Galeriano wrote: »

You are kinda mixing the timelines. When corrosive recived a nerf to only affect direct damage it was after first reciving a massive buff. Initially it was increasing only physical penetration so including DoTs ascaling from it, then ZOS expanded it into all dmg which was a bit too much so they removed DoT part because DoT meta was also running rampant during that time. At the end of the day it was still a buff, yet back than DK with corrosive was not that complained about as it is right now. This came later with changes like hybridisation, adding new items to the game and basically forcing PvP scene to run as vampires.

You're the one mixing up timelines, the nerf to corrosive making it affect only direct damage was done before full hybridization back when it only affected physical damage as it was already too strong back then.
Pics related, courtesy of the wayback machine: What pushed corrosive to OP territory was like a lot of other overperforming things: hybridization, more specifically making it affect molten whip, something as strong as full penetration was given to stamdks precisely because they had no burst abilities beyond leap, corrosive was not meant to interact with a burst ability as strong as molten whip.
Vampirism has nothing to do with it like others said, you get killed by dks even faster without it. Corrosive needs to go back to affecting physical damage only, and corrosive is not the only overtuned thing on dks just the tip of the iceberg.

Remiem wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You are kinda mixing the timelines. When corrosive recived a nerf to only affect direct damage it was after first reciving a massive buff. Initially it was increasing only physical penetration so including DoTs ascaling from it, then ZOS expanded it into all dmg which was a bit too much so they removed DoT part because DoT meta was also running rampant during that time. At the end of the day it was still a buff, yet back than DK with corrosive was not that complained about as it is right now. This came later with changes like hybridisation, adding new items to the game and basically forcing PvP scene to run as vampires.

You're the one mixing up timelines, the nerf to corrosive making it affect only direct damage was done before full hybridization back when it only affected physical damage as it was already too strong back then.
Pics related, courtesy of the wayback machine:

Corrosive in 2018: all physical damage, both dot and direct, physical only.

Corrosive in 2021: direct damage only, already lost the dot part because it was too strong, still physical only. That change happened earlier than 2021 but can't find something between 2018 and 2021.

Corrosive in 2022: direct damage only, fully hybridized affects physical and magic damage.

What pushed corrosive to OP territory was like a lot of other overperforming things: hybridization, more specifically making it affect molten whip, something as strong as full penetration was given to stamdks precisely because they had no burst abilities beyond leap, corrosive was not meant to interact with a burst ability as strong as molten whip.
Vampirism has nothing to do with it like others said, you get killed by dks even faster without it. Corrosive needs to go back to affecting physical damage only, and corrosive is not the only overtuned thing on dks just the tip of the iceberg.

Both are true. Corrosive wasn't so OP when Dizzy Swing was the strongest single target direct damage available to sDK, and Whip wasn't so OP before every single player in PvP became a Vampire.

The former point probably will not and should not be reversed, undoing hybridization at this point sounds like it would do more harm than good to player satisfaction. The latter point has had a million solutions postulated and we can postulate a million more. Like what about changing back to the old Primsatic Damage glyphs, does anybody use the new ones?

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

Vampirism has nothing to do with it like others said, you get killed by dks even faster without it.

To clarify on this point, yes Mortals take even more Flame Damage than Vampires below 2/3 health or something. But if you are a Vampire - and burst skills' co-efficients are balanced against each other for PvE purposes - than Flame Damage skills do 13% more damage to you than non-Flame.

Which is why I've said if nothing else just remove the Flame Damage taken penalty from Vampirism, it alone causes some degree of imbalance. (Granted removing it could move more PvE Support to Vampirism, not sure what the problem with that would be though).

ah yes, let's take away the take and just ask for give.

It's takes like this that make me thankful they don't listen to the community sometimes.

Galeriano wrote: »

You are kinda mixing the timelines. When corrosive recived a nerf to only affect direct damage it was after first reciving a massive buff. Initially it was increasing only physical penetration so including DoTs ascaling from it, then ZOS expanded it into all dmg which was a bit too much so they removed DoT part because DoT meta was also running rampant during that time. At the end of the day it was still a buff, yet back than DK with corrosive was not that complained about as it is right now. This came later with changes like hybridisation, adding new items to the game and basically forcing PvP scene to run as vampires.

I definitely did not mix the timelines. @Remiem gave a pretty good response demonstrating Corrosive's changes over the years.

DKs with Corrosive did in fact get complained about, otherwise ZoS would've allowed DoTs to benefit from full penetration. I remember very well for almost a year that every single stamDK was running Corrosive Armor in SnB/2H or DW/2H.

Galeriano wrote: »

Corrosive was a core of stam DK identity same as take flight. One was used to nuke more squishy targets other to brawl in some 1vX under the pressure or to melt a bit some toyugher opponents. And bgoth ultimates had times when they were replaced by othewr options like s&b ulti or DBoS but it doesn't change a fact they were always a option worth considering.

Core identity of a brawler DK, I would agree with. However, I do not think Corrosive was replaced. SnB/2H DKs would slot Corrosive on SnB bar and Take Flight on 2H bar and benefit from both. Some DKs would slot DBoS instead of Take Flight, but none would drop Corrosive for either ultimate.

Galeriano wrote: »

You really don;t need to touch corrosive to make DK less effective. Just removing or reworking undeath passive the way people woulnd't be sitting at stage 3 of vampirism would already make DK noticably weaker and it would also make tanky meta less prominent. Yes barely anyone is using magma because corrosive is better suited for PvP, this is happening for many morphs of abilitities.

I disagree, removing undeath passive will only serve to make Corrosive stronger than it already is. You're literally suggesting for the only mitigation not affected by Corrosive's full pen be taken away from people's builds. Undeath being broken is a different topic on its own, but Undeath is absolutely needed vs a Corrosive DK.

No class in the game should have an ultimate that gives nigh invincibility and full penetration for a mere cost of 200 ultimate. Not to mention Battle Roar instantly restoring a lot of resources as well as HP. If you and others think Corrosive doesn't need a nerf, then I want Spell Wall to also give full penetration and last 10 seconds. They can increase the cost to 200, I don't really care, but everyone will quickly see how broken Spell Wall would be, and maybe just then people will realize Corrosive is THAT broken.

Jammy420 wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You are kinda mixing the timelines. When corrosive recived a nerf to only affect direct damage it was after first reciving a massive buff. Initially it was increasing only physical penetration so including DoTs ascaling from it, then ZOS expanded it into all dmg which was a bit too much so they removed DoT part because DoT meta was also running rampant during that time. At the end of the day it was still a buff, yet back than DK with corrosive was not that complained about as it is right now. This came later with changes like hybridisation, adding new items to the game and basically forcing PvP scene to run as vampires.

I definitely did not mix the timelines. @Remiem gave a pretty good response demonstrating Corrosive's changes over the years.

DKs with Corrosive did in fact get complained about, otherwise ZoS would've allowed DoTs to benefit from full penetration. I remember very well for almost a year that every single stamDK was running Corrosive Armor in SnB/2H or DW/2H.

Galeriano wrote: »

Corrosive was a core of stam DK identity same as take flight. One was used to nuke more squishy targets other to brawl in some 1vX under the pressure or to melt a bit some toyugher opponents. And bgoth ultimates had times when they were replaced by othewr options like s&b ulti or DBoS but it doesn't change a fact they were always a option worth considering.

Core identity of a brawler DK, I would agree with. However, I do not think Corrosive was replaced. SnB/2H DKs would slot Corrosive on SnB bar and Take Flight on 2H bar and benefit from both. Some DKs would slot DBoS instead of Take Flight, but none would drop Corrosive for either ultimate.

Galeriano wrote: »

You really don;t need to touch corrosive to make DK less effective. Just removing or reworking undeath passive the way people woulnd't be sitting at stage 3 of vampirism would already make DK noticably weaker and it would also make tanky meta less prominent. Yes barely anyone is using magma because corrosive is better suited for PvP, this is happening for many morphs of abilitities.

I disagree, removing undeath passive will only serve to make Corrosive stronger than it already is. You're literally suggesting for the only mitigation not affected by Corrosive's full pen be taken away from people's builds. Undeath being broken is a different topic on its own, but Undeath is absolutely needed vs a Corrosive DK.

No class in the game should have an ultimate that gives nigh invincibility and full penetration for a mere cost of 200 ultimate. Not to mention Battle Roar instantly restoring a lot of resources as well as HP. If you and others think Corrosive doesn't need a nerf, then I want Spell Wall to also give full penetration and last 10 seconds. They can increase the cost to 200, I don't really care, but everyone will quickly see how broken Spell Wall would be, and maybe just then people will realize Corrosive is THAT broken.

They just need to move undeath to stage 4. Easy fx.

That would be a buff to DK. People would still want to benefit from dmg mitigation undeath provides so they would go and become stage 4 vampire and at that point DK wouild be hitting everyone harder.

On what planet would moving undeath to stage four, meaning you take MORE flame damage, and have less regen, and everything cost more than stage 3 be a buff?

It's evident in this response and your surly response to my last comment that you simply do not understand the implications of the Flame Damage taken penalty. It means DK does more damage. Hence the title of my thread, which was much better than yours: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/628489/dk-needs-a-13-damage-nerf#latest

StaticWave wrote: »

And believe it or not, being Vamp 3 is actually better against DKs than not being Vamp 3 because of how the scaling works. I forgot what patch it was, but ZoS changed the scaling to start from 100% HP instead of at 50% HP. This means that at 100% HP you will receive no mitigation from Undeath, and every 1% of missing health your mitigation will increase until it reaches 30% at 0% HP. This mitigation is applied linearly. You take 13% extra flame damage as a Vamp 3. In order for Undeath to cancel out the extra flame damage taken, you would have to sit at ~57% HP or so. After 57% HP, you will take LESS damage from DKs.

DKs will still eat through someone with Undeath though, but against someone without it DKs will eat through even faster lol.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

Vampirism has nothing to do with it like others said, you get killed by dks even faster without it.

To clarify on this point, yes Mortals take even more Flame Damage than Vampires below 2/3 health or something. But if you are a Vampire - and burst skills' co-efficients are balanced against each other for PvE purposes - than Flame Damage skills do 13% more damage to you than non-Flame.

Which is why I've said if nothing else just remove the Flame Damage taken penalty from Vampirism, it alone causes some degree of imbalance. (Granted removing it could move more PvE Support to Vampirism, not sure what the problem with that would be though).

Vampires receive less fire dmg below 56.67% hp, not below 66.67% ((30-13)/30=17/30=56.67%). 56.67% is only slightly higher than 50%. Even if you get oneshottet by an acuity magdk, your fire dmg received is a vampire stage3 is only slightly than that of a mortal. Your average health in combat should be higher than 57% (except you are low health% build using 2 of pariah/titanborn/ truthswornfury and want to play on low life), because most players try to stay at/heal to full health all the time. When you are in execute range than you are soon executed or you heal to full again. Even when you are at 70% hp players will see that as chance to use to use their burst combo (if they cant burst you down at full health), so you dont want stay at this hp%. So vampires get more fire dmg than mortals. The 8% cost increase vs a pressure magdk is also very bad, so when fighting a mag dk I dont want to be stage 3 vampire. But against everything else.
Still swapping undeath passive and vampire sprint could make sense, because undeath gives more mitigation against every other class(also stamdk, when they are not using whip/FOO too much), while invisible sprint is not useful in actual combat that much and rather used to avoid fights/escape when you get attacked on sight by a enemy that is still far away(usually a group that outnumbers me so much that i have below 0% chance to win). With increased detect range this ability can get countered even better. I have no pitty with zergs that attack outnumbered players on sight unprovocated when their target doesnt even kill them all but just escapes. Undeath is much more used and problematic than invisible spring but vampire penalty increase of stage 4 is higher than stage 3.
Dawnbreaker and other fighting guild abilitys also should hit harder against vampires. Fighters guild abilitys used to hit 20% harder against werewolf or vampire players and npcs, now they hit 20% harder vs werewolf/vampire players and 10% harder against everyone including mortal players, so you get only 8-9% more dmg from fighters guild abilitys. Also they are neither fire nor poison dmg, so these dmg types still hit harder vs vampires(fire) and werewolves(poison). Fighters guild abilitys should do higher bonus dmg vs vampires, less bonus dmg vs mortals, ignore undeath passive or be added to flame dmg penalty. DKs usually use their class ultimates and together with nb is the class that uses dawnbreaker the least and would benefit the least from a buff except specifically building to be a vampire killer.
Prismatic glyph should also be reverted to be a glyph doing high dmg to vampires only.
That way other classes have more tools vs vampires too.

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You are kinda mixing the timelines. When corrosive recived a nerf to only affect direct damage it was after first reciving a massive buff. Initially it was increasing only physical penetration so including DoTs ascaling from it, then ZOS expanded it into all dmg which was a bit too much so they removed DoT part because DoT meta was also running rampant during that time. At the end of the day it was still a buff, yet back than DK with corrosive was not that complained about as it is right now. This came later with changes like hybridisation, adding new items to the game and basically forcing PvP scene to run as vampires.

I definitely did not mix the timelines. @Remiem gave a pretty good response demonstrating Corrosive's changes over the years.

DKs with Corrosive did in fact get complained about, otherwise ZoS would've allowed DoTs to benefit from full penetration. I remember very well for almost a year that every single stamDK was running Corrosive Armor in SnB/2H or DW/2H.

Galeriano wrote: »

Corrosive was a core of stam DK identity same as take flight. One was used to nuke more squishy targets other to brawl in some 1vX under the pressure or to melt a bit some toyugher opponents. And bgoth ultimates had times when they were replaced by othewr options like s&b ulti or DBoS but it doesn't change a fact they were always a option worth considering.

Core identity of a brawler DK, I would agree with. However, I do not think Corrosive was replaced. SnB/2H DKs would slot Corrosive on SnB bar and Take Flight on 2H bar and benefit from both. Some DKs would slot DBoS instead of Take Flight, but none would drop Corrosive for either ultimate.

Galeriano wrote: »

You really don;t need to touch corrosive to make DK less effective. Just removing or reworking undeath passive the way people woulnd't be sitting at stage 3 of vampirism would already make DK noticably weaker and it would also make tanky meta less prominent. Yes barely anyone is using magma because corrosive is better suited for PvP, this is happening for many morphs of abilitities.

I disagree, removing undeath passive will only serve to make Corrosive stronger than it already is. You're literally suggesting for the only mitigation not affected by Corrosive's full pen be taken away from people's builds. Undeath being broken is a different topic on its own, but Undeath is absolutely needed vs a Corrosive DK.

No class in the game should have an ultimate that gives nigh invincibility and full penetration for a mere cost of 200 ultimate. Not to mention Battle Roar instantly restoring a lot of resources as well as HP. If you and others think Corrosive doesn't need a nerf, then I want Spell Wall to also give full penetration and last 10 seconds. They can increase the cost to 200, I don't really care, but everyone will quickly see how broken Spell Wall would be, and maybe just then people will realize Corrosive is THAT broken.

ZoS removing DoT penetration from corrosive doesnt mean it got complained about, ZoS nerfs many things without anyone complaining about. It was nerfed the same patch they gave onslaught full direct dmg penetration because ZoS often nerfs a skill also directly when they copy its function to another skill to make new skill with the function even stronger. Onslaught ugh also gives burst ulti dmg on top of full penetration.
I remeber a stamsorc that would oneshot me with 12k onslaught, 8k dizzy, 12k executioner combo. Althought i dodge rolled immediately when he startet onslaught animation and dizzy and onslaught has cast tim, he would hit me with all 3 skills at the dame time in the middle of dodge roll animation and instakill me. While this seems to be the result of desync, 12k burst dmg of onslaugh on top of full penetration is not useless and removes almost half a players heakth bar. When trying to oneshot a player it can be much more useful than corrosive.

Spell wall also reflects projectiles and can kill casters with their own reflected bow ulti/projectiles. Againt ranged builds that can be much more useful than corrosive.
When you give full penetration to spell wall they would have to loose ranged reflect but ranged reflect is an unque feature after they removed it from dragonfirescale/wings.

Many people claim that DK gets buffed every update and receives no nerfs althought it is conpletely wrong, DK was nerfed every of the last 5 updates except u36 and received only small buffs that in no way compensate for the nerfs.
Minor often useless buffs get heavily complained about while fat nerfs just get ignored like they never happened. Last update DK got buffed more than nerfed was u33, i would choose u33 dk over u38 dk anytime.
Warden and Necro got much less nerfs when they were meta, they only received small nerfs in u28 and warden a nerf to polar wind in u30 althought their meta startet before u26 and lasted until u32 when they buffed dk and templar without beeing nerfed much. They only received more nerfs when they were already out of meta, so necro got bottom tier, while warden after some nerfs got buffed to meta in u35 again. When ZoS buffs other classes and nerfs dk even more than it will become bottom tier any maybe worse than necro now. Main reason DK is still meta is that other classes got nerfed even more.
Also seems like corrosive got more popular in update 35 when they nerfed dk dots, introduced mara that outheals and purges them and gives resistance and gave everyone using vigor minor resolve so that dks have to rely more on direct dmg and less on dots and penetrate more armor so corrosive penetrstion is needed more.