PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements

silvereyes · February 2022

Kesstryl wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

The Q&A has been posted. On the main sub-forum. The thread is locked.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598865/

No mention about how NPCs react to your alts or other quests that are tied to achievements in the Q&A? That should have been addressed! @ZOS_GinaBruno

That is surprising they weren't mentioned, at least for ones without quests, like Adoring Admirer. Are they even aware of those bugs? I assume the easiest "fix" would be to give them the same treatment as museum achievements, since there's only a few.

For the others that have associated quests, I imagine there will be bug fixes in the coming weeks / months tying their dialog to quest stages instead of achievements. There's less rush on those, since quest stages aren't getting changed this update.

code65536 · February 2022

The problem with the "performance argument" is that it will have zero effect on the kind of performance that people care most about: combat performance. It will do nothing for lag, responsiveness, etc.

What it will affect is load screens, but I'm very skeptical of the value of this. A lot of things affect load screen times. The player's computer, the number of graphical assets that need to be loaded in, and, yes, the amount of character data that needs to be loaded.

I suspect, though, that in the greater scheme of things, the latter is relatively small, and that any performance gain would be, at best, on the order of shaving a few seconds off.

Great, you've got your performance gain. Now can we talk about the cost? Specifically, the loss of years worth of accumulated character history. Achievements are, in many ways, a story of that specific character. Just the other day, I was playing a character that I hadn't played in a long time. And I was able to look at the achievements to see what she had done all those years ago.

This is important information that is being taken away from the player. It's a souvenir and product of the time that players have put into this world, and it's being taken away.

Now, some might say, "other games have account-wide achievements", and yes, they do, but they launched with them. The fact of the matter is that character-specific achievements have been with us for years and we've grown used to having it be a record of our activities, so their removal is taking something away from the player, whereas there's nothing to take away for a game that has never had it.

To be clear, I want account-wide achievements. I just don't want them at the cost of deleting our characters' histories. And if the cost of avoiding that is a few extra seconds of load screen, then so be it. The so-called gains in performance are not worth the loss of years of character history.

BladedMischief · February 2022

This is honestly such a slap in the face. A role playing game shouldn’t have account wide achievements. Characters are individuals. You’re taking that away with this. Makes new characters pointless. Makes role playing pointless. This isn’t a role playing game anymore with this update. I don’t want the same achievements on all my characters. Why? THEY’RE INDIVIDUALS. They’re not the same! Their achievements are their own!
This update has lost me.
I loved ESO. I really did. Spent hundreds maybe nearing a thousand over the years. Thanks for slapping us in the face with this and making stuff pointless. Role playing in ESO kept me grounded, kept me safe and distracted.
No incentive remains to even try and do quests or earn anything anymore. You’re taking so much away from the game. So much away from roleplayers.

silvereyes · February 2022

As always, @code65536 said it perfectly. I agree with code.

Araneae6537 · February 2022

JKorr wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Loading screen speed is an important factor in PvP. Loading into a keep before it's flagged, camps, & moving around map in general. I've lost count how many times a cluster of players have been blow-up at a keep shrine or camp before they had control of their character.

So this was their fix for PvP performance? I agree that is an issue that needs resolved but not at the cost of everyone else.

If this is their fix for PVP performance, it is yet another reason for pve players to really have hard feelings about pvp. The pvp players who use toons to play because they really don't need characters to kill other players [trash-talk, insults, and tea-bagging optional], who may not see any purpose in creating "characters" are a higher priority than the pve players who play their characters, not their accounts. Nice to know. Rather regretting pre-ordering the next piece now, and the extra crowns.

You can request a refund on the chapter preorder; I just received mine. I have to say that ZOS Support has always been prompt, helpful and courteous in all my interactions and I can only wish the decision-makers did even half so well.

Ugh_Tech · February 2022

As far as I understand the Q&A, character-specific achievement data will no longer be kept (just as an emergency backup in case they need to roll back) and thus not be updated after Update 33 has been released. So, I think there's no hope for any Addon that might help to keep that data after that point.

SilverBride wrote: »

I hope you realize that you just killed replayability and the only way many of your playerbase plays the game? Sure maybe (and it is a maybe) it will help performance (which is almost exclusively in Cyrodiil) but at what cost?

I think it will help to improve performance - but I fear not in the way ZOS thinks it does. Viewing this as a pessimist I predict, that Update 33 is the beginning of the end of ESO. Shortly after its 10th anniversary it will be shut down, since lots of veterans will turn their backs and others will just spin around the dolmens in Alik'r to get LVL50 as fast as possible and then go to PvP - no need to buy chapters, crowns or subscriptions.

SilverBride wrote: »

You just killed your game.

I'd like to say that's wrong - but currently I feel these five words are the ones I have to agree the most in this whole thread!

JKorr · February 2022

Q: Are there plans to track individual character progression or identifying which character completed an achievement first?

A: Completed achievements will display the name of the character that first completed the achievement, as well as the date it was first completed. The initial account achievement merging process takes this into account and will auto-update the achievement to display the earliest completion date and character. Tracking individual character progression nullifies the database improvements that Account Wide Achievements bring and isn’t something we can implement without losing those benefits.

Well. Doesn't matter who did what when apparently. That new alt I was considering will have all the same titles and achievements as my main made on the day of early release character. Not much point in playing if I have most if not all the achievements the instant I make a new character. Definitely not much point in making new characters, just find one of my current characters that is close to getting the achievement, if I actually work up the enthusiasm to play at all.

Jazraena · February 2022

BladedMischief wrote: »

This is honestly such a slap in the face. A role playing game shouldn’t have account wide achievements. Characters are individuals. You’re taking that away with this. Makes new characters pointless. Makes role playing pointless. This isn’t a role playing game anymore with this update. I don’t want the same achievements on all my characters. Why? THEY’RE INDIVIDUALS. They’re not the same! Their achievements are their own!
This update has lost me.
I loved ESO. I really did. Spent hundreds maybe nearing a thousand over the years. Thanks for slapping us in the face with this and making stuff pointless. Role playing in ESO kept me grounded, kept me safe and distracted.
No incentive remains to even try and do quests or earn anything anymore. You’re taking so much away from the game. So much away from roleplayers.

Personally, I will happily continue roleplaying since some random game interface piece doesn't interfere with it whatsoever.

Every RP community I am in contact with is largely positive as well, so, sorry to hear you don't like it - but don't presume you speak for roleplayers as a whole. Most of us are quite content.

Elsonso · February 2022

@ZOS_Kevin ... I was directed here by the Q&A... Is there an "expiration date" for logging into ESO to migrate character achievements to the account?

Zezin · February 2022

ESO: removes a minor system to improve performance and to modernize the game.

Role players: the end is nigh! Quick delete your characters and go play some other game with the exact same feature that is being implemented!

Joke aside, while I do feel sorry that a system you like is being altered in a way you don't agree I do think this is being blown out of proportion. For those saying this is because of PvPers, it's not, the bad performance in pvp is starting to bleed out into other aspects of the game, and that is with pvp being at an all time low for the game something that makes me think it's not pvp causing it. The way I see it either they started taking more drastic measures or the game would die out for real,not because some people were upset but because the game itself would be unplayable.

@code65536 @silvereyes I do honestly hope this isn't enough to drive you out of the game,while I do disagree on a lot of things with you two it would be a terrible loss for the community to see you go, if that is your decision however, I respect it and wish you all the best, your add-ons helped me a lot in my time in ESO, for that I thank you.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2022

Wolfkeks wrote: »

While I love getting account wide achievements I'm seeing lots of peeps who are unhappy about it.

Would it be possible to make a tab for character and one tab for account achievements so peeps can track which character did a certain achievement? Or make a note on that achievement if it was done on that char or on the account?

Otherwise I like this change!

To me this is the best idea and suggested solution. I didn’t read all the comment but while I think “optional” can be understood very different. I would want to be able to see if this person did or didn’t do something. The logic of a account tab and character tab makes the most obvious sense and closely aligns with how the UI is already setup.

Maybe I don’t play enough anymore, but it seems like either there are other plans where this needs to happen (but you haven’t given us context) or perhaps its just short sighted.

Oliviander · February 2022

Last entry in the Q&A:

Q: What will happen to the character-specific achievement data once this goes through? Will there be a way to revert the process if something goes wrong?

A: We will have backups of all the data in case of an emergency, but as noted earlier, much of this effort is a performance initiative and great for the long-term health of the game. As such, we do not intend to revert this unless we run into some sort of catastrophic bug.

This change is a catastrophic bug all for itself !

silvereyes · February 2022

this surprisingly isn’t the largest footprint of player generated data.

What's next on the chopping block, I wonder?

If I had to guess from prior dev comments, probably guild history. An MMO doesn't need informative guild management tools, right?

This probably kills any hope of getting more housing slots in the future, too.

pamichic · February 2022

Ok so, I think I have a solution to those of us that absolutely do not want this:

ZOS needs to make each character their own account. And tie ESO+ and craft bag, etc to our user name (you know, kind of like it is now).

I would be happy to break all of my characters into accounts if that's what it takes to keep their individuality.

I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE MY CHARACTER PROGRESS. IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

I am fine if you want account wide achievements. Hell, I have even warmed up to the account wide titles -

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THATS HOLY JUST STOP AND READ THE FORUMS @ZOS_GinaBruno

Saying this is for performance is a crock of something I won't say because the forum police will snip it anyway.

Find another way - any other way - do NOT make us lose all our history!

If this truly goes live, as many others have said (and already done) thats the final nail in the coffin for me.

Making me *choose* who gets the actual achievement unlocked??? NO. This should NOT be this way - at all. My healer has my first vMOL clear but my tanks vMOL clear is JUST AS IMPORTANT and will now be LOST. I raid on 2 teams - I heal and I tank. You literally just killed my tank (healer is my first team). I won't want to go back and tank things my healer already cleared for literally no gain on that character! How will raid teams even verify what role people got things on?

You are sucking the fun out of this game from multiple angles and levels.

PLEASE DELAY THIS ROLL OUT AND FIND A BETTER WAY!

People have suggested mimicking whatever WOW has done - can we do that? How did they do that? Can we ask them?

My heart is broken over this - and I can clearly see from 60+ pages I'm not the only one.

Zezin · February 2022

silvereyes wrote: »

this surprisingly isn’t the largest footprint of player generated data.

What's next on the chopping block, I wonder?

If I had to guess from prior dev comments, probably guild history. An MMO doesn't need informative guild management tools, right?

This probably kills any hope of getting more housing slots in the future, too.

Do you know how far back they store that data?

tomofhyrule · February 2022

I’ll get over it. I guess we should just try to have fun with it now.

We may lose Melina Cassel, but now ZOS is introducing new lore involving how Khamira likes to sit on Euraxia’s lap. I can’t wait to hear the new scandalous stories surrounding this!

…hopefully ZOS still has time to fix some of the other issues…

Raevenglass · February 2022

I'm incredibly sad after reading that Q&A.

If I turn off addons, my loading screens are a few seconds at most. I don't see this being a huge issue on something being "performant".

I can't believe there isn't a clever way for the game to record when a character completes something and slap a name/date on there without making it a huge data sink.

Unlike most issues - this one seems to have an easy fix to make everyone happy. Make the AwA changes, just allow us some way to keep track of what our individual characters have done. Everyone is happy.

So why won't ZOS do that?

wenchmore420b14_ESO · February 2022

Oh, somewhere in this favoured land the sun is shining bright,
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light;
And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout,
But there is no joy in Mudville Tamriel—mighty Casey ZoS has struck out.

Just read the so-called "Q&A".
Really? REALLY? That's all we get is "Oh we forgot to mention originally this is for performance?
I call ***'s.

There have been a TON of decisions that changed the game I have seen since 2013, some I liked, some I really disliked, but I always just took the "wait and see" attitude.
But this may be the "One" that breaks my 20 year love of TES.
I have already moved around my alts log in screen. I have 1 alt that is my "merchant" that just does trader listings and that's all. I will park and never touch my alts once UD33 goes live as I want to at least TRY and save their individuality by not logging in on them. My main and merchant alt will be all I will log on with March 14.

But my 1 year sub, which I have had since March 2014, is due on March 25. So in that 10 days I will decide, after almost 9 years of playing ESO, to cancel my sub. I am SO sad!! What do I do with my guild? What about our guild hall since it is not available to pass on? How much of our guild will even be around after this?

My roommate is a big WoW player. I told him the situation here, and he showed me on his account how Blizzard fixed their Achievement fiasco. It was cool and made both side of the coin happy. Why can't YOU ZoS, try and do a fix like that?

@ZOS_GinaBruno , we thank you for posting the Q&A, and thank you for all you have done over the last 9-10 years, but have the powers that be REALLY thought this through and realize the fallout from this? Are we, the long term loyal members, worth losing over a thinly veiled "performance fix"? Did really that many people request AwA over all the other requests we see weekly or monthly for other things?
I agree this is a "Don't like it don't play" kind of response from ZoS.

Just my 2 drakes, but no huzzahs today....

CrystalExarch · February 2022

KMarble wrote: »

The Q&A has been posted. On the main sub-forum. The thread is locked.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598865/

Thanks! I've just read it. Well, ZOS didn't disappointed me in the least; just yesterday I was saying...

CrystalExarch wrote: »

I'm afraid, no answers until it will be already too late for a reaction. This is when their Q&A will come out, I presume, to say a few words justifying the decision they took for the community against a big part of the community.

So annoyingly predictable and utterly ungrateful to a lovely community who have supported them over the years. ZOS don't deserve you guys and galls. What ESO and TES games ended up having in common is that "Elder Scrolls" in the title. Pathetic!

skyrimfantasy · February 2022

For the achievements no longer character specific - why do we even need the name of which character accomplished it? Why not just list a date that you received it on the account? There is no point in saying which character was the one to log in when you crossed the threshold when it gains nothing for that specific character.

BladedMischief · February 2022

Jazraena wrote: »

BladedMischief wrote: »

This is honestly such a slap in the face. A role playing game shouldn’t have account wide achievements. Characters are individuals. You’re taking that away with this. Makes new characters pointless. Makes role playing pointless. This isn’t a role playing game anymore with this update. I don’t want the same achievements on all my characters. Why? THEY’RE INDIVIDUALS. They’re not the same! Their achievements are their own!
This update has lost me.
I loved ESO. I really did. Spent hundreds maybe nearing a thousand over the years. Thanks for slapping us in the face with this and making stuff pointless. Role playing in ESO kept me grounded, kept me safe and distracted.
No incentive remains to even try and do quests or earn anything anymore. You’re taking so much away from the game. So much away from roleplayers.

Personally, I will happily continue roleplaying since some random game interface piece doesn't interfere with it whatsoever.

Every RP community I am in contact with is largely positive as well, so, sorry to hear you don't like it - but don't presume you speak for roleplayers as a whole. Most of us are quite content.

I never even assumed/presumed that. I'm speaking from MY experience/point of view, and that of my friends who I've spoken to regarding this update.
This is my opinion too, and again, my experience and feelings on it. I'm entitled to my opinion, and to feel the way I do.
I can feel this way. I can feel as though my characters have had their individuality stripped with this. As ESO says, "Play your way" This is MY way.

Zorrin · February 2022

I don't think I'm going to be able to stomach playing this game once Update 33 drops unless all the world state/dynamic dialogue/encounters are unassociated with achievement status and moved to quest completion flags or something instead. Although I'm very sad I will no longer be able to look back at dates like my character's "birthdays" (aka when they escaped Coldharbour for my oldest ones), I'm most upset about NPCs and the world state completely breaking immersion on characters who HAVEN'T saved the queen/Tamriel/Elsweyr/etc. just because someone else HAS at some point. This immersion breaking mess is one of the least Elder Scrolls things they could have possibly done and utterly destroys the feel of the game.

ZOS themselves like to say that Update 12 "One Tamriel" turned ESO around and saved it. Well, now they'll be able to point out Update 33 "Once Tamriel" as the update that ruined it.

Wolf_Eye · February 2022

skyrimfantasy wrote: »

For the achievements no longer character specific - why do we even need the name of which character accomplished it? Why not just list a date that you received it on the account? There is no point in saying which character was the one to log in when you crossed the threshold when it gains nothing for that specific character.

Furthermore, the fact that the character named might not even be the one that contributed the most to that achievement.

Because the way it works right now is that there are achievements like "steal 1 million gold" (or something like that. I can't remember how much gold it required) where Character A steals 999,999 gold and Character B steals 1 gold, but Character B would be the one who gets their name on it since they "finished" the achievement.

So the names themselves, as currently implemented, don't even really tell the whole story.

silvereyes · February 2022

Zezin wrote: »

ESO: removes a minor system to improve performance and to modernize the game.

If it were minor, it wouldn't be a target. Lots of data is being deleted, and that's by design. Whether one actually used that data or not will color their reaction to the change immensely.

Zezin wrote: »

@code65536 @silvereyes I do honestly hope this isn't enough to drive you out of the game,while I do disagree on a lot of things with you two it would be a terrible loss for the community to see you go, if that is your decision however, I respect it and wish you all the best, your add-ons helped me a lot in my time in ESO, for that I thank you.

Daww. Thank you for the kind words.

I haven't yet decided where I'm going to land. I'm going to need some time to cool off, first.

I love this community, and even if I don't personally have too much skin in the achievements game (I rarely use the journal), it makes me mad when I see the sort of callous disregard for the community that I've seen from ZOS in the last several years. This isn't the first time.

As a software developer myself, I also have been finding it harder and harder to support ZOS as a development company at all. I see cutting features in any successful software as an absolute last resort, and if ZOS can't find some way to fix performance without ripping out parts of the game, it's going to be hard for the professional in me to respect them.

My sub runs out in April, and I doubt I'll be resubbing any time soon.

Dolgubon · February 2022

What was even the point of the Q&A? Why did it take two weeks to even say that, if the only things of substance were 'we're doing it' and fixing museum quests?

How much, as a %, on average, does the change actually reduce required database space required, and how much does that actually affect load speeds? Why was there zero acknowdgement that it's not a 100% universally accepted change, of the massive amount of feedback you got?

silvereyes wrote: »

IldaraFathryon wrote: »

Not sure which stage of grief this is going to correspond to, but is there/are there any addons we can install prior to release of the update that might preserve some of the functionality in terms of character-based achievement logging even after the real ones are merged?

Once the achievement is complete, the game no longer raises events for achievement progression that an addon needs. And if the addon didn't back up progress from before U33 goes live, it wouldn't help in any case, because all historical progression is getting melted into the same pot, with no nametags on which characters contributed what.

Speaking of which: does anyone want to maintain my addons? I doubt I'm going to feel particularly motivated to continue adding compatibility for updates I don't plan to play:
https://www.esoui.com/downloads/author-20381.html

I'm not decided on what I'll do but... Good chance I might be doing the same.

silvereyes · February 2022

Zezin wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

this surprisingly isn’t the largest footprint of player generated data.

What's next on the chopping block, I wonder?

If I had to guess from prior dev comments, probably guild history. An MMO doesn't need informative guild management tools, right?

This probably kills any hope of getting more housing slots in the future, too.

Do you know how far back they store that data?

The API and guild history tab provide data back for 10 days. I doubt they will completely remove it, but I can easily imagine them reducing it to only one or two days. They've cut it before. It used to be 30 days. I think it was only 5 on EU, when the servers started melting after the Greymoor release.

SilverBride · February 2022

I have never in all my years of playing ESO had a performance problem.

[Edited for clarity]

Jazraena · February 2022

BladedMischief wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

BladedMischief wrote: »

This is honestly such a slap in the face. A role playing game shouldn’t have account wide achievements. Characters are individuals. You’re taking that away with this. Makes new characters pointless. Makes role playing pointless. This isn’t a role playing game anymore with this update. I don’t want the same achievements on all my characters. Why? THEY’RE INDIVIDUALS. They’re not the same! Their achievements are their own!
This update has lost me.
I loved ESO. I really did. Spent hundreds maybe nearing a thousand over the years. Thanks for slapping us in the face with this and making stuff pointless. Role playing in ESO kept me grounded, kept me safe and distracted.
No incentive remains to even try and do quests or earn anything anymore. You’re taking so much away from the game. So much away from roleplayers.

Personally, I will happily continue roleplaying since some random game interface piece doesn't interfere with it whatsoever.

Every RP community I am in contact with is largely positive as well, so, sorry to hear you don't like it - but don't presume you speak for roleplayers as a whole. Most of us are quite content.

I never even assumed/presumed that. I'm speaking from MY experience/point of view, and that of my friends who I've spoken to regarding this update.
This is my opinion too, and again, my experience and feelings on it. I'm entitled to my opinion, and to feel the way I do.
I can feel this way. I can feel as though my characters have had their individuality stripped with this. As ESO says, "Play your way" This is MY way.

You absolutely are entitled to play your way.

Your phrasing however was a lot more encompassing.

Saieden · February 2022

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

The Q&A has been posted. On the main sub-forum. The thread is locked.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598865/

That's it? After two weeks?

Performance? That tired old sloth of an excuse that we get every time only to relog and discover the game is even slower and still full of lag and desynchs?

LOL.

No thanks.

I see final fantasy has a free month trial running....

And Elden Ring on Friday. It's almost like they're trying to kill the game at this point.

Fennwitty · February 2022

There's always half a dozen ways to implement a feature.

Accountwide achievement could have been in existence with a modified form of per-character also. You could copy over the current tables into better formed ones, and only query on demand when a player goes to a specific menu for instance.

But ZoS has chosen the easiest way for them to get the results they think they want in this particular release cycle, regardless of consequences.