Rolling Back the HA Nerfs: A More Balanced Solution for All Players

loveeso

When comparing the highest DPS builds from each play style, LA outperforms HA with 137k DPS compared to HA's 101k DPS (136%). Even when comparing the simplest DPS builds from each play style (one-skill LA vs HA-only), LA still outperforms HA with 86k DPS compared to HA's 83k DPS (for numbers or the One-Skill LA God build, please see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7860932#Comment_7860932).

These results clearly indicate that LA builds are overperforming and that a balance adjustment is needed.

Despite the evidence showing the overperformance of LA builds and the underperformance of HA builds, a vocal anti-HA minority (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7852319) has pushed for a nerf to the already underperforming HA play style. This backlash has resulted in ZOS proposing a change that would make HA even less viable, contrary to the need for balance and fairness in the game.
It's important to consider the facts and avoid making decisions based on emotions or personal preferences. The goal should always be to create an enjoyable and balanced gaming experience for all players, regardless of their preferred play style. While the anti-HA sentiment may be loud, it's important to remember that it doesn't represent the views of the entire community. Quite the opposite. Therefore, a balanced solution that takes all players' needs and preferences into account is the best way forward.

But wait, there is more! The proposed HA nerf would weaken ALL HA builds, regardless of the class or weapon used. This means that the comparisons drawn using a sorcerer wielding a lightning staff, using two pets, and achieving 101k DPS paints a misleading picture. MOST players prefer other classes and weapons so reaching 101k DPS is unachievable for the majority of HA players, no matter their skill level.
In fact, many classes and weapons can only achieve around 50k DPS with heavy attacks. This unbalanced scenario leads to LA builds outperforming HA builds available to those who choose other classes and weapons by a staggering 174% at the high end! It's unfair to suggest that this is a balanced state of the game, especially with the proposed nerf making HA builds even more underperforming.
Therefore, a more balanced solution would be to roll back the HA nerfs currently being tested on the PTS and BUFF the HA play style for all classes and weapons to achieve equal performance. This would address the huge difference in DPS between LA and HA play styles, different classes, different weapons, and make the game more fair for all players.

x To see the details and context that provide a deeper understanding of the current situation, please see the following thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7852319

NB: There seem to be at least one individual who follows myself and others interested in having a rational discussion about HA on these forums and, unfortunately, they frequently spew toxicity, misinformation, and even try to gaslight us all, so if you notice that I don't respond to a post that attacks what I wrote or HA builds in general, please don't assume that I agree with the poster or that their argument makes sense. It's possible that I have them blocked and am choosing to ignore their posts entirely. My replies to both rational and irrational arguments are available in the following thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631760/thoughts-of-a-random-guy-on-necrom-changes-to-ha-heavy-attack-builds-on-arcanist/p1 so it is highly likely that I have already replied there to whatever the aforementioned individual (or others like them) might have written (they usually repeat themselves a lot and just ignore facts and numbers). For your convenience, the first post in that thread contains updates with links summarising the whole discussion and updates.

Galeriano

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db4yldu-D4k

Galeriano

You are making lots of claims but You are not answering basic questions that needs to be answered if Your claims would be correct.

If light attack rotation is that easy and strong that in real content You could produce decent enough DPS even with just one ability and LA, why would one bar HA setups specifically be so popular? Is everyone suddenly such a big enjoyer of lightning staves and chanelling HA with them?

Why overwhelming majority of people using oakensoul is running with a heavy attack setup? If Your testing is reliable than why aren't there many one bar setups that are not HA based?

If one bar HA are in fact so unquestionably inferior to two bar setups in any given area than why there are certain places where among top 100 parses there is over 90 one bar HA users? Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

BlueRaven

My only issue with the current HA builds is that they do seem to be laser focused on Sorc lightning builds alone.

I wish there was similar builds for bows, dual wield, etc, and for all classes as well.

The HA nerf to me seems very misguided. The highest dps players are not using HA oak builds. I thought (from that last balancing patch) that those numbers were the problem? But the above average dps builds are now the “real” problem, I guess?

The timing of this seems so strange as they are introducing “world events” which are not really world events, but are actually 4 person vet type dungeons, as a daily. Do they want even less people capable of doing them?

isadoraisacat

BlueRaven wrote: »

My only issue with the current HA builds is that they do seem to be laser focused on Sorc lightning builds alone.

I wish there was similar builds for bows, dual wield, etc, and for all classes as well.

The HA nerf to me seems very misguided. The highest dps players are not using HA oak builds. I thought (from that last balancing patch) that those numbers were the problem? But the above average dps builds are now the “real” problem, I guess?

The timing of this seems so strange as they are introducing “world events” which are not really world events, but are actually 4 person vet type dungeons, as a daily. Do they want even less people capable of doing them?

I think if they left it alone some people would eventually figure out other ways to utilize the one bar build for other weapons.


I prefer the lighting because in Skyrim one of my favorite spells is a lighting channeled affect as a mage that basically melts everything and this works the same wall of storms I think it was called.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

My only issue with the current HA builds is that they do seem to be laser focused on Sorc lightning builds alone.

I wish there was similar builds for bows, dual wield, etc, and for all classes as well.

The HA nerf to me seems very misguided. The highest dps players are not using HA oak builds. I thought (from that last balancing patch) that those numbers were the problem? But the above average dps builds are now the “real” problem, I guess?

The timing of this seems so strange as they are introducing “world events” which are not really world events, but are actually 4 person vet type dungeons, as a daily. Do they want even less people capable of doing them?

I think if they left it alone some people would eventually figure out other ways to utilize the one bar build for other weapons.


I prefer the lighting because in Skyrim one of my favorite spells is a lighting channeled affect as a mage that basically melts everything and this works the same wall of storms I think it was called.

If You think that this only shows You have little understanding of how game works. Lightning stave dominates due to two factors. First because lightning staff HA is composed of 3 ticks every set like sergant and storm master is being tripled when used with lightning stave. Second is that lightning staff HA thanks to tri focus passive deals AoE dmg which makes it way more universal than other weapons. There are also additional features like fact that lightnig staff is a range weapon so it have natural advengate over meele weapons and it have easy way to proc off balance through lightning blockade and off nbalance makes HA 70% stronger for the dutation. No other weapon can come close. If You think otherwise You are simply wrong.

Zodiarkslayer

Both views on the matter are reconcileable, if one takes a look at the circumstances under which the damage spikes of the respective setups are occurring.

The upper end of dps was always dependend on buff management/uptimes and a good tank to hold the Boss in place. So light attacks with all their complexity and time necessary to "ramp up" the rotation are way ahead in stationary fights and controlled environments. Even if the mastery of rotations is not accounted for in that comparison.

If you look at mobile and mechanic intensive fights, the picture is quite different. And the Oakensoul HA builds can play out their trump card, which is their simplicity and the ability to focus on the fight mechanics.

Neither playstyle is superior, nor is anyone inferior. They are equals, just different.

I wish for this community to bury the resentment and start respecting each other again.

BlueRaven

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Both views on the matter are reconcileable, if one takes a look at the circumstances under which the damage spikes of the respective setups are occurring.

The upper end of dps was always dependend on buff management/uptimes and a good tank to hold the Boss in place. So light attacks with all their complexity and time necessary to "ramp up" the rotation are way ahead in stationary fights and controlled environments. Even if the mastery of rotations is not accounted for in that comparison.

If you look at mobile and mechanic intensive fights, the picture is quite different. And the Oakensoul HA builds can play out their trump card, which is their simplicity and the ability to focus on the fight mechanics.

Neither playstyle is superior, nor is anyone inferior. They are equals, just different.

I wish for this community to bury the resentment and start respecting each other again.

I did not really perceive that the people doing HA builds were upset with the more traditional and higher performing dual bar build players.

Rather the HA players were more upset that they were just incapable of doing that as a combat (light attack weaving) mechanic itself. They were not upset at the players actually doing them.

However it appears that a great many two bar build high end players were upset that single bar HA builds were performing somewhat well, even if they were not over performing the two bar builds.

These players seem to be under the impression that HA players “didn’t deserve” the dps output they were doing. Or at least a lower top end for those builds was “fine for the effort they were putting in”.

I get a feeling we are seeing the “WoW effect”starting to hit the community. Where a stratification of players has developed a grudge between high end players who “deserve” certain parts of the game to be closed off to their own play style and, well, everyone else.

isadoraisacat

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Both views on the matter are reconcileable, if one takes a look at the circumstances under which the damage spikes of the respective setups are occurring.

The upper end of dps was always dependend on buff management/uptimes and a good tank to hold the Boss in place. So light attacks with all their complexity and time necessary to "ramp up" the rotation are way ahead in stationary fights and controlled environments. Even if the mastery of rotations is not accounted for in that comparison.

If you look at mobile and mechanic intensive fights, the picture is quite different. And the Oakensoul HA builds can play out their trump card, which is their simplicity and the ability to focus on the fight mechanics.

Neither playstyle is superior, nor is anyone inferior. They are equals, just different.

I wish for this community to bury the resentment and start respecting each other again.

Heavy attack is much harder to dodge and position I’d argue it’s harder when you are trying to do a channeled attack. Light attack has swiftness on their side they are able to block and dodge with easy.

Both play styles utilize skill and tactics in different ways it’s just that one uses guitar hero rhythm combat which is not fun for most people. That’s why I never finished sekiro but finished all the other souls games on sl1. It wasn’t that it was hard it’s just that it wasn’t immersive and wasn’t fun it’s just playing dance dance revolution with your fingers, and many of us hate it in an elder scrolls game.

Soarora

Before anyone comes at me I’m semi-agreeing with OP.

The meta HA build is overpowered. It’s not just about parse numbers, look at how it’s being used in content by endgamers. That extra damage doesn’t actually mean anything. Meta HA has more than enough DPS to do any (except I haven’t seen DSR HM) content, plus infinite sustain, plus higher survivability than a traditional DPS, plus it’s ranged, plus it’s 1-3 buttons (on a sorc anyways), plus if sorc has even more survivability and a strong group heal. I don’t think the nerfs should be focused in empower where it affects all heavy attack builds though, it’s particularly the meta setup(s) for HA oakensorc that’s the problem. Most if not all other HA builds seem fine or even underpreforming.

I have commented a few times in other threads about seeing ha-only runs. While AS only requires oakensoul, many of the other runs I have seen require specifically heavy attack oakensorc.

I need to stop editing my posts all the time but anyways… the meta build is absolutely overpreforming but I think most people aren’t seeing it because they aren’t using the meta build. I think the meta build needs nerfed specifically and then buff the underpreforming builds to at least be viable but not to the point that it’s at the same level as a traditional build unless HA is fundamentally changed to be more difficult (remove some defensive buffs, maybe have HA take resource, etc.).

Okay, one more edit… I think it’d also be nice to remove the dependency on the meta HA sets. Seems like most people don’t even use them and it limits fun interactions like using a lightning HA’s LA ticks to keep up relequen. I think lightning HA is so strong compared to other HAs because of the sets anyways.

danno8

Soarora wrote: »

The meta HA build is overpowered. It’s not just about parse numbers, look at how it’s being used in content by endgamers. That extra damage doesn’t actually mean anything. Meta HA has more than enough DPS to do any (except I haven’t seen DSR HM) content, plus infinite sustain, plus higher survivability than a traditional DPS, plus it’s ranged, plus it’s 1-3 buttons, plus if sorc has even more survivability and a strong group heal. I don’t think the nerfs should be focused in empower where it affects all heavy attack builds though, it’s particularly the meta setup(s) for HA oakensorc that’s the problem. Most if not all other HA builds seem fine or even underpreforming.

I have commented a few times in other threads about seeing ha-only runs. While AS only requires oakensoul, many of the other runs I have seen require specifically heavy attack oakensorc.

I need to stop editing my posts all the time but anyways… the meta build is absolutely overpreforming but I think most people aren’t seeing it because they aren’t using the meta build. I think the meta build needs nerfed specifically and then buff the underpreforming builds to at least be viable but not to the point that it’s at the same level as a traditional build unless HA is fundamentally changed to be more difficult (remove some defensive buffs, maybe have HA take resource, etc.).

I think if ZoS did something about the 100% AoE splash damage afforded lightning staves it would go along way to even out HA builds great utility.

I mean why would it be 100% splash damage anyway? Even if HA Oakensorcs were not a thing it just seems way too high to begin with. At least 2H is melee and puts you closer to danger for the benefit.

Soarora

danno8 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

The meta HA build is overpowered. It’s not just about parse numbers, look at how it’s being used in content by endgamers. That extra damage doesn’t actually mean anything. Meta HA has more than enough DPS to do any (except I haven’t seen DSR HM) content, plus infinite sustain, plus higher survivability than a traditional DPS, plus it’s ranged, plus it’s 1-3 buttons, plus if sorc has even more survivability and a strong group heal. I don’t think the nerfs should be focused in empower where it affects all heavy attack builds though, it’s particularly the meta setup(s) for HA oakensorc that’s the problem. Most if not all other HA builds seem fine or even underpreforming.

I have commented a few times in other threads about seeing ha-only runs. While AS only requires oakensoul, many of the other runs I have seen require specifically heavy attack oakensorc.

I need to stop editing my posts all the time but anyways… the meta build is absolutely overpreforming but I think most people aren’t seeing it because they aren’t using the meta build. I think the meta build needs nerfed specifically and then buff the underpreforming builds to at least be viable but not to the point that it’s at the same level as a traditional build unless HA is fundamentally changed to be more difficult (remove some defensive buffs, maybe have HA take resource, etc.).

I think if ZoS did something about the 100% AoE splash damage afforded lightning staves it would go along way to even out HA builds great utility.

I mean why would it be 100% splash damage anyway? Even if HA Oakensorcs were not a thing it just seems way too high to begin with. At least 2H is melee and puts you closer to danger for the benefit.

I absolutely agree that changing the 100% splash damage is a route to be considered. It might even knock lightning ha oakensoul out of being the meta for vAS+2 if it’s a low enough %. It seems about half or so of HA users (on the forums) use HA only casually anyways and a lower % won’t be the end of the world there since enemies have lower health, assuming any of those users were using lightning in the first place.

Galeriano

Soarora wrote: »

Before anyone comes at me I’m semi-agreeing with OP.

The meta HA build is overpowered. It’s not just about parse numbers, look at how it’s being used in content by endgamers. That extra damage doesn’t actually mean anything. Meta HA has more than enough DPS to do any (except I haven’t seen DSR HM) content, plus infinite sustain, plus higher survivability than a traditional DPS, plus it’s ranged, plus it’s 1-3 buttons (on a sorc anyways), plus if sorc has even more survivability and a strong group heal. I don’t think the nerfs should be focused in empower where it affects all heavy attack builds though, it’s particularly the meta setup(s) for HA oakensorc that’s the problem. Most if not all other HA builds seem fine or even underpreforming.

I have commented a few times in other threads about seeing ha-only runs. While AS only requires oakensoul, many of the other runs I have seen require specifically heavy attack oakensorc.

I need to stop editing my posts all the time but anyways… the meta build is absolutely overpreforming but I think most people aren’t seeing it because they aren’t using the meta build. I think the meta build needs nerfed specifically and then buff the underpreforming builds to at least be viable but not to the point that it’s at the same level as a traditional build unless HA is fundamentally changed to be more difficult (remove some defensive buffs, maybe have HA take resource, etc.).

Okay, one more edit… I think it’d also be nice to remove the dependency on the meta HA sets. Seems like most people don’t even use them and it limits fun interactions like using a lightning HA’s LA ticks to keep up relequen. I think lightning HA is so strong compared to other HAs because of the sets anyways.

If to belive that picture than DSR HM have already been done with one bar setups

If that's legit than trifecta is on the way..

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

isadoraisacat

BlueRaven wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Both views on the matter are reconcileable, if one takes a look at the circumstances under which the damage spikes of the respective setups are occurring.

The upper end of dps was always dependend on buff management/uptimes and a good tank to hold the Boss in place. So light attacks with all their complexity and time necessary to "ramp up" the rotation are way ahead in stationary fights and controlled environments. Even if the mastery of rotations is not accounted for in that comparison.

If you look at mobile and mechanic intensive fights, the picture is quite different. And the Oakensoul HA builds can play out their trump card, which is their simplicity and the ability to focus on the fight mechanics.

Neither playstyle is superior, nor is anyone inferior. They are equals, just different.

I wish for this community to bury the resentment and start respecting each other again.

I did not really perceive that the people doing HA builds were upset with the more traditional and higher performing dual bar build players.

Rather the HA players were more upset that they were just incapable of doing that as a combat (light attack weaving) mechanic itself. They were not upset at the players actually doing them.

However it appears that a great many two bar build high end players were upset that single bar HA builds were performing somewhat well, even if they were not over performing the two bar builds.

These players seem to be under the impression that HA players “didn’t deserve” the dps output they were doing. Or at least a lower top end for those builds was “fine for the effort they were putting in”.

I get a feeling we are seeing the “WoW effect”starting to hit the community. Where a stratification of players has developed a grudge between high end players who “deserve” certain parts of the game to be closed off to their own play style and, well, everyone else.

I think a lot of is (and many of the people in the 2 guilds im in and very friendly with ) are all Skyrim players who never played an mmo or wow. Who started this game as it’s the only current elder scrolls game out. Many people did the quests, and solo stuff but saw “new 4 man dungeon prequel to story” so they tried to do it and got kicked out of a dungeon and realized they needed to play more “serious” to get more out of the story and the lore.

That was the case for me.

I don’t resent anyone. I have hand issues, and on top of it I don’t find this combat very fitting to the elder scrolls series.

HA play style feels close to real elder scrolls combat, and makes the game more enjoyable.

The dungeon mechanics are still hard. Last night I did a vet with a friend just me and him and we kept dying both oakensoul. Eventually we needed to break out the companions and eventually finished it.

The trials and vet dungeons are hard the mechanics and dodging are the difficult part.

I can weave I just don’t find it fun as it hurts my disabled hand and doesn’t feel like elder scrolls combat so it’s not worth the pain.

People playing these builds running though ver dungeons are still working through the mechs which are the hard parts.

But for whatever reason people don’t complain about those paying for Carrie’s but they do for those who actually play the game themselves with a different play style I wonder why that is?


Many of us just want more Skyrim like combat and HA is the closest it’s more fun and more enjoyable than doing a finger waltz.

Soarora

isadoraisacat wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Both views on the matter are reconcileable, if one takes a look at the circumstances under which the damage spikes of the respective setups are occurring.

The upper end of dps was always dependend on buff management/uptimes and a good tank to hold the Boss in place. So light attacks with all their complexity and time necessary to "ramp up" the rotation are way ahead in stationary fights and controlled environments. Even if the mastery of rotations is not accounted for in that comparison.

If you look at mobile and mechanic intensive fights, the picture is quite different. And the Oakensoul HA builds can play out their trump card, which is their simplicity and the ability to focus on the fight mechanics.

Neither playstyle is superior, nor is anyone inferior. They are equals, just different.

I wish for this community to bury the resentment and start respecting each other again.

I did not really perceive that the people doing HA builds were upset with the more traditional and higher performing dual bar build players.

Rather the HA players were more upset that they were just incapable of doing that as a combat (light attack weaving) mechanic itself. They were not upset at the players actually doing them.

However it appears that a great many two bar build high end players were upset that single bar HA builds were performing somewhat well, even if they were not over performing the two bar builds.

These players seem to be under the impression that HA players “didn’t deserve” the dps output they were doing. Or at least a lower top end for those builds was “fine for the effort they were putting in”.

I get a feeling we are seeing the “WoW effect”starting to hit the community. Where a stratification of players has developed a grudge between high end players who “deserve” certain parts of the game to be closed off to their own play style and, well, everyone else.

I think a lot of is (and many of the people in the 2 guilds im in and very friendly with ) are all Skyrim players who never played an mmo or wow. Who started this game as it’s the only current elder scrolls game out. Many people did the quests, and solo stuff but saw “new 4 man dungeon prequel to story” so they tried to do it and got kicked out of a dungeon and realized they needed to play more “serious” to get more out of the story and the lore.

That was the case for me.

I don’t resent anyone. I have hand issues, and on top of it I don’t find this combat very fitting to the elder scrolls series.

HA play style feels close to real elder scrolls combat, and makes the game more enjoyable.

The dungeon mechanics are still hard. Last night I did a vet with a friend just me and him and we kept dying both oakensoul. Eventually we needed to break out the companions and eventually finished it.

The trials and vet dungeons are hard the mechanics and dodging are the difficult part.

I can weave I just don’t find it fun as it hurts my disabled hand and doesn’t feel like elder scrolls combat so it’s not worth the pain.

People playing these builds running though ver dungeons are still working through the mechs which are the hard parts.

But for whatever reason people don’t complain about those paying for Carrie’s but they do for those who actually play the game themselves with a different play style I wonder why that is?


Many of us just want more Skyrim like combat and HA is the closest it’s more fun and more enjoyable than doing a finger waltz.

Hey Isadora, we may not always agree but thank you for this description now I understand why people say that the build isn’t a free achievement button [for them]. I actually come from Skyrim too, always wanted to play an rpgmmo but never really did. My main in ESO is actually a sneak archer sorcerer, just like how I play Skyrim ahaha. I hope something can be done about endgamers without ruining the build for everyone else. Definitely a fine line to walk for ZOS.

isadoraisacat

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Both views on the matter are reconcileable, if one takes a look at the circumstances under which the damage spikes of the respective setups are occurring.

The upper end of dps was always dependend on buff management/uptimes and a good tank to hold the Boss in place. So light attacks with all their complexity and time necessary to "ramp up" the rotation are way ahead in stationary fights and controlled environments. Even if the mastery of rotations is not accounted for in that comparison.

If you look at mobile and mechanic intensive fights, the picture is quite different. And the Oakensoul HA builds can play out their trump card, which is their simplicity and the ability to focus on the fight mechanics.

Neither playstyle is superior, nor is anyone inferior. They are equals, just different.

I wish for this community to bury the resentment and start respecting each other again.

I did not really perceive that the people doing HA builds were upset with the more traditional and higher performing dual bar build players.

Rather the HA players were more upset that they were just incapable of doing that as a combat (light attack weaving) mechanic itself. They were not upset at the players actually doing them.

However it appears that a great many two bar build high end players were upset that single bar HA builds were performing somewhat well, even if they were not over performing the two bar builds.

These players seem to be under the impression that HA players “didn’t deserve” the dps output they were doing. Or at least a lower top end for those builds was “fine for the effort they were putting in”.

I get a feeling we are seeing the “WoW effect”starting to hit the community. Where a stratification of players has developed a grudge between high end players who “deserve” certain parts of the game to be closed off to their own play style and, well, everyone else.

I think a lot of is (and many of the people in the 2 guilds im in and very friendly with ) are all Skyrim players who never played an mmo or wow. Who started this game as it’s the only current elder scrolls game out. Many people did the quests, and solo stuff but saw “new 4 man dungeon prequel to story” so they tried to do it and got kicked out of a dungeon and realized they needed to play more “serious” to get more out of the story and the lore.

That was the case for me.

I don’t resent anyone. I have hand issues, and on top of it I don’t find this combat very fitting to the elder scrolls series.

HA play style feels close to real elder scrolls combat, and makes the game more enjoyable.

The dungeon mechanics are still hard. Last night I did a vet with a friend just me and him and we kept dying both oakensoul. Eventually we needed to break out the companions and eventually finished it.

The trials and vet dungeons are hard the mechanics and dodging are the difficult part.

I can weave I just don’t find it fun as it hurts my disabled hand and doesn’t feel like elder scrolls combat so it’s not worth the pain.

People playing these builds running though ver dungeons are still working through the mechs which are the hard parts.

But for whatever reason people don’t complain about those paying for Carrie’s but they do for those who actually play the game themselves with a different play style I wonder why that is?


Many of us just want more Skyrim like combat and HA is the closest it’s more fun and more enjoyable than doing a finger waltz.

Hey Isadora, we may not always agree but thank you for this description now I understand why people say that the build isn’t a free achievement button [for them]. I actually come from Skyrim too, always wanted to play an rpgmmo but never really did. My main in ESO is actually a sneak archer sorcerer, just like how I play Skyrim ahaha. I hope something can be done about endgamers without ruining the build for everyone else. Definitely a fine line to walk for ZOS.

No worries. My main is a Khajiit mage modeled after isadora my best feline friend who died in 2020 from kidney failure. (I am a guy btw I just never felt it necessary to give my gender on a forum ) I made my first Skyrim and dark souls characters after her. In dark souls it was called isadora in Skyrim isa’do my first every character a male Khajiit but based on her likeness. Unfortunately I’m this game in restricted with names. But my character is a essentially for the same purpose to pay respect to my best friend and keep her memory Alive as I adventure.

I just like this play style because it hurts my hand less and reminds me of closer combat to Skyrim or any main series game.

I’m still dodging and doing all the mechanics myself I’m not just standing there hitting a cheat button.

But apparently no one bats any eye to those who pay for elite to “carry” them.

Soarora

Carries are different and aren’t actually widely accepted as a good thing. They don’t count in guilds as clears and a lot of people buy them because they can do it themselves and don’t want to (like gear farms) or they have a LOT (carries are expensive) of money, probably from trade guilds or crown selling (hopefully not scamming). People who offer carries are in it for the money. Personally, I don’t do official carries. Not gonna spend my time to do content just to give all the gear away for a few million gold. I’ll help people get skins and gear but I’m not gonna sell a carry. Their achievements pretty much only exist to the game and people who don’t know it was a carry (big guilds make sure it’s not by working with carry providers/requesting logs/etc.).

Most people who use HA probably can’t afford carries in the first place. They’re millions of gold each.

nokturnihs

Galeriano wrote: »

You are making lots of claims but You are not answering basic questions that needs to be answered if Your claims would be correct.

If light attack rotation is that easy and strong that in real content You could produce decent enough DPS even with just one ability and LA, why would one bar HA setups specifically be so popular? Is everyone suddenly such a big enjoyer of lightning staves and chanelling HA with them?

Why overwhelming majority of people using oakensoul is running with a heavy attack setup? If Your testing is reliable than why aren't there many one bar setups that are not HA based?

If one bar HA are in fact so unquestionably inferior to two bar setups in any given area than why there are certain places where among top 100 parses there is over 90 one bar HA users? Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

I don't see that much popularity in HA builds. When i do content I see about a third of users using HA builds.

And I have 15 CP level characters. 2 are HA builds. 3 are 2bar builds. The rest are 1bar builds. None are LA builds because I'm disabled and can't hit buttons 120x a minute.

My top performing 1bar builds are as follows:
- HA sorc using undaunted unweaver and storm master (regardless of the drivel some people post the nerf to Storm master WILL result in a 20-40% damage nerf for me) - best parse: 60k (parsing is a problem for me. The pain in my hands/body makes it unreliable as I'm not able to stop until the dummy dies and I get worse over time rather than better - this is the problem I have with 2bar rotations.)
-
- DoT Master magplar using oblivions foe and Deadly Strike. Best parse: 44k
- Status Ice Warden using serpents disdain and (formerly plaguebreak) burning spellweave. Best parse: 42k. Lower (36k) when on plaguebreak but with plaguebreak would see 100k bursts when trash mobs would blow up.
- Smashy Necro WW using hexos Ward and dragons appetite. 24k best parse. Built more for solo content.
- Ranged Gankblade Vamp using Venomous smite and other garbage. Haven't parsed in a while but can 1-3 shot most toons using venom injection and lethal arrow in BGs. Less so now due to the unending growth of tank meta.

The rest are healers or tanks. My 1bar tank are more than sufficient and can provide 50-80k damage shields to the party, heal better than most pug healers all on a 1bar.
My other tank doesn't do shields as well but AOE interrupts and major debuffs all the things. Both are capable of vet content.
My 1 bar warden healer is fine. still getting used to her skills but she's as decent as my 2bar templar healer.

As you can see I do -ok- with DPS on a 1bar. My HA Build sorc is the best. I don't use sergeant because of the same reason the SM nerf is gonna kill my DPS - uptime. I don't really enjoy the play style most the time but It's about the ONLY build outside of my tank that trial groups want in trials and half don't want that because it's a HA build.

If ZOS or the community screaming about how bad HA builds are for existing were to propose a way for someone like me to get into even the 80k range the OP mentioned I'd be interested and wouldn't care. Otherwise all the pushing against HA builds is exclusionary of people who physically don't have the same options as normal people. If normal people are using HA builds to get high parses - I'd say GOOD FOR THEM. Play smarter not harder.

Also you make a lot of claims about logs and parse data but haven't put down any evidence. Please do so.

isadoraisacat

Soarora wrote: »

Carries are different and aren’t actually widely accepted as a good thing. They don’t count in guilds as clears and a lot of people buy them because they can do it themselves and don’t want to (like gear farms) or they have a LOT (carries are expensive) of money, probably from trade guilds or crown selling (hopefully not scamming). People who offer carries are in it for the money. Personally, I don’t do official carries. Not gonna spend my time to do content just to give all the gear away for a few million gold. I’ll help people get skins and gear but I’m not gonna sell a carry. Their achievements pretty much only exist to the game and people who don’t know it was a carry (big guilds make sure it’s not by working with carry providers/requesting logs/etc.).

Most people who use HA probably can’t afford carries in the first place. They’re millions of gold each.

My point is, people should be more concerned with that practice as that is Cheating. HA you are still
Doing all the mechanics yourself. Weaving is a brain dead mechanic it’s really not hard. I can do it I just don’t like it. In fact I can dodge better and block better with that set up. It just hurts my hands due to injury
And I prefer once again a more rpg like combat. I’d rather take the trade off for a closer to Skyrim feel.

If I had it may way this game would have combat exactly like Skyrim but instead of shouts we have skills but we don’t weave them we just hit with our spells (or swords )in our hands and use “skill” like shouts for extra damage in situations.

Either way HA players are still
Playing the game and doing it themselves the challenge is the Mechs not a bug that causes spazzing character guitar hero combat.

isadoraisacat

nokturnihs wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You are making lots of claims but You are not answering basic questions that needs to be answered if Your claims would be correct.

If light attack rotation is that easy and strong that in real content You could produce decent enough DPS even with just one ability and LA, why would one bar HA setups specifically be so popular? Is everyone suddenly such a big enjoyer of lightning staves and chanelling HA with them?

Why overwhelming majority of people using oakensoul is running with a heavy attack setup? If Your testing is reliable than why aren't there many one bar setups that are not HA based?

If one bar HA are in fact so unquestionably inferior to two bar setups in any given area than why there are certain places where among top 100 parses there is over 90 one bar HA users? Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

I don't see that much popularity in HA builds. When i do content I see about a third of users using HA builds.

And I have 15 CP level characters. 2 are HA builds. 3 are 2bar builds. The rest are 1bar builds. None are LA builds because I'm disabled and can't hit buttons 120x a minute.

My top performing 1bar builds are as follows:
- HA sorc using undaunted unweaver and storm master (regardless of the drivel some people post the nerf to Storm master WILL result in a 20-40% damage nerf for me) - best parse: 60k (parsing is a problem for me. The pain in my hands/body makes it unreliable as I'm not able to stop until the dummy dies and I get worse over time rather than better - this is the problem I have with 2bar rotations.)
-
- DoT Master magplar using oblivions foe and Deadly Strike. Best parse: 44k
- Status Ice Warden using serpents disdain and (formerly plaguebreak) burning spellweave. Best parse: 42k. Lower (36k) when on plaguebreak but with plaguebreak would see 100k bursts when trash mobs would blow up.
- Smashy Necro WW using hexos Ward and dragons appetite. 24k best parse. Built more for solo content.
- Ranged Gankblade Vamp using Venomous smite and other garbage. Haven't parsed in a while but can 1-3 shot most toons using venom injection and lethal arrow in BGs. Less so now due to the unending growth of tank meta.

The rest are healers or tanks. My 1bar tank are more than sufficient and can provide 50-80k damage shields to the party, heal better than most pug healers all on a 1bar.
My other tank doesn't do shields as well but AOE interrupts and major debuffs all the things. Both are capable of vet content.
My 1 bar warden healer is fine. still getting used to her skills but she's as decent as my 2bar templar healer.

As you can see I do -ok- with DPS on a 1bar. My HA Build sorc is the best. I don't use sergeant because of the same reason the SM nerf is gonna kill my DPS - uptime. I don't really enjoy the play style most the time but It's about the ONLY build outside of my tank that trial groups want in trials and half don't want that because it's a HA build.

If ZOS or the community screaming about how bad HA builds are for existing were to propose a way for someone like me to get into even the 80k range the OP mentioned I'd be interested and wouldn't care. Otherwise all the pushing against HA builds is exclusionary of people who physically don't have the same options as normal people. If normal people are using HA builds to get high parses - I'd say GOOD FOR THEM. Play smarter not harder.

Also you make a lot of claims about logs and parse data but haven't put down any evidence. Please do so.

My best parse with my HA character is 30k on a 3 mill and I got 60k on a trial dummy a week ago when I last checked. I too have a hand issue. I have no feeling in 2 of my fingers due to severed nerve from being impaled with steel. I also have carpel tunnel due to working as a machinist and machine operator.

nokturnihs

BlueRaven wrote: »

My only issue with the current HA builds is that they do seem to be laser focused on Sorc lightning builds alone.

I wish there was similar builds for bows, dual wield, etc, and for all classes as well.

The HA nerf to me seems very misguided. The highest dps players are not using HA oak builds. I thought (from that last balancing patch) that those numbers were the problem? But the above average dps builds are now the “real” problem, I guess?

The timing of this seems so strange as they are introducing “world events” which are not really world events, but are actually 4 person vet type dungeons, as a daily. Do they want even less people capable of doing them?

You can do a pretty decent HA build using bow and Sergeant's/Storm master or undaunted infiltrator on a nightblade. It gets tricky with the timing and stacks and If you're like me that's tough but when your SM stacks are up and you're popping crits using shadowy disguise the single target damage is nice and it pairs well to ramp up damage on lethal arrow or other bow skills. Kinda garbage for AOE though. Tested briefly on my NB vamp using the sets above with concealed weapon, shadowy disguise, grim focus sta morph, lethal arrow and venom injection. It was too frantic for me to keep up for long though so i switched it out.

Also did -ok- with a noble duelist and infiltrator using a 2h build on a sorc using crystal weapon to proc infiltrator. Great AOE but it was very subject to stuns and crap because of the windup on 2h heavies. May be better on a different class like DK or warden. I'd try it out if you're interested.

My Ice Warden 1bar uses an ice staff but the build is based around serpents disdain and not HA. It rips pretty well and is super nice to drop all those statuses for 16 seconds+ on bosses. Sad to be losing minor defile from the plaguebreak nerf.

flizomica

A theoretical max of ~100k for HA builds and ~135k for LA builds on the trial dummy is pretty meaningless without context and does not mean that HA builds are underperforming (or overperforming).

• It's far easier to get to high-ish DPS levels with HA builds than LA builds (e.g. the floor for HA builds is a lot higher than the floor for LA builds).
• HA builds perform better in most content for players that aren't super experienced, and may be the preferred build for other content regardless of experience levels (e.g. super easy IRs). They have a simple rotation, infinite sustain, and really excellent survivability.
• Most players never need to hit 135k+ DPS for the content they are interested in doing, and getting a comfy ~50-90k range (variable) would be more than enough.

Therefore, if you are someone who isn't super sweaty and wants to experience all vet non-HM or simply not ultra sweaty content (e.g. scorepushing), HA builds are the logical choice. They're incredibly easy to hit 'good' DPS numbers with, while also being very forgiving in actual content. If you don't actually need to be hitting well over 100k+ DPS (which is going to account for the *overwhelming majority* of the playerbase), I don't see much reason to *not* run a HA build.

Personally, I would like to see LA builds be made more forgiving or rewarding, as well as better build variety for HA builds as it's a little lame to be relegated to the same 2-3 sets plus a lightning staff. I don't think it's good balance for the obvious 'best' build choice across every class/spec for most players to be variations on the same build.

Soarora

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Carries are different and aren’t actually widely accepted as a good thing. They don’t count in guilds as clears and a lot of people buy them because they can do it themselves and don’t want to (like gear farms) or they have a LOT (carries are expensive) of money, probably from trade guilds or crown selling (hopefully not scamming). People who offer carries are in it for the money. Personally, I don’t do official carries. Not gonna spend my time to do content just to give all the gear away for a few million gold. I’ll help people get skins and gear but I’m not gonna sell a carry. Their achievements pretty much only exist to the game and people who don’t know it was a carry (big guilds make sure it’s not by working with carry providers/requesting logs/etc.).

Most people who use HA probably can’t afford carries in the first place. They’re millions of gold each.

My point is, people should be more concerned with that practice as that is Cheating. HA you are still
Doing all the mechanics yourself. Weaving is a brain dead mechanic it’s really not hard. I can do it I just don’t like it. In fact I can dodge better and block better with that set up. It just hurts my hands due to injury
And I prefer once again a more rpg like combat. I’d rather take the trade off for a closer to Skyrim feel.

If I had it may way this game would have combat exactly like Skyrim but instead of shouts we have skills but we don’t weave them we just hit with our spells (or swords )in our hands and use “skill” like shouts for extra damage in situations.

Either way HA players are still
Playing the game and doing it themselves the challenge is the Mechs not a bug that causes spazzing character guitar hero combat.

There’s a lot more difference between HA and traditional than weaving, and in the hands of endgamers, no they are not doing all the mechanics themselves, especially when it comes to the survivability aspect of standing in AoEs that should kill. I don’t like skipping mechanics by burning through things on traditional builds either. It’s hard to find endgame people who actually want to do mechanics… but at least ZOS has punishments for overburning in newer content. I complain about my IR not wholly because “HA easy” but specifically because I didn’t have to heal and debuff as much as I would have for non-HA builds, which affects how /I/ played, making it EASIER than it should have been. Not even saying it was a free trifecta given to me on a silver platter, but that to me I skipped responsibilities I would have needed to have with a traditional group. I didn’t Really do IR, only like 80% of one, if that, but still got the achievement. Not a carry, not a real clear to me. Never can do AS again until oakenHA isn’t the meta in there anymore. There’s zero (0) traditional build friendly AS runs that I have seen in months.

To be more detailed if you’re interested:
- DPS can block through an Olms jump even when in the AoE, something that normally isn’t possible, meaning I didn’t have to heal the group during jumps. This made things a lot easier because I didn’t have to prepare to heal them while not getting hit by Olms or Felms aoes. I have done vAS+2 where I had to heal the group during jumps and it was hard.
-There’s so much lightning damage I didn’t have to do minor vulnerability. Another uptime to not worry about and I replaced my vulnerability skill with a heal for myself… which also made things a LOT easier because if I got caught in an AoE or DoT I could heal myself out easily, so I didn’t have to worry about them either.

So nevermind the DPS and their melty cleave and sustain and survivability and healing (matriarch)… even my own experience was made much easier and I wasn’t even running HA, they were! The new normal for AS abandons several things that make AS difficult and not only for the DPS. I know it’s considered an outlier where HA is meta, but it won’t be an outlier forever. So many oakensorc only runs… not all HA runs are even accessible to anything but the meta setup for HA. I don’t care that YOU can get a trifecta after progging it the same as I do, I care about what endgamers are doing to endgame. And the only way to get them to stop is to cut down the ceiling of the build, which mostly only endgamers are hitting anyway. Nerfing empower isn’t the way to go, nerfing the meta setups are. This is why ZOS did HA nerfs though. It’s because of endgamers using HA and even forcing everyone to use it when they don’t need to and shouldn’t. Not because of people wanting to gatekeep disabled people or people who like HA. Seems like they’re trying to nudge the build down until endgamers go back to traditional builds but still let HAers do content. Just targetting empower wasn’t the way to do it, nerfing storm master makes more sense maybe.

And yes, endgamers can use HA if they want to too, but they keep complaining about how it’s easy and boring and are in fact barring traditional builds from content and I can’t take it anymore.

spartaxoxo

HA builds are good for the game because they increased the number of groups that were being formed for endgame content.

isadoraisacat

spartaxoxo wrote: »

HA builds are good for the game because they increased the number of groups that were being formed for endgame content.

You’d think HA builds would be looked at as a godsend it has brought in so many Skyrim players who other wise didn’t stick around due to the non elder scrolls like combat before this build was really made popular.

spartaxoxo

isadoraisacat wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

HA builds are good for the game because they increased the number of groups that were being formed for endgame content.

You’d think HA builds would be looked at as a godsend it has brought in so many Skyrim players who other wise didn’t stick around due to the non elder scrolls like combat before this build was really made popular.

I don't use Oakensoul in vet content but the players you mention were making groups to take on trials they hadn't taken on before. I saw so many more trials groups that I was actually finally able to get some vet dlc trials after years of not being able to (schedule conflicts) because there was finally PUGs I could join. I was able to beat both VHOF and VSS. I was so happy to see so many groups.

Vet trials weren't just made more accessible for Oakensoul users. They were made more accessible for players like me who couldn't really work with trials guilds to go do trials due to things like inconsistent scheduling and often working nights on the weekends.

nokturnihs

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Carries are different and aren’t actually widely accepted as a good thing. They don’t count in guilds as clears and a lot of people buy them because they can do it themselves and don’t want to (like gear farms) or they have a LOT (carries are expensive) of money, probably from trade guilds or crown selling (hopefully not scamming). People who offer carries are in it for the money. Personally, I don’t do official carries. Not gonna spend my time to do content just to give all the gear away for a few million gold. I’ll help people get skins and gear but I’m not gonna sell a carry. Their achievements pretty much only exist to the game and people who don’t know it was a carry (big guilds make sure it’s not by working with carry providers/requesting logs/etc.).

Most people who use HA probably can’t afford carries in the first place. They’re millions of gold each.

My point is, people should be more concerned with that practice as that is Cheating. HA you are still
Doing all the mechanics yourself. Weaving is a brain dead mechanic it’s really not hard. I can do it I just don’t like it. In fact I can dodge better and block better with that set up. It just hurts my hands due to injury
And I prefer once again a more rpg like combat. I’d rather take the trade off for a closer to Skyrim feel.

If I had it may way this game would have combat exactly like Skyrim but instead of shouts we have skills but we don’t weave them we just hit with our spells (or swords )in our hands and use “skill” like shouts for extra damage in situations.

Either way HA players are still
Playing the game and doing it themselves the challenge is the Mechs not a bug that causes spazzing character guitar hero combat.

There’s a lot more difference between HA and traditional than weaving, and in the hands of endgamers, no they are not doing all the mechanics themselves, especially when it comes to the survivability aspect of standing in AoEs that should kill. I don’t like skipping mechanics by burning through things on traditional builds either. It’s hard to find endgame people who actually want to do mechanics… but at least ZOS has punishments for overburning in newer content. I complain about my IR not wholly because “HA easy” but specifically because I didn’t have to heal and debuff as much as I would have for non-HA builds, which affects how /I/ played, making it EASIER than it should have been. Not even saying it was a free trifecta given to me on a silver platter, but that to me I skipped responsibilities I would have needed to have with a traditional group. I didn’t Really do IR, only like 80% of one, if that, but still got the achievement. Not a carry, not a real clear to me. Never can do AS again until oakenHA isn’t the meta in there anymore. There’s zero (0) traditional build friendly AS runs that I have seen in months.

To be more detailed if you’re interested:
- DPS can block through an Olms jump even when in the AoE, something that normally isn’t possible, meaning I didn’t have to heal the group during jumps. This made things a lot easier because I didn’t have to prepare to heal them while not getting hit by Olms or Felms aoes. I have done vAS+2 where I had to heal the group during jumps and it was hard.
-There’s so much lightning damage I didn’t have to do minor vulnerability. Another uptime to not worry about and I replaced my vulnerability skill with a heal for myself… which also made things a LOT easier because if I got caught in an AoE or DoT I could heal myself out easily, so I didn’t have to worry about them either.

So nevermind the DPS and their melty cleave and sustain and survivability and healing (matriarch)… even my own experience was made much easier and I wasn’t even running HA, they were! The new normal for AS abandons several things that make AS difficult and not only for the DPS. I know it’s considered an outlier where HA is meta, but it won’t be an outlier forever. So many oakensorc only runs… not all HA runs are even accessible to anything but the meta setup for HA. I don’t care that YOU can get a trifecta after progging it the same as I do, I care about what endgamers are doing to endgame. And the only way to get them to stop is to cut down the ceiling of the build, which mostly only endgamers are hitting anyway. Nerfing empower isn’t the way to go, nerfing the meta setups are. This is why ZOS did HA nerfs though. It’s because of endgamers using HA and even forcing everyone to use it when they don’t need to and shouldn’t. Not because of people wanting to gatekeep disabled people or people who like HA. Seems like they’re trying to nudge the build down until endgamers go back to traditional builds but still let HAers do content. Just targetting empower wasn’t the way to do it, nerfing storm master makes more sense maybe.

And yes, endgamers can use HA if they want to too, but they keep complaining about how it’s easy and boring and are in fact barring traditional builds from content and I can’t take it anymore.

If the LA meta sets were getting nerfed at the same time or at the very least being pulled out of PvP then maybe I'd agree. But they're not. Meta isn't HA builds at the moment anyway, just one of several. The same over-performing LA sets that have been over-performing since they arrived are still left untouched while the very limited builds HA/disabled folks have access to are receiving nerfs. If ZOS were introducing new alternatives to HA build sets I might agree with you too. But they aren't. Everything in the 9.0 patch notes scream that ZOS is walking back oaken soul as fast as it can. This has been done before sure but OS also allowed previously struggling disabled players who faced challenges in overland/normal content a chance to experience the stuff locked behind the "Veteran" label. That's before U35 made it all worse for everyone. Give us some other way of holding onto that and I'm sure we'd take it. Until then maybe the sweaty types and gatekeeping community members can just hold onto their still-superior DPS and stop trashing others first real "accessibility" to half the content in ESO?

Soarora

nokturnihs wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Carries are different and aren’t actually widely accepted as a good thing. They don’t count in guilds as clears and a lot of people buy them because they can do it themselves and don’t want to (like gear farms) or they have a LOT (carries are expensive) of money, probably from trade guilds or crown selling (hopefully not scamming). People who offer carries are in it for the money. Personally, I don’t do official carries. Not gonna spend my time to do content just to give all the gear away for a few million gold. I’ll help people get skins and gear but I’m not gonna sell a carry. Their achievements pretty much only exist to the game and people who don’t know it was a carry (big guilds make sure it’s not by working with carry providers/requesting logs/etc.).

Most people who use HA probably can’t afford carries in the first place. They’re millions of gold each.

My point is, people should be more concerned with that practice as that is Cheating. HA you are still
Doing all the mechanics yourself. Weaving is a brain dead mechanic it’s really not hard. I can do it I just don’t like it. In fact I can dodge better and block better with that set up. It just hurts my hands due to injury
And I prefer once again a more rpg like combat. I’d rather take the trade off for a closer to Skyrim feel.

If I had it may way this game would have combat exactly like Skyrim but instead of shouts we have skills but we don’t weave them we just hit with our spells (or swords )in our hands and use “skill” like shouts for extra damage in situations.

Either way HA players are still
Playing the game and doing it themselves the challenge is the Mechs not a bug that causes spazzing character guitar hero combat.

There’s a lot more difference between HA and traditional than weaving, and in the hands of endgamers, no they are not doing all the mechanics themselves, especially when it comes to the survivability aspect of standing in AoEs that should kill. I don’t like skipping mechanics by burning through things on traditional builds either. It’s hard to find endgame people who actually want to do mechanics… but at least ZOS has punishments for overburning in newer content. I complain about my IR not wholly because “HA easy” but specifically because I didn’t have to heal and debuff as much as I would have for non-HA builds, which affects how /I/ played, making it EASIER than it should have been. Not even saying it was a free trifecta given to me on a silver platter, but that to me I skipped responsibilities I would have needed to have with a traditional group. I didn’t Really do IR, only like 80% of one, if that, but still got the achievement. Not a carry, not a real clear to me. Never can do AS again until oakenHA isn’t the meta in there anymore. There’s zero (0) traditional build friendly AS runs that I have seen in months.

To be more detailed if you’re interested:
- DPS can block through an Olms jump even when in the AoE, something that normally isn’t possible, meaning I didn’t have to heal the group during jumps. This made things a lot easier because I didn’t have to prepare to heal them while not getting hit by Olms or Felms aoes. I have done vAS+2 where I had to heal the group during jumps and it was hard.
-There’s so much lightning damage I didn’t have to do minor vulnerability. Another uptime to not worry about and I replaced my vulnerability skill with a heal for myself… which also made things a LOT easier because if I got caught in an AoE or DoT I could heal myself out easily, so I didn’t have to worry about them either.

So nevermind the DPS and their melty cleave and sustain and survivability and healing (matriarch)… even my own experience was made much easier and I wasn’t even running HA, they were! The new normal for AS abandons several things that make AS difficult and not only for the DPS. I know it’s considered an outlier where HA is meta, but it won’t be an outlier forever. So many oakensorc only runs… not all HA runs are even accessible to anything but the meta setup for HA. I don’t care that YOU can get a trifecta after progging it the same as I do, I care about what endgamers are doing to endgame. And the only way to get them to stop is to cut down the ceiling of the build, which mostly only endgamers are hitting anyway. Nerfing empower isn’t the way to go, nerfing the meta setups are. This is why ZOS did HA nerfs though. It’s because of endgamers using HA and even forcing everyone to use it when they don’t need to and shouldn’t. Not because of people wanting to gatekeep disabled people or people who like HA. Seems like they’re trying to nudge the build down until endgamers go back to traditional builds but still let HAers do content. Just targetting empower wasn’t the way to do it, nerfing storm master makes more sense maybe.

And yes, endgamers can use HA if they want to too, but they keep complaining about how it’s easy and boring and are in fact barring traditional builds from content and I can’t take it anymore.

If the LA meta sets were getting nerfed at the same time or at the very least being pulled out of PvP then maybe I'd agree. But they're not. Meta isn't HA builds at the moment anyway, just one of several. The same over-performing LA sets that have been over-performing since they arrived are still left untouched while the very limited builds HA/disabled folks have access to are receiving nerfs. If ZOS were introducing new alternatives to HA build sets I might agree with you too. But they aren't. Everything in the 9.0 patch notes scream that ZOS is walking back oaken soul as fast as it can. This has been done before sure but OS also allowed previously struggling disabled players who faced challenges in overland/normal content a chance to experience the stuff locked behind the "Veteran" label. That's before U35 made it all worse for everyone. Give us some other way of holding onto that and I'm sure we'd take it. Until then maybe the sweaty types and gatekeeping community members can just hold onto their still-superior DPS and stop trashing others first real "accessibility" to half the content in ESO?

If you read my first post you’d know that I support the idea of other HA builds even really working without requiring the same 2 sets (seargent + storm caller I think). I made a survey about HA and most responses I got were that people were not using these sets. So nerfing those sets would nerf the top without hurting all builds. Instead, I think a new mythic is in order where HAs gain a flat damage increase or gain scaling like a spammable would (not the LAs in lightning, full HAs), barswap is allowed, and HA takes resource. People can still do one-bar HA then if they’d like but there’s also the possibility of a 2-bar or even just throwing something on the backbar just in case, along with pulling back lightning to be more in line without removing the unique channel (which can be used with sets like pillar or relequen). Plus deals with the “its too survivable” and infinite sustain and 100% buff uptimes. And it’d be a 1-pc so people can use whatever 5pcs they want. This would make HA much more similar to a traditional build except for HA “spammable”/slower rotation and hopefully would be enough to shake endgamers* off HA and take them back to traditional builds while keeping the functionality of a HA build. Oakensoul was for 1-bar non-HA builds originally anyways, HA should get its own mythic.

The “sweaty types” ARE NOT holding onto their “still-superior DPS”, that’s the problem. They’re taking HA, sweatifying it, in several cases forcing everyone around them to do HA too, and then complaining about how it’s easy and boring. Either people are going to get so bored they’ll go back to their regular builds or this is going to keep getting worse until you can’t do dungeons or trials anymore without being specifically a sorcerer with 2 pets and oakensoul and seargent + storm caller. What the endgame is becoming benefits NO ONE except for people who run the meta build for HA, which again, most people don’t seem to.

*When I say endgamers I mean people who can run traditional builds and have hardmodes and trifectas at current and are continuing to run content at the vet or above level, and subscribe to the meta if not create it themselves.

isadoraisacat

Soarora wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Carries are different and aren’t actually widely accepted as a good thing. They don’t count in guilds as clears and a lot of people buy them because they can do it themselves and don’t want to (like gear farms) or they have a LOT (carries are expensive) of money, probably from trade guilds or crown selling (hopefully not scamming). People who offer carries are in it for the money. Personally, I don’t do official carries. Not gonna spend my time to do content just to give all the gear away for a few million gold. I’ll help people get skins and gear but I’m not gonna sell a carry. Their achievements pretty much only exist to the game and people who don’t know it was a carry (big guilds make sure it’s not by working with carry providers/requesting logs/etc.).

Most people who use HA probably can’t afford carries in the first place. They’re millions of gold each.

My point is, people should be more concerned with that practice as that is Cheating. HA you are still
Doing all the mechanics yourself. Weaving is a brain dead mechanic it’s really not hard. I can do it I just don’t like it. In fact I can dodge better and block better with that set up. It just hurts my hands due to injury
And I prefer once again a more rpg like combat. I’d rather take the trade off for a closer to Skyrim feel.

If I had it may way this game would have combat exactly like Skyrim but instead of shouts we have skills but we don’t weave them we just hit with our spells (or swords )in our hands and use “skill” like shouts for extra damage in situations.

Either way HA players are still
Playing the game and doing it themselves the challenge is the Mechs not a bug that causes spazzing character guitar hero combat.

There’s a lot more difference between HA and traditional than weaving, and in the hands of endgamers, no they are not doing all the mechanics themselves, especially when it comes to the survivability aspect of standing in AoEs that should kill. I don’t like skipping mechanics by burning through things on traditional builds either. It’s hard to find endgame people who actually want to do mechanics… but at least ZOS has punishments for overburning in newer content. I complain about my IR not wholly because “HA easy” but specifically because I didn’t have to heal and debuff as much as I would have for non-HA builds, which affects how /I/ played, making it EASIER than it should have been. Not even saying it was a free trifecta given to me on a silver platter, but that to me I skipped responsibilities I would have needed to have with a traditional group. I didn’t Really do IR, only like 80% of one, if that, but still got the achievement. Not a carry, not a real clear to me. Never can do AS again until oakenHA isn’t the meta in there anymore. There’s zero (0) traditional build friendly AS runs that I have seen in months.

To be more detailed if you’re interested:
- DPS can block through an Olms jump even when in the AoE, something that normally isn’t possible, meaning I didn’t have to heal the group during jumps. This made things a lot easier because I didn’t have to prepare to heal them while not getting hit by Olms or Felms aoes. I have done vAS+2 where I had to heal the group during jumps and it was hard.
-There’s so much lightning damage I didn’t have to do minor vulnerability. Another uptime to not worry about and I replaced my vulnerability skill with a heal for myself… which also made things a LOT easier because if I got caught in an AoE or DoT I could heal myself out easily, so I didn’t have to worry about them either.

So nevermind the DPS and their melty cleave and sustain and survivability and healing (matriarch)… even my own experience was made much easier and I wasn’t even running HA, they were! The new normal for AS abandons several things that make AS difficult and not only for the DPS. I know it’s considered an outlier where HA is meta, but it won’t be an outlier forever. So many oakensorc only runs… not all HA runs are even accessible to anything but the meta setup for HA. I don’t care that YOU can get a trifecta after progging it the same as I do, I care about what endgamers are doing to endgame. And the only way to get them to stop is to cut down the ceiling of the build, which mostly only endgamers are hitting anyway. Nerfing empower isn’t the way to go, nerfing the meta setups are. This is why ZOS did HA nerfs though. It’s because of endgamers using HA and even forcing everyone to use it when they don’t need to and shouldn’t. Not because of people wanting to gatekeep disabled people or people who like HA. Seems like they’re trying to nudge the build down until endgamers go back to traditional builds but still let HAers do content. Just targetting empower wasn’t the way to do it, nerfing storm master makes more sense maybe.

And yes, endgamers can use HA if they want to too, but they keep complaining about how it’s easy and boring and are in fact barring traditional builds from content and I can’t take it anymore.

If the LA meta sets were getting nerfed at the same time or at the very least being pulled out of PvP then maybe I'd agree. But they're not. Meta isn't HA builds at the moment anyway, just one of several. The same over-performing LA sets that have been over-performing since they arrived are still left untouched while the very limited builds HA/disabled folks have access to are receiving nerfs. If ZOS were introducing new alternatives to HA build sets I might agree with you too. But they aren't. Everything in the 9.0 patch notes scream that ZOS is walking back oaken soul as fast as it can. This has been done before sure but OS also allowed previously struggling disabled players who faced challenges in overland/normal content a chance to experience the stuff locked behind the "Veteran" label. That's before U35 made it all worse for everyone. Give us some other way of holding onto that and I'm sure we'd take it. Until then maybe the sweaty types and gatekeeping community members can just hold onto their still-superior DPS and stop trashing others first real "accessibility" to half the content in ESO?

If you read my first post you’d know that I support the idea of other HA builds even really working without requiring the same 2 sets (seargent + storm caller I think). I made a survey about HA and most responses I got were that people were not using these sets. So nerfing those sets would nerf the top without hurting all builds. Instead, I think a new mythic is in order where HAs gain a flat damage increase or gain scaling like a spammable would (not the LAs in lightning, full HAs), barswap is allowed, and HA takes resource. People can still do one-bar HA then if they’d like but there’s also the possibility of a 2-bar or even just throwing something on the backbar just in case, along with pulling back lightning to be more in line without removing the unique channel (which can be used with sets like pillar or relequen). Plus deals with the “its too survivable” and infinite sustain and 100% buff uptimes. And it’d be a 1-pc so people can use whatever 5pcs they want. This would make HA much more similar to a traditional build except for HA “spammable”/slower rotation and hopefully would be enough to shake endgamers* off HA and take them back to traditional builds while keeping the functionality of a HA build. Oakensoul was for 1-bar non-HA builds originally anyways, HA should get its own mythic.

The “sweaty types” ARE NOT holding onto their “still-superior DPS”, that’s the problem. They’re taking HA, sweatifying it, in several cases forcing everyone around them to do HA too, and then complaining about how it’s easy and boring. Either people are going to get so bored they’ll go back to their regular builds or this is going to keep getting worse until you can’t do dungeons or trials anymore without being specifically a sorcerer with 2 pets and oakensoul and seargent + storm caller. What the endgame is becoming benefits NO ONE except for people who run the meta build for HA, which again, most people don’t seem to.

*When I say endgamers I mean people who can run traditional builds and have hardmodes and trifectas at current and are continuing to run content at the vet or above level, and subscribe to the meta if not create it themselves.

Who gives a flying hoot how try hard end gamers play ? So what even if they use heavy attack builds to finished end game content they have already proved they can weave we know they can do it. Maybe it’s more fun for them or they are tired of doing the finger waltz ? Who cares what others do. That is the issue here too many people butting in to others business. I couldn’t give a rats batooty how someone else plays and they shouldn’t care how I play. This is a elder scrolls spin off game not an esport.

Liguar

Soarora wrote: »

The “sweaty types” ARE NOT holding onto their “still-superior DPS”, that’s the problem. They’re taking HA, sweatifying it, in several cases forcing everyone around them to do HA too, and then complaining about how it’s easy and boring. Either people are going to get so bored they’ll go back to their regular builds or this is going to keep getting worse until you can’t do dungeons or trials anymore without being specifically a sorcerer with 2 pets and oakensoul and seargent + storm caller. What the endgame is becoming benefits NO ONE except for people who run the meta build for HA, which again, most people don’t seem to.

*When I say endgamers I mean people who can run traditional builds and have hardmodes and trifectas at current and are continuing to run content at the vet or above level, and subscribe to the meta if not create it themselves.

I don't have a bone to pick with you specifically, I quote this section as I think it does represent the problem. You say you don't like that the sweaties are forcing people to play how they want, but that's what the people who want HA nerfs are doing to those that like HA builds. It's this cycle of people telling others the right way to play, it's annoying and I imagine most people don't like it.