - Convert the heal on "Hardened Ward" into a HoT pls.0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BetweenMidgets wrote: »Your Server does not exists!
I'm analyzing class numbers on PC/NA+EU for both CP-campaigns for over a year now and there is no server where NB is not (by far) the most played class.
Last campaign NB reached a new high with > 30% of all 7 classes and necro a new low with less then 3%.
DKs were over the last 3 month decreasing (surprise for me) from 20% to 13% and during the same time NB was increasing by almost the the difference.
Anecdotally, I would agree with this. But I'm curious as to how you're getting the data to analyze. Seems like something I'd like to get into.
Edit: What have you see the Arcanist numbers in Cyro to be?
I use the addon "Kill Counter". It's basically a CMX addon, but for tracking the stats of PvP kills/deaths/objectives and it keeps track of most encountered class, most killed/killed by class, alliance, etc, etc.
Just checked mine now, for the 2 characters that have the largest sample size (i.e. my most played characters, not that I haven't played other classes, these are just the most played with biggest sample size, therefore most relevant data):
For my Sorc:
Most killed class: NB (1087 kills, 2% higher than 2nd place, DK)
Most killed by class: NB (116 deaths, nearly double 2nd place, sorc)
For my Stamden:
Most killed class: DK (1140 kills, 1.5% higher than 2nd place NB)
Most killed by class: NB 139 deaths (11% higher than 2nd place DK)
Considering that these stats go back to long before U35, we can see a couple of things from the data:1. Arcanist being so low in terms of percentages is due to it not being in the game as long as the other classes (not even 1 full year yet), so everything before Nekrom counts as 0% Arcanist which drags its total percent encountered down by a huge amount.What is obvious however, is that NB is the most commonly played class in PvP currently, ahead of even DK which has been at the top of the PvP tiers for much longer than NB has.
2. NB is still the most commonly played class despite this data including the periods before NB was massively buffed.
Point 1 is pretty straight forward, it needs more data to see where it lands, but early signs indicate that it is a fairly common class in PvP (understandable since it's the newest class).
Point 2 means 1 of 2 things. Either:
1. NB has always been very common, even before it got buffed. Or
2. It is so overwhelmingly common now (much more than the data shows) that it is massively skewing the averages, which would have it sit closer to sorc if it was much closer to the averages shown above.
Exactly how ahead NB is in PvP currently will require data that is only from the past year or 2 (since U35), as the data from before then will include different vastly metas and doesn't account for massive, significant, combat reworks/rebalances that have been made during that time and likely skews the averages, making them seem much closer than they actually are.
TL//DR:
Despite DK being the best PvP class for almost a year longer than NB has been, NB is still the most played class in PvP (as of now) and likely much further ahead of second place DK than what is shown due to the shown data including a long period of time before NB got buffed.2 -
Major_Toughness✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »BetweenMidgets wrote: »Your Server does not exists!
I'm analyzing class numbers on PC/NA+EU for both CP-campaigns for over a year now and there is no server where NB is not (by far) the most played class.
Last campaign NB reached a new high with > 30% of all 7 classes and necro a new low with less then 3%.
DKs were over the last 3 month decreasing (surprise for me) from 20% to 13% and during the same time NB was increasing by almost the the difference.
Anecdotally, I would agree with this. But I'm curious as to how you're getting the data to analyze. Seems like something I'd like to get into.
Edit: What have you see the Arcanist numbers in Cyro to be?
I use the addon "Kill Counter". It's basically a CMX addon, but for tracking the stats of PvP kills/deaths/objectives and it keeps track of most encountered class, most killed/killed by class, alliance, etc, etc.
Just checked mine now, for the 2 characters that have the largest sample size (i.e. my most played characters, not that I haven't played other classes, these are just the most played with biggest sample size, therefore most relevant data):
For my Sorc:
Most killed class: NB (1087 kills, 2% higher than 2nd place, DK)
Most killed by class: NB (116 deaths, nearly double 2nd place, sorc)
For my Stamden:
Most killed class: DK (1140 kills, 1.5% higher than 2nd place NB)
Most killed by class: NB 139 deaths (11% higher than 2nd place DK)
Considering that these stats go back to long before U35, we can see a couple of things from the data:1. Arcanist being so low in terms of percentages is due to it not being in the game as long as the other classes (not even 1 full year yet), so everything before Nekrom counts as 0% Arcanist which drags its total percent encountered down by a huge amount.What is obvious however, is that NB is the most commonly played class in PvP currently, ahead of even DK which has been at the top of the PvP tiers for much longer than NB has.
2. NB is still the most commonly played class despite this data including the periods before NB was massively buffed.
Point 1 is pretty straight forward, it needs more data to see where it lands, but early signs indicate that it is a fairly common class in PvP (understandable since it's the newest class).
Point 2 means 1 of 2 things. Either:
1. NB has always been very common, even before it got buffed. Or
2. It is so overwhelmingly common now (much more than the data shows) that it is massively skewing the averages, which would have it sit closer to sorc if it was much closer to the averages shown above.
Exactly how ahead NB is in PvP currently will require data that is only from the past year or 2 (since U35), as the data from before then will include different vastly metas and doesn't account for massive, significant, combat reworks/rebalances that have been made during that time and likely skews the averages, making them seem much closer than they actually are.
TL//DR:
Despite DK being the best PvP class for almost a year longer than NB has been, NB is still the most played class in PvP (as of now) and likely much further ahead of second place DK than what is shown due to the shown data including a long period of time before NB got buffed.
NB was always popular even when it was the worst class in the game, just because 80% of the player use snipe builds in cyro.
Obviously they run bow proc too so you can't easily just separate those builds apart. But I would be interest to see the killing blows breakdown.PC EU > You4 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Major_Toughness wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »BetweenMidgets wrote: »Your Server does not exists!
I'm analyzing class numbers on PC/NA+EU for both CP-campaigns for over a year now and there is no server where NB is not (by far) the most played class.
Last campaign NB reached a new high with > 30% of all 7 classes and necro a new low with less then 3%.
DKs were over the last 3 month decreasing (surprise for me) from 20% to 13% and during the same time NB was increasing by almost the the difference.
Anecdotally, I would agree with this. But I'm curious as to how you're getting the data to analyze. Seems like something I'd like to get into.
Edit: What have you see the Arcanist numbers in Cyro to be?
I use the addon "Kill Counter". It's basically a CMX addon, but for tracking the stats of PvP kills/deaths/objectives and it keeps track of most encountered class, most killed/killed by class, alliance, etc, etc.
Just checked mine now, for the 2 characters that have the largest sample size (i.e. my most played characters, not that I haven't played other classes, these are just the most played with biggest sample size, therefore most relevant data):
For my Sorc:
Most killed class: NB (1087 kills, 2% higher than 2nd place, DK)
Most killed by class: NB (116 deaths, nearly double 2nd place, sorc)
For my Stamden:
Most killed class: DK (1140 kills, 1.5% higher than 2nd place NB)
Most killed by class: NB 139 deaths (11% higher than 2nd place DK)
Considering that these stats go back to long before U35, we can see a couple of things from the data:1. Arcanist being so low in terms of percentages is due to it not being in the game as long as the other classes (not even 1 full year yet), so everything before Nekrom counts as 0% Arcanist which drags its total percent encountered down by a huge amount.What is obvious however, is that NB is the most commonly played class in PvP currently, ahead of even DK which has been at the top of the PvP tiers for much longer than NB has.
2. NB is still the most commonly played class despite this data including the periods before NB was massively buffed.
Point 1 is pretty straight forward, it needs more data to see where it lands, but early signs indicate that it is a fairly common class in PvP (understandable since it's the newest class).
Point 2 means 1 of 2 things. Either:
1. NB has always been very common, even before it got buffed. Or
2. It is so overwhelmingly common now (much more than the data shows) that it is massively skewing the averages, which would have it sit closer to sorc if it was much closer to the averages shown above.
Exactly how ahead NB is in PvP currently will require data that is only from the past year or 2 (since U35), as the data from before then will include different vastly metas and doesn't account for massive, significant, combat reworks/rebalances that have been made during that time and likely skews the averages, making them seem much closer than they actually are.
TL//DR:
Despite DK being the best PvP class for almost a year longer than NB has been, NB is still the most played class in PvP (as of now) and likely much further ahead of second place DK than what is shown due to the shown data including a long period of time before NB got buffed.
NB was always popular even when it was the worst class in the game, just because 80% of the player use snipe builds in cyro.
Obviously they run bow proc too so you can't easily just separate those builds apart. But I would be interest to see the killing blows breakdown.
Since NB was introduced it's been one of if not the very strongest class in PvP. There has never been a time when NB was weak in PvP. NB would still be one of the strongest classes in PvP even if cloak was removed from the game entirely. That's how complete and diverse the NB toolbox is.6 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »Major_Toughness wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »BetweenMidgets wrote: »Your Server does not exists!
I'm analyzing class numbers on PC/NA+EU for both CP-campaigns for over a year now and there is no server where NB is not (by far) the most played class.
Last campaign NB reached a new high with > 30% of all 7 classes and necro a new low with less then 3%.
DKs were over the last 3 month decreasing (surprise for me) from 20% to 13% and during the same time NB was increasing by almost the the difference.
Anecdotally, I would agree with this. But I'm curious as to how you're getting the data to analyze. Seems like something I'd like to get into.
Edit: What have you see the Arcanist numbers in Cyro to be?
I use the addon "Kill Counter". It's basically a CMX addon, but for tracking the stats of PvP kills/deaths/objectives and it keeps track of most encountered class, most killed/killed by class, alliance, etc, etc.
Just checked mine now, for the 2 characters that have the largest sample size (i.e. my most played characters, not that I haven't played other classes, these are just the most played with biggest sample size, therefore most relevant data):
For my Sorc:
Most killed class: NB (1087 kills, 2% higher than 2nd place, DK)
Most killed by class: NB (116 deaths, nearly double 2nd place, sorc)
For my Stamden:
Most killed class: DK (1140 kills, 1.5% higher than 2nd place NB)
Most killed by class: NB 139 deaths (11% higher than 2nd place DK)
Considering that these stats go back to long before U35, we can see a couple of things from the data:1. Arcanist being so low in terms of percentages is due to it not being in the game as long as the other classes (not even 1 full year yet), so everything before Nekrom counts as 0% Arcanist which drags its total percent encountered down by a huge amount.What is obvious however, is that NB is the most commonly played class in PvP currently, ahead of even DK which has been at the top of the PvP tiers for much longer than NB has.
2. NB is still the most commonly played class despite this data including the periods before NB was massively buffed.
Point 1 is pretty straight forward, it needs more data to see where it lands, but early signs indicate that it is a fairly common class in PvP (understandable since it's the newest class).
Point 2 means 1 of 2 things. Either:
1. NB has always been very common, even before it got buffed. Or
2. It is so overwhelmingly common now (much more than the data shows) that it is massively skewing the averages, which would have it sit closer to sorc if it was much closer to the averages shown above.
Exactly how ahead NB is in PvP currently will require data that is only from the past year or 2 (since U35), as the data from before then will include different vastly metas and doesn't account for massive, significant, combat reworks/rebalances that have been made during that time and likely skews the averages, making them seem much closer than they actually are.
TL//DR:
Despite DK being the best PvP class for almost a year longer than NB has been, NB is still the most played class in PvP (as of now) and likely much further ahead of second place DK than what is shown due to the shown data including a long period of time before NB got buffed.
NB was always popular even when it was the worst class in the game, just because 80% of the player use snipe builds in cyro.
Obviously they run bow proc too so you can't easily just separate those builds apart. But I would be interest to see the killing blows breakdown.
Since NB was introduced it's been one of if not the very strongest class in PvP. There has never been a time when NB was weak in PvP. NB would still be one of the strongest classes in PvP even if cloak was removed from the game entirely. That's how complete and diverse the NB toolbox is.
The combat team lead makes sure NB has the best version of everything. That reason alone is why players should not waste their time with other classes.
Merciless vs Bound Armaments? The skills are basically the same thing, but Merciless charges never drop, BA charges drop after 10 seconds.
Leeching Strikes doesn't heal or sustain as much as critical surge + dark deal, BUT, it does it with one skill slot, no cast time,
fewer GCD'd, and most of the functionality occurs passively while slotted on either bar.
Little things like that make a huge difference.6 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭silentxthreat wrote: »every nightblade stacks crit damage. with rally cry up 6 inpen they still crit for 18k+ with a non ult skill merc bow. they made it very easy to get stacks. either buff inpen, nerf crit damage or nerf nightblade... atm if you only pvp in this game there is zero reason to play if you are not a nightblade. a lot of other games are looking good right now
All this could have been avoided if Stealth skill has STACKING COST like streak. Nightblades spend 90% of their time in stealth and onky appear to attack. Imagine a sorcerer streaking around, avoiding all damage, healing themselves, buffing, then appear out of nowhere to kill you and streak away again.
Some will say, but but..but there are counter to the stealth, useless counters I say. Only viable counters are locked behind a potion or a whole skill with 2 morphs made only to counter stealth. This just prove how broken stealth us to this day.2 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭TechMaybeHic wrote: »NB's now have huge burst damage combined with huge burst heal. It's just bad design IMO. Either the heal or the damage needs a nerf. And there should not be a way to stay cloaked while in combat. If a player initiates a fight, they should have to fight, not hit cloak and keep fighting while invisible.
Would have to be something more than just "in combat." If you are not in combat, what good is cloak when everyone can crouch?
Everyone can crouch, but only nightblades move as fast as fast as sorcs while crouching, and able to fight while crouching/stealth.1 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭universal_wrath wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »NB's now have huge burst damage combined with huge burst heal. It's just bad design IMO. Either the heal or the damage needs a nerf. And there should not be a way to stay cloaked while in combat. If a player initiates a fight, they should have to fight, not hit cloak and keep fighting while invisible.
Would have to be something more than just "in combat." If you are not in combat, what good is cloak when everyone can crouch?
Everyone can crouch, but only nightblades move as fast as fast as sorcs while crouching, and able to fight while crouching/stealth.
It's actually vampires that can move fast in stealth and get into stealth faster --- and ANYONE can be a vampire.....
Nightblades can, if they slot a skill, get 15% movement, and is no different than someone using steed mundus, swift jewelry, adept rider, or ring of the wild hunt... which, if used, allows ANY class with Vampire to be able to move very fast, as vampires don't have a speed penalty in stealth... NB's are only able to reduce the penalty via champion points, or sets.... just like everyone else, .... add if you add some invisibility potions, and you have everything that NB has, and you can do it on any class.
The only real advantage that NB gets is the auto crit out of stealth, which any 2 handed player can also get with stampede out of stealth.
Stealth does have a cost in stamina.. which many NB's use for damage skills, so there is that tradeoff..... depending on build, but that applies to ANY character.
I have a Necromancer Vampire Breton, and she tears things up coming out of stealth... especially as I use Invisibility potions, and am judicial as to when I use stealth.... she as ganked more people than my Nightblade ever considered.
Auldwulfe
Edited by Auldwulfe on March 2, 2024 6:46AM4 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »NB's now have huge burst damage combined with huge burst heal. It's just bad design IMO. Either the heal or the damage needs a nerf. And there should not be a way to stay cloaked while in combat. If a player initiates a fight, they should have to fight, not hit cloak and keep fighting while invisible.
Would have to be something more than just "in combat." If you are not in combat, what good is cloak when everyone can crouch?
Everyone can crouch, but only nightblades move as fast as fast as sorcs while crouching, and able to fight while crouching/stealth.
It's actually vampires that can move fast in stealth and get into stealth faster --- and ANYONE can be a vampire.....
Nightblades can, if they slot a skill, get 15% movement, and is no different than someone using steed mundus, swift jewelry, adept rider, or ring of the wild hunt... which, if used, allows ANY class with Vampire to be able to move very fast, as vampires don't have a speed penalty in stealth... NB's are only able to reduce the penalty via champion points, or sets.... just like everyone else, .... add if you add some invisibility potions, and you have everything that NB has, and you can do it on any class.
The only real advantage that NB gets is the auto crit out of stealth, which any 2 handed player can also get with stampede out of stealth.
Stealth does have a cost in stamina.. which many NB's use for damage skills, so there is that tradeoff..... depending on build, but that applies to ANY character.
I have a Necromancer Vampire Breton, and she tears things up coming out of stealth... especially as I use Invisibility potions, and am judicial as to when I use stealth.... she as ganked more people than my Nightblade ever considered.
Auldwulfe
Correct on the moment speed part but as for the rest NB gets a few advantages being able to stealth on demand that you can't match with a pot or MC
300 damage buff on demand
Any and not just a particular attack gets the auto crit
Not having to lose out on an aspect of your potion
And that's just the ones I can think of off hand.
I have a video somewhere where I gank multiple players in a row without really even thinking about it. You're not doing that with just pots, maybe with stage 4 but now you're at a resource deficiency so NB is still doing better3 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »NB's now have huge burst damage combined with huge burst heal. It's just bad design IMO. Either the heal or the damage needs a nerf. And there should not be a way to stay cloaked while in combat. If a player initiates a fight, they should have to fight, not hit cloak and keep fighting while invisible.
Would have to be something more than just "in combat." If you are not in combat, what good is cloak when everyone can crouch?
Everyone can crouch, but only nightblades move as fast as fast as sorcs while crouching, and able to fight while crouching/stealth.
It's actually vampires that can move fast in stealth and get into stealth faster --- and ANYONE can be a vampire.....
Nightblades can, if they slot a skill, get 15% movement, and is no different than someone using steed mundus, swift jewelry, adept rider, or ring of the wild hunt... which, if used, allows ANY class with Vampire to be able to move very fast, as vampires don't have a speed penalty in stealth... NB's are only able to reduce the penalty via champion points, or sets.... just like everyone else, .... add if you add some invisibility potions, and you have everything that NB has, and you can do it on any class.
The only real advantage that NB gets is the auto crit out of stealth, which any 2 handed player can also get with stampede out of stealth.
Stealth does have a cost in stamina.. which many NB's use for damage skills, so there is that tradeoff..... depending on build, but that applies to ANY character.
I have a Necromancer Vampire Breton, and she tears things up coming out of stealth... especially as I use Invisibility potions, and am judicial as to when I use stealth.... she as ganked more people than my Nightblade ever considered.
Auldwulfe
Correct on the moment speed part but as for the rest NB gets a few advantages being able to stealth on demand that you can't match with a pot or MC
300 damage buff on demand
Any and not just a particular attack gets the auto crit
Not having to lose out on an aspect of your potion
And that's just the ones I can think of off hand.
I have a video somewhere where I gank multiple players in a row without really even thinking about it. You're not doing that with just pots, maybe with stage 4 but now you're at a resource deficiency so NB is still doing better
I really think it also depends on player - doing what I did with the DK, using stealth, stampede, Talons, and then another attack, with chains waiting for them to attempt to run, so I could pull them back into AOE ..... And yeah, I was ganking some of the heavy warden tanks... and DK has one of the BEST burst heals in the game, so I was able to just hold them... the corrosive armor was more to restore my resources, and adding insult to injury.........
Thing is, with a nightblade, if you can't get domination in the fight in the first few moments.... you HAVE to flee.... if you are built to get the damage, you are a serious glass cannon --- half of the ones I see are running 15k or less resist, and under 30k health ..... so if you run into a player that doesn't panic, and knows what he is doing, you cannot take him down in the way that the DK can just power through.
And again, yes, the NB gets a weapon buff from stealth, but so does the Vampire - and the loss of health regen really doesn't matter at all - especially with it already being halved on everyone in Cyrodiil, and being able to wear the Ring of the Pale Order (which works off of AOE, too), and undeath --- and NO, I am not calling for nerfs on any class... that's the road that resulted in the necromancer being a nearly dead class (yes, a pun, not intended) I am advocating for buffs to help the rest - make the Mage Guild skill Mage Light have an 18 meter radius, where you cannot re-stealth once in it, and for 2 seconds once out of it. And give it a solid 8 to 10 seconds uptime... with maybe the person using the skill still able to see you as an outline, until the skill runs out, even if you recloak.
And I would make the Hunter skills have 15 meter radius, where you cannot re-stealth, the same 8 to 10 second uptime, the same 2 to 3 seconds effect AFTER leaving the radius, and offer some crit resistance to reflect the Fighter's Guild Vampire Hunters.....
Those would let the NB keep their niche, provide a counter, and make it a choice to commit, or not..... yeah, it does force the stealth bow style of play... but it allows for some survival on the sudden gank end......
Auldwulfe
Edited by Auldwulfe on March 2, 2024 3:13PM2 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nightblades are everywhere easily the most popular pvp class. On the leaderboards if you want to be in the top 100 you have more AP than any other class and sometimes it’s by a lot.PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables3 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like NB in non-battlegrounds PvP because I don't run with a group, so cloak is an easy tool with which to disengage and not repeatedly get stomped by Veteran players or groups regardless of gearing.
I've tried other classes and if you don't join a group or use the standard meta builds you just get wrecked.0 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »I like NB in non-battlegrounds PvP because I don't run with a group, so cloak is an easy tool with which to disengage and not repeatedly get stomped by Veteran players or groups regardless of gearing.
I've tried other classes and if you don't join a group or use the standard meta builds you just get wrecked.
And that's the point -- NB's can only prey on weak, or alone targets.....
They are a response to the tank meta, and, honestly, one of the few that works outside of "if you can't beat the tank meta, then join it" method of high resist high health marshmallow fights.
And yet, most NB's will tell you that they avoid high health targets like the plague....
I'm a magica sorc main, with a bit of leaning in on Warden (ice mages), DK (fire mage builds), and necros (I wish they actually worked better)
I only added the NB to my play as part of MYM, using it to stealth complete the dailies for tickets.... and only because, I can do it faster that way, usually less than a quarter of the time spent ... which lets me get back to either doing productive things with my time, or go off and play other games.....
Auldwulfe1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭During PvP event, aside from some players I recognize & remember that "they are good", I have not noticed NBs to be a serious threat. Most of the time they die like flies. "Kill Enemy Nightblades" in fact is the fastest do in Bounty Missions board, just saying.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on March 2, 2024 8:45PM4 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »I like NB in non-battlegrounds PvP because I don't run with a group, so cloak is an easy tool with which to disengage and not repeatedly get stomped by Veteran players or groups regardless of gearing.
I've tried other classes and if you don't join a group or use the standard meta builds you just get wrecked.
And that's the point -- NB's can only prey on weak, or alone targets.....
They are a response to the tank meta, and, honestly, one of the few that works outside of "if you can't beat the tank meta, then join it" method of high resist high health marshmallow fights.
And yet, most NB's will tell you that they avoid high health targets like the plague....
I'm a magica sorc main, with a bit of leaning in on Warden (ice mages), DK (fire mage builds), and necros (I wish they actually worked better)
I only added the NB to my play as part of MYM, using it to stealth complete the dailies for tickets.... and only because, I can do it faster that way, usually less than a quarter of the time spent ... which lets me get back to either doing productive things with my time, or go off and play other games.....
Auldwulfe
I get wrecked just as much if not more by grouped players or well geared players in PvP.... Preying on weak or alone targets is not NB exclusive.
If you can't use stealth or don't have the funds for invis pots, other players will gapclose you in perpetuity allowing tanks (marshmallows?) to attrition anyone that they have eyes on. You can't escape good players once spotted.
NB is the only class that can GTFO more reliably by preventing targeting and misdirection while Cloaked to let a player escape. Otherwise you'll just be tracked with Tab-targeting through walls preventing any kind of LoS break stealth gameplay.
Except when the marshmallows pops detect pots with 20m range (something massive) and then gapcloses you in perpetuity.
Which is probably why Nightblades that use Cloak in order to avoid players and whom don't build for dueling avoid high health target: They're typically people invested in PvP and have the funds to buy invis pots. You have to play like Cloak doesn't exist against them, so if you're not built for fighting without Cloak you have one less defensive tool.
It is possible to burst a marshmallow down (around 35K to 40K hp), using Proc sets with Onslaught and Merciless, but it's Crit gambling (and Sea-Serpent/Radiant Magelight gambling), and gank reliant for the Onslaught Stun from Stealth as otherwise they can usually heal up/Block. Either way you're left with little offense if you fail or succeed.0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »During PvP event, aside from some players I recognize & remember that "they are good", I have not noticed NBs to be a serious threat. Most of the time they die like flies. "Kill Enemy Nightblades" in fact is the fastest do in Bounty Missions board, just saying.
Quite possibly due to potatoes jumping on the Ferrari of PVP classes because they want to go fast while not knowing how to drive.6 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
I really think it also depends on player - doing what I did with the DK, using stealth, stampede, Talons, and then another attack, with chains waiting for them to attempt to run, so I could pull them back into AOE ..... And yeah, I was ganking some of the heavy warden tanks... and DK has one of the BEST burst heals in the game, so I was able to just hold them... the corrosive armor was more to restore my resources, and adding insult to injury........
I mean yeah that works but you're gong to have a hard time repeating it in short succession where a nb might do the same or more damage with a shorter cooldown especially if you need an ultimate to pull it off. A nb will have an incap and bow up in basically very short time. They can actually just keep hitting you with bows while building to the ult so it might not be corrosive level damage but the ease to have it ready again more than makes up for that.
Thing is, with a nightblade, if you can't get domination in the fight in the first few moments.... you HAVE to flee.... if you are built to get the damage, you are a serious glass cannon --- half of the ones I see are running 15k or less resist, and under 30k health ..... so if you run into a player that doesn't panic, and knows what he is doing, you cannot take him down in the way that the DK can just power through
NB doesn't have to be glass cannon though to have high damage. Yes a gank build 2 tapper will be glass but even your standard build that can take a hit is capable of massive combo damage with big heals. The heals alone will keep them in the fight but add cloak or shade and it almost doesn't matter how good the player on the other end is because they won't be able to kill you and you can keep engaging and hitting your combo at will. A DK or Warden or even templar can definitely have crazy heals. A good nb that understands how to time out the bow and the incap and buffs from cloak will at the very least keep you on the back bar and maybe keep up the combo until you just happen to slip up.
I do think nb needs to be nerfed rather than the detect tools buffed. Decent nbs can heal up even when brought out of cloak and just move fast enough to get out of range while healing, I've seen it happen several times. Using detect tools just eats your resources only to have them just move away, heal, or both, then either get away or reengage. Keep the stealth tools as is and just make the price for getting busted be a little higher. NB needs to have to choose between rambo and stealth playstyle, not have both in one build.5 -
lostineternity✭✭✭silentxthreat wrote: »every nightblade stacks crit damage. with rally cry up 6 inpen they still crit for 18k+ with a non ult skill merc bow. they made it very easy to get stacks. either buff inpen, nerf crit damage or nerf nightblade... atm if you only pvp in this game there is zero reason to play if you are not a nightblade. a lot of other games are looking good right now
These nbs are glass cannons. I saw so many times after opener how they die in a second. You can't kill dk or 40k hp warden and even cloak does nothing because it's so easy to counter. I can only suggest for you not to play pvp with 20k ph and 10k resistances try sometimes to block or roll dodge big incoming damage and you will definitely notice difference in survivability.
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