nightblades out of control in pvp

Avran_Sylt · March 9

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Oh no the consequences of everyone in PvP wanting to 1vX brawl and escew any kind of assassin gameplay through multitudes of defensive layers and detection because "I need to be a god and can't die only kill" rears its head as one of the more popular overall (I assume combined PvE PvP) classes has growing pains as the class gets retrofitted to be able to do any role within the constraints of its class abilities flavored with an orientation on blood, stealth, being behind the target and spiky damage.

Building tanky has always been the move for many 1vX players for years. It's fine though if there are clear drawbacks to building tanky. For example, DKs and Wardens can be super tanky, but they lack any form of escape and will have to rely heavily on LoS. Sorc and NB on the other hand, are not as tanky but they have the freedom to leave the fight and make their opponents fight on their terms.

Tankiness = less evasiveness, and evasiveness = less tankiness. Having both = overperforming, which is the case of current NB and U41 Sorc. If NB and Sorc get better healing, then they must receive a nerf to their evasiveness, which are Cloak and Streak/BoL.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

However access to stat-stick buffs does not cause a class to lose its identity.

But it does because the best build for general purposes will now be a tanky brawler with damage and stealth instead of a squishy brawler with damage and stealth. That's where your class loses its identity. You aren't a squishy and stealthy assassin anymore. You're a full armor knight that can somehow move around the battlefield at maximum speed and turn invisible at will, and still have damage to delete people. It's absurd to think about from a game balance perspective.

What drawbacks?

@Auldwulfe 's mention about tanks utilizing flat damage proc sets to facilitate DPS on tanks is quite relevant.

You mention that "having both" is overperforming, and tanks being lethal seems to fit that statement.

Tankiness and evasiveness are two sides of the same coin: Survivability.

To that I agree, that if a class can be evasive it should be weak once found. However, with Detect pots and similar skills it's like saying: When I press this button you can no longer block for 4 seconds, and you can't break free, and if I hit you with an AoE direct damage skill you weren't blocking.

That is if you're saying that Cloak is in a similar playing field as block. (Which it isn't).

Buffing detect tools aint the way.

I haven't built a brawler, more a glass cannon myself, but I can agree that the notion of a readily available burst heal through the Offering skill doesn't fit while also being able to deal massive damage.

But to that I ask: Is it a problem with NB, or a general problem with Healing, and how Healing is tied to weapon/Spell damage in general? (Having both)

Bushido2513 · March 9

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

But to that I ask: Is it a problem with NB, or a general problem with Healing, and how Healing is tied to weapon/Spell damage in general? (Having both)

Both, NB shouldn't have a heal and cloak and shade and other evasive skills in one package at the same time. Healing is also an issue and not just the ones that scale with weapon and spell damage, warden and arcanist say hello.

AndreNoir · March 9

Bushido2513 wrote: »

NB shouldn't have a heal and cloak and shade and other evasive skills in one package at the same time

Why not ? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Bushido2513 · March 9

AndreNoir wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

NB shouldn't have a heal and cloak and shade and other evasive skills in one package at the same time

Why not ? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Sorry you're perfectly correct as I said that wrong due to assuming we all know how much damage NB innately has.

So to be specific NB shouldn't have those things and hard hitting damage. It's not completely game breaking but it certainly stands out when you've been attacked with a high damage hit from stealth by one or more opponents and you go to use counters/ go offensive only to see they are more than capable of counter healing your damage repeatedly while your counter ticks away.

I still kill my fair share of NBs thanks to really understanding my build and my class but if nothing else it becomes a more tedious fight than with other classes because a lot of your efforts to kill the enemy can easily be countered and the fight reset.

Classic example being that if a NB engages you but you have good damage, they can just path into an offering into a cloak and reset the fight and just come at you again with a hard hit out of stealth or wait for you to become engaged. Other classes would have to see the engagement through and rely on either having better damage or better survivability. NB has both and a built in escape button that requires special counters to address.

There are other classes and builds that aren't fun to deal with, I admit that. The NB is just hitting a trifecta with too much ease though.

AndreNoir · March 9

Bushido2513 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

NB shouldn't have a heal and cloak and shade and other evasive skills in one package at the same time

Why not ? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

<A lot of pointless text>

Bushido2513 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

NB shouldn't have a heal and cloak and shade and other evasive skills in one package at the same time

Why not ? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

The NB is just hitting a trifecta with too much ease though.

The problem here is... that is the lie. NB just doesn't has "other evasive skills" and never had it, furthermore all NBs in PVP HAVE to use cloak because another morph was nerfed to oblivion and there no else defensive options that can compete with other classes.
On top of everything else: no real AoE, no reliable (even somewhat usable) hard CC and root is a mockery, no DoT damage, everything can be dodged/blocked.
Just be honest and agree: melee (= former stamina) and snipe gimmick are only real options right now, and recent changes did almost nothing to them. And if "exceptional evasive tools and damage" are so exceptional so where is all that siphoning/ranged mNB ?

splitsand · March 9

@AndreNoir

"The problem here is... that is the lie. NB just doesn't has "other evasive skills" and never had it,
On top of everything else: no real AoE, no reliable (even somewhat usable) hard CC and root is a mockery, no DoT damage, everything can be dodged/blocked.
Just be honest and agree: melee (= former stamina) and snipe gimmick are only real options right now, and recent changes did almost nothing to them. And if "exceptional evasive tools and damage" are so exceptional so where is all that siphoning/ranged mNB ? "

My response:

Evasive skills in nb toolkit: Cloak, Shade, Path (major exp), Concealed (absolutely broken spammable that also give minor exp), Blur/Mirage/Phantasmal (this morph literally gives you free dodges, major evasion, AND SNARE IMMUNITY). All of these skills would be welcome on literally any other class.

No real AoE: My sweet brother in Christ, you have one of the best AoE ults in the game in soul tether that even adds synergy damage, and one of the most overloaded skills in the game named

Power Extraction:

Siphon the vigor from your enemies' blood, dealing 3175 Disease Damage to all nearby enemies. If an enemy is hit you gain Major Brutality and Sorcery, and Minor Courage increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20% and 215 for 30 seconds. Enemies hit have Minor Cowardice applied to them for 10 seconds, reducing their Weapon and Spell Damage by 215.

Ranged NB's (excluding snipe and pulse gankers)?: Why would you play a ranged nb, which is still a very solid spec when the current form of melee nb exists? Ranged NB still does a very high amount of damage and pressure, but players aren't going to play a spec that requires an ounce of brain power when the current other forms of NB exist.

Nightblade is broken in PvP and there is absolutely zero argument against it. Every single top PvP'er will tell you this. Enjoy playing this broken spec until ZoS eventually is forced to nerf it.

SandandStars · March 10

whats worse, nb getting a ridiculous string of buffs that make pvp suck, or the ppl who persist in denying its significant advantages?

guess it doesnt matter. the game is no longer fun to play

StaticWave · March 10

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

What drawbacks?

@Auldwulfe 's mention about tanks utilizing flat damage proc sets to facilitate DPS on tanks is quite relevant.

You mention that "having both" is overperforming, and tanks being lethal seems to fit that statement.

Tanks using proc sets to facilitate DPS is a problem on its own, but it's not relevant to my point. I think I mentioned the drawbacks pretty clearly through class examples:

StaticWave wrote: »

It's fine though if there are clear drawbacks to building tanky. For example, DKs and Wardens can be super tanky, but they lack any form of escape and will have to rely heavily on LoS.

This is still true to this day as DK and Wardens, if not slotting Mist Form, will have to rely heavily on LoS because they can't disengage from the fight at will.

I've also mentioned that Sorc and NB's biggest advantage is their evasiveness and their ability to enter or leave a fight on their terms:

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc and NB on the other hand, are not as tanky but they have the freedom to leave the fight and make their opponents fight on their terms.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Tankiness and evasiveness are two sides of the same coin: Survivability.

To that I agree, that if a class can be evasive it should be weak once found.

I agree. We cannot have both tankiness and evasiveness on 1 side of the coin. It's either tankiness or evasiveness. NB and U41 Sorc are prime examples of a class that has evasiveness and tankiness. It's not healthy for the game.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

However, with Detect pots and similar skills it's like saying: When I press this button you can no longer block for 4 seconds, and you can't break free, and if I hit you with an AoE direct damage skill you weren't blocking.

That is if you're saying that Cloak is in a similar playing field as block. (Which it isn't).

Buffing detect tools aint the way.

I also agree too. It's gotten to the point that even if I bring them out of stealth, they are still too tanky to be put down before my detect potion expires. Even if I slot Structured Entropy, there still lies the problem of them being too tanky.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

But to that I ask: Is it a problem with NB, or a general problem with Healing, and how Healing is tied to weapon/Spell damage in general? (Having both)

It's not healing, but healing + too much mitigation that is the problem. NB just happens to be the scapegoat because it's currently the only class that has access to both evasiveness and a strong burst heal, on top of being tanky. Next patch, Sorc will be another scapegoat too.

Undeath, 40k HP, easy access to damage sets and sources of mitigation allow players to build super tanky and still have damage to kill an average player. For example, I can run something like this on my Sorc:

Even on a Sorc (which has bad healing compared to other classes), I'm extremely tanky because I have over 3k crit resist, 30k resistances and Major Protection on back bar, Major Cowardice and Maim from Kynmarcher, and Undeath. I still have damage because SSC carries me and Major Vul from Kynmarcher is also a strong dmg amplifier. This build won't 1 shot good players, but it will appear nigh unkillable to an average player in Cyrodiil, and that's on a class with bad healing. Imagine slotting this on NB/Warden/any class with strong heals lol. You'd be super hard to kill while still having damage.

StaticWave · March 10

AndreNoir wrote: »

NB just doesn't has "other evasive skills" and never had it

Shadow Image:

Refreshing Path:

Concealed Weapon:

Cloak:

AndreNoir wrote: »

there no else defensive options that can compete with other classes.

Refreshing Path:

Healthy Offering:

Powered Extraction:

Cloak:

Phantasmal Escape:

Mass Hysteria:

Merciless Resolve:

AndreNoir wrote: »

On top of everything else: no real AoE

Powered Extraction:

Soul Tether:

AndreNoir wrote: »

no reliable (even somewhat usable) hard CC and root is a mockery,

Mass Hysteria:

Crippling Grasp:

AndreNoir wrote: »

no DoT damage

Crippling Grasp:

Soul Tether:

AndreNoir wrote: »

everything can be dodged/blocked.

Mass Hysteria is undodgable/unblockable. Powered Extraction is undodgable. Soul Tether is undodgable.

AndreNoir wrote: »

And if "exceptional evasive tools and damage" are so exceptional so where is all that siphoning/ranged mNB ?

They are using Asylum Destro staff from max range. Have you ever been ganked by one? I have, and it's giga aids. They can do 10k dmg with every Force Pulse cast and Cloak immediately after every cast. Worse yet, they still have 30k HP, decent armor, and Healthy Offering to spam when I reveal them from stealth lol.

universal_wrath · March 10

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Oh no the consequences of everyone in PvP wanting to 1vX brawl and escew any kind of assassin gameplay through multitudes of defensive layers and detection because "I need to be a god and can't die only kill" rears its head as one of the more popular overall (I assume combined PvE PvP) classes has growing pains as the class gets retrofitted to be able to do any role within the constraints of its class abilities flavored with an orientation on blood, stealth, being behind the target and spiky damage.

Building tanky has always been the move for many 1vX players for years. It's fine though if there are clear drawbacks to building tanky. For example, DKs and Wardens can be super tanky, but they lack any form of escape and will have to rely heavily on LoS. Sorc and NB on the other hand, are not as tanky but they have the freedom to leave the fight and make their opponents fight on their terms.

Tankiness = less evasiveness, and evasiveness = less tankiness. Having both = overperforming, which is the case of current NB and U41 Sorc. If NB and Sorc get better healing, then they must receive a nerf to their evasiveness, which are Cloak and Streak/BoL.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

However access to stat-stick buffs does not cause a class to lose its identity.

But it does because the best build for general purposes will now be a tanky brawler with damage and stealth instead of a squishy brawler with damage and stealth. That's where your class loses its identity. You aren't a squishy and stealthy assassin anymore. You're a full armor knight that can somehow move around the battlefield at maximum speed and turn invisible at will, and still have damage to delete people. It's absurd to think about from a game balance perspective.

What drawbacks?

@Auldwulfe 's mention about tanks utilizing flat damage proc sets to facilitate DPS on tanks is quite relevant.

You mention that "having both" is overperforming, and tanks being lethal seems to fit that statement.

Tankiness and evasiveness are two sides of the same coin: Survivability.

To that I agree, that if a class can be evasive it should be weak once found. However, with Detect pots and similar skills it's like saying: When I press this button you can no longer block for 4 seconds, and you can't break free, and if I hit you with an AoE direct damage skill you weren't blocking.

That is if you're saying that Cloak is in a similar playing field as block. (Which it isn't).

Buffing detect tools aint the way.

I haven't built a brawler, more a glass cannon myself, but I can agree that the notion of a readily available burst heal through the Offering skill doesn't fit while also being able to deal massive damage.

But to that I ask: Is it a problem with NB, or a general problem with Healing, and how Healing is tied to weapon/Spell damage in general? (Having both)

It is like playing pet or no pet as sorcerer. In PvE, to get highest DPS, you have to use pets, because of your passives and how pets work, you can still no pet builds but they perform less. In PvP I would assume because your pets die a lot that it become liability, you better off using no pet builds.

Nightblade is similar in how in PvP to get the best out of it is to use stealth style, you can still play brawler and use other more of claok(healing/tank) morph, but you loss a lot from your passives to support you playstyle. In PvE dungeons/trials, still is useless so the passives of nightblade do not work hence it losses some dps.

Why choose a build that uses 70% of your class power, when there is a build that uses 100% and even more if you use outside skill line vampire?

ZDunlain · March 10

StaticWave wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

NB just doesn't has "other evasive skills" and never had it

Shadow Image:

Refreshing Path:

Concealed Weapon:

Cloak:

AndreNoir wrote: »

there no else defensive options that can compete with other classes.

Refreshing Path:

Healthy Offering:

Powered Extraction:

Cloak:

Phantasmal Escape:

Mass Hysteria:

Merciless Resolve:

AndreNoir wrote: »

On top of everything else: no real AoE

Powered Extraction:

Soul Tether:

AndreNoir wrote: »

no reliable (even somewhat usable) hard CC and root is a mockery,

Mass Hysteria:

Crippling Grasp:

AndreNoir wrote: »

no DoT damage

Crippling Grasp:

Soul Tether:

AndreNoir wrote: »

everything can be dodged/blocked.

Mass Hysteria is undodgable/unblockable. Powered Extraction is undodgable. Soul Tether is undodgable.

AndreNoir wrote: »

And if "exceptional evasive tools and damage" are so exceptional so where is all that siphoning/ranged mNB ?

They are using Asylum Destro staff from max range. Have you ever been ganked by one? I have, and it's giga aids. They can do 10k dmg with every Force Pulse cast and Cloak immediately after every cast. Worse yet, they still have 30k HP, decent armor, and Healthy Offering to spam when I reveal them from stealth lol.

Stop bro, you killed him hahahahahahahaha

pokrakus · March 10

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I'm not sure it's worth analyzing either way. The game will throw whatever spell crafting system they are doing to just muddy the waters and add to a much lower Cyrodiil population, and it's just going to let the game see PvE as it's last bastion to focus on

So PvE as it's last bastion to focus on = no focus at all.

StaticWave · March 10

ZDunlain wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

NB just doesn't has "other evasive skills" and never had it

Shadow Image:

Refreshing Path:

Concealed Weapon:

Cloak:

AndreNoir wrote: »

there no else defensive options that can compete with other classes.

Refreshing Path:

Healthy Offering:

Powered Extraction:

Cloak:

Phantasmal Escape:

Mass Hysteria:

Merciless Resolve:

AndreNoir wrote: »

On top of everything else: no real AoE

Powered Extraction:

Soul Tether:

AndreNoir wrote: »

no reliable (even somewhat usable) hard CC and root is a mockery,

Mass Hysteria:

Crippling Grasp:

AndreNoir wrote: »

no DoT damage

Crippling Grasp:

Soul Tether:

AndreNoir wrote: »

everything can be dodged/blocked.

Mass Hysteria is undodgable/unblockable. Powered Extraction is undodgable. Soul Tether is undodgable.

AndreNoir wrote: »

And if "exceptional evasive tools and damage" are so exceptional so where is all that siphoning/ranged mNB ?

They are using Asylum Destro staff from max range. Have you ever been ganked by one? I have, and it's giga aids. They can do 10k dmg with every Force Pulse cast and Cloak immediately after every cast. Worse yet, they still have 30k HP, decent armor, and Healthy Offering to spam when I reveal them from stealth lol.

Stop bro, you killed him hahahahahahahaha

Lol I had to show him.

I think Concealed and Merciless Resolve take the spotlight too much that people forget about Powered Extraction, which is just as overloaded. It has the same tooltip as Steel Tornado, only 1m less range and negligibly more expensive cost, but it gives Major Brutality/Sorcery, Minor Courage, and reduces everyone's WD/SD by 215 lol. Killer's Blade is on the same boat too. It functions identically to 2h's Executioner, but also heals you for 5k under Battle Spirit, and also restores 1k stam and mag lol.

ZOS basically reskinned 2 of the most used DW and 2h abilities, made them better, and slapped them on NB. You'd have to choose between slotting DW or 2H if you wanted to use either Steel Tornado or Executioner. NB just slots DW to get the highest stats, and still has access to both an AoE spammable and a single target execute lol.

-

Bashev · March 11

So now NBs have a better version of Equilibrium without the drawback?

Avran_Sylt · March 11

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

But to that I ask: Is it a problem with NB, or a general problem with Healing, and how Healing is tied to weapon/Spell damage in general? (Having both)

Both, NB shouldn't have a heal and cloak and shade and other evasive skills in one package at the same time. Healing is also an issue and not just the ones that scale with weapon and spell damage, warden and arcanist say hello.

I agree that they shouldn't have them at the same time. And using cloak to disengage allows the use of Offering when disengaged.

I agree, much like a tank with high resistances and a heal who can restore half their HP a second, a nightbalde that utilizes evasiveness to mitigate damage shouldn't have a readily available heal that heals half their hp.

I'm not against opportunity cost.

StaticWave wrote: »

Tanks using proc sets to facilitate DPS is a problem on its own, but it's not relevant to my point. I think I mentioned the drawbacks pretty clearly through class examples:

StaticWave wrote: »

It's fine though if there are clear drawbacks to building tanky. For example, DKs and Wardens can be super tanky, but they lack any form of escape and will have to rely heavily on LoS.

This is still true to this day as DK and Wardens, if not slotting Mist Form, will have to rely heavily on LoS because they can't disengage from the fight at will.

I've also mentioned that Sorc and NB's biggest advantage is their evasiveness and their ability to enter or leave a fight on their terms:

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc and NB on the other hand, are not as tanky but they have the freedom to leave the fight and make their opponents fight on their terms.

It's relevant to PvP, where the point is to kill other players and also being rewarded for taking objectives:

If the enemy has to come to you, you don't need evasion if you're tanky and can also kill them.

And guess what, any tank can slot Mist form just like you said. So for the cost of one skill slot they get evasion ontop of being tanky and dealing damage.

What skill can other classes slot to mitigate all damage to 3% of their max health for a duration while also letting them pen all resistances? (Maybe another 2H ult rework)

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Tankiness and evasiveness are two sides of the same coin: Survivability.

To that I agree, that if a class can be evasive it should be weak once found.

I agree. We cannot have both tankiness and evasiveness on 1 side of the coin. It's either tankiness or evasiveness. NB and U41 Sorc are prime examples of a class that has evasiveness and tankiness. It's not healthy for the game.

Specializing into one is usually the more user friendly route, but hybridization should be possible. I don't engage too much into dueling so I'm not sure if the current hybridization is too far off each others specialization.

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

However, with Detect pots and similar skills it's like saying: When I press this button you can no longer block for 4 seconds, and you can't break free, and if I hit you with an AoE direct damage skill you weren't blocking.

That is if you're saying that Cloak is in a similar playing field as block. (Which it isn't).

Buffing detect tools aint the way.

I also agree too. It's gotten to the point that even if I bring them out of stealth, they are still too tanky to be put down before my detect potion expires. Even if I slot Structured Entropy, there still lies the problem of them being too tanky.

Detect pots need to be removed. It's bad design. If evasion is on the same coin as survivability, it's like a pot that shreds all shields on nearby opponents when used and prevents shields from being cast for a duration. That's why people build tanky even with cloak, and why balancing is shifting towards allowing being tanky with cloak.

Structured entropy is also a bad take as it counters LoS with the DoT tick showing through terrain, so even if the player used cloak and also evasion successfully with LoS, their position is still pinged. (But this is a general issue with UI DoT ticks)

Cloak and crouch are problems, because deisgn-wise they should let players get into advantageous positions before combat, but be less useful during.

Yet most players want simple countermeasures against both instances: Not allowing themselves to be in a vulnerable position, and wanting players using those strategies to then be in a disadvantageous position after using such a simple countermeasure.

It would be nice if there was differing functionality between being used in combat (with a difference between used while in line of sight of an enemy and while outside the line of sight), as well as differing functionality when used outside of combat. Such that Cloak and Crouch become more dependent on evasion,but the persistent in-combat statuses I've noticed in IC/Cyrodiil leads me to believe that kinda of minutia is not a priority of the devs to consider. (Did you know that you are alerted if you're spotted in stealth (if that stealth is from crouch), you are not alerted if you are spotted while invisible?)

Failing that it would be nice if Cloak was a persistent toggle that drains a resource but suffers a cooldown once broken out of.

StaticWave wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

But to that I ask: Is it a problem with NB, or a general problem with Healing, and how Healing is tied to weapon/Spell damage in general? (Having both)

It's not healing, but healing + too much mitigation that is the problem. NB just happens to be the scapegoat because it's currently the only class that has access to both evasiveness and a strong burst heal, on top of being tanky. Next patch, Sorc will be another scapegoat too.

Undeath, 40k HP, easy access to damage sets and sources of mitigation allow players to build super tanky and still have damage to kill an average player. For example, I can run something like this on my Sorc:

Even on a Sorc (which has bad healing compared to other classes), I'm extremely tanky because I have over 3k crit resist, 30k resistances and Major Protection on back bar, Major Cowardice and Maim from Kynmarcher, and Undeath. I still have damage because SSC carries me and Major Vul from Kynmarcher is also a strong dmg amplifier. This build won't 1 shot good players, but it will appear nigh unkillable to an average player in Cyrodiil, and that's on a class with bad healing. Imagine slotting this on NB/Warden/any class with strong heals lol. You'd be super hard to kill while still having damage.

Yeah, the tank meta has never left. Halved damage means hp is twice as effective, and anything that interacts with HP is twice as effective. Damage resistance is twice as effective. And while halved healing balances with the halved damage, it's amplified by Damage resistance. Not to mention that crit healing is not impacted in any capacity while crit damage has to content with default crit resistance and crit resistance sources.