Rolling Back the HA Nerfs: A More Balanced Solution for All Players

Ragnarok0130

nokturnihs wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You are making lots of claims but You are not answering basic questions that needs to be answered if Your claims would be correct.

If light attack rotation is that easy and strong that in real content You could produce decent enough DPS even with just one ability and LA, why would one bar HA setups specifically be so popular? Is everyone suddenly such a big enjoyer of lightning staves and chanelling HA with them?

Why overwhelming majority of people using oakensoul is running with a heavy attack setup? If Your testing is reliable than why aren't there many one bar setups that are not HA based?

If one bar HA are in fact so unquestionably inferior to two bar setups in any given area than why there are certain places where among top 100 parses there is over 90 one bar HA users? Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

I don't see that much popularity in HA builds. When i do content I see about a third of users using HA builds.

And I have 15 CP level characters. 2 are HA builds. 3 are 2bar builds. The rest are 1bar builds. None are LA builds because I'm disabled and can't hit buttons 120x a minute.

My top performing 1bar builds are as follows:
- HA sorc using undaunted unweaver and storm master (regardless of the drivel some people post the nerf to Storm master WILL result in a 20-40% damage nerf for me) - best parse: 60k (parsing is a problem for me. The pain in my hands/body makes it unreliable as I'm not able to stop until the dummy dies and I get worse over time rather than better - this is the problem I have with 2bar rotations.)
-

@nokturnihs So with all of the back and forth lately about HA builds and seeing a huge number of HA sorcs in Craglorn I created a HA Oaken Sorc using Nefas' Oakensorc build on my Sorc Healer last Saturday to see how easy this setup is and to critique it from a position of knowledge. Caveat I'm a healer main have healed in MMOs for a deacade but never played DPS - I play medic in Battlefield and support in Overwatch - basically it's what I like to do so I have 7 healers in ESO (soon the be 8 when the Arcanist comes out) and have never parsed a day in my life in ESO as I never play DPS.

On my first ever parse on a trial dummy not even knowing the rotation in mostly purple Storm Masters and Sergent's Mail I parsed 72K. That's rather broken for somebody that doesn't even know how to DPS who just refreshed his skills on cool down in no particular order and HA attacked when things are counting down. I suspect that if I dial in my rotation and practice the numbers will get much juicier as the devs say. I then ran a random normal dungeon for further testing and did over 70% of the groups total DPS.

Regarding your hand pain I feel you, I have an auto-immune arthritis so I've swapped from MKB over to controller and that is what this parse was conducted on. If you haven't tried it, using a controller may help your hand pain.

Soarora

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Who gives a flying hoot how try hard end gamers play ? So what even if they use heavy attack builds to finished end game content they have already proved they can weave we know they can do it. Maybe it’s more fun for them or they are tired of doing the finger waltz ? Who cares what others do. That is the issue here too many people butting in to others business. I couldn’t give a rats batooty how someone else plays and they shouldn’t care how I play. This is a elder scrolls spin off game not an esport.

…Me? We are people too. If endgamers were just using ha builds sometimes then fine but THEY’RE THE ONES ALSO complaining about how it’s so easy! They’re making it everyone’s business. The negativity isn’t good but they’ve put themselves in that situation and are dragging everyone else down with them. If I could simply not listen to it I would but it’s not that simple.

Liguar wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

The “sweaty types” ARE NOT holding onto their “still-superior DPS”, that’s the problem. They’re taking HA, sweatifying it, in several cases forcing everyone around them to do HA too, and then complaining about how it’s easy and boring. Either people are going to get so bored they’ll go back to their regular builds or this is going to keep getting worse until you can’t do dungeons or trials anymore without being specifically a sorcerer with 2 pets and oakensoul and seargent + storm caller. What the endgame is becoming benefits NO ONE except for people who run the meta build for HA, which again, most people don’t seem to.

*When I say endgamers I mean people who can run traditional builds and have hardmodes and trifectas at current and are continuing to run content at the vet or above level, and subscribe to the meta if not create it themselves.

I don't have a bone to pick with you specifically, I quote this section as I think it does represent the problem. You say you don't like that the sweaties are forcing people to play how they want, but that's what the people who want HA nerfs are doing to those that like HA builds. It's this cycle of people telling others the right way to play, it's annoying and I imagine most people don't like it.

I understand your point but not necessarily. Several people do align with what you say but I don’t want HA obliterated, it’s clear to me now many people don’t even use the meta build. They should be supported. The top can be nerfed without hurting everyone else. And this is the worst case of being forced to play one way I’ve ever seen. For open runs anywhere from a random dungeon to a trial hardmode, only open to heavy attack sorcerer with oakensoul and 2 of the meta heavy attack sets and 2 pets with lightning staff. This is not accessible to anyone except people who specifically play that build. Open runs used to welcome anyone. Any class. HA or traditional. No specific gear outside of the support DPS in trials. Not all the time anymore. And it’s getting worse. The only way I see this getting better is to change HA. Either dealing with oakensoul + HA or messing with the specific build endgamers use for HA. Nerfing empower isn’t the way to go. I’m sure there’s a happy outcome out there where HA is decent but endgamers prefer traditional builds still and that’s what it seems zos is trying to get to.

And to be super clear I’ll say it one more time:
Open runs are becoming one singular build ONLY.
Any traditional DPS without oakenHA sorc is excluded. Any HAer that runs a different class or different build or 2 bars are excluded. Neither of us are winning here.

Billium813

BlueRaven wrote: »

My only issue with the current HA builds is that they do seem to be laser focused on Sorc lightning builds alone.

I wish there was similar builds for bows, dual wield, etc, and for all classes as well.

The HA nerf to me seems very misguided. The highest dps players are not using HA oak builds. I thought (from that last balancing patch) that those numbers were the problem? But the above average dps builds are now the “real” problem, I guess?

The timing of this seems so strange as they are introducing “world events” which are not really world events, but are actually 4 person vet type dungeons, as a daily. Do they want even less people capable of doing them?

Totally agree.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7857868/#Comment_7857868

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks

Galeriano

BlueRaven wrote: »

My only issue with the current HA builds is that they do seem to be laser focused on Sorc lightning builds alone.

I wish there was similar builds for bows, dual wield, etc, and for all classes as well.

The HA nerf to me seems very misguided. The highest dps players are not using HA oak builds. I thought (from that last balancing patch) that those numbers were the problem? But the above average dps builds are now the “real” problem, I guess?

The timing of this seems so strange as they are introducing “world events” which are not really world events, but are actually 4 person vet type dungeons, as a daily. Do they want even less people capable of doing them?

Yeah, fact that lightning staves are so far ahead of every other weapon when in comes to HA setups sucks. ZoS could for example buff empower to like 120% and make every set like sergant or storm master when used with lightning or resto stave to work only with last HA tick. This way there would be way more versatlity of builds and weapon choices for HA setups and their numbers would still remain decent.

HA nerf seems pretty logical considering that devs said HA setups are too close to other options for how simlfilied they are. Devs simply don't want for way easier setup to come too close to setup that is way harder to play especially in end game content. Fact that standard two bar setups also recived nerfs because of how high numbers were on them doesn't mean it's the only thing that wasn't balanced in devs eyes.

As for timing well if devs have some balance idea it needs to happen eventually and they have only 4 chances per year to do it since they add more important balance changes only with major patches. I wouldn't be overdramatic. Nerf itself is not that impactfull that it would suddenly made doable content impossible to complete.

BlueRaven

Galeriano wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

My only issue with the current HA builds is that they do seem to be laser focused on Sorc lightning builds alone.

I wish there was similar builds for bows, dual wield, etc, and for all classes as well.

The HA nerf to me seems very misguided. The highest dps players are not using HA oak builds. I thought (from that last balancing patch) that those numbers were the problem? But the above average dps builds are now the “real” problem, I guess?

The timing of this seems so strange as they are introducing “world events” which are not really world events, but are actually 4 person vet type dungeons, as a daily. Do they want even less people capable of doing them?

Yeah, fact that lightning staves are so far ahead of every other weapon when in comes to HA setups sucks. ZoS could for example buff empower to like 120% and make every set like sergant or storm master when used with lightning or resto stave to work only with last HA tick. This way there would be way more versatlity of builds and weapon choices for HA setups and their numbers would still remain decent.

HA nerf seems pretty logical considering that devs said HA setups are too close to other options for how simlfilied they are. Devs simply don't want for way easier setup to come too close to setup that is way harder to play especially in end game content. Fact that standard two bar setups also recived nerfs because of how high numbers were on them doesn't mean it's the only thing that wasn't balanced in devs eyes.

As for timing well if devs have some balance idea it needs to happen eventually and they have only 4 chances per year to do it since they add more important balance changes only with major patches. I wouldn't be overdramatic. Nerf itself is not that impactfull that it would suddenly made doable content impossible to complete.

And here I thought in a forum filled with “fake dps” complaints, having a way for lower end dps players to improve would be welcomed. But apparently being a “second place dps” is too good for those players. They can’t just be second place, they need to be a far, far distant second place it seems.

You have to keep in mind not everybody doing this build is pulling 70-80k. I would say most players with this build are maybe pulling half that.
It’s not enough to have the oak ring, and run enough dungeons to get all of the gear pieces, you have to also have a leveled sorc, enough skill points, the right traits, the right enchants, and the right race, to hit those heights.
And most “casual” players may not have all of that going for them.
We keep talking about how eso “experts” who know this game thoroughly with high end computers and excellent internet connections, showing off these great numbers with these builds. They have exceptional reflexes and know how to work the times to the exact half second. And all of them agree, however begrudgingly, that these builds are not top end even in the hands of an expert.
But what are the numbers like for the average player?

This is a nerf aimed squarely at the average player, people who think doing a solo arena on normal is beyond their capabilities. That’s who is being affected by this nerf.

The YouTubers who make videos about how these are “too high” or “they are good enough after the nerf” are all personally running two bar builds in trials. None of those builds are actually threatened into obscurity by the presence of the HA build.

(Btw are two bar builds over performing? Where are the videos about those builds? Even in that update aimed at those numbers, were there any videos agreeing with the nerf? It’s easy to agree with zos on a nerf when it does not personally affect you…)

And meanwhile now we are telling tge average players to take a nerf. Once again the gap between the high end and everyone else goes wider.
Why? So that high end players can make posts complaining how their numbers are 80% of the damage in dungeons?

I also take issue with the concept that this build is “simple”, the fact that so few players can pull off those high end dual bar builds leads me to believe that those are too overly complex. Perhaps if the two bar builds were themselves “simplified” it would be better for the game.

jaws343

BlueRaven wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

My only issue with the current HA builds is that they do seem to be laser focused on Sorc lightning builds alone.

I wish there was similar builds for bows, dual wield, etc, and for all classes as well.

The HA nerf to me seems very misguided. The highest dps players are not using HA oak builds. I thought (from that last balancing patch) that those numbers were the problem? But the above average dps builds are now the “real” problem, I guess?

The timing of this seems so strange as they are introducing “world events” which are not really world events, but are actually 4 person vet type dungeons, as a daily. Do they want even less people capable of doing them?

Yeah, fact that lightning staves are so far ahead of every other weapon when in comes to HA setups sucks. ZoS could for example buff empower to like 120% and make every set like sergant or storm master when used with lightning or resto stave to work only with last HA tick. This way there would be way more versatlity of builds and weapon choices for HA setups and their numbers would still remain decent.

HA nerf seems pretty logical considering that devs said HA setups are too close to other options for how simlfilied they are. Devs simply don't want for way easier setup to come too close to setup that is way harder to play especially in end game content. Fact that standard two bar setups also recived nerfs because of how high numbers were on them doesn't mean it's the only thing that wasn't balanced in devs eyes.

As for timing well if devs have some balance idea it needs to happen eventually and they have only 4 chances per year to do it since they add more important balance changes only with major patches. I wouldn't be overdramatic. Nerf itself is not that impactfull that it would suddenly made doable content impossible to complete.

And here I thought in a forum filled with “fake dps” complaints, having a way for lower end dps players to improve would be welcomed. But apparently being a “second place dps” is too good for those players. They can’t just be second place, they need to be a far, far distant second place it seems.

You have to keep in mind not everybody doing this build is pulling 70-80k. I would say most players with this build are maybe pulling half that.
It’s not enough to have the oak ring, and run enough dungeons to get all of the gear pieces, you have to also have a leveled sorc, enough skill points, the right traits, the right enchants, and the right race, to hit those heights.
And most “casual” players may not have all of that going for them.
We keep talking about how eso “experts” who know this game thoroughly with high end computers and excellent internet connections, showing off these great numbers with these builds. They have exceptional reflexes and know how to work the times to the exact half second. And all of them agree, however begrudgingly, that these builds are not top end even in the hands of an expert.
But what are the numbers like for the average player?

This is a nerf aimed squarely at the average player, people who think doing a solo arena on normal is beyond their capabilities. That’s who is being affected by this nerf.

The YouTubers who make videos about how these are “too high” or “they are good enough after the nerf” are all personally running two bar builds in trials. None of those builds are actually threatened into obscurity by the presence of the HA build.

(Btw are two bar builds over performing? Where are the videos about those builds? Even in that update aimed at those numbers, were there any videos agreeing with the nerf? It’s easy to agree with zos on a nerf when it does not personally affect you…)

And meanwhile now we are telling tge average players to take a nerf. Once again the gap between the high end and everyone else goes wider.
Why? So that high end players can make posts complaining how their numbers are 80% of the damage in dungeons?

I also take issue with the concept that this build is “simple”, the fact that so few players can pull off those high end dual bar builds leads me to believe that those are too overly complex. Perhaps if the two bar builds were themselves “simplified” it would be better for the game.

I have to take issue with the bolded part. I play on xbox. My best parse, EVER, on a light attack rotation is like 70K on a meta build. I hit 80K on an oakensorc build by just holding the xbox heavy attack trigger. And 97K actually doing the rotation.

You don't need reflexes, or high end computers. You just need to read a number counting down on your skill timers and press the associated button when the timer runs out. All while never letting go of the heavy attack button. Basically, hold the heavy attack trigger and press a button ever 4 seconds or so. Or, just hold the heavy attack and do 80K.

carlos424

Galeriano wrote: »

You are making lots of claims but You are not answering basic questions that needs to be answered if Your claims would be correct.

If light attack rotation is that easy and strong that in real content You could produce decent enough DPS even with just one ability and LA, why would one bar HA setups specifically be so popular? Is everyone suddenly such a big enjoyer of lightning staves and chanelling HA with them?

Why overwhelming majority of people using oakensoul is running with a heavy attack setup? If Your testing is reliable than why aren't there many one bar setups that are not HA based?

If one bar HA are in fact so unquestionably inferior to two bar setups in any given area than why there are certain places where among top 100 parses there is over 90 one bar HA users? Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

It’s because of the destruction staff tri-focus passive which gives fully charged lightning staff heavy attacks 100% damage to all enemies in the area. That in a nutshell is the big advantage, and why they do so well in logs, but not so much on the parse dummy. The more enemies in the area the better they do. To me, all zos had to do is change the passive to, say, 50% splash damage. But I’m sure they looked at that, and have their reasons for not changing it.

isadoraisacat

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Who gives a flying hoot how try hard end gamers play ? So what even if they use heavy attack builds to finished end game content they have already proved they can weave we know they can do it. Maybe it’s more fun for them or they are tired of doing the finger waltz ? Who cares what others do. That is the issue here too many people butting in to others business. I couldn’t give a rats batooty how someone else plays and they shouldn’t care how I play. This is a elder scrolls spin off game not an esport.

…Me? We are people too. If endgamers were just using ha builds sometimes then fine but THEY’RE THE ONES ALSO complaining about how it’s so easy! They’re making it everyone’s business. The negativity isn’t good but they’ve put themselves in that situation and are dragging everyone else down with them. If I could simply not listen to it I would but it’s not that simple.

Liguar wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

The “sweaty types” ARE NOT holding onto their “still-superior DPS”, that’s the problem. They’re taking HA, sweatifying it, in several cases forcing everyone around them to do HA too, and then complaining about how it’s easy and boring. Either people are going to get so bored they’ll go back to their regular builds or this is going to keep getting worse until you can’t do dungeons or trials anymore without being specifically a sorcerer with 2 pets and oakensoul and seargent + storm caller. What the endgame is becoming benefits NO ONE except for people who run the meta build for HA, which again, most people don’t seem to.

*When I say endgamers I mean people who can run traditional builds and have hardmodes and trifectas at current and are continuing to run content at the vet or above level, and subscribe to the meta if not create it themselves.

I don't have a bone to pick with you specifically, I quote this section as I think it does represent the problem. You say you don't like that the sweaties are forcing people to play how they want, but that's what the people who want HA nerfs are doing to those that like HA builds. It's this cycle of people telling others the right way to play, it's annoying and I imagine most people don't like it.

I understand your point but not necessarily. Several people do align with what you say but I don’t want HA obliterated, it’s clear to me now many people don’t even use the meta build. They should be supported. The top can be nerfed without hurting everyone else. And this is the worst case of being forced to play one way I’ve ever seen. For open runs anywhere from a random dungeon to a trial hardmode, only open to heavy attack sorcerer with oakensoul and 2 of the meta heavy attack sets and 2 pets with lightning staff. This is not accessible to anyone except people who specifically play that build. Open runs used to welcome anyone. Any class. HA or traditional. No specific gear outside of the support DPS in trials. Not all the time anymore. And it’s getting worse. The only way I see this getting better is to change HA. Either dealing with oakensoul + HA or messing with the specific build endgamers use for HA. Nerfing empower isn’t the way to go. I’m sure there’s a happy outcome out there where HA is decent but endgamers prefer traditional builds still and that’s what it seems zos is trying to get to.

And to be super clear I’ll say it one more time:
Open runs are becoming one singular build ONLY.
Any traditional DPS without oakenHA sorc is excluded. Any HAer that runs a different class or different build or 2 bars are excluded. Neither of us are winning here.

I think the starting problem is that people consider a weaving bug to be “traditional” in the first place. We need to start there.

nokturnihs

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You are making lots of claims but You are not answering basic questions that needs to be answered if Your claims would be correct.

If light attack rotation is that easy and strong that in real content You could produce decent enough DPS even with just one ability and LA, why would one bar HA setups specifically be so popular? Is everyone suddenly such a big enjoyer of lightning staves and chanelling HA with them?

Why overwhelming majority of people using oakensoul is running with a heavy attack setup? If Your testing is reliable than why aren't there many one bar setups that are not HA based?

If one bar HA are in fact so unquestionably inferior to two bar setups in any given area than why there are certain places where among top 100 parses there is over 90 one bar HA users? Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

I don't see that much popularity in HA builds. When i do content I see about a third of users using HA builds.

And I have 15 CP level characters. 2 are HA builds. 3 are 2bar builds. The rest are 1bar builds. None are LA builds because I'm disabled and can't hit buttons 120x a minute.

My top performing 1bar builds are as follows:
- HA sorc using undaunted unweaver and storm master (regardless of the drivel some people post the nerf to Storm master WILL result in a 20-40% damage nerf for me) - best parse: 60k (parsing is a problem for me. The pain in my hands/body makes it unreliable as I'm not able to stop until the dummy dies and I get worse over time rather than better - this is the problem I have with 2bar rotations.)
-

@nokturnihs So with all of the back and forth lately about HA builds and seeing a huge number of HA sorcs in Craglorn I created a HA Oaken Sorc using Nefas' Oakensorc build on my Sorc Healer last Saturday to see how easy this setup is and to critique it from a position of knowledge. Caveat I'm a healer main have healed in MMOs for a deacade but never played DPS - I play medic in Battlefield and support in Overwatch - basically it's what I like to do so I have 7 healers in ESO (soon the be 8 when the Arcanist comes out) and have never parsed a day in my life in ESO as I never play DPS.

On my first ever parse on a trial dummy not even knowing the rotation in mostly purple Storm Masters and Sergent's Mail I parsed 72K. That's rather broken for somebody that doesn't even know how to DPS who just refreshed his skills on cool down in no particular order and HA attacked when things are counting down. I suspect that if I dial in my rotation and practice the numbers will get much juicier as the devs say. I then ran a random normal dungeon for further testing and did over 70% of the groups total DPS.

Regarding your hand pain I feel you, I have an auto-immune arthritis so I've swapped from MKB over to controller and that is what this parse was conducted on. If you haven't tried it, using a controller may help your hand pain.

I hear you and play on a controller too, have for a long time for the same reasons. That said i didn't get anywhere near that. I'm glad you did and perhaps the hand issues are a difference. I see burst spikes in DPS just like any class due to the cleave thing but single target my peak is much lower than your tests. That said parsing isn't really playing, just a rough number to used to compare better/worse when you make changes and bragging rights or an "entry requirement" some portions of the community impose to allow you to join their (whatever) run.

I've run with a lot of old farts with hands similar to mine and I've run with guild mates who are young and capable of doing the HA and LA builds far more effectively than me. When I manage to out-DPS those guild mates it's either due to their choice to play more casually or experimenting or whatever. I realize people with greater skill and capabilities can use HA builds to far greater results than me. That's kind of irrelevant though. That's ALWAYS gonna be the case and nerfing the HA build style is needlessly harming those using it because it's the only thing getting them in the range to do more challenging content. If you put the same two players in the exact same test scenarios, the one being uninhibited by physical challenges and the other having more issues, the numbers would still be starkly out of balance. You could probably give those skilled players -JUST- weapons (no sets etc) and they're still going to parse higher than people using HA builds to get into that content. And it's still well beneath the cap of the plethora of other sets/builds normal folks have access to without having a very frustrating experience.

I don't think anyone is really denying the HA is capable of dealing damage. But your parse is still well below parses on LA builds and other set combinations. How many 130k+ parse build videos/guides are there on LA sets. That's almost twice what you parsed and you parsed higher than me.

The argument is that the HA nerf is unnecessary and hurting one part of the community more than another and the push for said nerf is coming from the portions of the community that will ALWAYS outperform the other.

If the proposed changes were another U35 scenario where everyone gets the hate ok. Pretty much everyone across the board lost at least 10% of their damage capabilities and some lost a lot more.

The other thing to take into consideration is the nerf is also removing it's PvP capabilities. Not saying HA builds are great in PvP of any kind unless you're running HA packs and coordinating targets but it still was something that allowed people who will NEVER be good at BGs, etc to actually have a chance at getting their daily BGs done. So it's a 10% nerf overall but a 100% nerf on storm master in PvP. The only other set currently on the table to receive the same treatment is plaguebreak but that's going the opposite route and is more about stopping people from grinding low-level content quickly to benefit the ZOS monetization model than anything else. None of the meta DPS sets sourced from PvE content are getting disabled in PvP content. One PvP set is getting a pretty hard nerf but that particular set in combination with some specific classes is clearly outperforming every other set in the game for PvP.

So why nerf it? It's still well under other meta set numbers. It wasn't great in PvP, and the sweaty folks using it are doing it for casual play not because they can reach the same numbers as their 30% more lethal normal builds... It's just raising that drawbridge again that provided some kind of enjoyable access to content that's not a carry service or a truly miserable experience.

Billium813

carlos424 wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You are making lots of claims but You are not answering basic questions that needs to be answered if Your claims would be correct.

If light attack rotation is that easy and strong that in real content You could produce decent enough DPS even with just one ability and LA, why would one bar HA setups specifically be so popular? Is everyone suddenly such a big enjoyer of lightning staves and chanelling HA with them?

Why overwhelming majority of people using oakensoul is running with a heavy attack setup? If Your testing is reliable than why aren't there many one bar setups that are not HA based?

If one bar HA are in fact so unquestionably inferior to two bar setups in any given area than why there are certain places where among top 100 parses there is over 90 one bar HA users? Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

It’s because of the destruction staff tri-focus passive which gives fully charged lightning staff heavy attacks 100% damage to all enemies in the area. That in a nutshell is the big advantage, and why they do so well in logs, but not so much on the parse dummy. The more enemies in the area the better they do. To me, all zos had to do is change the passive to, say, 50% splash damage. But I’m sure they looked at that, and have their reasons for not changing it.

Unfortunately, it isn't just the AOE cleave, and Lightning Staves actually do well on parse dummies even without the cleave included. They are the 2nd highest, single target Heavy Attack damage before factoring in "Heavy Attack" sets.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks

The issue is that Lightning Staff "Heavy Attack" is broken up into 2 channel damages and 1 final hit. All other weapons in the game have only 1, albeit bigger, final hit. This "unique" channel damage is making "Heavy Attack" sets, like Sergeant's Mail, provide more damage than intended because these sets add a flat damage buff to the "Heavy Attack" damage.

For example, Sergeant's Mail

> When you deal damage with a Heavy Attack, you gain a stack of Sergeant's Focus for 5 seconds, increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks by 645 per stack. This effect can occur once every half second and stacks up to 4 times.

This means, at full stacks, a player should be adding 2580 to their "Heavy Attack" damage. But with Lightning Staves, both the channel damage AND the final hit are being buffed by 2580. Giving a "Fully Charged Heavy Attack" from Lightning Staves + 7740...

This is the largest reason why Lightning Staves are heads/tails better than any other weapon in the game for Heavy Attacks. Lightning Staves already have the 2nd highest single target damage (even more than Inferno Staves somehow...), but it's really this channel damage component and "Heavy Attack" sets counting that channel damage as "Heavy Attack" damage instead of collectively applying the buff

CP5

If you want animation canceling to be gone, then you'd have pure attack commitment like what is seen in dark souls, where you can't end an attack early, leaving you unable to dodge or block mid-way through a heavy attack. Does that sound preferable? Because aside from that the only other way to 'remove weaving' would be to put light and heavy attacks on the same global cooldown as skills, meaning they would need to be buffed to the point of warranting that space, but using your abilities as efficiently as possible would always remain. You've expressed your disinterest in how ESO handles combat, but plenty of players, like myself, enjoy it, and the changes that are assumed to 'fix' those issues would only leave players who enjoy the combat as is disappointed, while not living up to the expectations of players like yourself.

nokturnihs

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

My only issue with the current HA builds is that they do seem to be laser focused on Sorc lightning builds alone.

I wish there was similar builds for bows, dual wield, etc, and for all classes as well.

The HA nerf to me seems very misguided. The highest dps players are not using HA oak builds. I thought (from that last balancing patch) that those numbers were the problem? But the above average dps builds are now the “real” problem, I guess?

The timing of this seems so strange as they are introducing “world events” which are not really world events, but are actually 4 person vet type dungeons, as a daily. Do they want even less people capable of doing them?

Yeah, fact that lightning staves are so far ahead of every other weapon when in comes to HA setups sucks. ZoS could for example buff empower to like 120% and make every set like sergant or storm master when used with lightning or resto stave to work only with last HA tick. This way there would be way more versatlity of builds and weapon choices for HA setups and their numbers would still remain decent.

HA nerf seems pretty logical considering that devs said HA setups are too close to other options for how simlfilied they are. Devs simply don't want for way easier setup to come too close to setup that is way harder to play especially in end game content. Fact that standard two bar setups also recived nerfs because of how high numbers were on them doesn't mean it's the only thing that wasn't balanced in devs eyes.

As for timing well if devs have some balance idea it needs to happen eventually and they have only 4 chances per year to do it since they add more important balance changes only with major patches. I wouldn't be overdramatic. Nerf itself is not that impactfull that it would suddenly made doable content impossible to complete.

And here I thought in a forum filled with “fake dps” complaints, having a way for lower end dps players to improve would be welcomed. But apparently being a “second place dps” is too good for those players. They can’t just be second place, they need to be a far, far distant second place it seems.

You have to keep in mind not everybody doing this build is pulling 70-80k. I would say most players with this build are maybe pulling half that.
It’s not enough to have the oak ring, and run enough dungeons to get all of the gear pieces, you have to also have a leveled sorc, enough skill points, the right traits, the right enchants, and the right race, to hit those heights.
And most “casual” players may not have all of that going for them.
We keep talking about how eso “experts” who know this game thoroughly with high end computers and excellent internet connections, showing off these great numbers with these builds. They have exceptional reflexes and know how to work the times to the exact half second. And all of them agree, however begrudgingly, that these builds are not top end even in the hands of an expert.
But what are the numbers like for the average player?

This is a nerf aimed squarely at the average player, people who think doing a solo arena on normal is beyond their capabilities. That’s who is being affected by this nerf.

The YouTubers who make videos about how these are “too high” or “they are good enough after the nerf” are all personally running two bar builds in trials. None of those builds are actually threatened into obscurity by the presence of the HA build.

(Btw are two bar builds over performing? Where are the videos about those builds? Even in that update aimed at those numbers, were there any videos agreeing with the nerf? It’s easy to agree with zos on a nerf when it does not personally affect you…)

And meanwhile now we are telling tge average players to take a nerf. Once again the gap between the high end and everyone else goes wider.
Why? So that high end players can make posts complaining how their numbers are 80% of the damage in dungeons?

I also take issue with the concept that this build is “simple”, the fact that so few players can pull off those high end dual bar builds leads me to believe that those are too overly complex. Perhaps if the two bar builds were themselves “simplified” it would be better for the game.

I have to take issue with the bolded part. I play on xbox. My best parse, EVER, on a light attack rotation is like 70K on a meta build. I hit 80K on an oakensorc build by just holding the xbox heavy attack trigger. And 97K actually doing the rotation.

You don't need reflexes, or high end computers. You just need to read a number counting down on your skill timers and press the associated button when the timer runs out. All while never letting go of the heavy attack button. Basically, hold the heavy attack trigger and press a button ever 4 seconds or so. Or, just hold the heavy attack and do 80K.

Hate to say it man but while I'm happy for you that's not what most of us are hitting. I play with a controller too and have a REALLY beefy computer and my parses are no where close to yours. One difference - that's challenging for me. I think it's probably pretty easy for you to do? I parse and watch my efficiency sink like the titanic and you're probably growing your skill? Of course if you got a lot of skill you'll always be better than us. We could debate who's actually working harder for the numbers we achieve but at the end of the day, effort was expended. Maybe effort some folks find unworthy of respect? Not the point. Point being the nerf heavily impacts the average to crappy player significantly and the high end players not at all which makes the "over-performing argument" disingenuous.

By your numbers I would say you're a top end player. Congratulations bud!

jaws343

nokturnihs wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

My only issue with the current HA builds is that they do seem to be laser focused on Sorc lightning builds alone.

I wish there was similar builds for bows, dual wield, etc, and for all classes as well.

The HA nerf to me seems very misguided. The highest dps players are not using HA oak builds. I thought (from that last balancing patch) that those numbers were the problem? But the above average dps builds are now the “real” problem, I guess?

The timing of this seems so strange as they are introducing “world events” which are not really world events, but are actually 4 person vet type dungeons, as a daily. Do they want even less people capable of doing them?

Yeah, fact that lightning staves are so far ahead of every other weapon when in comes to HA setups sucks. ZoS could for example buff empower to like 120% and make every set like sergant or storm master when used with lightning or resto stave to work only with last HA tick. This way there would be way more versatlity of builds and weapon choices for HA setups and their numbers would still remain decent.

HA nerf seems pretty logical considering that devs said HA setups are too close to other options for how simlfilied they are. Devs simply don't want for way easier setup to come too close to setup that is way harder to play especially in end game content. Fact that standard two bar setups also recived nerfs because of how high numbers were on them doesn't mean it's the only thing that wasn't balanced in devs eyes.

As for timing well if devs have some balance idea it needs to happen eventually and they have only 4 chances per year to do it since they add more important balance changes only with major patches. I wouldn't be overdramatic. Nerf itself is not that impactfull that it would suddenly made doable content impossible to complete.

And here I thought in a forum filled with “fake dps” complaints, having a way for lower end dps players to improve would be welcomed. But apparently being a “second place dps” is too good for those players. They can’t just be second place, they need to be a far, far distant second place it seems.

You have to keep in mind not everybody doing this build is pulling 70-80k. I would say most players with this build are maybe pulling half that.
It’s not enough to have the oak ring, and run enough dungeons to get all of the gear pieces, you have to also have a leveled sorc, enough skill points, the right traits, the right enchants, and the right race, to hit those heights.
And most “casual” players may not have all of that going for them.
We keep talking about how eso “experts” who know this game thoroughly with high end computers and excellent internet connections, showing off these great numbers with these builds. They have exceptional reflexes and know how to work the times to the exact half second. And all of them agree, however begrudgingly, that these builds are not top end even in the hands of an expert.
But what are the numbers like for the average player?

This is a nerf aimed squarely at the average player, people who think doing a solo arena on normal is beyond their capabilities. That’s who is being affected by this nerf.

The YouTubers who make videos about how these are “too high” or “they are good enough after the nerf” are all personally running two bar builds in trials. None of those builds are actually threatened into obscurity by the presence of the HA build.

(Btw are two bar builds over performing? Where are the videos about those builds? Even in that update aimed at those numbers, were there any videos agreeing with the nerf? It’s easy to agree with zos on a nerf when it does not personally affect you…)

And meanwhile now we are telling tge average players to take a nerf. Once again the gap between the high end and everyone else goes wider.
Why? So that high end players can make posts complaining how their numbers are 80% of the damage in dungeons?

I also take issue with the concept that this build is “simple”, the fact that so few players can pull off those high end dual bar builds leads me to believe that those are too overly complex. Perhaps if the two bar builds were themselves “simplified” it would be better for the game.

I have to take issue with the bolded part. I play on xbox. My best parse, EVER, on a light attack rotation is like 70K on a meta build. I hit 80K on an oakensorc build by just holding the xbox heavy attack trigger. And 97K actually doing the rotation.

You don't need reflexes, or high end computers. You just need to read a number counting down on your skill timers and press the associated button when the timer runs out. All while never letting go of the heavy attack button. Basically, hold the heavy attack trigger and press a button ever 4 seconds or so. Or, just hold the heavy attack and do 80K.

Hate to say it man but while I'm happy for you that's not what most of us are hitting. I play with a controller too and have a REALLY beefy computer and my parses are no where close to yours. One difference - that's challenging for me. I think it's probably pretty easy for you to do? I parse and watch my efficiency sink like the titanic and you're probably growing your skill? Of course if you got a lot of skill you'll always be better than us. We could debate who's actually working harder for the numbers we achieve but at the end of the day, effort was expended. Maybe effort some folks find unworthy of respect? Not the point. Point being the nerf heavily impacts the average to crappy player significantly and the high end players not at all which makes the "over-performing argument" disingenuous.

By your numbers I would say you're a top end player. Congratulations bud!

I am not growing skill. I am holding one button down. It literally takes 0 skill to do that. A piece of tape has enough skill to do that.

Soarora

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Who gives a flying hoot how try hard end gamers play ? So what even if they use heavy attack builds to finished end game content they have already proved they can weave we know they can do it. Maybe it’s more fun for them or they are tired of doing the finger waltz ? Who cares what others do. That is the issue here too many people butting in to others business. I couldn’t give a rats batooty how someone else plays and they shouldn’t care how I play. This is a elder scrolls spin off game not an esport.

…Me? We are people too. If endgamers were just using ha builds sometimes then fine but THEY’RE THE ONES ALSO complaining about how it’s so easy! They’re making it everyone’s business. The negativity isn’t good but they’ve put themselves in that situation and are dragging everyone else down with them. If I could simply not listen to it I would but it’s not that simple.

Liguar wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

The “sweaty types” ARE NOT holding onto their “still-superior DPS”, that’s the problem. They’re taking HA, sweatifying it, in several cases forcing everyone around them to do HA too, and then complaining about how it’s easy and boring. Either people are going to get so bored they’ll go back to their regular builds or this is going to keep getting worse until you can’t do dungeons or trials anymore without being specifically a sorcerer with 2 pets and oakensoul and seargent + storm caller. What the endgame is becoming benefits NO ONE except for people who run the meta build for HA, which again, most people don’t seem to.

*When I say endgamers I mean people who can run traditional builds and have hardmodes and trifectas at current and are continuing to run content at the vet or above level, and subscribe to the meta if not create it themselves.

I don't have a bone to pick with you specifically, I quote this section as I think it does represent the problem. You say you don't like that the sweaties are forcing people to play how they want, but that's what the people who want HA nerfs are doing to those that like HA builds. It's this cycle of people telling others the right way to play, it's annoying and I imagine most people don't like it.

I understand your point but not necessarily. Several people do align with what you say but I don’t want HA obliterated, it’s clear to me now many people don’t even use the meta build. They should be supported. The top can be nerfed without hurting everyone else. And this is the worst case of being forced to play one way I’ve ever seen. For open runs anywhere from a random dungeon to a trial hardmode, only open to heavy attack sorcerer with oakensoul and 2 of the meta heavy attack sets and 2 pets with lightning staff. This is not accessible to anyone except people who specifically play that build. Open runs used to welcome anyone. Any class. HA or traditional. No specific gear outside of the support DPS in trials. Not all the time anymore. And it’s getting worse. The only way I see this getting better is to change HA. Either dealing with oakensoul + HA or messing with the specific build endgamers use for HA. Nerfing empower isn’t the way to go. I’m sure there’s a happy outcome out there where HA is decent but endgamers prefer traditional builds still and that’s what it seems zos is trying to get to.

And to be super clear I’ll say it one more time:
Open runs are becoming one singular build ONLY.
Any traditional DPS without oakenHA sorc is excluded. Any HAer that runs a different class or different build or 2 bars are excluded. Neither of us are winning here.

I think the starting problem is that people consider a weaving bug to be “traditional” in the first place. We need to start there.

I don’t think so. It is the traditional build. If you do as the game tells you exactly you’ll end up with 2 bars, DoTs, buffs, and a spammable. It’s been the most common way of building for quite some time. I refuse to call it an LA build because that’s something else. LA can refer to another build style like HA where LAs become the spammable or a build that uses weaving, but you can do a traditional build and not weave. I can’t call it 2-bar because HA 2-bar exists. Can’t call it a weave build because you can do 1-bar with weaving. And I can’t call it normal or else people will get offended. Only other option is to call it a 2-bar weave build but that’s lengthy.

Edit: Oh, I didn’t read what you said properly you’re complaining about weaving. A traditional build is more than weaving it’s a 2-bar build with buffs, DoTs, an AoE, spammable, etc. Weaving is not a bug, it’s a part of the game and embraced by ZOS. Even if it was “a bug they could not fix” it isn’t one anymore. End of story, you don’t like weaving don’t weave. You don’t need a HA build to not weave. You just don’t weave. That’s all. I don’t weave on a tank. I don’t weave on a healer (I “should” but no). I’ve been playing around with no-weave on PTS and it’s fun because you can’t use sets like relequen and pillar and whorl. Not weaving doesn’t immediately equal heavy attack build there’s more options, I’m never just talking about a build that weaves.
P.S. by the way, you can LA weave on a heavy attack build. So… very much I am not focusing on weaving = traditional here.

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Who gives a flying hoot how try hard end gamers play ? So what even if they use heavy attack builds to finished end game content they have already proved they can weave we know they can do it. Maybe it’s more fun for them or they are tired of doing the finger waltz ? Who cares what others do. That is the issue here too many people butting in to others business. I couldn’t give a rats batooty how someone else plays and they shouldn’t care how I play. This is a elder scrolls spin off game not an esport.

…Me? We are people too. If endgamers were just using ha builds sometimes then fine but THEY’RE THE ONES ALSO complaining about how it’s so easy! They’re making it everyone’s business. The negativity isn’t good but they’ve put themselves in that situation and are dragging everyone else down with them. If I could simply not listen to it I would but it’s not that simple.

Liguar wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

The “sweaty types” ARE NOT holding onto their “still-superior DPS”, that’s the problem. They’re taking HA, sweatifying it, in several cases forcing everyone around them to do HA too, and then complaining about how it’s easy and boring. Either people are going to get so bored they’ll go back to their regular builds or this is going to keep getting worse until you can’t do dungeons or trials anymore without being specifically a sorcerer with 2 pets and oakensoul and seargent + storm caller. What the endgame is becoming benefits NO ONE except for people who run the meta build for HA, which again, most people don’t seem to.

*When I say endgamers I mean people who can run traditional builds and have hardmodes and trifectas at current and are continuing to run content at the vet or above level, and subscribe to the meta if not create it themselves.

I don't have a bone to pick with you specifically, I quote this section as I think it does represent the problem. You say you don't like that the sweaties are forcing people to play how they want, but that's what the people who want HA nerfs are doing to those that like HA builds. It's this cycle of people telling others the right way to play, it's annoying and I imagine most people don't like it.

I understand your point but not necessarily. Several people do align with what you say but I don’t want HA obliterated, it’s clear to me now many people don’t even use the meta build. They should be supported. The top can be nerfed without hurting everyone else. And this is the worst case of being forced to play one way I’ve ever seen. For open runs anywhere from a random dungeon to a trial hardmode, only open to heavy attack sorcerer with oakensoul and 2 of the meta heavy attack sets and 2 pets with lightning staff. This is not accessible to anyone except people who specifically play that build. Open runs used to welcome anyone. Any class. HA or traditional. No specific gear outside of the support DPS in trials. Not all the time anymore. And it’s getting worse. The only way I see this getting better is to change HA. Either dealing with oakensoul + HA or messing with the specific build endgamers use for HA. Nerfing empower isn’t the way to go. I’m sure there’s a happy outcome out there where HA is decent but endgamers prefer traditional builds still and that’s what it seems zos is trying to get to.

And to be super clear I’ll say it one more time:
Open runs are becoming one singular build ONLY.
Any traditional DPS without oakenHA sorc is excluded. Any HAer that runs a different class or different build or 2 bars are excluded. Neither of us are winning here.

I think the starting problem is that people consider a weaving bug to be “traditional” in the first place. We need to start there.

I think the starting problem is that people consider weaving a bug in the first place. We've been over this hundereds of times throughout almost a decade and in 2023 people still are using the same argument that really doesn't bring much into the discussion.

Galeriano

nokturnihs wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

My only issue with the current HA builds is that they do seem to be laser focused on Sorc lightning builds alone.

I wish there was similar builds for bows, dual wield, etc, and for all classes as well.

The HA nerf to me seems very misguided. The highest dps players are not using HA oak builds. I thought (from that last balancing patch) that those numbers were the problem? But the above average dps builds are now the “real” problem, I guess?

The timing of this seems so strange as they are introducing “world events” which are not really world events, but are actually 4 person vet type dungeons, as a daily. Do they want even less people capable of doing them?

Yeah, fact that lightning staves are so far ahead of every other weapon when in comes to HA setups sucks. ZoS could for example buff empower to like 120% and make every set like sergant or storm master when used with lightning or resto stave to work only with last HA tick. This way there would be way more versatlity of builds and weapon choices for HA setups and their numbers would still remain decent.

HA nerf seems pretty logical considering that devs said HA setups are too close to other options for how simlfilied they are. Devs simply don't want for way easier setup to come too close to setup that is way harder to play especially in end game content. Fact that standard two bar setups also recived nerfs because of how high numbers were on them doesn't mean it's the only thing that wasn't balanced in devs eyes.

As for timing well if devs have some balance idea it needs to happen eventually and they have only 4 chances per year to do it since they add more important balance changes only with major patches. I wouldn't be overdramatic. Nerf itself is not that impactfull that it would suddenly made doable content impossible to complete.

And here I thought in a forum filled with “fake dps” complaints, having a way for lower end dps players to improve would be welcomed. But apparently being a “second place dps” is too good for those players. They can’t just be second place, they need to be a far, far distant second place it seems.

You have to keep in mind not everybody doing this build is pulling 70-80k. I would say most players with this build are maybe pulling half that.
It’s not enough to have the oak ring, and run enough dungeons to get all of the gear pieces, you have to also have a leveled sorc, enough skill points, the right traits, the right enchants, and the right race, to hit those heights.
And most “casual” players may not have all of that going for them.
We keep talking about how eso “experts” who know this game thoroughly with high end computers and excellent internet connections, showing off these great numbers with these builds. They have exceptional reflexes and know how to work the times to the exact half second. And all of them agree, however begrudgingly, that these builds are not top end even in the hands of an expert.
But what are the numbers like for the average player?

This is a nerf aimed squarely at the average player, people who think doing a solo arena on normal is beyond their capabilities. That’s who is being affected by this nerf.

The YouTubers who make videos about how these are “too high” or “they are good enough after the nerf” are all personally running two bar builds in trials. None of those builds are actually threatened into obscurity by the presence of the HA build.

(Btw are two bar builds over performing? Where are the videos about those builds? Even in that update aimed at those numbers, were there any videos agreeing with the nerf? It’s easy to agree with zos on a nerf when it does not personally affect you…)

And meanwhile now we are telling tge average players to take a nerf. Once again the gap between the high end and everyone else goes wider.
Why? So that high end players can make posts complaining how their numbers are 80% of the damage in dungeons?

I also take issue with the concept that this build is “simple”, the fact that so few players can pull off those high end dual bar builds leads me to believe that those are too overly complex. Perhaps if the two bar builds were themselves “simplified” it would be better for the game.

I have to take issue with the bolded part. I play on xbox. My best parse, EVER, on a light attack rotation is like 70K on a meta build. I hit 80K on an oakensorc build by just holding the xbox heavy attack trigger. And 97K actually doing the rotation.

You don't need reflexes, or high end computers. You just need to read a number counting down on your skill timers and press the associated button when the timer runs out. All while never letting go of the heavy attack button. Basically, hold the heavy attack trigger and press a button ever 4 seconds or so. Or, just hold the heavy attack and do 80K.

Hate to say it man but while I'm happy for you that's not what most of us are hitting. I play with a controller too and have a REALLY beefy computer and my parses are no where close to yours. One difference - that's challenging for me. I think it's probably pretty easy for you to do? I parse and watch my efficiency sink like the titanic and you're probably growing your skill? Of course if you got a lot of skill you'll always be better than us. We could debate who's actually working harder for the numbers we achieve but at the end of the day, effort was expended. Maybe effort some folks find unworthy of respect? Not the point. Point being the nerf heavily impacts the average to crappy player significantly and the high end players not at all which makes the "over-performing argument" disingenuous.

By your numbers I would say you're a top end player. Congratulations bud!

If You are not reaching 80k+ on a trial dummy with one bar HA setup than it have nothing to do with difficulty or skill level. Either Your setup is all over the place or You're not testing Your DPS on a proper dummy. Everyone and I mean literally everyone can break 80k with properly finished setup. It's fairly easy to break 90k on almost every class either. I've helped few people in my guilds by creating simple static rotations that will support their lower skill or disabilities and all of them are reaching now 85-95k DPS. One of these people is over 60 years old with hand issue and low reflexes and his PR is 97k with rotation I made for him. He literally went from being around 80k to consistantly hitting around 95k in a matter of one hour. Yes, one hour.

So no this have nothing to do with difficulty or skill level.

isadoraisacat

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Who gives a flying hoot how try hard end gamers play ? So what even if they use heavy attack builds to finished end game content they have already proved they can weave we know they can do it. Maybe it’s more fun for them or they are tired of doing the finger waltz ? Who cares what others do. That is the issue here too many people butting in to others business. I couldn’t give a rats batooty how someone else plays and they shouldn’t care how I play. This is a elder scrolls spin off game not an esport.

…Me? We are people too. If endgamers were just using ha builds sometimes then fine but THEY’RE THE ONES ALSO complaining about how it’s so easy! They’re making it everyone’s business. The negativity isn’t good but they’ve put themselves in that situation and are dragging everyone else down with them. If I could simply not listen to it I would but it’s not that simple.

Liguar wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

The “sweaty types” ARE NOT holding onto their “still-superior DPS”, that’s the problem. They’re taking HA, sweatifying it, in several cases forcing everyone around them to do HA too, and then complaining about how it’s easy and boring. Either people are going to get so bored they’ll go back to their regular builds or this is going to keep getting worse until you can’t do dungeons or trials anymore without being specifically a sorcerer with 2 pets and oakensoul and seargent + storm caller. What the endgame is becoming benefits NO ONE except for people who run the meta build for HA, which again, most people don’t seem to.

*When I say endgamers I mean people who can run traditional builds and have hardmodes and trifectas at current and are continuing to run content at the vet or above level, and subscribe to the meta if not create it themselves.

I don't have a bone to pick with you specifically, I quote this section as I think it does represent the problem. You say you don't like that the sweaties are forcing people to play how they want, but that's what the people who want HA nerfs are doing to those that like HA builds. It's this cycle of people telling others the right way to play, it's annoying and I imagine most people don't like it.

I understand your point but not necessarily. Several people do align with what you say but I don’t want HA obliterated, it’s clear to me now many people don’t even use the meta build. They should be supported. The top can be nerfed without hurting everyone else. And this is the worst case of being forced to play one way I’ve ever seen. For open runs anywhere from a random dungeon to a trial hardmode, only open to heavy attack sorcerer with oakensoul and 2 of the meta heavy attack sets and 2 pets with lightning staff. This is not accessible to anyone except people who specifically play that build. Open runs used to welcome anyone. Any class. HA or traditional. No specific gear outside of the support DPS in trials. Not all the time anymore. And it’s getting worse. The only way I see this getting better is to change HA. Either dealing with oakensoul + HA or messing with the specific build endgamers use for HA. Nerfing empower isn’t the way to go. I’m sure there’s a happy outcome out there where HA is decent but endgamers prefer traditional builds still and that’s what it seems zos is trying to get to.

And to be super clear I’ll say it one more time:
Open runs are becoming one singular build ONLY.
Any traditional DPS without oakenHA sorc is excluded. Any HAer that runs a different class or different build or 2 bars are excluded. Neither of us are winning here.

I think the starting problem is that people consider a weaving bug to be “traditional” in the first place. We need to start there.

I don’t think so. It is the traditional build. If you do as the game tells you exactly you’ll end up with 2 bars, DoTs, buffs, and a spammable. It’s been the most common way of building for quite some time. I refuse to call it an LA build because that’s something else. LA can refer to another build style like HA where LAs become the spammable or a build that uses weaving, but you can do a traditional build and not weave. I can’t call it 2-bar because HA 2-bar exists. Can’t call it a weave build because you can do 1-bar with weaving. And I can’t call it normal or else people will get offended. Only other option is to call it a 2-bar weave build but that’s lengthy.

Edit: Oh, I didn’t read what you said properly you’re complaining about weaving. A traditional build is more than weaving it’s a 2-bar build with buffs, DoTs, an AoE, spammable, etc. Weaving is not a bug, it’s a part of the game and embraced by ZOS. Even if it was “a bug they could not fix” it isn’t one anymore. End of story, you don’t like weaving don’t weave. You don’t need a HA build to not weave. You just don’t weave. That’s all. I don’t weave on a tank. I don’t weave on a healer (I “should” but no). I’ve been playing around with no-weave on PTS and it’s fun because you can’t use sets like relequen and pillar and whorl. Not weaving doesn’t immediately equal heavy attack build there’s more options, I’m never just talking about a build that weaves.
P.S. by the way, you can LA weave on a heavy attack build. So… very much I am not focusing on weaving = traditional here.

Just because something is considered “traditional” doesn’t make it ideal for the majority.

We have seen that in modern times many traditions were not inclusive and we changed due to progressive ideas that improved society for the better.

CP5

Well, technically, the "traditional" play style of single player Elder Scrolls games isn't ideal for an mmo. Just because it isn't your preference doesn't mean ESO was designed this way for no reason.

Soarora

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Who gives a flying hoot how try hard end gamers play ? So what even if they use heavy attack builds to finished end game content they have already proved they can weave we know they can do it. Maybe it’s more fun for them or they are tired of doing the finger waltz ? Who cares what others do. That is the issue here too many people butting in to others business. I couldn’t give a rats batooty how someone else plays and they shouldn’t care how I play. This is a elder scrolls spin off game not an esport.

…Me? We are people too. If endgamers were just using ha builds sometimes then fine but THEY’RE THE ONES ALSO complaining about how it’s so easy! They’re making it everyone’s business. The negativity isn’t good but they’ve put themselves in that situation and are dragging everyone else down with them. If I could simply not listen to it I would but it’s not that simple.

Liguar wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

The “sweaty types” ARE NOT holding onto their “still-superior DPS”, that’s the problem. They’re taking HA, sweatifying it, in several cases forcing everyone around them to do HA too, and then complaining about how it’s easy and boring. Either people are going to get so bored they’ll go back to their regular builds or this is going to keep getting worse until you can’t do dungeons or trials anymore without being specifically a sorcerer with 2 pets and oakensoul and seargent + storm caller. What the endgame is becoming benefits NO ONE except for people who run the meta build for HA, which again, most people don’t seem to.

*When I say endgamers I mean people who can run traditional builds and have hardmodes and trifectas at current and are continuing to run content at the vet or above level, and subscribe to the meta if not create it themselves.

I don't have a bone to pick with you specifically, I quote this section as I think it does represent the problem. You say you don't like that the sweaties are forcing people to play how they want, but that's what the people who want HA nerfs are doing to those that like HA builds. It's this cycle of people telling others the right way to play, it's annoying and I imagine most people don't like it.

I understand your point but not necessarily. Several people do align with what you say but I don’t want HA obliterated, it’s clear to me now many people don’t even use the meta build. They should be supported. The top can be nerfed without hurting everyone else. And this is the worst case of being forced to play one way I’ve ever seen. For open runs anywhere from a random dungeon to a trial hardmode, only open to heavy attack sorcerer with oakensoul and 2 of the meta heavy attack sets and 2 pets with lightning staff. This is not accessible to anyone except people who specifically play that build. Open runs used to welcome anyone. Any class. HA or traditional. No specific gear outside of the support DPS in trials. Not all the time anymore. And it’s getting worse. The only way I see this getting better is to change HA. Either dealing with oakensoul + HA or messing with the specific build endgamers use for HA. Nerfing empower isn’t the way to go. I’m sure there’s a happy outcome out there where HA is decent but endgamers prefer traditional builds still and that’s what it seems zos is trying to get to.

And to be super clear I’ll say it one more time:
Open runs are becoming one singular build ONLY.
Any traditional DPS without oakenHA sorc is excluded. Any HAer that runs a different class or different build or 2 bars are excluded. Neither of us are winning here.

I think the starting problem is that people consider a weaving bug to be “traditional” in the first place. We need to start there.

I don’t think so. It is the traditional build. If you do as the game tells you exactly you’ll end up with 2 bars, DoTs, buffs, and a spammable. It’s been the most common way of building for quite some time. I refuse to call it an LA build because that’s something else. LA can refer to another build style like HA where LAs become the spammable or a build that uses weaving, but you can do a traditional build and not weave. I can’t call it 2-bar because HA 2-bar exists. Can’t call it a weave build because you can do 1-bar with weaving. And I can’t call it normal or else people will get offended. Only other option is to call it a 2-bar weave build but that’s lengthy.

Edit: Oh, I didn’t read what you said properly you’re complaining about weaving. A traditional build is more than weaving it’s a 2-bar build with buffs, DoTs, an AoE, spammable, etc. Weaving is not a bug, it’s a part of the game and embraced by ZOS. Even if it was “a bug they could not fix” it isn’t one anymore. End of story, you don’t like weaving don’t weave. You don’t need a HA build to not weave. You just don’t weave. That’s all. I don’t weave on a tank. I don’t weave on a healer (I “should” but no). I’ve been playing around with no-weave on PTS and it’s fun because you can’t use sets like relequen and pillar and whorl. Not weaving doesn’t immediately equal heavy attack build there’s more options, I’m never just talking about a build that weaves.
P.S. by the way, you can LA weave on a heavy attack build. So… very much I am not focusing on weaving = traditional here.

Just because something is considered “traditional” doesn’t make it ideal for the majority.

We have seen that in modern times many traditions were not inclusive and we changed due to progressive ideas that improved society for the better.

I have never claimed that traditional is ideal for the majority where are you getting this from? I call the build traditional because there’s simply no other better thing to call it. That’s all. Current endgamers need to go back to traditional builds because they’re complaining about the HA builds they’re using and the game has been based in traditional builds for years. I’m not claiming everyone playing the game needs to use a traditional build.

isadoraisacat

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Who gives a flying hoot how try hard end gamers play ? So what even if they use heavy attack builds to finished end game content they have already proved they can weave we know they can do it. Maybe it’s more fun for them or they are tired of doing the finger waltz ? Who cares what others do. That is the issue here too many people butting in to others business. I couldn’t give a rats batooty how someone else plays and they shouldn’t care how I play. This is a elder scrolls spin off game not an esport.

…Me? We are people too. If endgamers were just using ha builds sometimes then fine but THEY’RE THE ONES ALSO complaining about how it’s so easy! They’re making it everyone’s business. The negativity isn’t good but they’ve put themselves in that situation and are dragging everyone else down with them. If I could simply not listen to it I would but it’s not that simple.

Liguar wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

The “sweaty types” ARE NOT holding onto their “still-superior DPS”, that’s the problem. They’re taking HA, sweatifying it, in several cases forcing everyone around them to do HA too, and then complaining about how it’s easy and boring. Either people are going to get so bored they’ll go back to their regular builds or this is going to keep getting worse until you can’t do dungeons or trials anymore without being specifically a sorcerer with 2 pets and oakensoul and seargent + storm caller. What the endgame is becoming benefits NO ONE except for people who run the meta build for HA, which again, most people don’t seem to.

*When I say endgamers I mean people who can run traditional builds and have hardmodes and trifectas at current and are continuing to run content at the vet or above level, and subscribe to the meta if not create it themselves.

I don't have a bone to pick with you specifically, I quote this section as I think it does represent the problem. You say you don't like that the sweaties are forcing people to play how they want, but that's what the people who want HA nerfs are doing to those that like HA builds. It's this cycle of people telling others the right way to play, it's annoying and I imagine most people don't like it.

I understand your point but not necessarily. Several people do align with what you say but I don’t want HA obliterated, it’s clear to me now many people don’t even use the meta build. They should be supported. The top can be nerfed without hurting everyone else. And this is the worst case of being forced to play one way I’ve ever seen. For open runs anywhere from a random dungeon to a trial hardmode, only open to heavy attack sorcerer with oakensoul and 2 of the meta heavy attack sets and 2 pets with lightning staff. This is not accessible to anyone except people who specifically play that build. Open runs used to welcome anyone. Any class. HA or traditional. No specific gear outside of the support DPS in trials. Not all the time anymore. And it’s getting worse. The only way I see this getting better is to change HA. Either dealing with oakensoul + HA or messing with the specific build endgamers use for HA. Nerfing empower isn’t the way to go. I’m sure there’s a happy outcome out there where HA is decent but endgamers prefer traditional builds still and that’s what it seems zos is trying to get to.

And to be super clear I’ll say it one more time:
Open runs are becoming one singular build ONLY.
Any traditional DPS without oakenHA sorc is excluded. Any HAer that runs a different class or different build or 2 bars are excluded. Neither of us are winning here.

I think the starting problem is that people consider a weaving bug to be “traditional” in the first place. We need to start there.

I don’t think so. It is the traditional build. If you do as the game tells you exactly you’ll end up with 2 bars, DoTs, buffs, and a spammable. It’s been the most common way of building for quite some time. I refuse to call it an LA build because that’s something else. LA can refer to another build style like HA where LAs become the spammable or a build that uses weaving, but you can do a traditional build and not weave. I can’t call it 2-bar because HA 2-bar exists. Can’t call it a weave build because you can do 1-bar with weaving. And I can’t call it normal or else people will get offended. Only other option is to call it a 2-bar weave build but that’s lengthy.

Edit: Oh, I didn’t read what you said properly you’re complaining about weaving. A traditional build is more than weaving it’s a 2-bar build with buffs, DoTs, an AoE, spammable, etc. Weaving is not a bug, it’s a part of the game and embraced by ZOS. Even if it was “a bug they could not fix” it isn’t one anymore. End of story, you don’t like weaving don’t weave. You don’t need a HA build to not weave. You just don’t weave. That’s all. I don’t weave on a tank. I don’t weave on a healer (I “should” but no). I’ve been playing around with no-weave on PTS and it’s fun because you can’t use sets like relequen and pillar and whorl. Not weaving doesn’t immediately equal heavy attack build there’s more options, I’m never just talking about a build that weaves.
P.S. by the way, you can LA weave on a heavy attack build. So… very much I am not focusing on weaving = traditional here.

Just because something is considered “traditional” doesn’t make it ideal for the majority.

We have seen that in modern times many traditions were not inclusive and we changed due to progressive ideas that improved society for the better.

I have never claimed that traditional is ideal for the majority where are you getting this from? I call the build traditional because there’s simply no other better thing to call it. That’s all. Current endgamers need to go back to traditional builds because they’re complaining about the HA builds they’re using and the game has been based in traditional builds for years. I’m not claiming everyone playing the game needs to use a traditional build.

You know what a general statement is right ? I never claimed you said anything I just made a general statement.

isadoraisacat

CP5 wrote: »

Well, technically, the "traditional" play style of single player Elder Scrolls games isn't ideal for an mmo. Just because it isn't your preference doesn't mean ESO was designed this way for no reason.

Eso combat isn’t typical of an mmo either.
Most have auto attacks and tab targeting.
Just because “weaving” is your preference doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue, that many have brought up since 2014 that has kept many players away from the game.

FrancisCrawford

Galeriano wrote: »

You are making lots of claims but You are not answering basic questions that needs to be answered if Your claims would be correct.

If light attack rotation is that easy and strong that in real content You could produce decent enough DPS even with just one ability and LA, why would one bar HA setups specifically be so popular? Is everyone suddenly such a big enjoyer of lightning staves and chanelling HA with them?

Why overwhelming majority of people using oakensoul is running with a heavy attack setup? If Your testing is reliable than why aren't there many one bar setups that are not HA based?

If one bar HA are in fact so unquestionably inferior to two bar setups in any given area than why there are certain places where among top 100 parses there is over 90 one bar HA users? Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

By "certain places" you mean a certain way to do one particular trial that puts a premium on AoE damage, correct?

Galeriano

nokturnihs wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You are making lots of claims but You are not answering basic questions that needs to be answered if Your claims would be correct.

If light attack rotation is that easy and strong that in real content You could produce decent enough DPS even with just one ability and LA, why would one bar HA setups specifically be so popular? Is everyone suddenly such a big enjoyer of lightning staves and chanelling HA with them?

Why overwhelming majority of people using oakensoul is running with a heavy attack setup? If Your testing is reliable than why aren't there many one bar setups that are not HA based?

If one bar HA are in fact so unquestionably inferior to two bar setups in any given area than why there are certain places where among top 100 parses there is over 90 one bar HA users? Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

I don't see that much popularity in HA builds. When i do content I see about a third of users using HA builds.

And I have 15 CP level characters. 2 are HA builds. 3 are 2bar builds. The rest are 1bar builds. None are LA builds because I'm disabled and can't hit buttons 120x a minute.

My top performing 1bar builds are as follows:
- HA sorc using undaunted unweaver and storm master (regardless of the drivel some people post the nerf to Storm master WILL result in a 20-40% damage nerf for me) - best parse: 60k (parsing is a problem for me. The pain in my hands/body makes it unreliable as I'm not able to stop until the dummy dies and I get worse over time rather than better - this is the problem I have with 2bar rotations.)
-
- DoT Master magplar using oblivions foe and Deadly Strike. Best parse: 44k
- Status Ice Warden using serpents disdain and (formerly plaguebreak) burning spellweave. Best parse: 42k. Lower (36k) when on plaguebreak but with plaguebreak would see 100k bursts when trash mobs would blow up.
- Smashy Necro WW using hexos Ward and dragons appetite. 24k best parse. Built more for solo content.
- Ranged Gankblade Vamp using Venomous smite and other garbage. Haven't parsed in a while but can 1-3 shot most toons using venom injection and lethal arrow in BGs. Less so now due to the unending growth of tank meta.

The rest are healers or tanks. My 1bar tank are more than sufficient and can provide 50-80k damage shields to the party, heal better than most pug healers all on a 1bar.
My other tank doesn't do shields as well but AOE interrupts and major debuffs all the things. Both are capable of vet content.
My 1 bar warden healer is fine. still getting used to her skills but she's as decent as my 2bar templar healer.

As you can see I do -ok- with DPS on a 1bar. My HA Build sorc is the best. I don't use sergeant because of the same reason the SM nerf is gonna kill my DPS - uptime. I don't really enjoy the play style most the time but It's about the ONLY build outside of my tank that trial groups want in trials and half don't want that because it's a HA build.

If ZOS or the community screaming about how bad HA builds are for existing were to propose a way for someone like me to get into even the 80k range the OP mentioned I'd be interested and wouldn't care. Otherwise all the pushing against HA builds is exclusionary of people who physically don't have the same options as normal people. If normal people are using HA builds to get high parses - I'd say GOOD FOR THEM. Play smarter not harder.

Also you make a lot of claims about logs and parse data but haven't put down any evidence. Please do so.

@nokturnihs share some screenshots with Your build and parses. We can figure out ways for You to go over 80k.

Katlefiya

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

On my first ever parse on a trial dummy not even knowing the rotation in mostly purple Storm Masters and Sergent's Mail I parsed 72K. That's rather broken for somebody that doesn't even know how to DPS who just refreshed his skills on cool down in no particular order and HA attacked when things are counting down. I suspect that if I dial in my rotation and practice the numbers will get much juicier as the devs say. I then ran a random normal dungeon for further testing and did over 70% of the groups total DPS.

So, since you explicitly chose to post in this thread, did you even try the easy One-Skill LA God build that loveeso used as a comparison? How can you state that the HA build is "rather broken", without knowing how good you would parse with that other build?

Twig_Garlicshine

LA/AC Sorc
Cast Dot, LA, Dot, LA,Dot, LA, Buff, LA, Buff, LA, Spammable, LA, Spammable, LA (ad nauseam), in time to an epileptic metronome while watching your character have on screen fits.
Bar swap and/or recast buffs, dots as necessary
Return to spammable, LA
Pets and equipment do the heavy lifting.

HA Sorc
Hold LA/HA button down cast dots, buffs, or spammable in time to a slower more flowing metronome, no on screen fits by character required.
Bar swaps and/or recasts as necessary.
Pets and equipment do heavy lifting.

LAs are the manual application of an auto attack (in any other game),
this is not meaningful and does not require any skill beyond 2 finger typing and downloading a metronome add-on.
You should also have a willingness to get or aggravate Carpal Tunnel Syndrome or Arthritis.

The only "real skills" involved in any mmo are:
1/ Situational awareness for doing mechanics. (This includes PvP).
2/ Social skills for getting along with others when runs and mechanics get more difficult.
3/ A willingness to learn mechanics and do them as designed by the developers.

Personal opinion of someone who plays both LA and HA builds just fine:
1/ The developers should put in a max dps cap so players have to do mechanics instead of just maxing dps to the point of "a lot of mechanics become ignorable".
2/ The developers could then start creating more meaningful skills, equipment, and game-play instead of just "buff mah dps moar".

Billium813

nokturnihs wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You are making lots of claims but You are not answering basic questions that needs to be answered if Your claims would be correct.

If light attack rotation is that easy and strong that in real content You could produce decent enough DPS even with just one ability and LA, why would one bar HA setups specifically be so popular? Is everyone suddenly such a big enjoyer of lightning staves and chanelling HA with them?

Why overwhelming majority of people using oakensoul is running with a heavy attack setup? If Your testing is reliable than why aren't there many one bar setups that are not HA based?

If one bar HA are in fact so unquestionably inferior to two bar setups in any given area than why there are certain places where among top 100 parses there is over 90 one bar HA users? Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

My top performing 1bar builds are as follows:
- HA sorc using undaunted unweaver and storm master (regardless of the drivel some people post the nerf to Storm master WILL result in a 20-40% damage nerf for me) - best parse: 60k (parsing is a problem for me. The pain in my hands/body makes it unreliable as I'm not able to stop until the dummy dies and I get worse over time rather than better - this is the problem I have with 2bar rotations.)

Undaunted Unweaver is fine, but it isn't nearly as good as Sergeant's Mail.

Undaunted Unweaver
... you increase the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks against monsters by 1645 for 10 seconds

Sergeant's Mail
... increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks by 645 per stack (4 stack max).

2580 > 1645. It's that simple really.

For Lightning Staff, Sergeant's Mail will add 2805 damage to your Fully Charged Heavy Attack (935 damage to both channel damages and the final hit) over Undaunted Unweaver. That's fairly substantial considering channel damage is your single best damage source for your build.

The nerf to Storm Master may impact your overall build more because Undaunted Unweaver isn't very good; making Storm Master much more pronounced. However, the nerf to Storm Master should not affect any build -40%. I've tested it quiet thoroughly; the uptime decreases from ~95% uptime to ~66% uptime (and that's only with Thief Mundus, no other sources of Crit Chance). For Storm Master, I'm seeing about -17% damage drop. Considering Storm Master isn't even that good in the first place, it's a negligible hit to HA builds on the whole and most players using Storm Master won't even notice a difference.

Galeriano

Katlefiya wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

On my first ever parse on a trial dummy not even knowing the rotation in mostly purple Storm Masters and Sergent's Mail I parsed 72K. That's rather broken for somebody that doesn't even know how to DPS who just refreshed his skills on cool down in no particular order and HA attacked when things are counting down. I suspect that if I dial in my rotation and practice the numbers will get much juicier as the devs say. I then ran a random normal dungeon for further testing and did over 70% of the groups total DPS.

So, since you explicitly chose to post in this thread, did you even try the easy One-Skill LA God build that loveeso used as a comparison? How can you state that the HA build is "rather broken", without knowing how good you would parse with that other build?

That build used as comparison is way weaker and far from calling it a God build. First of all it requires LA weaving to reach similar DPS as holding one button. While LA weaving with one ability isn't hard it would still be an issue for many. Holding a button is way less problematic. If You would add one skill to HA setup it would be already outparsing that one skill LA setup. HA setup is dealing all its damage as AoE when that LA setup is almost pure single target. HA setup is basically always at full resource pool while in real content You may start to struggle with You stamina sustain on that one skill LA setup.

One skill LA setup pales in comparision. It's not even a comparision to be honest HA setup leaves that one skill LA setup far behind in real content.

Zezin

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Well, technically, the "traditional" play style of single player Elder Scrolls games isn't ideal for an mmo. Just because it isn't your preference doesn't mean ESO was designed this way for no reason.

Eso combat isn’t typical of an mmo either.
Most have auto attacks and tab targeting.
Just because “weaving” is your preference doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue, that many have brought up since 2014 that has kept many players away from the game.

I don't play tap target games, they're boring, if ESO was not action based with animation canceling I would not be here, ESO is the rare outlier in the genre and one of the only options for me and many people who enjoy games the way I do. Using the argument that something is done different in other games is the same as criticizing oranges because they're acidic while avocados are not, pointless.

nokturnihs

Zezin wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Well, technically, the "traditional" play style of single player Elder Scrolls games isn't ideal for an mmo. Just because it isn't your preference doesn't mean ESO was designed this way for no reason.

Eso combat isn’t typical of an mmo either.
Most have auto attacks and tab targeting.
Just because “weaving” is your preference doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue, that many have brought up since 2014 that has kept many players away from the game.

I don't play tap target games, they're boring, if ESO was not action based with animation canceling I would not be here, ESO is the rare outlier in the genre and one of the only options for me and many people who enjoy games the way I do. Using the argument that something is done different in other games is the same as criticizing oranges because they're acidic while avocados are not, pointless.

There are plenty of fun games that are action based (tab targeted is kinda boring for sure) - that said it's the second part, animation cancelling that causes such a disparity. I'd personally like to see it go away. Make light attacks be a skill choice rather than something to do between skills, ramp up the animation playtime so the combat still feels faster paced and the LA/HA argument is gone. It also makes the game look more polished rather than a buggy mess. Most games animation cancelling is a freaking bug...

nokturnihs

Billium813 wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

You are making lots of claims but You are not answering basic questions that needs to be answered if Your claims would be correct.

If light attack rotation is that easy and strong that in real content You could produce decent enough DPS even with just one ability and LA, why would one bar HA setups specifically be so popular? Is everyone suddenly such a big enjoyer of lightning staves and chanelling HA with them?

Why overwhelming majority of people using oakensoul is running with a heavy attack setup? If Your testing is reliable than why aren't there many one bar setups that are not HA based?

If one bar HA are in fact so unquestionably inferior to two bar setups in any given area than why there are certain places where among top 100 parses there is over 90 one bar HA users? Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

My top performing 1bar builds are as follows:
- HA sorc using undaunted unweaver and storm master (regardless of the drivel some people post the nerf to Storm master WILL result in a 20-40% damage nerf for me) - best parse: 60k (parsing is a problem for me. The pain in my hands/body makes it unreliable as I'm not able to stop until the dummy dies and I get worse over time rather than better - this is the problem I have with 2bar rotations.)

Undaunted Unweaver is fine, but it isn't nearly as good as Sergeant's Mail.

Undaunted Unweaver
... you increase the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks against monsters by 1645 for 10 seconds

Sergeant's Mail
... increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks by 645 per stack (4 stack max).

2580 > 1645. It's that simple really.

For Lightning Staff, Sergeant's Mail will add 2805 damage to your Fully Charged Heavy Attack (935 damage to both channel damages and the final hit) over Undaunted Unweaver. That's fairly substantial considering channel damage is your single best damage source for your build.

The nerf to Storm Master may impact your overall build more because Undaunted Unweaver isn't very good; making Storm Master much more pronounced. However, the nerf to Storm Master should not affect any build -40%. I've tested it quiet thoroughly; the uptime decreases from ~95% uptime to ~66% uptime (and that's only with Thief Mundus, no other sources of Crit Chance). For Storm Master, I'm seeing about -17% damage drop. Considering Storm Master isn't even that good in the first place, it's a negligible hit to HA builds on the whole and most players using Storm Master won't even notice a difference.

No doubt. However haven't been using sergeants because Storm Masters uptime (far more forgiving on timing) only averages about 80% or maybe less for me. I play controller. The handling of controller inputs is very different from MKB and while that's inherently worse as far as parsing, etc goes it's also what my hands can do. I can't play ANY games with mouse and keyboard that require me to do the WASD+ mouse thing anymore. When I was younger i was great at them but haven't for 13+ years now.