Rolling Back the HA Nerfs: A More Balanced Solution for All Players

loveeso · May 2023

twistedodean14 wrote: »

I believe in build diversity and play diversity. LA weaving and animation cancelling from what I remember was an unintended aspect of the game way back when. And was adopted as a feature in the game. That was not the case for HA, which was always intended. People pay a ton of money for the content, and therefore should have access to all of it. That's my view. So if HA oaken Builds is a way to that content, then so be it. My only issue that there are not a lot build diversity for the HA DPS playstyle. Honestly the average HA user is not pulling above 60k dps. And it's just enough to do some Vet dlc dungeons and normal trials. Let people have this.

Now the only thing is missing are people who want to play with both bars but don't want to light attack weave or they are really bad at it... Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet presented an interest opportunity for another playstyle but that opportunity is now non existent due the recent changes. To be honest, I'm not sure as to what the purpose of that mythic is now. Or even why it's in the game. The game has enough useless sets in it. I don't see why more needs to be added.

I'm not sure why end game players want to gate keep vet content through LA playstyle, isn't it better to have more players to be able to complete that content?

Totally agree.
And yeah, it's frustrating how the newly proposed non-LA playstyle got crushed by the nerf-happy "LA only" crowd before it even had a chance. Just like HA, it was already weaker than the LA meta, dealing less damage (similar to HA, actually) and struggling with sustain and ultimate regeneration. But nope, they had to nerf it further. It's just madness.

loveeso · May 2023

Kusto wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

To maintain focus and avoid disruption in our discussion, could we kindly redirect our attention to heavy attack builds once again—the builds that are currently being nerfed?

I'm confident that there are other threads in this forum dedicated to discussing the Oakensoul ring and whether it warrants a nerf.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

Except that 99% of HA builds ARE using Oakensoul. And that combo is over performing in content. Oakensoul itself is fine if used in some other builds and other HA builds without oaken are also fine. It's the combo that needs nerfing somehow.

So, to summarise what you wrote here (and what 3 (presumably anti-HA ) people found insightful and 5 others agreed with):

A. You say there is no need to nerf the following one-bar light-attack build, which 1. uses Oakensoul, 2. does as much damage as the strongest Oakensoul Lightning HA Sorc builds, and 3. is as tanky as them (because, as I have said before, tankiness comes from Oakensoul, not from using heavy attacks):

B. But you do want to nerf the following HA build, which 1. doesn't use Oakensoul, 2. uses two bars, in terms of 3. tankiness is the same as a two-bar light-attack meta DD, and 4. pre-nerf also does as much damage as the strongest Oakensoul Lightning HA Sorc build (i.e. much less than the LA meta):

These are just example builds, there are so many others, and you want to nerf all those that use heavy attacks without Oakensoul, and none of those that use Oakensoul if they don't use heavy attacks.

How is A not "overperforming" and B "overperforming" ?

I will not even mention another HA build demonstrated in the other thread that is only capable of achieving around 35k DPS on the trial dummy, which - as follows from what you wrote - you also want to nerf

Ok. I feel you.

An average player cant pull the same numbers with your Oaken Rele + Nirn build as they can with Oaken Sergeants + Storm master HA. Your build is melee for 1 and 2nd needs la weaving which many cant do, thats why theyre using HA in first place lol. Also your LA build doesnt have nearly as much aoe as HA build. So no, that doesnt need nerfing. The COMBO that everyone and their mom is using, Oaken, Sergeants, Storm is just broken af and needs heavy nerf. I just pugged vSS and 3 oaken HA just dominated top dps every pull. It happens in every trial unless theres some 120-130k parser in there. Stop playing with your elitist friends and go try pug something or run a trial with some casual average guild and you see it yourself.

Stop obsessing over other people's DPS and who's “dominating”. Just be happy that you have teammates who can complete trials with you. Outside of PvP, I've never seen this crazy obsession with how people achieve their DPS in any other MMOs I've played. Off the top of my head, games like Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft, and Warframe never had players criticising each other's DPS methods. Never seen it in my life. As long as you're doing mechanics and putting out enough DPS, everyone's satisfied. What's wrong with ESO? Stop this madness!

When it comes to builds and AoE, you either have a mediocre build that can handle a bit of everything or a specialised build that excels in either single-target or AoE DPS. It's always been like this, and I'm constantly surprised that people in these anti-HA threads don't seem to understand it. Take the lightning staff heavy-attack sorcerer, for example. It's a mediocre build because it isn't the best at either single-target or AoE damage. The tri-focus passive is overrated on this forum. In real boss fights, it usually contributes only 5% to 30% of the lightning sorcerer's DPS. In the now infamous vAS+2, it's typically around 20%, unless you and your team are doing something very wrong - in this case, learn the mechanics. So, 80% of the DPS has nothing to do with lightning heavy-attack AoE damage. Also, as I said before, AoE capabilities of lightning HA have nothing to do with Oakensoul.

I clearly mentioned that the two builds were just examples and that there are plenty of others out there. Want AoE? Use your creativity and focus more on AoE if you prefer - get a different set, class, AoE DoTs or spammable… whatever. Personally, I enjoy melee and don't prioritise AoE as much, so the builds I demonstrate (except for heavy-attacks) are what they are. Besides, anyone who's experienced end-game content knows that AoE isn't very important in most situations (in fact, it can sometimes be a problem). Lightning staves have always been designed to excel in AoE damage. Inferno staves are for single targets, lightning staves are for AoE, and ice staves are for tanks and applying chilled/brittle. Do you really want to nerf lightning staves and make them worse than any other weapon in every aspect? Well, that's strange, but feel free to create a thread about it if you want. Here, we are discussing two specific nerfs that affect all HA builds, not Oakensoul HA and not just lightning HA.

loveeso · May 2023

Lena_HJ wrote: »

@loveeso

example A - good luck DPSing vAS and I bet when Sail Ripper sees this setup, it will immediately land on the ground in awe and just let you spank it, while staff users will sit in the corner and weep. Shock dragons in Elsweyr? Grey Host vampire lords? Trivial. Content and dummy - again, different things.

example B - I see no build, just stats page. His bars may be all shields and CC tools. Nice crit chance though!

Please, don't take what I am writing here personally, I am being sarcastic because I am a bit well... frustrated with how vague developers were in patch notes when they explain the cause of the their decision to nerf Empower:

While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build.

So you and I, all of us may only guess what those "rare cases" are and what "overperforming" means.

No problem, I guess we are all frustrated.  

As I have written in a post above, AoE isn't really a concern for anyone who does end-game. For pure AoE / trash pulls, we have AoE setups. For the most important part, i.e. boss fights, what really matters is your single-target DPS and we usually have enough cleave. If for some strange reason we don't, you just focus the target you want to kill and it dies very quickly (because of your high ST DPS). And as for the one trial out of 11 that favours lightning Oakensoul HA builds, vAS+2, I have already written about it extensively in the other threads (incl. tables, data and so on). In short, the best teams are still LA there, so HA is weaker; everyone used to do it without HA (e.g. with bows) and we had comparable or even faster completion times than the current fastest runs. Re. melee and ranged, I like melee and never had a problem anywhere with it. The highest DPS (both ST and AoE) is currently melee. I did vAS+2 & Sail Ripper with melee so many times, it's not a problem at all. Sail Ripper is so easy that we shouldn't even talk about it, it feels like a world boss. If one learnt how to play this game, one can safely go melee. If one doesn't like melee, one can just switch to a bow or a staff.

As for the build you couldn’t find, the screenshot was meant to illustrate just the build parameters (especially its low "tankiness"). If you are interested in the actual build, it’s very similar to the build pasted by @LeeLooWasHere in the other thread but with fewer skills to use. I used to show full builds together with parses here but it has proven to be a waste of time. Those who are hell-bent on nerfing HA would either just ignore them, cherry-pick, or (in case of LA builds and despite my simulating sloppy weaves with missed attacks and/or sustain problems) claim that I was a master at weaving and was trying to cheat everyone into thinking that LA builds can be as tanky and as easy as HA builds while doing more damage. What makes this even more funny, others who did not see those because they did not bother to check out what's written in the threads they decided to comment in, were accusing me of being a noob who should learn how to play and weave instead of whining

. I honestly hesitate to call la-weaving a skill, it's more like learning a super simple rhythm and takes just a few hours at most to master. No idea why so many fixate on it.
So yeah, I stopped, wasting 15 or more minutes each time to create an example build and do a parse because it has proven to be a complete waste of time. You cannot make people see what they try really, really hard not to see. 

When I decided to stop wasting time on making builds and parses, I also decided to stop wasting time on posting nicely written comments for which I was accually accused of being an AI

. I have provided enough data in the other thread to make it clear to anyone who does not choose to be blind to facts what the truth on this matter is. As I mentioned at the beginning in my main thread, it is highly unlikely that I will extend my ESO+ or buy the expansion. I am trying to distance myself from ESO. Since I pay annually, I am sure I will still be doing stuff in game for the next few months. The friends from my guilds who lurk here and followed my posts also told me that despite being super polite and rational in what I wrote, and despite focusing on data and objectively verifiable facts, I was clearly being reported and my posts were snipped left and right while the anti-HA crowd was allowed free rein and engaged in whatever misinformation campaign and patronising trolling they wanted, (e.g. accusing others of lying about their disabilities, of being cowards (?!) etc.) so I don't think it makes any sense for me to spend any serious time and effort on this topic anymore. Everything that should be said has been said. We will see if ZOS will make a rational and fair decision. If not, well, you've made your bed, now lie in it...

Billium813 · May 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Oakensoul isn't the issue

No one would care that Oakensoul makes users a bit tankier then they should be, if the DPS wasn't so high. Is anyone even using Oakensoul OUTSIDE of HA builds? Are THOSE builds an issue? No? Then, it isn't Oakensoul.

The issue is 1000% Lightning Staff Channel Damage and how it works with "Heavy Attack" sets like Sergeant's Mail. That's it. There are no NON-HA Oakensoul builds that are an issue and there are no NON-Lightning Staff HA builds that are an issue. It isn't Oakensoul, and it isn't Empower.

If you still think the issue is Oakensoul, show me an abusive non-HA Oakensoul build that shows Oakensoul is too strong. If you still think the issue is Empower, show me an abusive non-Lightning Staff HA build that shows Empower needs a nerf.

What if I told You it's not one thing but combination of few that is an issue? Oakensoul is an issue when combined with lightning staff HA setups. It adds a big layer of simplicity and tankiness to a setup that normally wouldn't have it.

Before oakensoul arrival there were no complaints about one bar HA setups and HA setups were not so extremly popular as they are right now. Lightning staves were working as they're working right now back than so if that alone would be an issue we would've seen it already getting popularity before oakensoul.

Thing is oakensoul HA setups combine few advantegous features where some of them are related to lighting staves and some to oakensoul.

"Abusive" non HA oakesnoul setups were dealt with when ZoS nerfed oakensoul last time. That nerf was specifically targeting those types of setups. Changing major buffs to minor ones and adding buffed empower to oakensoul was a move specifically designed to lower the strenght of non HA oakensoul setups while keeping the strenght of oakensoul HA setups untouched or even increasaing it a bit.

> Lightning staves were working as they're working right now back than so if that alone would be an issue we would've seen it already getting popularity before oakensoul.

Yes and no. Lightning Staves (HA in general really) are not exactly working "back then" as they are working now. Heavy Attack damages have changed widely over the last several years. Also, sets like Sergeant's Mail have been changing over the last 2 years! https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7539805#Comment_7539805

It's really a perfect storm that makes Oakensoul look so bad. They buffed Heavy Attack sets, created a new "Empower" buff for HA builds, and then gave Oakensoul 100% uptime on that buff. The rest is all gravy.

Empower is actually a perfectly fine buff. All HA damages, even Lightning Staff's channel damage, receive the same Empower increase to damage! No one HA weapon can/is utilizing Empower more/less than any other. That's because it's a percentage. It makes sense that a HA build would want 100% uptime on a buff like Empower, hence they turn to Oakensoul... But Oakensoul isn't even 100% necessary for HA builds. Empower is, but Oakensoul really isn't. Heavy Attack sets like Sergeant's Mail are flat numbers, not percentages, and are 1000% necessary to the builds... that's the issue...

Now, I'm not saying that I don't think Oakensoul should be changed! I think Oakensoul is doing this interesting thing of trying to be a Tank, Healer, and DPS item all at once. The end result being that DPS gets access to things they never would/should have, even with 2 bars! If that DPS is really good too, then all the Tank/Healer buffs just make the build even better... https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7827317/#Comment_7827317

However, that isn't the issue that needs to tackled first. First, Lightning Staves and Heavy Attack sets need to be addressed. ONLY then can Oakensoul be properly reviewed. HA builds using them atm are skewing the numbers way too much to properly look at Oakensoul objectively.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks

Gandalf_72 · May 2023

tmbrinks wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Some comments on the @loveeso summary a couple posts above:
Overall, great work.

81 + 9 is not exactly 100.

Almost the whole discussion is about lightning attack HA builds. Observing that other HA builds do lousy DPS is not very relevant.

Nothing will fully settle the disagreement as to whether people with non-elite clicking skills should be allowed to do the toughest content. There will always be elite clickers greatly upset that lesser clickers are allowed into their club.

Kusto wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.

Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.

That is not entirely true. Not everyone can achieve close numbers with a HA build like Top-Tiel LA players, because it is not as simple as just pressing one button to get high numbers.

I just did this parse for ya, if you can call it a parse lol. I just held down 1 button for 4 and half minutes. My cat could step on the mouse button and get the same result. Theres 0 skill involved.

Also note that this is Warden, Sorc can get 80k
And this gets even better in actual content with multiple targets as 80% of this parse is aoe damage. All that with 29k HP, no pots use and 0 sustain issues. You can clear any content with it holding down 1 button, except trial trifectas. If thats not OP then I dont know what is.

But a team with 8 DDs like that wouldn't do 8x that damage, as they wouldn't do the DDs' share of raid buffing.

It can be frustrating to engage with those who refuse to consider opposing viewpoints, even when presented with logical evidence.

Completely agree. It is also frustrating when some players' opinions are presented as fact, and those that come to different conclusions have repeatedly been put down.

I agree too.
some opinions with which I agreed like this one and this one, are unfortunately no longer available totally or partially

Twig_Garlicshine · May 2023

loveeso wrote: »

Lena_HJ wrote: »

@loveeso

example A - good luck DPSing vAS and I bet when Sail Ripper sees this setup, it will immediately land on the ground in awe and just let you spank it, while staff users will sit in the corner and weep. Shock dragons in Elsweyr? Grey Host vampire lords? Trivial. Content and dummy - again, different things.

example B - I see no build, just stats page. His bars may be all shields and CC tools. Nice crit chance though!

Please, don't take what I am writing here personally, I am being sarcastic because I am a bit well... frustrated with how vague developers were in patch notes when they explain the cause of the their decision to nerf Empower:

While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build.

So you and I, all of us may only guess what those "rare cases" are and what "overperforming" means.

No problem, I guess we are all frustrated.  

As I have written in a post above, AoE isn't really a concern for anyone who does end-game. For pure AoE / trash pulls, we have AoE setups. For the most important part, i.e. boss fights, what really matters is your single-target DPS and we usually have enough cleave. If for some strange reason we don't, you just focus the target you want to kill and it dies very quickly (because of your high ST DPS). And as for the one trial out of 11 that favours lightning Oakensoul HA builds, vAS+2, I have already written about it extensively in the other threads (incl. tables, data and so on). In short, the best teams are still LA there, so HA is weaker; everyone used to do it without HA (e.g. with bows) and we had comparable or even faster completion times than the current fastest runs. Re. melee and ranged, I like melee and never had a problem anywhere with it. The highest DPS (both ST and AoE) is currently melee. I did vAS+2 & Sail Ripper with melee so many times, it's not a problem at all. Sail Ripper is so easy that we shouldn't even talk about it, it feels like a world boss. If one learnt how to play this game, one can safely go melee. If one doesn't like melee, one can just switch to a bow or a staff.

As for the build you couldn’t find, the screenshot was meant to illustrate just the build parameters (especially its low "tankiness"). If you are interested in the actual build, it’s very similar to the build pasted by @LeeLooWasHere in the other thread but with fewer skills to use. I used to show full builds together with parses here but it has proven to be a waste of time. Those who are hell-bent on nerfing HA would either just ignore them, cherry-pick, or (in case of LA builds and despite my simulating sloppy weaves with missed attacks and/or sustain problems) claim that I was a master at weaving and was trying to cheat everyone into thinking that LA builds can be as tanky and as easy as HA builds while doing more damage. What makes this even more funny, others who did not see those because they did not bother to check out what's written in the threads they decided to comment in, were accusing me of being a noob who should learn how to play and weave instead of whining . I honestly hesitate to call la-weaving a skill, it's more like learning a super simple rhythm and takes just a few hours at most to master. No idea why so many fixate on it.
So yeah, I stopped, wasting 15 or more minutes each time to create an example build and do a parse because it has proven to be a complete waste of time. You cannot make people see what they try really, really hard not to see. 

When I decided to stop wasting time on making builds and parses, I also decided to stop wasting time on posting nicely written comments for which I was accually accused of being an AI . I have provided enough data in the other thread to make it clear to anyone who does not choose to be blind to facts what the truth on this matter is. As I mentioned at the beginning in my main thread, it is highly unlikely that I will extend my ESO+ or buy the expansion. I am trying to distance myself from ESO. Since I pay annually, I am sure I will still be doing stuff in game for the next few months. The friends from my guilds who lurk here and followed my posts also told me that despite being super polite and rational in what I wrote, and despite focusing on data and objectively verifiable facts, I was clearly being reported and my posts were snipped left and right while the anti-HA crowd was allowed free rein and engaged in whatever misinformation campaign and patronising trolling they wanted, (e.g. accusing others of lying about their disabilities, of being cowards (?!) etc.) so I don't think it makes any sense for me to spend any serious time and effort on this topic anymore. Everything that should be said has been said. We will see if ZOS will make a rational and fair decision. If not, well, you've made your bed, now lie in it...

I agree with pretty much everything you've said.
This will be my last post in these threads and the ESO forums, the abuse of the report function is out of control to the point that any comments "some" disagree with, risk account closures.
They win.

Personally I enjoyed being able to have different builds LA/HA as I have no issues doing either.
It was also great seeing more diversity of players in the end game content itself.
Unfortunately that won't be the future, since the nerf calls have already begun for more nerfs to HA, and to the new alternate play style mythic
ESO could have rewarded real skills like situational awareness (mechanics), ability to get along with others under pressure.
Instead they've gone with:
2 finger typist A beats 2 finger typist B beats 2 finger typist C.
Skip as much of the content, mechanics as you can and turn it all into tank/spank burns, if you have high enough dps/hps.

I am probably done with the game itself, as well, due to "some" of the community.
They win.