The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist
-
I see many people here fighting for HA not for themselves but in support of others. The other side is fighting just for themselves. Its very selfish. It makes me sad.
10 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭LeeLooWasHere wrote: »But that's beside the point, the point is why make those weak heavy attacks builds even weaker?? Bruh, that's just weird LOL
Probably because no influencer made a video so they don't know such easy light attack builds are possible??
As @Tradewind already asked, if HA is so super strong then why dont all those light attack players who do as little or less damage as those oaken builds don't just switch to oaken builds instead of calling for Zenimax to nerf others?Fun fact, my guildmate just got her first HM using this build (talking about one skill light attack God). She was 5th dps in that vKA run and everyone was happy for her, no toxic people criticising her build or trying to make her feel bad. That's how I heard about this thread LOL
And this is what the game should be about, discussing good ideas, having fun together and building nice communities, not about envy and trying to bring others down, there is no MMO without people. Because of all that toxicity for many ESO is just a single-player game and it shouldn't be this way
Like I told you before, some players are indeed very good at HA. They are almost as good as top-tier 2-bar elite players. Zenimax will nerf it because:
Developer Comment:
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.
"we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds" HA build are not better, they are close to high end builds. Zenimax need to make one bad build even worse because: "They are close".
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on May 14, 2023 3:10PM4 -
LeeLooWasHere wrote: »But that's beside the point, the point is why make those weak heavy attacks builds even weaker?? Bruh, that's just weird LOL
Probably because no influencer made a video so they don't know such easy light attack builds are possible??
As @Tradewind already asked, if HA is so super strong then why dont all those light attack players who do as little or less damage as those oaken builds don't just switch to oaken builds instead of calling for Zenimax to nerf others?Fun fact, my guildmate just got her first HM using this build (talking about one skill light attack God). She was 5th dps in that vKA run and everyone was happy for her, no toxic people criticising her build or trying to make her feel bad. That's how I heard about this thread LOL
And this is what the game should be about, discussing good ideas, having fun together and building nice communities, not about envy and trying to bring others down, there is no MMO without people. Because of all that toxicity for many ESO is just a single-player game and it shouldn't be this way
Like I told you before, some players are indeed very good at HA. They are almost as good as top-tier 2-bar elite players. Zenimax will nerf it because:
Developer Comment:
Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.
"we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds" HA build are not better, they are close to high end builds. Zenimax need to make one bad build even worse because: "They are close".
Yes, we saw how ''close'' they are LOL I play and often check logs myself and that data is true.
5 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭LeeLooWasHere wrote: »
Yes, we saw how ''close'' they are LOL I play and often check logs myself and that data is true.
Sadly it is what it is.
3 -
Ph1p✭✭✭✭✭
Actually, many players do, precisely because HA builds are stronger than what they can do with LA setups. Tradewind asked why top-tier players don't switch to Oaken builds, but they actually do as well. And having tried out content both ways, they mostly agree that it is often immensely easier with Oakensoul setups.LeeLooWasHere wrote: »As @Tradewind already asked, if HA is so super strong then why dont all those light attack players who do as little or less damage as those oaken builds don't just switch to oaken builds instead of calling for Zenimax to nerf others?
I think it's weird to hear that HA builds are weak, just because some elite DD can parse 130k and a beginner on Oakensoul can't. As I said before, players of all levels use them exactly because they are so strong and I like how it has brought more people into veteran content. But the magnitude of the change is also why some people argue for balancing changes.LeeLooWasHere wrote: »[...] why make those weak heavy attacks builds even weaker?? Bruh, that's just weird LOL
I couldn't agree more with you! First, because of the positive mindset your guild exemplifies. Second, because it suggests that there isn't as much toxicity as people sometimes claim. If you rise above the loudest voices, which yell about massive nerfs or accuse people of envy and elitism, I think we find that most communities have supportive and nuanced views about HA builds.LeeLooWasHere wrote: »Fun fact, my guildmate just got her first HM using this build. She was 5th dps in that vKA run and everyone was happy for her, no toxic people criticising her build or trying to make her feel bad. That's how I heard about this thread LOL
And this is what the game should be about, discussing good ideas, having fun together and building nice communities, not about envy and trying to bring others down, there is no MMO without people. Because of all that toxicity for many ESO is just a single-player game and it shouldn't be this way
EDIT: I misunderstood part of the last quote and removed a small joke that no longer applies.Edited by Ph1p on May 14, 2023 5:07PM4 -
loveeso✭✭✭✭LeeLooWasHere wrote: »As @Tradewind already asked, if HA is so super strong then why dont all those light attack players who do as little or less damage as those oaken builds don't just switch to oaken builds instead of calling for Zenimax to nerf others?
Actually, many players do, precisely because HA builds are stronger than what they can do with LA setups. Tradewind asked why top-tier players don't switch to Oaken builds, but they actually do as well. And having tried out content both ways, they mostly agree that it is often immensely easier with Oakensoul setups.
That's because they try to copy meta builds made for end-game players by end-game players and they don't know how to use them. If they knew that they could just have light-attack builds that are as easy to play as those heavy-attack builds and can even do more damage then they would be also switching to them... but they don't know. However, everyone knows that they can now do decent DPS with a HA build because these builds have been popularised. If the easy LA builds are popularised by streamers at some point, they will be more popular than HA builds because of all the toxicity people playing HA get from in-game trolls.
I think it's weird to hear that HA builds are weak, just because some elite DD can parse 130k and a beginner on Oakensoul can't. As I said before, players of all levels use them exactly because they are so strong and I like how it has brought more people into veteran content. But the magnitude of the change is also why some people argue for balancing changes.LeeLooWasHere wrote: »[...] why make those weak heavy attacks builds even weaker?? Bruh, that's just weird LOL
Please read the whole thread before posting (for everyone's convenience, I added updates with links to all relevant posts to the original post). This has already been discussed and it has been shown without a doubt that HA builds achieve lower DPS than LA builds both for the best players (see the posts showing all the data in this thread), for the mid-tier players (see the tanky 7-skill LA build that gets up to 120k without any sustain problems, also earlier in this thread), and for those who need or want to take it easy (e.g. my braindead-simple One-Skill LA God, also in this thread). I'm talking about PvE. In PvP HA builds are a joke. Why should HA builds be made even weaker in PvE?
I couldn't agree more with you! First, because you just showed that HA builds are "truly good and strong" even in trial hard modesLeeLooWasHere wrote: »Fun fact, my guildmate just got her first HM using this build. She was 5th dps in that vKA run and everyone was happy for her, no toxic people criticising her build or trying to make her feel bad. That's how I heard about this thread LOL
And this is what the game should be about, discussing good ideas, having fun together and building nice communities, not about envy and trying to bring others down, there is no MMO without people. Because of all that toxicity for many ESO is just a single-player game and it shouldn't be this way
.
You misunderstood. @LeeLooWasHere clearly meant that her guildie used my "One-Skill LA God" (very happy to hear that! thanks for sharing
) which is a light-attack build where you just press two buttons and use one skill 
so what she did show is that it's the braindead-simple LA builds that are "truly good and strong even in trial hard modes" Edited by loveeso on May 14, 2023 3:48PMMMOs: ESO (PS & PC), GW2 (😍) & Souls/Elden (😍)4 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭
Actually, many players do, precisely because HA builds are stronger than what they can do with LA setups. Tradewind asked why top-tier players don't switch to Oaken builds, but they actually do as well. And having tried out content both ways, they mostly agree that it is often immensely easier with Oakensoul setups.LeeLooWasHere wrote: »As @Tradewind already asked, if HA is so super strong then why dont all those light attack players who do as little or less damage as those oaken builds don't just switch to oaken builds instead of calling for Zenimax to nerf others?
Was not Oakensoul created (and sold in High-Isle) to be easier than 2 bars? It is easier, but is it better? No. Oakensoul is better only for some who struggle with 2 bars. Nothing more.Edited by Tradewind on May 14, 2023 4:02PM4 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭LeeLooWasHere wrote: »
So why doesn't every HA player just switch to this supposedly super easy build when their build gets nerfed to the ground in the next patchLeeLooWasHere wrote: »Why limit yourself to only 80k when you can just use the "one-skill light-attack god" build that the OP posted earlier in this thread? Just press two same buttons and get 87k LOL?
Probably because no influencer made a video so they don't know such easy light attack builds are possible??
As @Tradewind already asked, if HA is so super strong then why dont all those light attack players who do as little or less damage as those oaken builds don't just switch to oaken builds instead of calling for Zenimax to nerf others?
But that's beside the point, the point is why make those weak heavy attacks builds even weaker?? Bruh, that's just weird LOL
Fun fact, my guildmate just got her first HM using this build (talking about one skill light attack God). She was 5th dps in that vKA run and everyone was happy for her, no toxic people criticising her build or trying to make her feel bad. That's how I heard about this thread LOL
And this is what the game should be about, discussing good ideas, having fun together and building nice communities, not about envy and trying to bring others down, there is no MMO without people. Because of all that toxicity for many ESO is just a single-player game and it shouldn't be this way
Belive me barely anyone who have seen this "such easy light attack build" have started to widely use it after it was presented to him/her in this thread. Everyone with some basic knowledge about the game knows it's just a gimmick that won't be effective in many real content applications due to how many limitations it have compared to HA setup. You can just use HA setups and end up with way better results. Also there have been plentyof easy setups presented throughout the years both light and heavy attack ones but only after oakensoul arrival suddenly game started to see so massive increase of players switching to one and the same setup that is not producing top results on a dummy.
Belive it or not but there are people who simply don't like to play with HA setup and despite not being the top on LA setup theys till preffer it but HA setup is literally no brained for everyone in their bracket there isn;t even competition between streanght level of HA vs LA setup for average player, HA just dominates in that bracket. I think HA players would be equally unhappy if they would be getting advice to switch to LA setups if they don't pull enough numbers with HA setup.
Heavy attack setups currently are not weak. Single target DPS is not the only factor that matters when it comes to defining overall strenght of the setup and fact that HA setups loose to LA setups in that one particular category won't change the fact that they win in literally every other category.
Fun fact, for every one player like Your guildmate there will be hundereds of players that got their first HM with HA setup. We are discussing ideas here, mainly the idea that one bar HA setups are overperforming in their current state.
1 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭I think HA players would be equally unhappy if they would be getting advice to switch to LA setups if they don't pull enough numbers with HA setup.LeeLooWasHere wrote: »
So why doesn't every HA player just switch to this supposedly super easy build when their build gets nerfed to the ground in the next patchLeeLooWasHere wrote: »Why limit yourself to only 80k when you can just use the "one-skill light-attack god" build that the OP posted earlier in this thread? Just press two same buttons and get 87k LOL?
Probably because no influencer made a video so they don't know such easy light attack builds are possible??
As @Tradewind already asked, if HA is so super strong then why dont all those light attack players who do as little or less damage as those oaken builds don't just switch to oaken builds instead of calling for Zenimax to nerf others?
But that's beside the point, the point is why make those weak heavy attacks builds even weaker?? Bruh, that's just weird LOL
Fun fact, my guildmate just got her first HM using this build (talking about one skill light attack God). She was 5th dps in that vKA run and everyone was happy for her, no toxic people criticising her build or trying to make her feel bad. That's how I heard about this thread LOL
And this is what the game should be about, discussing good ideas, having fun together and building nice communities, not about envy and trying to bring others down, there is no MMO without people. Because of all that toxicity for many ESO is just a single-player game and it shouldn't be this way
Belive me barely anyone who have seen this "such easy light attack build" have started to widely use it after it was presented to him/her in this thread. Everyone with some basic knowledge about the game knows it's just a gimmick that won't be effective in many real content applications due to how many limitations it have compared to HA setup. You can just use HA setups and end up with way better results. Also there have been plentyof easy setups presented throughout the years both light and heavy attack ones but only after oakensoul arrival suddenly game started to see so massive increase of players switching to one and the same setup that is not producing top results on a dummy.
Belive it or not but there are people who simply don't like to play with HA setup and despite not being the top on LA setup theys till preffer it but HA setup is literally no brained for everyone in their bracket there isn;t even competition between streanght level of HA vs LA setup for average player, HA just dominates in that bracket.
Heavy attack setups currently are not weak. Single target DPS is not the only factor that matters when it comes to defining overall strenght of the setup and fact that HA setups loose to LA setups in that one particular category won't change the fact that they win in literally every other category.
Fun fact, for every one player like Your guildmate there will be hundereds of players that got their first HM with HA setup. We are discussing ideas here, mainly the idea that one bar HA setups are overperforming in their current state.
If I could, I would switch to 2 bars without any hesitation. However, I cannot. I simply cannot achieve more DPS with 2 bars, and I know without a doubt that 2 bars are way better and have more DPS.
Most players who use the HA build do so because they are unable to perform better in 2 bars. [snip] Sad!
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on May 14, 2023 4:20PM6 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think HA players would be equally unhappy if they would be getting advice to switch to LA setups if they don't pull enough numbers with HA setup.LeeLooWasHere wrote: »
So why doesn't every HA player just switch to this supposedly super easy build when their build gets nerfed to the ground in the next patchLeeLooWasHere wrote: »Why limit yourself to only 80k when you can just use the "one-skill light-attack god" build that the OP posted earlier in this thread? Just press two same buttons and get 87k LOL?
Probably because no influencer made a video so they don't know such easy light attack builds are possible??
As @Tradewind already asked, if HA is so super strong then why dont all those light attack players who do as little or less damage as those oaken builds don't just switch to oaken builds instead of calling for Zenimax to nerf others?
But that's beside the point, the point is why make those weak heavy attacks builds even weaker?? Bruh, that's just weird LOL
Fun fact, my guildmate just got her first HM using this build (talking about one skill light attack God). She was 5th dps in that vKA run and everyone was happy for her, no toxic people criticising her build or trying to make her feel bad. That's how I heard about this thread LOL
And this is what the game should be about, discussing good ideas, having fun together and building nice communities, not about envy and trying to bring others down, there is no MMO without people. Because of all that toxicity for many ESO is just a single-player game and it shouldn't be this way
Belive me barely anyone who have seen this "such easy light attack build" have started to widely use it after it was presented to him/her in this thread. Everyone with some basic knowledge about the game knows it's just a gimmick that won't be effective in many real content applications due to how many limitations it have compared to HA setup. You can just use HA setups and end up with way better results. Also there have been plentyof easy setups presented throughout the years both light and heavy attack ones but only after oakensoul arrival suddenly game started to see so massive increase of players switching to one and the same setup that is not producing top results on a dummy.
Belive it or not but there are people who simply don't like to play with HA setup and despite not being the top on LA setup theys till preffer it but HA setup is literally no brained for everyone in their bracket there isn;t even competition between streanght level of HA vs LA setup for average player, HA just dominates in that bracket.
Heavy attack setups currently are not weak. Single target DPS is not the only factor that matters when it comes to defining overall strenght of the setup and fact that HA setups loose to LA setups in that one particular category won't change the fact that they win in literally every other category.
Fun fact, for every one player like Your guildmate there will be hundereds of players that got their first HM with HA setup. We are discussing ideas here, mainly the idea that one bar HA setups are overperforming in their current state.
If I could, I would switch to 2 bars without any hesitation. However, I cannot. I simply cannot achieve more DPS with 2 bars, and I know without a doubt that 2 bars are way better and have more DPS.
Most players who use the HA build do so because they are unable to perform better in 2 bars. And now, isn't it ironic that Zenimax will be helping them to perform even worse? Sad!
Are we really ignoring the fact that Zenimax massively helped these players in the first place? It's like getting a million dollar lottery win and than complaining when IRS cuts some percentage of it. It's still a massive win.
Also many people is unable to perform better with two bars because of how high stardards were set by one bar HA setups.5 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭Are we really ignoring the fact that Zenimax massively helped these players in the first place? It's like getting a million dollar lottery win and than complaining when IRS cuts some percentage of it. It's still a massive win.
Also many people is unable to perform better with two bars because of how high stardards were set by one bar HA setups.
If players are struggling in 2-bars, they can always switch to HA and maybe perform better. I say "maybe" because some players will indeed perform better with HA, while others will not, as they are only worse than other players with 2-bars.
If you're a bad tank, will you not switch to DD/Healer? Or if you're a bad DD, will you not switch to Tank/Healer or whatever? So why do you really believe that players do not have the right to change from 2 bars to 1 bar and complete any achievement like any other role, class, or number of bars? It doesn't make any sense.
As long as they know what to do, do decent and fair DPS, and are not better than top-tier elites, then why not?
Edited by Tradewind on May 14, 2023 4:39PM5 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Are we really ignoring the fact that Zenimax massively helped these players in the first place? It's like getting a million dollar lottery win and than complaining when IRS cuts some percentage of it. It's still a massive win.
Also many people is unable to perform better with two bars because of how high stardards were set by one bar HA setups.
If players are struggling in 2-bars, they can always switch to HA and maybe perform better. I say "maybe" because some players will indeed perform better with HA, while others will not, as they are only worse than other players with 2-bars.
If you're a bad tank, will you not switch to DD/Healer? Or if you're a bad DD, will you not switch to Tank/Healer or whatever? So why do you really believe that players do not have the right to change from 2 bars to 1 bar and complete any achievement like any other role, class, or number of bars? It doesn't make any sense.
As long as they know what to do, do decent and fair DPS, and are not better than top-tier elites, then why not?
What about players that simply don't like HA playstyle? And it's not "maybe", for everyone who is struggling with two bar setups one bar HA will provide better results.
If You're bad at anything You want to do You should first and foremost try to improve. Nobody is saying that one bar players should be excluded from doing everything in the game but due to simplicity of these setups some of the harder parts of content stopped to be hard. Harder content should be equally hard for every setups and currently it isn't.
Thing is very often they don't need to know what to do on the same level as two bar players are required to know since one bar HA setups forgives way more mistakes and is way more simple to play. One bar Ha setups are still ON AVERAGE better than two bar dynamic setups. Top tier players are extreme minority of highly skilled and highly organised individuals, they cannot be the baseline to balance every content around.0 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭What about players that simply don't like HA playstyle? And it's not "maybe", for everyone who is struggling with two bar setups one bar HA will provide better results.
If You're bad at anything You want to do You should first and foremost try to improve. Nobody is saying that one bar players should be excluded from doing everything in the game but due to simplicity of these setups some of the harder parts of content stopped to be hard. Harder content should be equally hard for every setups and currently it isn't.
Thing is very often they don't need to know what to do on the same level as two bar players are required to know since one bar HA setups forgives way more mistakes and is way more simple to play. One bar Ha setups are still ON AVERAGE better than two bar dynamic setups. Top tier players are extreme minority of highly skilled and highly organised individuals, they cannot be the baseline to balance every content around.
oO If they struggle in 2 bars and don't like HA, then they have to try other roles, no!?1 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
oO If they struggle in 2 bars and don't like HA, then they have to try other roles, no!?
No. I hate tanking and healing. So I'll just muddle along with 1bar Oak and class skills plus weapon spammable.
______________________________________________________
But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending.
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- three accounts, many alts....0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭What about players that simply don't like HA playstyle? And it's not "maybe", for everyone who is struggling with two bar setups one bar HA will provide better results.
If You're bad at anything You want to do You should first and foremost try to improve. Nobody is saying that one bar players should be excluded from doing everything in the game but due to simplicity of these setups some of the harder parts of content stopped to be hard. Harder content should be equally hard for every setups and currently it isn't.
Thing is very often they don't need to know what to do on the same level as two bar players are required to know since one bar HA setups forgives way more mistakes and is way more simple to play. One bar Ha setups are still ON AVERAGE better than two bar dynamic setups. Top tier players are extreme minority of highly skilled and highly organised individuals, they cannot be the baseline to balance every content around.
oO If they struggle in 2 bars and don't like HA, then they have to try other roles, no!?
Same could be said about people who were struggling before oakensoul era. If they were not producing enough DPS and didn't like LA weaving they could just switch to tanks or healers. Let's remove oakensoul and people who will struggle can just become healers or tanks right? Both statements are disingenous and really bring no solution.0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If it would this thread wouldnt have 25 pages and developer wouldn't decide to make a change. Fact that it's perfect in Your opinion doesn't mean it's perfect in general or that all people think the same as You.Edited by Galeriano on May 14, 2023 5:37PM0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Some comments on the @loveeso summary a couple posts above:- Overall, great work.
- 81 + 9 is not exactly 100.
- Almost the whole discussion is about lightning attack HA builds. Observing that other HA builds do lousy DPS is not very relevant.
- Nothing will fully settle the disagreement as to whether people with non-elite clicking skills should be allowed to do the toughest content. There will always be elite clickers greatly upset that lesser clickers are allowed into their club.
spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.
That is not entirely true. Not everyone can achieve close numbers with a HA build like Top-Tiel LA players, because it is not as simple as just pressing one button to get high numbers.
I just did this parse for ya, if you can call it a parse lol. I just held down 1 button for 4 and half minutes. My cat could step on the mouse button and get the same result. Theres 0 skill involved.
Also note that this is Warden, Sorc can get 80k
And this gets even better in actual content with multiple targets as 80% of this parse is aoe damage. All that with 29k HP, no pots use and 0 sustain issues. You can clear any content with it holding down 1 button, except trial trifectas. If thats not OP then I dont know what is.
But a team with 8 DDs like that wouldn't do 8x that damage, as they wouldn't do the DDs' share of raid buffing.2 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
But I despise the HA play style. Ick.______________________________________________________
But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending.
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- three accounts, many alts....1 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Some comments on the @loveeso summary a couple posts above:- Overall, great work.
- 81 + 9 is not exactly 100.
- Almost the whole discussion is about lightning attack HA builds. Observing that other HA builds do lousy DPS is not very relevant.
- Nothing will fully settle the disagreement as to whether people with non-elite clicking skills should be allowed to do the toughest content. There will always be elite clickers greatly upset that lesser clickers are allowed into their club.
spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.
That is not entirely true. Not everyone can achieve close numbers with a HA build like Top-Tiel LA players, because it is not as simple as just pressing one button to get high numbers.
I just did this parse for ya, if you can call it a parse lol. I just held down 1 button for 4 and half minutes. My cat could step on the mouse button and get the same result. Theres 0 skill involved.
Also note that this is Warden, Sorc can get 80k
And this gets even better in actual content with multiple targets as 80% of this parse is aoe damage. All that with 29k HP, no pots use and 0 sustain issues. You can clear any content with it holding down 1 button, except trial trifectas. If thats not OP then I dont know what is.
But a team with 8 DDs like that wouldn't do 8x that damage, as they wouldn't do the DDs' share of raid buffing.
Buffs get applied to everyone. If all 8 DDs would just HA then you can melt anything. You can clear EVERY vet trial while holding down only 1 button.0 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire.
Yes. You must have 75k-80k dps. That trial is years old. Nobody wants a 60k DPS, therefore the minimum DPS that a heavy attack build can be nerfed to is 75-80k. Not the 60k proposed earlier in the thread that keeps being floated around as a standard it should hit because it's good enough for vet. It's not.
You completly missed the context of what I said. 60k on a trial dummy is not accpeted in vet sunspire not because of requirements of other players but because of requirements of the trial itself. If You have a group of people who are doing 60k DPS on a trial dummy they will just fail DPS checks in that particular trial because 60k on a dummy does not transfer into 60k in a trial.
Not true. Can you give examples which dps checks would they fail. 60k on 21mil dummy = about 30k self buffed. But even with minimal buffs that are present even in pug groups its still gonna bump them up to 40k.
In fact EVERY trial can be completed with 40k dps if you actually doing that much in content. Can anyone name 1 fight where it would fail dps check? People need to stop gatekeeping.2 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire.
Yes. You must have 75k-80k dps. That trial is years old. Nobody wants a 60k DPS, therefore the minimum DPS that a heavy attack build can be nerfed to is 75-80k. Not the 60k proposed earlier in the thread that keeps being floated around as a standard it should hit because it's good enough for vet. It's not.
You completly missed the context of what I said. 60k on a trial dummy is not accpeted in vet sunspire not because of requirements of other players but because of requirements of the trial itself. If You have a group of people who are doing 60k DPS on a trial dummy they will just fail DPS checks in that particular trial because 60k on a dummy does not transfer into 60k in a trial.
Not true. Can you give examples which dps checks would they fail. 60k on 21mil dummy = about 30k self buffed. But even with minimal buffs that are present even in pug groups its still gonna bump them up to 40k.
In fact EVERY trial can be completed with 40k dps if you actually doing that much in content. Can anyone name 1 fight where it would fail dps check? People need to stop gatekeeping.
Person who is doing 60k on 21M trial dummy will not be doing 30k selfbuffed. It will be more around 20-25k and in real content it can even drop down when things go south. 60k on a trial dummy means someone is heavily lacking some key components to deal dmg and it will be noticable in real content and full group of people like that can not handle wither soft or hard DPS checks.0 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭vSS HM I am the one in green with HA and I managed to achieve an amazing 34k score in the first boss. (I was the only one using HA).
Edit:
HA really needs to be nerfed because all players who use it are as good as the best players in this build. And with 34k, I am almost in 2nd place and close to the top DPS.
edit2:
I believe that the Templar, with 38k, should request a nerf for the Warden dps. Both classes use two bars, but the Warden has 52% more DPS, which is not fair to the Templar. This is what people refer to as balancing the game, isn't it?
DK only has 42k?! (and only 23% more then HA) Okay, there must be a bug with the addon. If not, nerf HA please.
Something is not right. DK has only 23% more DPS than HA and 38% less DPS than Warden. There seems to be a significant discrepancy here.
Edited by Tradewind on May 14, 2023 6:56PM3 -
Ph1p✭✭✭✭✭
Please don't assume I haven't read your previous argumentsPlease read the whole thread before posting (for everyone's convenience, I added updates with links to all relevant posts to the original post). This has already been discussed and it has been shown without a doubt that HA builds achieve lower DPS than LA builds both for the best players (see the posts showing all the data in this thread), for the mid-tier players (see the tanky 7-skill LA build that gets up to 120k without any sustain problems, also earlier in this thread), and for those who need or want to take it easy (e.g. my braindead-simple One-Skill LA God, also in this thread). I'm talking about PvE. In PvP HA builds are a joke. Why should HA builds be made even weaker in PvE?. And you obviously haven't read mine, since I clarified multiple times that I am not opposed to HA builds and do not necessarily support nerfing them.
While I appreciate your data-driven approach to this, I think you underestimate the effort it takes for some people to weave, whether it's due to inexperience, physical ability, connection issues, and so on. Your "tanky 7-skill LA build" and the "one-skill LA god" rely on weaving light attacks, which you excel at. But you're not a mid or lower tier player if you parse 120k with a 0.1 weaving average. Still, it's great that you are contributing alternatives, though neither of them is comparable to the simplicity of HA rotations. And neither gives you the trifecta of single-target damage, AOE damage, and survivability that HA builds can.
Again, I find it strange that we are discussing a setup geared towards low and mid tiers, and make a big point that it is weaker in comparison to top-tier, meta LA parses. I mean, it is weaker by definition... and everything else is, too. You have shown a vast analysis of log data, but what's the value of comparing HA builds or anything else to literally the top of the top of top of the leaderboards?0 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire.
Yes. You must have 75k-80k dps. That trial is years old. Nobody wants a 60k DPS, therefore the minimum DPS that a heavy attack build can be nerfed to is 75-80k. Not the 60k proposed earlier in the thread that keeps being floated around as a standard it should hit because it's good enough for vet. It's not.
You completly missed the context of what I said. 60k on a trial dummy is not accpeted in vet sunspire not because of requirements of other players but because of requirements of the trial itself. If You have a group of people who are doing 60k DPS on a trial dummy they will just fail DPS checks in that particular trial because 60k on a dummy does not transfer into 60k in a trial.
Not true. Can you give examples which dps checks would they fail. 60k on 21mil dummy = about 30k self buffed. But even with minimal buffs that are present even in pug groups its still gonna bump them up to 40k.
In fact EVERY trial can be completed with 40k dps if you actually doing that much in content. Can anyone name 1 fight where it would fail dps check? People need to stop gatekeeping.
Person who is doing 60k on 21M trial dummy will not be doing 30k selfbuffed. It will be more around 20-25k and in real content it can even drop down when things go south. 60k on a trial dummy means someone is heavily lacking some key components to deal dmg and it will be noticable in real content and full group of people like that can not handle wither soft or hard DPS checks.
I was talking about oaken HA. Its about half self buffed compared 21mil. I get 100k on trial dummy but 50k on 3 mil0 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭vSS HM I am the one in green with HA and I managed to achieve an amazing 34k score in the first boss. (I was the only one using HA).
Edit:
HA really needs to be nerfed because all players who use it are as good as the best players in this build. And with 34k, I am almost in 2nd place and close to the top DPS.
edit2:
I believe that the Templar, with 38k, should request a nerf for the Warden dps. Both classes use two bars, but the Warden has 52% more DPS, which is not fair to the Templar. This is what people refer to as balancing the game, isn't it?
DK only has 42k?! (and only 23% more then HA) Okay, there must be a bug with the addon. If not, nerf HA please.
Something is not right. DK has only 23% more DPS than HA and 38% less DPS than Warden. There seems to be a significant discrepancy here.
Heres my oaken HA parse on vDSR last boss
Oh and thats only 25% of group dps, not OP at all lol
0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire.
Yes. You must have 75k-80k dps. That trial is years old. Nobody wants a 60k DPS, therefore the minimum DPS that a heavy attack build can be nerfed to is 75-80k. Not the 60k proposed earlier in the thread that keeps being floated around as a standard it should hit because it's good enough for vet. It's not.
You completly missed the context of what I said. 60k on a trial dummy is not accpeted in vet sunspire not because of requirements of other players but because of requirements of the trial itself. If You have a group of people who are doing 60k DPS on a trial dummy they will just fail DPS checks in that particular trial because 60k on a dummy does not transfer into 60k in a trial.
Not true. Can you give examples which dps checks would they fail. 60k on 21mil dummy = about 30k self buffed. But even with minimal buffs that are present even in pug groups its still gonna bump them up to 40k.
In fact EVERY trial can be completed with 40k dps if you actually doing that much in content. Can anyone name 1 fight where it would fail dps check? People need to stop gatekeeping.
Person who is doing 60k on 21M trial dummy will not be doing 30k selfbuffed. It will be more around 20-25k and in real content it can even drop down when things go south. 60k on a trial dummy means someone is heavily lacking some key components to deal dmg and it will be noticable in real content and full group of people like that can not handle wither soft or hard DPS checks.
I was talking about oaken HA. Its about half self buffed compared 21mil. I get 100k on trial dummy but 50k on 3 mil
Yes but the thing is that setup baseline is set around 75-80k so if someone is getting 60k it means something went wrong so that person will very possibly notice more significant drop in real content.0 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire.
Yes. You must have 75k-80k dps. That trial is years old. Nobody wants a 60k DPS, therefore the minimum DPS that a heavy attack build can be nerfed to is 75-80k. Not the 60k proposed earlier in the thread that keeps being floated around as a standard it should hit because it's good enough for vet. It's not.
You completly missed the context of what I said. 60k on a trial dummy is not accpeted in vet sunspire not because of requirements of other players but because of requirements of the trial itself. If You have a group of people who are doing 60k DPS on a trial dummy they will just fail DPS checks in that particular trial because 60k on a dummy does not transfer into 60k in a trial.
Not true. Can you give examples which dps checks would they fail. 60k on 21mil dummy = about 30k self buffed. But even with minimal buffs that are present even in pug groups its still gonna bump them up to 40k.
In fact EVERY trial can be completed with 40k dps if you actually doing that much in content. Can anyone name 1 fight where it would fail dps check? People need to stop gatekeeping.
Person who is doing 60k on 21M trial dummy will not be doing 30k selfbuffed. It will be more around 20-25k and in real content it can even drop down when things go south. 60k on a trial dummy means someone is heavily lacking some key components to deal dmg and it will be noticable in real content and full group of people like that can not handle wither soft or hard DPS checks.
I was talking about oaken HA. Its about half self buffed compared 21mil. I get 100k on trial dummy but 50k on 3 mil
Yes but the thing is that setup baseline is set around 75-80k so if someone is getting 60k it means something went wrong so that person will very possibly notice more significant drop in real content.
I guess youre right. But people just need to follow the build then. The game shouldnt be balanced after someones RP build.1 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭vSS HM I am the one in green with HA and I managed to achieve an amazing 34k score in the first boss. (I was the only one using HA).
Edit:
HA really needs to be nerfed because all players who use it are as good as the best players in this build. And with 34k, I am almost in 2nd place and close to the top DPS.
edit2:
I believe that the Templar, with 38k, should request a nerf for the Warden dps. Both classes use two bars, but the Warden has 52% more DPS, which is not fair to the Templar. This is what people refer to as balancing the game, isn't it?
DK only has 42k?! (and only 23% more then HA) Okay, there must be a bug with the addon. If not, nerf HA please.
Something is not right. DK has only 23% more DPS than HA and 38% less DPS than Warden. There seems to be a significant discrepancy here.
Heres my oaken HA parse on vDSR last boss
Oh and thats only 25% of group dps, not OP at all lol
So i did 63% of all grp DPS? loooooooool0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭vSS HM I am the one in green with HA and I managed to achieve an amazing 34k score in the first boss. (I was the only one using HA).
Edit:
HA really needs to be nerfed because all players who use it are as good as the best players in this build. And with 34k, I am almost in 2nd place and close to the top DPS.
edit2:
I believe that the Templar, with 38k, should request a nerf for the Warden dps. Both classes use two bars, but the Warden has 52% more DPS, which is not fair to the Templar. This is what people refer to as balancing the game, isn't it?
DK only has 42k?! (and only 23% more then HA) Okay, there must be a bug with the addon. If not, nerf HA please.
Something is not right. DK has only 23% more DPS than HA and 38% less DPS than Warden. There seems to be a significant discrepancy here.
Heres my oaken HA parse on vDSR last boss
Oh and thats only 25% of group dps, not OP at all lol
So i did 63% of all grp DPS? loooooooool
No, 63% of your total DPS was to the boss.Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger61,215 achievement points0
This discussion has been closed.