DK needs a 13% Damage Nerf

Urzigurumash

Due to the Vampire Flame Damage Taken Penalty and the indispensability of Undeath

Wise_Will

No, DK is fine

No they don't.

Urzigurumash

Alternatives:

- HP Regen is released from Battle Spirit's penalty
- Mag and Stam Regen are subject to Battle Spirit's penalty
- The Vampire Flame Damage Taken Penalty is removed
- Undeath is nerfed

TechMaybeHic

None of the above.

Urzigurumash

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

None of the above.

What about 1 of my 4 alternatives?

TechMaybeHic

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

None of the above.

What about 1 of my 4 alternatives?

They sound like non-DK things trying to compensate for DK things.

And FWIW; it's not just fire damage in the DK kit. They also seem to be top DPS in PvE as well. So all of it seems to be off.

Thecompton73

No, DK is fine

People constantly calling for damage nerfs because someone actually killed them in PvP -shudders at the thought- is how we wound up in the boring tanky mess of a meta we've been stuck in for the last few months. Most smaller groups don't even bother to siege keeps anymore unless there is a zerg around because all it takes is one person to come out and burn all the siege while they shrug off the damage of 6-8 people.

TechMaybeHic

I don't know what the plan is for DK, especially for PvE, but PvP I'd split corrosive to offense or defense morph, reduce health return by battle roar if not remove it, reduce the scaling on heal increase of coagulating blood, reduce shield that comes with leap, make whip expire if missed, and then give all melee the extra 2 meter and not leave that to only DK as it's a godsend in lag. Then buff 3 other classes.

TechMaybeHic

Thecompton73 wrote: »

People constantly calling for damage nerfs because someone actually killed them in PvP -shudders at the thought- is how we wound up in the boring tanky mess of a meta we've been stuck in for the last few months. Most smaller groups don't even bother to siege keeps anymore unless there is a zerg around because all it takes is one person to come out and burn all the siege while they shrug off the damage of 6-8 people.

Pretty sure it was you I saw last night that stopped fighting, or so it seemed and hopped up and down while blocking. So I stopped and went to wave and you leaped me lol

Urzigurumash

Thecompton73 wrote: »

People constantly calling for damage nerfs because someone actually killed them in PvP -shudders at the thought- is how we wound up in the boring tanky mess of a meta we've been stuck in for the last few months. Most smaller groups don't even bother to siege keeps anymore unless there is a zerg around because all it takes is one person to come out and burn all the siege while they shrug off the damage of 6-8 people.

We endured Tank Metas before DK's recent damage buffs, and back then DK was regarded as only a good tank, and also only a few of us even played the class for quite some time.

Back in 2020 people said Proc Scaling and HP Regen's nerf would fix the Tank Meta. I'm after balance, not damage nerfs for the sake of damage nerfs, just read another of my famous polls:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/622887/conditional-damage-procs-deserve-more-aggressive-scaling#latest

Thecompton73

No, DK is fine

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

People constantly calling for damage nerfs because someone actually killed them in PvP -shudders at the thought- is how we wound up in the boring tanky mess of a meta we've been stuck in for the last few months. Most smaller groups don't even bother to siege keeps anymore unless there is a zerg around because all it takes is one person to come out and burn all the siege while they shrug off the damage of 6-8 people.

Pretty sure it was you I saw last night that stopped fighting, or so it seemed and hopped up and down while blocking. So I stopped and went to wave and you leaped me lol

Oops, sorry bout that. I think I remember it happening and after thought it was weird that it felt like you kinda let me kill you but didn't see your name or realize what was going on. Usually when people start hopping up and down I take it as a sign of "na na you can't kill me".

Urzigurumash

@TechMaybeHic @Thecompton73

Sounds like, if you absolutely had to pick one of my original options, you'd vote for #3, reduce DK's tankiness.

I was resolutely opposed to this idea for years out of affinity and acceptance for being "The Tank Class", but times change, the masses don't want specific classes to be specific roles - which makes sense since this is TES.

TechMaybeHic

Thecompton73 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

People constantly calling for damage nerfs because someone actually killed them in PvP -shudders at the thought- is how we wound up in the boring tanky mess of a meta we've been stuck in for the last few months. Most smaller groups don't even bother to siege keeps anymore unless there is a zerg around because all it takes is one person to come out and burn all the siege while they shrug off the damage of 6-8 people.

Pretty sure it was you I saw last night that stopped fighting, or so it seemed and hopped up and down while blocking. So I stopped and went to wave and you leaped me lol

Oops, sorry bout that. I think I remember it happening and after thought it was weird that it felt like you kinda let me kill you but didn't see your name or realize what was going on. Usually when people start hopping up and down I take it as a sign of "na na you can't kill me".

LoL I saw and blocked and healed, then friendlies came and you went to Brindle Farm the fast way.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@TechMaybeHic @Thecompton73

Sounds like, if you absolutely had to pick one of my original options, you'd vote for #3, reduce DK's tankiness.

I was resolutely opposed to this idea for years out of affinity and acceptance for being "The Tank Class", but times change, the masses don't want specific classes to be specific roles - which makes sense since this is TES.

I was thinking the other way as well, as a possibility to tone down burst potential and bring their DOTs back up with tankiness/healing left in tact; but I think DOTs are already why they parse well, and as a templar; I currently hate the idea of robbing any class the option to burst, which is a thing more unique to PvP needing to happen

I also think things like Maras Balm giving classes that are not supposed to purge, suddenly a full purge throws things out of whack as well

OBJnoob

Yes

I voted yes because they definitely need adjusting.

I wouldn't nerf their sustain since Ash Cloud is already going to be fixed and Mist Form is changing as well. I'd prefer to see where it sits afterwards instead of laying another nerf on top.

I wouldn't nerf their tankyness because I feel like this should be something they have a slight advantage in.

13% sounds like a lot. Its also a very specific number so methinks you have a reason for picking it? Pending your reasoning, I might go for something like 5% instead.

But either way I'm voting yes and sticking to it. I have no idea why anybody would say DKs are fine. They clearly aren't balanced in any content. I guess it's the age old "just buff other classes," sentiment but this is an unrealistic approach from people with less than circumspect views. Power creep is a real thing. And while the newest content is always hard, plenty of people are bored with the ridiculously easy other 97% of the game. Buffing classes EVERY time there's a disparity in balance WILL lead to another U35. Sometimes nerfs are the right answer.

Urzigurumash

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

People constantly calling for damage nerfs because someone actually killed them in PvP -shudders at the thought- is how we wound up in the boring tanky mess of a meta we've been stuck in for the last few months. Most smaller groups don't even bother to siege keeps anymore unless there is a zerg around because all it takes is one person to come out and burn all the siege while they shrug off the damage of 6-8 people.

Pretty sure it was you I saw last night that stopped fighting, or so it seemed and hopped up and down while blocking. So I stopped and went to wave and you leaped me lol

Oops, sorry bout that. I think I remember it happening and after thought it was weird that it felt like you kinda let me kill you but didn't see your name or realize what was going on. Usually when people start hopping up and down I take it as a sign of "na na you can't kill me".

LoL I saw and blocked and healed, then friendlies came and you went to Brindle Farm the fast way.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@TechMaybeHic @Thecompton73

Sounds like, if you absolutely had to pick one of my original options, you'd vote for #3, reduce DK's tankiness.

I was resolutely opposed to this idea for years out of affinity and acceptance for being "The Tank Class", but times change, the masses don't want specific classes to be specific roles - which makes sense since this is TES.

I was thinking the other way as well, as a possibility to tone down burst potential and bring their DOTs back up with tankiness/healing left in tact; but I think DOTs are already why they parse well, and as a templar; I currently hate the idea of robbing any class the option to burst, which is a thing more unique to PvP needing to happen

I also think things like Maras Balm giving classes that are not supposed to purge, suddenly a full purge throws things out of whack as well

I was always in favor of being a DoT Tank but it never complied with the majority opinion on this forum that "Tanks should not deal damage". Since my first post on this forum, I've always maintained: DKs are Tanks, Orcs are Tanks, because Knights wear Heavy Armor, Orcs wear Heavy Armor, and I'm told Heavy Armor = Tank.

Urzigurumash

OBJnoob wrote: »

13% sounds like a lot. Its also a very specific number so methinks you have a reason for picking it? Pending your reasoning, I might go for something like 5% instead.

The Stage 3 Vampire Penalty, hence my 4 alternatives.

I like the idea of subjecting Mag and Stam Regen to Battle Spirit, since HP Regen is. It would be quite a mess so it sounds like the most interesting idea.

With such a massive penalty to sustain, not so many could afford Undeath, and not so many would be subject to 13% additional Flame Damage. Nobody could sustain blockcasting heals or roll-dodging as they currently do, people would have to expose themselves with Heavy Attack's cast times, and the Damage per Resource advantage enjoyed by DoTs would elevate their effectiveness in PvP.

And yes @TechMaybeHic there's Poison and Physical Damage in the kit as well, but how many Take Flights do you see in your recaps versus Ferocious Leap?

Thecompton73

No, DK is fine

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I don't know what the plan is for DK, especially for PvE, but PvP I'd split corrosive to offense or defense morph, reduce health return by battle roar if not remove it, reduce the scaling on heal increase of coagulating blood, reduce shield that comes with leap, make whip expire if missed, and then give all melee the extra 2 meter and not leave that to only DK as it's a godsend in lag. Then buff 3 other classes.

I'm not going to argue Corrosive isn't strong but people aren't building glass and then surviving because they're in corrosive form. It's people building tanky with low pen then using Balorghs and corrosive to have a 10 second window of dots doing a lot more damage and DD attacks doing a crap ton more. All those players would just choose the offensive morph and they'd still be tanky.

I could get behind getting less health back when popping ulti's it is a definitly source of extreme survivability.

Coag is fairly expensive and even with around 7K weapon damage and my 12% bonus up it's non-crit ( I've got 33% chance) heal is about 9K. Seems solid until you start getting effects like defiled, meatbaged or minor/major cowardice on you and it only hits for 5K when you're just about dead and have 10-15K damage incoming from 2-3 people.

Can also agree with charged whip going away on a miss. It's so much easier to build stacks than NB's version and can be done out of combat and always lasts a set amount of time instead of just disappearing right before you can use it. Being able to dodge it should reward the opponent. Of course having to hit FoO twice then gap closing for Major Berserk up when they get it back isn't much punishment for the DK.

Mixed feelings on the 2M range buff. I miss it when I'm on my Sorc and NB but that's means it's a really good passive to set DK's apart. NB gets a free 10% crit damage buff which is equally strong. Sorc gets a lame buff of doing more damage the more health someone has left, which conversely means you do less when execute.


Edit: ah, don't remember that one then. Was probably only thinking about getting the heck out before getting jumped. Someone else was bunny hopping around like a sweaty and then I ran up hit a couple of dots, leaped and whipped and they dropped so quick I figured they let it happen.

OBJnoob

Yes

@Urzigurumash Well DKs aren't the only people who do flame damage and also everybody isn't a vampire. I don't think DKs need nerfed so vampires can be stronger... They just need nerfed. So I'd say 5% continues to be my opinion.

Also, if ever you and I were to return to our old stamdks, we wouldn't appreciate a 13% decrease to our NON flame attacks, eh?

TechMaybeHic

Urzigurumash wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

13% sounds like a lot. Its also a very specific number so methinks you have a reason for picking it? Pending your reasoning, I might go for something like 5% instead.

The Stage 3 Vampire Penalty, hence my 4 alternatives.

I like the idea of subjecting Mag and Stam Regen to Battle Spirit, since HP Regen is. It would be quite a mess so it sounds like the most interesting idea.

With such a massive penalty to sustain, not so many could afford Undeath, and not so many would be subject to 13% additional Flame Damage. Nobody could sustain blockcasting heals or roll-dodging as they currently do, people would have to expose themselves with Heavy Attack's cast times, and the Damage per Resource advantage enjoyed by DoTs would elevate their effectiveness in PvP.

And yes @TechMaybeHic there's Poison and Physical Damage in the kit as well, but how many Take Flights do you see in your recaps versus Ferocious Leap?

Mag and stam Regen impacted by battle spirit, impacts some classes more than others. It would then depend on mag/stam return abilities and which is best. I bet on NB at that point with 2h and assassination and reave and siphon strikes.

I already avoid vamp in group builds because DK and siege; but then take it on more solo builds. Undeath could probably just be toned down slightly

the1andonlyskwex

You're making a much better argument for nerfing Vampire's Undeath passive than you are for nerfing DK damage.

Urzigurumash

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Urzigurumash Well DKs aren't the only people who do flame damage and also everybody isn't a vampire. I don't think DKs need nerfed so vampires can be stronger... They just need nerfed. So I'd say 5% continues to be my opinion.

Also, if ever you and I were to return to our old stamdks, we wouldn't appreciate a 13% decrease to our NON flame attacks, eh?

All true, as with your first post in this thread. This Forum has been admonished for suggesting Undeath should be nerfed, I was told HP Regen was very naughty and shouldn't exist (being the erstwhile counterbalance to Undeath), so those things are off the table, and I'd be surprised that anybody in PvP isn't a Vampire?

Urzigurumash

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

You're making a much better argument for nerfing Vampire's Undeath passive than you are for nerfing DK damage.

Correct, any of those 4 alternatives I listed could help to curtail DK's power.

As I've noted before, I suspect the revision to World in Ruin is especially culpable in overpowering DK - rather than skills/ultimates which were just the same when DK was unpopular (in light of the nerf to HP Regen and the buff to Undeath).

OBJnoob

Yes

Also... Should've just included this, but will add it instead.

What you said about mag and stam getting the health recovery treatment: oh God no. My builds always run low-ish recoveries anyway and I crutch on tripots.

Your point about less people making use of Undeath is probably true, but I don't think your point about blocking is. Rss don't return while blocking anyway, so it'd kinda be a buff for that playstyle I think.

More to the point though I just don't see people giving up their defense for sustain. I see them sacrificing offense instead. People would run engine guardian instead of whatever their running now... Trade their sea serpents coil for torc of conal constancy perhaps... In the end I just think it'd make the tank meta worse not better. Instead of stalemating for 10 minutes (during which time both people unleashed their full combo on the opponent multiple times and are therefore sure they can't kill each other,) people would stalemate for 3 instead, and go their separate ways unsure of if it was a stalemate or not because they were both out of resources.

If you notice your opponent is eating your resources what do you stop doing to make up for it? Do you stop healing yourself? Or do you stop attacking? I think 99% of players stop attacking.

Edit: Okay even I won't make 3 consecutive posts so... One last thing. I also worry that this might contribute to the tank meta by increasing average health-- if people decide heavy armor is a good way to get some of their recovery back.

Urzigurumash

Yes all good points, not only Constitution but any non-Regen Resource Restoration would become stronger - including Battle Roar.

It's a silly idea for sure, no clue how it would shake out but your predictions are probably sound.

Does anybody have any reasonable opposition to removing the Flame Damage Taken Penalty on Vampire?

the1andonlyskwex

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Yes all good points, not only Constitution but any non-Regen Resource Restoration would become stronger - including Battle Roar.

It's a silly idea for sure, no clue how it would shake out but your predictions are probably sound.

Does anybody have any reasonable opposition to removing the Flame Damage Taken Penalty on Vampire?

It's the only real thing balancing out Undeath. The downside is that it disproportionately benefits DKs in PvP. I'd be fine if it were removed and replaced by some other penalty though.

In general, I would much prefer changes that result in fewer Vampires rather than changes that result in more.

OBJnoob

Yes

If the flame damage penalty is removed it should be replaced by something else.

TechMaybeHic

I'll be curious to see how often you see corrosive armor used when mist form, still defensive but not mitigate so much damage in between; and the change to holding block and casing an almost free ability to get back stam, as a lot of those guys crutch on that.

I just got to thinking when asked if I actually often see one morph of leap or the other in my death recaps; and the answer is I rarely see either as it is the easiest thing to see coming. DK it's usually going full ham with corrosive whip either from overwhelming numbers or the delay in lag to break free and roll dodge out of petrify

MEBengalsFan2001

Yes

Thecompton73 wrote: »

People constantly calling for damage nerfs because someone actually killed them in PvP -shudders at the thought- is how we wound up in the boring tanky mess of a meta we've been stuck in for the last few months. Most smaller groups don't even bother to siege keeps anymore unless there is a zerg around because all it takes is one person to come out and burn all the siege while they shrug off the damage of 6-8 people.

Damage across the board is still too high in PVE and PVP. As is healing.

Healing Adjustments: Healing is based on total resource pool and the higher recovery stat

Roles impact stats in Dungeons, Trails and PVP Zones:

DPS: heals are reduced by 75%, damage mitigation capped at 35% and gains 1000 penetration.

Tanks: Damage is reduced by 25%, heals are reduced by 75%, and healing in of 25%

Healers: Damage is reduced by 25%, damage mitigation is capped at 35% and gains 25% increase in healing out.

Something needs to be done and using roles to incorporate improvements to the game is the easiest path to making roles matter in ESO in both PVE and PVP.

axi

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

None of the above.

What about 1 of my 4 alternatives?

They sound like non-DK things trying to compensate for DK things.

And FWIW; it's not just fire damage in the DK kit. They also seem to be top DPS in PvE as well. So all of it seems to be off.

It's the same story in PvE. Unique dmg modifiers to flame dmg taken like engulfing flames(6%) and encatris behemoth(5%) give DK just enough edge over other classes to be dominant in optimised groups.

Urzigurumash

axi wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

None of the above.

What about 1 of my 4 alternatives?

They sound like non-DK things trying to compensate for DK things.

And FWIW; it's not just fire damage in the DK kit. They also seem to be top DPS in PvE as well. So all of it seems to be off.

It's the same story in PvE. Unique dmg modifiers to flame dmg taken like engulfing flames(6%) and encatris behemoth(5%) give DK just enough edge over other classes to be dominant in optimised groups.

In PvP too which is my whole argument. The new OP World in Ruin and the 13% Flame Damage Taken on Vampire.

@the1andonlyskwex This Flame Damage Penalty sort of balances Undeath yes but, still a Mortal takes even more damage from Flame than a Vampire - below 2/3rds HP or something.

@TechMaybeHic Good point about the recaps, I mostly play BGs so I'm 3rd Partied by Leaps all the time. Like Meteor, Leap is useless in a 1v1, but strong for 3rd Partying.

olsborg

No, DK needs a nerf to its Tank Power, as all classes must fulfill all roles equally well and DK cannot be the superlative Tank and a competent DD at the same time

Regardless, Undeath should be nerfed, but so should dks healing powers and corrosive armor is too strong aswell.