Rolling Back the HA Nerfs: A More Balanced Solution for All Players

Katlefiya

Galeriano wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

On my first ever parse on a trial dummy not even knowing the rotation in mostly purple Storm Masters and Sergent's Mail I parsed 72K. That's rather broken for somebody that doesn't even know how to DPS who just refreshed his skills on cool down in no particular order and HA attacked when things are counting down. I suspect that if I dial in my rotation and practice the numbers will get much juicier as the devs say. I then ran a random normal dungeon for further testing and did over 70% of the groups total DPS.

So, since you explicitly chose to post in this thread, did you even try the easy One-Skill LA God build that loveeso used as a comparison? How can you state that the HA build is "rather broken", without knowing how good you would parse with that other build?

That build used as comparison is way weaker and far from calling it a God build. First of all it requires LA weaving to reach similar DPS as holding one button. While LA weaving with one ability isn't hard it would still be an issue for many. Holding a button is way less problematic. If You would add one skill to HA setup it would be already outparsing that one skill LA setup. HA setup is dealing all its damage as AoE when that LA setup is almost pure single target. HA setup is basically always at full resource pool while in real content You may start to struggle with You stamina sustain on that one skill LA setup.

One skill LA setup pales in comparision. It's not even a comparision to be honest HA setup leaves that one skill LA setup far behind in real content.

What good is AOE damage on a trial dummy?

Anyway, it doesnt matter. Single target DPS is the limiting factor on pushing score, as that is what takes down bosses. Groups that have enough DPS to push score, dont focus adds. Traditionally they killed them with cleave AOE damage, because HA with lightning staves wasn't a viable alternative. Now it is. Nothing wrong with that.

Numbers for AOE DPS dont matter, they are simply pass/fail. Either you kill the adds with AOEbefore they can hurt the group, or you need to turn and focus the adds to prevent it.

CP5

nokturnihs wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Well, technically, the "traditional" play style of single player Elder Scrolls games isn't ideal for an mmo. Just because it isn't your preference doesn't mean ESO was designed this way for no reason.

Eso combat isn’t typical of an mmo either.
Most have auto attacks and tab targeting.
Just because “weaving” is your preference doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue, that many have brought up since 2014 that has kept many players away from the game.

I don't play tap target games, they're boring, if ESO was not action based with animation canceling I would not be here, ESO is the rare outlier in the genre and one of the only options for me and many people who enjoy games the way I do. Using the argument that something is done different in other games is the same as criticizing oranges because they're acidic while avocados are not, pointless.

There are plenty of fun games that are action based (tab targeted is kinda boring for sure) - that said it's the second part, animation cancelling that causes such a disparity. I'd personally like to see it go away. Make light attacks be a skill choice rather than something to do between skills, ramp up the animation playtime so the combat still feels faster paced and the LA/HA argument is gone. It also makes the game look more polished rather than a buggy mess. Most games animation cancelling is a freaking bug...

You realize animation canceling is how you can cancel an animation, like say, a heavy attack, in order to do something like block or dodge an incoming attack. In other games where animation canceling doesn't exist, you have to commit to actions, and they're normally a lot more punishing because of that. Would you really be alright no longer being able to respond to things as quickly as you're able to notice them, in favor of having to take whatever comes while you're mid-animation?

Galeriano

Katlefiya wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

On my first ever parse on a trial dummy not even knowing the rotation in mostly purple Storm Masters and Sergent's Mail I parsed 72K. That's rather broken for somebody that doesn't even know how to DPS who just refreshed his skills on cool down in no particular order and HA attacked when things are counting down. I suspect that if I dial in my rotation and practice the numbers will get much juicier as the devs say. I then ran a random normal dungeon for further testing and did over 70% of the groups total DPS.

So, since you explicitly chose to post in this thread, did you even try the easy One-Skill LA God build that loveeso used as a comparison? How can you state that the HA build is "rather broken", without knowing how good you would parse with that other build?

That build used as comparison is way weaker and far from calling it a God build. First of all it requires LA weaving to reach similar DPS as holding one button. While LA weaving with one ability isn't hard it would still be an issue for many. Holding a button is way less problematic. If You would add one skill to HA setup it would be already outparsing that one skill LA setup. HA setup is dealing all its damage as AoE when that LA setup is almost pure single target. HA setup is basically always at full resource pool while in real content You may start to struggle with You stamina sustain on that one skill LA setup.

One skill LA setup pales in comparision. It's not even a comparision to be honest HA setup leaves that one skill LA setup far behind in real content.

What good is AOE damage on a trial dummy?

Anyway, it doesnt matter. Single target DPS is the limiting factor on pushing score, as that is what takes down bosses. Groups that have enough DPS to push score, dont focus adds. Traditionally they killed them with cleave AOE damage, because HA with lightning staves wasn't a viable alternative. Now it is. Nothing wrong with that.

Numbers for AOE DPS dont matter, they are simply pass/fail. Either you kill the adds with AOEbefore they can hurt the group, or you need to turn and focus the adds to prevent it.

Excatly my point. Real content is not a trial dummy.

It does matter a lot. Scorepushing is a minority of a minority of runs so why are we even bringing this into discussion? And even in that subject You are wrong. You know why DK is top tier DD right now in scorepushing teams despite not being number one DPS on single target dummy parses? Because it have the highest AoE dmg while still having decently high single target. AoE damage matters everywhere wheter it's scorepushing or regular runs. In regular runs it matters actually even more because You won't have the privelage to be in group capable to just burn boss down.

So lets just make a quick check of every final boss in DLC trial to see where there are additional enemies and wheter or not You will be able to kill them without focusing them. Almost every DLC vet trial and literally every DLC HM trial have some additional targets on last boss fights that won't die passively if You do not have enough AoE DPS in Your setup. Two bar setups needs to always focus them separately. HA setups not so much. Best example is vAS HM, before one bar HA meta killing mini bosses without even focusing them was impossible now it became a standard in every slightly more optimised team because they will die from lightning stave AoE due to its damage being so massive.

Numbers of AoE matter a lot especially if You can produce them passively. And that is just one of the adventages HA setups have. Unlimited sustain and extreme simplicity of the rotation are the others. Saying that AoE dmg doesn't matter suggest that You need a little bit more knowledge about the actual content.

Tannus15

I've been a sorc main dps for years and right now i'm firmly of the opinion that oakensorc is the best cleave option for sorc dps.

this is more a criticism of sorc than it is of oakensoul.

the PVE balance in this game has been very bad for quite a while now.

it honestly feels like it's balanced around the trial dummy and as long as all classes have roughly the same single target dps no real consideration is given to buffs, debuffs or cleave.

Funnily enough ZoS completely ignore PvP as far as content, yet almost entirely balance skills and sets around it. Pick a lane guys.

End game is full of a bunch of what i think are unintended consequences of balance changes over the years that have never really been thought through as a full system.

For some reason the balance team have decided that melee builds should do 10%+ more damage than ranged builds, even though most of the time we're stacked into melee range anyway.

Putting pen on light armour vs raw damage on medium has meant that light armour is for small group and medium is for trial groups.

If you want the highest dps you need a race with the bonus 258 spell/weapon damage since sustain is so much easier now with hybrid builds, making sustain races like Breton second class citizens.

nightblade dps is crutching on a passive for having a skill slotted that gives a 10% damage buff, making the other morph dead.

sorcs have no other option than going 2 pets with prey after getting everything nerfed except the prey damage buff which got doubled.

don't get me started on taking away 6% to 12% damage done from warden and then giving it back but only if they are holding a frost staff.

Like, what is going on?

This is just someone trying to balance the random buff to empower, which was done at the last minute in U35 after sustained outcry from literally everyone that they had completely killed HA builds. I'm sorry, but a PTS week 5 massive change to empower in a desperate attempt to not push live the worst balance update in the history of the game was always going to have long term issues and i'm surprised it's taken this long for something to change.

They are only now trying to do something with skills like solar barrage which was made useless as a result of the change, and sets like Galenwe are still just trash 1 year later.

ZoS are stuck between a rock and a hard place because they created this nightmare of a mess themselves but to fix it would require some massive changes to classes, skills and sets which they have promised to stop doing because they keep making things worse instead of better.

loveeso

For those interested, just added a recap of anti-HA rhetoric here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631760/thoughts-of-a-random-guy-on-necrom-changes-to-ha-heavy-attack-builds-on-arcanist/p1 (see the latest link at the bottom of the first post) which clearly demonstrates 1. why the HA nerfs tested on the PTS should be rolled back, and 2. why all other classes and weapons should be buffed for the HA play style.

Eliran

Bro you cant compare DPS and you should not.

Brokensouls Ring are Tank + Healer + Super DD + Easy to play = All In One God Class.

Sorry but you cant have it all, want them all in one? sure, but make them under perform in every single category by at least 30%.

lostineternity

loveeso wrote: »

When comparing the highest DPS builds from each play style, LA outperforms HA with 137k DPS compared to HA's 101k DPS (136%). Even when comparing the simplest DPS builds from each play style (one-skill LA vs HA-only), LA still outperforms HA with 86k DPS compared to HA's 83k DPS (for numbers or the One-Skill LA God build, please see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7860932#Comment_7860932).

These results clearly indicate that LA builds are overperforming and that a balance adjustment is needed.

Despite the evidence showing the overperformance of LA builds and the underperformance of HA builds, a vocal anti-HA minority (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7852319) has pushed for a nerf to the already underperforming HA play style. This backlash has resulted in ZOS proposing a change that would make HA even less viable, contrary to the need for balance and fairness in the game.
It's important to consider the facts and avoid making decisions based on emotions or personal preferences. The goal should always be to create an enjoyable and balanced gaming experience for all players, regardless of their preferred play style. While the anti-HA sentiment may be loud, it's important to remember that it doesn't represent the views of the entire community. Quite the opposite. Therefore, a balanced solution that takes all players' needs and preferences into account is the best way forward.

But wait, there is more! The proposed HA nerf would weaken ALL HA builds, regardless of the class or weapon used. This means that the comparisons drawn using a sorcerer wielding a lightning staff, using two pets, and achieving 101k DPS paints a misleading picture. MOST players prefer other classes and weapons so reaching 101k DPS is unachievable for the majority of HA players, no matter their skill level.
In fact, many classes and weapons can only achieve around 50k DPS with heavy attacks. This unbalanced scenario leads to LA builds outperforming HA builds available to those who choose other classes and weapons by a staggering 174% at the high end! It's unfair to suggest that this is a balanced state of the game, especially with the proposed nerf making HA builds even more underperforming.
Therefore, a more balanced solution would be to roll back the HA nerfs currently being tested on the PTS and BUFF the HA play style for all classes and weapons to achieve equal performance. This would address the huge difference in DPS between LA and HA play styles, different classes, different weapons, and make the game more fair for all players.

x To see the details and context that provide a deeper understanding of the current situation, please see the following thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7852319

NB: There seem to be at least one individual who follows myself and others interested in having a rational discussion about HA on these forums and, unfortunately, they frequently spew toxicity, misinformation, and even try to gaslight us all, so if you notice that I don't respond to a post that attacks what I wrote or HA builds in general, please don't assume that I agree with the poster or that their argument makes sense. It's possible that I have them blocked and am choosing to ignore their posts entirely. My replies to both rational and irrational arguments are available in the following thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631760/thoughts-of-a-random-guy-on-necrom-changes-to-ha-heavy-attack-builds-on-arcanist/p1 so it is highly likely that I have already replied there to whatever the aforementioned individual (or others like them) might have written (they usually repeat themselves a lot and just ignore facts and numbers). For your convenience, the first post in that thread contains updates with links summarising the whole discussion and updates.

[Snip] Iron Atronach isn't real content in game, ok? You can't compare dps here with real situation in trial. You literally will never produce 137k dps on single target in trial, most likely 100k, but you will easily produce around 90k with brokensoul ring HA build with literally NO EFFORT at all and apm lesser kinda 10 times.
Just press LMB and brrrrr dps gonna skyrocket. And this is more then enough for almost all content in the game. [Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

nemesrichard

Eliran wrote: »

Bro you cant compare DPS and you should not.

Brokensouls Ring are Tank + Healer + Super DD + Easy to play = All In One God Class.

Sorry but you cant have it all, want them all in one? sure, but make them under perform in every single category by at least 30%.

[Snip]
Pve:
Brokensoul ring is Good defense + Good DD + Easy to play.

Meta builds are Good defense/Healing + Super DD + not easy to play

Pvp:
HA in pvp without empower. Lol.

After nerf: extinct

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

loveeso

For those interested, you can see the latest update (where I demonstrate an easy-to-play two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build, has no problems with sustain, and can give you up to 20% more DPS than the best HA build) here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631760/thoughts-of-a-random-guy-on-necrom-changes-to-ha-heavy-attack-builds-on-arcanist/p1

loveeso

And here's another important update for those who are interested, presenting real-world data for end-game content. Please refer to the link in my previous post and navigate to the section titled "Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance - Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win," located at the very bottom.

TKo_ROUSE

nemesrichard wrote: »

Eliran wrote: »

Bro you cant compare DPS and you should not.

Brokensouls Ring are Tank + Healer + Super DD + Easy to play = All In One God Class.

Sorry but you cant have it all, want them all in one? sure, but make them under perform in every single category by at least 30%.

[Snip]
Pve:
Brokensoul ring is Good defense + Good DD + Easy to play.

Meta builds are Good defense/Healing + Super DD + not easy to play

Pvp:
HA in pvp without empower. Lol.

After nerf: extinct

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

Meta builds (setups for vet HM) do not have good defense, at least not compared to Oakensoul. They also typically have 0 healing and rely on their 2 healers. Obviously some exceptions like vCR portal dd's will slot a self heal. But a Meta DD relies on execution of mechanics to survive. Oakensoul DD's can eat a lot of things that would one shot a normal DD unblocked. There is a reason people are bringing Oakensould dps for dungeon trifectas and some trial trifectas (mainly IR). You can just get away with a lot of mistakes that in the past would have been a throw/reset.

loveeso

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

Eliran wrote: »

Bro you cant compare DPS and you should not.

Brokensouls Ring are Tank + Healer + Super DD + Easy to play = All In One God Class.

Sorry but you cant have it all, want them all in one? sure, but make them under perform in every single category by at least 30%.

[Snip]
Pve:
Brokensoul ring is Good defense + Good DD + Easy to play.

Meta builds are Good defense/Healing + Super DD + not easy to play

Pvp:
HA in pvp without empower. Lol.

After nerf: extinct

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

Meta builds (setups for vet HM) do not have good defense, at least not compared to Oakensoul. They also typically have 0 healing and rely on their 2 healers. Obviously some exceptions like vCR portal dd's will slot a self heal. But a Meta DD relies on execution of mechanics to survive. Oakensoul DD's can eat a lot of things that would one shot a normal DD unblocked. There is a reason people are bringing Oakensould dps for dungeon trifectas and some trial trifectas (mainly IR). You can just get away with a lot of mistakes that in the past would have been a throw/reset.

Sorry, but this discussion is not about Oakensoul. It's about why the HA play style should not be nerfed. No announcement about changing Oakensoul has been made as far as I know. Changes tested on the PTS only affect all HA builds irrespective of whether they use Oakensoul or not.

That said, the main discussion thread that I linked to above demonstrated that practically any two-bar light-attack meta build can be just slightly modified to become as tanky as any Oakensoul build, never have any problems with sustain, and yet still easily do more damage than Oakensoul or HA builds (I even provided an example that uses just one more skill than HA builds and yet can achieve up to 120k DPS) so please check out the other thread if you are interested in the above 🙂

Galeriano

loveeso wrote: »

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

Eliran wrote: »

Bro you cant compare DPS and you should not.

Brokensouls Ring are Tank + Healer + Super DD + Easy to play = All In One God Class.

Sorry but you cant have it all, want them all in one? sure, but make them under perform in every single category by at least 30%.

[Snip]
Pve:
Brokensoul ring is Good defense + Good DD + Easy to play.

Meta builds are Good defense/Healing + Super DD + not easy to play

Pvp:
HA in pvp without empower. Lol.

After nerf: extinct

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

Meta builds (setups for vet HM) do not have good defense, at least not compared to Oakensoul. They also typically have 0 healing and rely on their 2 healers. Obviously some exceptions like vCR portal dd's will slot a self heal. But a Meta DD relies on execution of mechanics to survive. Oakensoul DD's can eat a lot of things that would one shot a normal DD unblocked. There is a reason people are bringing Oakensould dps for dungeon trifectas and some trial trifectas (mainly IR). You can just get away with a lot of mistakes that in the past would have been a throw/reset.

Sorry, but this discussion is not about Oakensoul. It's about why the HA play style should not be nerfed. No announcement about changing Oakensoul has been made as far as I know. Changes tested on the PTS only affect all HA builds irrespective of whether they use Oakensoul or not.

That said, the main discussion thread that I linked to above demonstrated that practically any two-bar light-attack meta build can be just slightly modified to become as tanky as any Oakensoul build, never have any problems with sustain, and yet still easily do more damage than Oakensoul or HA builds (I even provided an example that uses just one more skill than HA builds and yet can achieve up to 120k DPS) so please check out the other thread if you are interested in the above 🙂

Yeah, let's pretend that currently overwhelming majority of HA users in group content is not running as one bar HA oakensoul setups. Discussion about HA setups right now is discussion about oakensoul by default.

That claim is pure false. There was no real presentation of a light attack setup that could cover all the areas that oakensoul setup is covering. There is no light attack setup that can be ranged, easily sustainable, highly defensive, have decently high single target and AoE and have extremly easy rotation all at once. Every attempt to present that setup was purely theoretical and when real setup was presented it was heavily loosing to HA setup in many areas.

katorga

Eliran wrote: »

Bro you cant compare DPS and you should not.

Brokensouls Ring are Tank + Healer + Super DD + Easy to play = All In One God Class.

Sorry but you cant have it all, want them all in one? sure, but make them under perform in every single category by at least 30%.

An Oaken build underperforms by almost exactlyy 30%.

That seems to be the delta between a HA build and a real dps build.

Dunno about tanking, or how you would measure it.

And yes you can have it all. ZOS conveniently gives every class, except maybe sorc, the skills and passives to perform every role at the same time. Thats why there are so many tanky damage builds in pvp.

TKo_ROUSE

loveeso wrote: »

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

nemesrichard wrote: »

Eliran wrote: »

Bro you cant compare DPS and you should not.

Brokensouls Ring are Tank + Healer + Super DD + Easy to play = All In One God Class.

Sorry but you cant have it all, want them all in one? sure, but make them under perform in every single category by at least 30%.

[Snip]
Pve:
Brokensoul ring is Good defense + Good DD + Easy to play.

Meta builds are Good defense/Healing + Super DD + not easy to play

Pvp:
HA in pvp without empower. Lol.

After nerf: extinct

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

Meta builds (setups for vet HM) do not have good defense, at least not compared to Oakensoul. They also typically have 0 healing and rely on their 2 healers. Obviously some exceptions like vCR portal dd's will slot a self heal. But a Meta DD relies on execution of mechanics to survive. Oakensoul DD's can eat a lot of things that would one shot a normal DD unblocked. There is a reason people are bringing Oakensould dps for dungeon trifectas and some trial trifectas (mainly IR). You can just get away with a lot of mistakes that in the past would have been a throw/reset.

Sorry, but this discussion is not about Oakensoul. It's about why the HA play style should not be nerfed. No announcement about changing Oakensoul has been made as far as I know. Changes tested on the PTS only affect all HA builds irrespective of whether they use Oakensoul or not.

That said, the main discussion thread that I linked to above demonstrated that practically any two-bar light-attack meta build can be just slightly modified to become as tanky as any Oakensoul build, never have any problems with sustain, and yet still easily do more damage than Oakensoul or HA builds (I even provided an example that uses just one more skill than HA builds and yet can achieve up to 120k DPS) so please check out the other thread if you are interested in the above 🙂

I am literally replying to someone talking about oakensoul.............................................................

You have brought up oakensoul several times in your own thread here so I don't understand the relevance of your comment? Is it we can only say good things about oakensoul? You don't want data that doesn't support your narrative? I am not the one who brought this into your discussion, you and others already have......

I glanced through your examples. You know if your builds are so great and the 4% dps nerf to oakensoul is so huge why not just go swap to one of those "better" builds? I am guessing you won't because you and I both know they aren't very good comparisons to oakensoul. I won't add much more because Galeriano already broke this part down for you.

loveeso

Not sure what it was in my reply to you that triggered you. I believe it was polite and clearly meant to be helpful.

If you read my thread then you would know that I usually use meta and don’t use those simple builds, I just quickly came up with them to demonstrate how easy it is.

If you still don’t understand why nerfing heavy-attack builds and nerfing Oakensoul are two separate things then just read about it again. I hope us to stay on topic here and in the other thread. If you want the Oakensoul mythic to be nerfed, please either find a thread that deals with that or create you own. Thank you for your understanding

TKo_ROUSE

loveeso wrote: »

Not sure what it was in my reply to you that triggered you. I believe it was polite and clearly meant to be helpful.

If you read my thread then you would know that I usually use meta and don’t use those simple builds, I just quickly came up with them to demonstrate how easy it is.

If you still don’t understand why nerfing heavy-attack builds and nerfing Oakensoul are two separate things then just read about it again. I hope us to stay on topic here and in the other thread. If you want the Oakensoul mythic to be nerfed, please either find a thread that deals with that or create you own. Thank you for your understanding

There are 3 pages of people talking about oakensoul and I am not the one who brought this in the conversation. I just merely replied to someone making a comparison to offer light on the situation. So if you don't want that in this conversation please bring it up with them. So again the point of this comment? Why are you replying to me and not the people who originally brought it up?

loveeso

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Not sure what it was in my reply to you that triggered you. I believe it was polite and clearly meant to be helpful.

If you read my thread then you would know that I usually use meta and don’t use those simple builds, I just quickly came up with them to demonstrate how easy it is.

If you still don’t understand why nerfing heavy-attack builds and nerfing Oakensoul are two separate things then just read about it again. I hope us to stay on topic here and in the other thread. If you want the Oakensoul mythic to be nerfed, please either find a thread that deals with that or create you own. Thank you for your understanding

There are 3 pages of people talking about oakensoul and I am not the one who brought this in the conversation. I just merely replied to someone making a comparison to offer light on the situation. So if you don't want that in this conversation please bring it up with them. So again the point of this comment? Why are you replying to me and not the people who originally brought it up?

I guess it’s because your post seemed reasonable and worth replying to clarify. Sorry if it got you upset

Lena_HJ

Galeriano wrote: »

Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

Speaking from my experience as a healer they do more damage because they ... last longer. Dead DPS provides zero DPS.
I did check several logs from Lokke HM and I only see not-Oakensoul people dying to Static. [wonky tombs spare noone ]

Oakensoul gives you among other things:

*Major resolve - increases Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 5948.
(in comparison, my RoJo Spaulder healer with all her gear golden has - unbuffed and out of combat - 15K spell and 11K damage resistance)
*Minor protection - reduces damage taken by 5%
*Minor Aegis - decreases Damage Taken in Dungeons & Trials by 5%
*Minor mending - increases Healing Done by 8%
*Minor fortitude - increases Health Recovery by 15%

and on top of that crits to healing thanks to other buffs provided by Oakensoul.

Moreover, Oakenfolk usually wear some mix of medium and heavy armor, so there is also that.

*Minor tanky-ness XD

Real action has nothing to do with parsing on dummy, unless the dummy fights back. Even with the nerf to empower Oaken builds will do well.

jaws343

Lena_HJ wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Why in so many logs from actual content especially in less optimised groups one bar HA setups are beating LA setups?

Speaking from my experience as a healer they do more damage because they ... last longer. Dead DPS provides zero DPS.
I did check several logs from Lokke HM and I only see not-Oakensoul people dying to Static. [wonky tombs spare noone ]

Oakensoul gives you among other things:

*Major resolve - increases Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 5948.
(in comparison, my RoJo Spaulder healer with all her gear golden has - unbuffed and out of combat - 15K spell and 11K damage resistance)
*Minor protection - reduces damage taken by 5%
*Minor Aegis - decreases Damage Taken in Dungeons & Trials by 5%
*Minor mending - increases Healing Done by 8%
*Minor fortitude - increases Health Recovery by 15%

and on top of that crits to healing thanks to other buffs provided by Oakensoul.

Moreover, Oakenfolk usually wear some mix of medium and heavy armor, so there is also that.

*Minor tanky-ness XD

Real action has nothing to do with parsing on dummy, unless the dummy fights back. Even with the nerf to empower Oaken builds will do well.

I think that is part of it. The larger part is, in real content, the engagement of the two build types is drastically different.

2 bar builds get most of their damage from Dots, many of which are ground based. So, when a boss moves, or the DPS has to reposition for a mechanic, it takes them 3-4, even 5 GCDs to relayer all of their damage.

A 1 bar build gets like 70% of its DPS from heavy attack damage. So, for a 1 bar player, repositioning or a moving boss still means that they are back at the boss with 70% of their damage being done with 2.2 seconds. And if a pet sorc, they are likely at an even higher damage threshold since the pets stay locked on.

So, oaken heavy attack builds can re-engage with a target far more reliably and get up to 100% damage on the target far quicker than a 2 bar build can. And, even when not at 100%, oaken builds are still doing a huge minimum amount of damage far quicker than a 2 bar build can possibly match.

Lena_HJ

jaws343 wrote: »

I think that is part of it. The larger part is, in real content, the engagement of the two build types is drastically different.

2 bar builds get most of their damage from Dots, many of which are ground based. So, when a boss moves, or the DPS has to reposition for a mechanic, it takes them 3-4, even 5 GCDs to relayer all of their damage.

A 1 bar build gets like 70% of its DPS from heavy attack damage. So, for a 1 bar player, repositioning or a moving boss still means that they are back at the boss with 70% of their damage being done with 2.2 seconds. And if a pet sorc, they are likely at an even higher damage threshold since the pets stay locked on.

So, oaken heavy attack builds can re-engage with a target far more reliably and get up to 100% damage on the target far quicker than a 2 bar build can. And, even when not at 100%, oaken builds are still doing a huge minimum amount of damage far quicker than a 2 bar build can possibly match.

I was writing from healer's perspective, but I pulled out some random logs (different trials, different difficulty, different team optimization and Crag-list runs) and although 70% damage from HA may be a slight exaggeration, it is the main source of damage when it comes to HA builds and it rarely drops below 50%. But when you add tri-focus yep... around 70.

Well.. damn! And with no need to stampede away from your healer! The training dummy not only doesn't attack you, it doesn't run away from you either XD

Thanks for making me aware of that.

loveeso

To maintain focus and avoid disruption in our discussion, could we kindly redirect our attention to heavy attack builds once again—the builds that are currently being nerfed?

I'm confident that there are other threads in this forum dedicated to discussing the Oakensoul ring and whether it warrants a nerf.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

Kusto

loveeso wrote: »

To maintain focus and avoid disruption in our discussion, could we kindly redirect our attention to heavy attack builds once again—the builds that are currently being nerfed?

I'm confident that there are other threads in this forum dedicated to discussing the Oakensoul ring and whether it warrants a nerf.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

Except that 99% of HA builds ARE using Oakensoul. And that combo is over performing in content. Oakensoul itself is fine if used in some other builds and other HA builds without oaken are also fine. It's the combo that needs nerfing somehow.

Billium813

Oakensoul isn't the issue

No one would care that Oakensoul makes users a bit tankier then they should be, if the DPS wasn't so high. Is anyone even using Oakensoul OUTSIDE of HA builds? Are THOSE builds an issue? No? Then, it isn't Oakensoul.

The issue is 1000% Lightning Staff Channel Damage and how it works with "Heavy Attack" sets like Sergeant's Mail. That's it. There are no NON-HA Oakensoul builds that are an issue and there are no NON-Lightning Staff HA builds that are an issue. It isn't Oakensoul, and it isn't Empower.

If you still think the issue is Oakensoul, show me an abusive non-HA Oakensoul build that shows Oakensoul is too strong. If you still think the issue is Empower, show me an abusive non-Lightning Staff HA build that shows Empower needs a nerf.

Lena_HJ

Billium813 wrote: »

No one would care that Oakensoul makes users a bit tankier then they should be, if the DPS wasn't so high. Is anyone even using Oakensoul OUTSIDE of HA builds? Are THOSE builds an issue? No? Then, it isn't Oakensoul.

Oakensoul is popular in PvP because on top of the tankiness I mentioned before it provides you with other buffs to your resource regeneration and damage buffs.

Billium813 wrote: »

The issue is 1000% Lightning Staff Channel Damage and how it works with "Heavy Attack" sets like Sergeant's Mail. That's it. There are no NON-HA Oakensoul builds that are an issue and there are no NON-Lightning Staff HA builds that are an issue. It isn't Oakensoul, and it isn't Empower.

Agreed, it is insane XD Also, from my experience with different kinds of staves, fully charged HA with Lightning are much easier to pull off in comparison with Ice and Fire sticks. I proc Roaring Opportunist with Resto during trash fights and not with Ice staff because it is much "smoother". Just click on a mouse button, pick a mob at random and don't worry if the target moves.

Billium813 wrote: »

If you still think the issue is Oakensoul, show me an abusive non-HA Oakensoul build that shows Oakensoul is too strong. If you still think the issue is Empower, show me an abusive non-Lightning Staff HA build that shows Empower needs a nerf.

Thankfully since Empower is no longer a thing in Cyro, I haven't seen much of those. On the other hand, since Empower no longer applies to light attacks, my Necro healer rarely sees any action outside of PvP, ehh

Galeriano

Billium813 wrote: »

Oakensoul isn't the issue

No one would care that Oakensoul makes users a bit tankier then they should be, if the DPS wasn't so high. Is anyone even using Oakensoul OUTSIDE of HA builds? Are THOSE builds an issue? No? Then, it isn't Oakensoul.

The issue is 1000% Lightning Staff Channel Damage and how it works with "Heavy Attack" sets like Sergeant's Mail. That's it. There are no NON-HA Oakensoul builds that are an issue and there are no NON-Lightning Staff HA builds that are an issue. It isn't Oakensoul, and it isn't Empower.

If you still think the issue is Oakensoul, show me an abusive non-HA Oakensoul build that shows Oakensoul is too strong. If you still think the issue is Empower, show me an abusive non-Lightning Staff HA build that shows Empower needs a nerf.

What if I told You it's not one thing but combination of few that is an issue? Oakensoul is an issue when combined with lightning staff HA setups. It adds a big layer of simplicity and tankiness to a setup that normally wouldn't have it.

Before oakensoul arrival there were no complaints about one bar HA setups and HA setups were not so extremly popular as they are right now. Lightning staves were working as they're working right now back than so if that alone would be an issue we would've seen it already getting popularity before oakensoul.

Thing is oakensoul HA setups combine few advantegous features where some of them are related to lighting staves and some to oakensoul.

"Abusive" non HA oakesnoul setups were dealt with when ZoS nerfed oakensoul last time. That nerf was specifically targeting those types of setups. Changing major buffs to minor ones and adding buffed empower to oakensoul was a move specifically designed to lower the strenght of non HA oakensoul setups while keeping the strenght of oakensoul HA setups untouched or even increasaing it a bit.

loveeso

Kusto wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

To maintain focus and avoid disruption in our discussion, could we kindly redirect our attention to heavy attack builds once again—the builds that are currently being nerfed?

I'm confident that there are other threads in this forum dedicated to discussing the Oakensoul ring and whether it warrants a nerf.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

Except that 99% of HA builds ARE using Oakensoul. And that combo is over performing in content. Oakensoul itself is fine if used in some other builds and other HA builds without oaken are also fine. It's the combo that needs nerfing somehow.

So, to summarise what you wrote here (and what 3 (presumably anti-HA ) people found insightful and 5 others agreed with):

A. You say there is no need to nerf the following one-bar light-attack build, which 1. uses Oakensoul, 2. does as much damage as the strongest Oakensoul Lightning HA Sorc builds, and 3. is as tanky as them (because, as I have said before, tankiness comes from Oakensoul, not from using heavy attacks):



B. But you do want to nerf the following HA build, which 1. doesn't use Oakensoul, 2. uses two bars, in terms of 3. tankiness is the same as a two-bar light-attack meta DD, and 4. pre-nerf also does as much damage as the strongest Oakensoul Lightning HA Sorc build (i.e. much less than the LA meta):



These are just example builds, there are so many others, and you want to nerf all those that use heavy attacks without Oakensoul, and none of those that use Oakensoul if they don't use heavy attacks.

How is A not "overperforming" and B "overperforming" ?

I will not even mention another HA build demonstrated in the other thread that is only capable of achieving around 35k DPS on the trial dummy, which - as follows from what you wrote - you also want to nerf

Ok. I feel you.

twistedodean14

I believe in build diversity and play diversity. LA weaving and animation cancelling from what I remember was an unintended aspect of the game way back when. And was adopted as a feature in the game. That was not the case for HA, which was always intended. People pay a ton of money for the content, and therefore should have access to all of it. That's my view. So if HA oaken Builds is a way to that content, then so be it. My only issue that there are not a lot build diversity for the HA DPS playstyle. Honestly the average HA user is not pulling above 60k dps. And it's just enough to do some Vet dlc dungeons and normal trials. Let people have this.

Now the only thing is missing are people who want to play with both bars but don't want to light attack weave or they are really bad at it... Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet presented an interest opportunity for another playstyle but that opportunity is now non existent due the recent changes. To be honest, I'm not sure as to what the purpose of that mythic is now. Or even why it's in the game. The game has enough useless sets in it. I don't see why more needs to be added.

I'm not sure why end game players want to gate keep vet content through LA playstyle, isn't it better to have more players to be able to complete that content?

Kusto

loveeso wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

To maintain focus and avoid disruption in our discussion, could we kindly redirect our attention to heavy attack builds once again—the builds that are currently being nerfed?

I'm confident that there are other threads in this forum dedicated to discussing the Oakensoul ring and whether it warrants a nerf.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

Except that 99% of HA builds ARE using Oakensoul. And that combo is over performing in content. Oakensoul itself is fine if used in some other builds and other HA builds without oaken are also fine. It's the combo that needs nerfing somehow.

So, to summarise what you wrote here (and what 3 (presumably anti-HA ) people found insightful and 5 others agreed with):

A. You say there is no need to nerf the following one-bar light-attack build, which 1. uses Oakensoul, 2. does as much damage as the strongest Oakensoul Lightning HA Sorc builds, and 3. is as tanky as them (because, as I have said before, tankiness comes from Oakensoul, not from using heavy attacks):



B. But you do want to nerf the following HA build, which 1. doesn't use Oakensoul, 2. uses two bars, in terms of 3. tankiness is the same as a two-bar light-attack meta DD, and 4. pre-nerf also does as much damage as the strongest Oakensoul Lightning HA Sorc build (i.e. much less than the LA meta):



These are just example builds, there are so many others, and you want to nerf all those that use heavy attacks without Oakensoul, and none of those that use Oakensoul if they don't use heavy attacks.

How is A not "overperforming" and B "overperforming" ?

I will not even mention another HA build demonstrated in the other thread that is only capable of achieving around 35k DPS on the trial dummy, which - as follows from what you wrote - you also want to nerf

Ok. I feel you.

An average player cant pull the same numbers with your Oaken Rele + Nirn build as they can with Oaken Sergeants + Storm master HA. Your build is melee for 1 and 2nd needs la weaving which many cant do, thats why theyre using HA in first place lol. Also your LA build doesnt have nearly as much aoe as HA build. So no, that doesnt need nerfing. The COMBO that everyone and their mom is using, Oaken, Sergeants, Storm is just broken af and needs heavy nerf. I just pugged vSS and 3 oaken HA just dominated top dps every pull. It happens in every trial unless theres some 120-130k parser in there. Stop playing with your elitist friends and go try pug something or run a trial with some casual average guild and you see it yourself.

Lena_HJ

@loveeso

example A - good luck DPSing vAS and I bet when Sail Ripper sees this setup, it will immediately land on the ground in awe and just let you spank it, while staff users will sit in the corner and weep. Shock dragons in Elsweyr? Grey Host vampire lords? Trivial. Content and dummy - again, different things.

example B - I see no build, just stats page. His bars may be all shields and CC tools. Nice crit chance though!

Please, don't take what I am writing here personally, I am being sarcastic because I am a bit well... frustrated with how vague developers were in patch notes when they explain the cause of the their decision to nerf Empower:

While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build.

So you and I, all of us may only guess what those "rare cases" are and what "overperforming" means.