Maintenance for the week of September 29:
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 29, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
· Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 1, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
· PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 1, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 29, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
· Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 1, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
· PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 1, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 11.2.2 is available.
PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements
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nightstrike✭✭✭✭✭we don't pull 50+ hours/week at ZOS working on this. A little perspective towards the people at ZOS that have spent a lot of time working on this, & probably proud of their hard work.
Excellent work takes significant effort. If it were easy, it wouldn't be excellent. But just because you put in substantial time doesn't mean you automatically succeed. Sometimes, you fail. I'd suggest that the developers involved learn from those failures.
You know, I was at a conference a few years back where someone gave an awful presentation on work he had been doing for the past several years. The presentation itself was poor (bad speaker, bad slides, etc.), but worse, the actual content, the work that he did, was useless. During the Q&A, an audience member called him out on all of the issues with his research, the flawed conclusions he presented, the lack of understanding of the technology, etc. It was quite embarrassing. The audience member that spoke up was chastised for it pretty harshly.
During the dinner, we were waiting in line (buffet style), and he started riffing about it. For instance, every time someone put a piece of food on their plate, he'd say that it was a wonderful job.. "you chose the perfect food; you scooped that so well; thank you so much;" etc. I couldn't stop laughing (obviously, my recanting of this is as bad as the original presentation), but his point was solid.
On a more relevant note, I expect my own staff to achieve certain levels of excellence with some frequency. And I do not reward them for failing to achieve said excellence. If one of them gave me this AWA as a deliverable, first, I would blame myself for letting it get this far. But second, we would table the project and conduct a kind of after action review to figure out what in the world happened. At no time would I expect that anyone would feel proud of the results. I do not give out participation trophies.Warning: This signature is tiny!14 -
silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nightstrike wrote: »Literally, anything reassuring would be awesome right about now. Even, "Hey folks, as mentioned we are still working on a detailed Q&A for you who are invested in this direct discussion, as well as the greater ESO community. We're hoping to get that to you very early next week. The devil is in the details! Until then, here are a few things we want to let you know about the upcoming AWA changes that will hopefully set minds at ease from both sides of this debate.."
The silence makes them appear indecisive. And it's entirely possible that they still don't know what they are going to do about this situation. It's easy to imagine that there are varied opinions amongst the ZOS employees, and the fact that this is going to hurt sales makes it more imperative than some simple class/set/weapon balance issue.
I dunno, to me, the silence is just par for the course. ZOS doesn't really have a habit of communicating their thoughts. They shove things through without listening or responding to feedback with every major PTS change, so I don't see this being much different.
How often is there something other than silence? 3, maybe 4 times in the history of the entire game?
But they actually went out of their way with the AWA feedback to tell us they were reading it and "considering" it. They never use those kind of words on things they are 100% determined to push through. And they bought themselves time by stating that they were preparing a Q&A for us at some indefinite point in the future, rather than addressing our concerns outright.
So there's still hope that they will make the right decision and cancel, or at least postpone the implementation as it currently is.
[PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com6 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭How do you know you've successfully gotten a trifecta if you've earned it once on another toon?
What, we have to manually start setting stop watches?
The new norm is, "I think I did it? Oh well, close enough" *pats self on back*
It's weak. It's a shadow of its former self.
And yes, once I've gotten all the achievements I would stop playing a game....
Then create a new character and start all over again. Fresh. Nothing carried over.
...People already use stop watches, though?
This is such a weird thing to bring up, considering 2/3rd of the platforms don't have mods to tell them times, when to push the buttons on what skills, etc. Maybe consider looking at the vanilla game to remember what is actually the game and isn't mods, because the base game doesn't do ANYTHING to tell you the time of your speedrun while you're doing it in any location there is a speedrun.
So yeah, people DO manually set stop watches, even without account wide achievements.
I'm on console champ
I'm on console too, "champ". 0 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭silvereyes wrote: »
Nobody was talking about tracking elapsed time during the fight. You are tilting at windmills here.How do you know you've successfully gotten a trifecta if you've earned it once on another toon?
What, we have to manually start setting stop watches?
The new norm is, "I think I did it? Oh well, close enough" *pats self on back*
It's weak. It's a shadow of its former self.
And yes, once I've gotten all the achievements I would stop playing a game....
Then create a new character and start all over again. Fresh. Nothing carried over.
...People already use stop watches, though?
This is such a weird thing to bring up, considering 2/3rd of the platforms don't have mods to tell them times, when to push the buttons on what skills, etc. Maybe consider looking at the vanilla game to remember what is actually the game and isn't mods, because the base game doesn't do ANYTHING to tell you the time of your speedrun while you're doing it in any location there is a speedrun.
Then what do stopwatches have to do with it otherwise? [snip] explain what other use stop watches have while doing a trifecta on anotehr toon, if not to track for the speed run achievement?
[edited for minor baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on February 21, 2022 1:24PM0 -
Zephiran23✭✭✭✭In General a few players have posted their achievements on getting a pacifist character to level 50. Such a character should not have access to any title that requires killing, yet as I understand it they would.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/208673/the-pacifist-challenge
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/557651/a-peaceful-stroll-reaching-level-50-without-any-recorded-kills/p110 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭Hopefully we get some news on the bugs today, overall really excited for the change. I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out. I'm glad I'll be able to focus on what I like to do and experience new things, play on different characters, and just overall have a more free(from my own completionist mind) way of playing the game.
This can also free up some time for me to do and play other things besides ESO, while this might seem like a negative to some people it to me is a very good thing, I've played this game for almost 3 years now with an obsession that I realize was not healthy, I've spent thousands of dollars (mostly with cosmetics). It got so bad to the point where I considered flat out quitting, but this change has given me a new reason to play; being able to experience the game through other characters while at the same time not invalidating all the work I've previously done.
Overall I'm very happy with the AwA implementation, the things that I don't think should be there aren't (motif knowledge, recipes, etc.) with as mentioned before my only concern being for other people and not myself.2 -
Ugh_Tech✭✭✭✭I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge, skill-levels or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA. For example you'd get the achievement arch-mage from the beginning - but that doesn't raise your skill-level of the mages guild.Edited by Ugh_Tech on February 21, 2022 1:57PMGebt mir meinen charakterbasierten Fortschritt zurück!6 -
_Zathras_✭✭✭✭✭
✭nightstrike wrote: »If one of them gave me this AWA as a deliverable, first, I would blame myself for letting it get this far. But second, we would table the project and conduct a kind of after action review to figure out what in the world happened. At no time would I expect that anyone would feel proud of the results. I do not give out participation trophies.
My partner is a government exec, and I get to hear very similar accounts from time to time. Not about the public lambasting (to that degree), but of deliverables that are so rotten and ill thought out that it's any wonder they made it past an initial review stage, let alone being put on the final desk to be signed off.
Yet, they do get pushed through, supported, and those little nuggets get polished and praised. I've seen an awful lot of nuggets get pushed through because of someone else's "vision".
Whatever lands at the feet of this community in a couple of weeks, it won't be a collaborative effort. As in, the Q&A (if it arrives) will just be a declaration of what's coming, not a generous offer to the community to sit around a table for development insights.
And that's fair. But there should be a point where they take a hard look at what they are proposing, and ask themselves if it's a) really worth it and/or b) if it needs a little more time in the oven.
Edited by _Zathras_ on February 21, 2022 1:54PM10 -
SerafinaWaterstar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Can someone please explain to me why being one kind of completionist is ok (account wide achievements) but being another (individual character achievements) is not?
And @Zezin
being able to experience the game through other characters while at the same time not invalidating all the work I've previously done.
But you won’t be able to do that. As has been repeatedly explained and referenced. You other characters will have already done it all if you have done it once.
And sorry but your inability to monitor & control your own time in the game does not merit such a drastic redesign.13 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me. The reason I'm ok with motifs and recipes being excluded is because those are not achievements, those are crafting knowledge and are also links with the market. As for skill points I feel like they should be acc wide too but that's neither here nor there, as I said they're not achievements per se.2 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »Can someone please explain to me why being one kind of completionist is ok (account wide achievements) but being another (individual character achievements) is not?
And @Zezin
being able to experience the game through other characters while at the same time not invalidating all the work I've previously done.
But you won’t be able to do that. As has been repeatedly explained and referenced. You other characters will have already done it all if you have done it once.
And sorry but your inability to monitor & control your own time in the game does not merit such a drastic redesign.
That's where personal preference for what content you enjoy doing comes in, I like doing dungeons, trials, pvp, questing. None of that gets affected by the AwA, as I stated my only concern with AwA is how it affects other people, to me it is nothing but an advantage, a pure QoL improvement.
Edit: Also please avoid attacking my own personal way to play, it achieves nothing, I'm not doing so for your play style or personal choices and I would like the same respect, I know these kinds of discussions can get heated but what you're doing leads nowhere.Edited by Zezin on February 21, 2022 2:04PM2 -
silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
We were talking about how self-motivation and a number on a stopwatch aren't as motivating as an official achievement popup from the game.silvereyes wrote: »
Nobody was talking about tracking elapsed time during the fight. You are tilting at windmills here.How do you know you've successfully gotten a trifecta if you've earned it once on another toon?
What, we have to manually start setting stop watches?
The new norm is, "I think I did it? Oh well, close enough" *pats self on back*
It's weak. It's a shadow of its former self.
And yes, once I've gotten all the achievements I would stop playing a game....
Then create a new character and start all over again. Fresh. Nothing carried over.
...People already use stop watches, though?
This is such a weird thing to bring up, considering 2/3rd of the platforms don't have mods to tell them times, when to push the buttons on what skills, etc. Maybe consider looking at the vanilla game to remember what is actually the game and isn't mods, because the base game doesn't do ANYTHING to tell you the time of your speedrun while you're doing it in any location there is a speedrun.
Then what do stopwatches have to do with it otherwise? [snip] explain what other use stop watches have while doing a trifecta on anotehr toon, if not to track for the speed run achievement?
[edited for minor baiting]
Think of it like this. In the US, we have this thing in primary school called the, "Presidential Fitness Award," an achievement-like system that attempts to motivate children to do their best in physical education class. One of the criteria for getting the award is to run a mile in under 7 minutes. Nobody except the instructor is out there with their own stopwatches. The ones that care just do their best, move as efficiently and consistently as possible, and hopefully when the get to the end, they've met the criteria and get the award.
ZOS removing speed run achievement popups for second characters would be like removing the teacher and the award from this scenario. Sure, there might be a handful of kids that are self-motivated enough to remember the award from last year and want to challenge themselves to do it again and bring their own equipment, but they would be in the vast minority. Without the award at the end, most people just won't care enough to bother.[PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com6 -
Ugh_Tech✭✭✭✭I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.Gebt mir meinen charakterbasierten Fortschritt zurück!8 -
Mephit✭✭✭✭I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me. The reason I'm ok with motifs and recipes being excluded is because those are not achievements, those are crafting knowledge and are also links with the market. As for skill points I feel like they should be acc wide too but that's neither here nor there, as I said they're not achievements per se.
I disagree. I see achievements as "character level" completion of the game, and it's been that way since 2014.
Introducing AWA is fine, but as something "new", above and beyond what we already have, with a migration of achievements from character level > account level on a case by case basis, cos we all agree some should.6 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.2 -
Mephit✭✭✭✭nightstrike wrote: »
Ok, fine... personally happy if none move and they leave it (character level).
I was just offering room for a compromise, cos those in favour of AWA must be able to convince me / you that something should be AW right?
Edited by Mephit on February 21, 2022 2:52PM0 -
Ugh_Tech✭✭✭✭I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.Gebt mir meinen charakterbasierten Fortschritt zurück!6 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that. This is an issue unique to ESO and a problem they should have addressed much sooner.
Edit: I also feel that leaving this for add-ons to implement is a poor choice, not only does it exclude anyone on console but it also relies on a source outside of the game to maintain it.Edited by Zezin on February 21, 2022 3:08PM0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nightstrike wrote: »Literally, anything reassuring would be awesome right about now. Even, "Hey folks, as mentioned we are still working on a detailed Q&A for you who are invested in this direct discussion, as well as the greater ESO community. We're hoping to get that to you very early next week. The devil is in the details! Until then, here are a few things we want to let you know about the upcoming AWA changes that will hopefully set minds at ease from both sides of this debate.."
The silence makes them appear indecisive. And it's entirely possible that they still don't know what they are going to do about this situation. It's easy to imagine that there are varied opinions amongst the ZOS employees, and the fact that this is going to hurt sales makes it more imperative than some simple class/set/weapon balance issue.
I dunno, to me, the silence is just par for the course. ZOS doesn't really have a habit of communicating their thoughts. They shove things through without listening or responding to feedback with every major PTS change, so I don't see this being much different.
How often is there something other than silence? 3, maybe 4 times in the history of the entire game?
For quite some time now, patch note announcements have been accompanied by developers' notes explaining the changes, and the current combat changes have been fully previewed and discussed by the combat team in forum posts. There's no reason why they shouldn't be expected to conduct similar discussions over the achievements change rather than ignoring the feedback and pushing their initial mess through regardless.7 -
nightstrike✭✭✭✭✭I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
To add to your comment, I also personally don't care one bit what any other game does. This is Elder Scrolls. This is a franchise that lets me do whatever I darn well please.
I really do feel the worst for those pacifist types. That's a great example of Elder Scrolls being Elder Scrolls, and why what works elsewhere doesn't work here.
I made a comment in one of the Battlegrounds threads that taking away choice is the worst thing to do for any change to the game. I also commented that the current crop of developers seem to be doing that constantly. I feel like they need to take a sabbatical, fire up TES3, hop off the boat in Seyda Neen, completely ignore the prophecy and Cascious, and go off in any random direction to learn what real adventuring is about. Work for something. Build something. Life doesn't get handed to you.Edited by nightstrike on February 21, 2022 3:10PMWarning: This signature is tiny!12 -
nightstrike✭✭✭✭✭lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
We aren't confused. We just treat characters as separate entities. They haven't achieved anything until they do.
I personally extend this to having characters that represent really achieving something vs characters that are present when something happens. For instance, walking too close to a world boss and accidentally "achieving" it because someone else killed it. I have a character for which I don't care about those and one for which I do.Edit: I also feel that leaving this for add-ons to implement is a poor choice, not only does it exclude anyone on console but it also relies on a source outside of the game to maintain it.
I agree in principle, but we already have addons that make the entire UI usable. Have you ever tried crafting without addons? Or using the guild store? Or a million other things... once you do, it's really hard to go back to the vanilla UI.
Warning: This signature is tiny!4 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »Marcusorion1 wrote: »" One Tamriel " must not become " Tamriel Once ".
" Play it your way " must not become " Play it your way ( the first time, after that not so much ) "
This sums it up perfectly.
It would if the change actually stopped you from playing but as of now to my knoledge less than 10 quest are not replayable and i think tose arent intended and may be one of the bugs that gina mentionned to be fixed by launch
I respectfully disagree. Getting that "you did this!" pop up is part of the fun for many and it will not be possible to get that pop-up again for any achievements that are account-wide.
I just experienced it this morning... I went to Imperial City because one of my friends was working on the Midyear Mayhem dailies and invited me to join; I got a pop up that said something like "Imperial City Recruit." I thought, "oh, wow, that's cool, I guess I never took this character into Imperial City before!" Literally all I had to do was enter and kill one player, it required almost zero effort, but it was fun to get the acknowledgement. I was grouped and it happened so fast that I don't think I even contributed to the kill at all. After the update there will be so many of those little moments that can be experienced only once.
Therefore I think this change is turning us into "Tamriel Once" and "Play it your way ( the first time, after that not so much )" from that perspective. It will never, ever FEEL fresh and shiny and new again on an alt. Not for me or anyone who enjoyed getting feedback from the game when re-doing content on other characters. And honestly it is the surprise moments that I like the best, not the ones where I go out to obtain the achievement specifically.16 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭nightstrike wrote: »lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
We aren't confused. We just treat characters as separate entities. They haven't achieved anything until they do.
I personally extend this to having characters that represent really achieving something vs characters that are present when something happens. For instance, walking too close to a world boss and accidentally "achieving" it because someone else killed it. I have a character for which I don't care about those and one for which I do.Edit: I also feel that leaving this for add-ons to implement is a poor choice, not only does it exclude anyone on console but it also relies on a source outside of the game to maintain it.
I agree in principle, but we already have addons that make the entire UI usable. Have you ever tried crafting without addons? Or using the guild store? Or a million other things... once you do, it's really hard to go back to the vanilla UI.
By almost every definition of it achievements are something players accomplish there are no character achievements in any other TES games or any MMOs that I know of, what you have are journals with accomplishments. Regardless of personal opinion on achievements are there is a definition for them that has been forged by the video game industry itself.
Regarding addons I myself use lots and lots of them, there is however undoubtedly a massive advantage granted to those who use them, and they're not without consequences, I do believe 90% of the inflation problems we have on PC are because of addons. They also cause developers to make fights more difficult in anticipation of players using add-ons, something that is particularly problematic in console.Edited by Zezin on February 21, 2022 3:29PM0 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You know, I just thought of something.
I know we all have a bunch of conspiracy theories about why they're doing this now (as opposed to at any other time), and the fact that they didn't try to sell this as 'it'll improve performance' (which they do if anything does have a chance to improve performance slightly) makes me think it's not that. I'm betting the main goal is to get console achievements to pop by basically re-popping every achievement.
But that's beside the point.
At the heart of it, I'd want to think about the mechanics of this transfer. If the goal is to get achievements to pop account-wide, and as it's implemented now is that logging onto a character gives a '523 achievements unlocked' popup, that must mean there's an empty database for the account achievements that is being populated, and a filled one for characters that is being copied over.
So... why can't we just keep that character database after the copy? And then the character-specific things that are attached to achievements (like skill points for the group events or MA, zone completion icons, or rune translations) could be tracked on that character list so you could do away with the character icon and you'd get true account-wide achievements. And for those people who don't like to see an empty list, make it so the character view (and its related popups) only are visible when you toggle something like Gameplay > Show Character Achievements and then switch to a second tab on the Achievements page.
That would give several benefits:- Grindy achievements would still tally account-wide. You'd be able to see individual character contributions on the character side, but once you have 10 characters collectively doing 15 Jee-Lar dailies each, the achievement pops. You can still play one of those characters for another 135 days to see their progress and get that one to pop specifically, but the achievement's already earned over the account.
- Account-wide achievements would show all points, including the ones that are currently set up as character-specific. There would be no need to make character-specific achievements since there is a place to track things like that.
- Benefits of account-wide achievements (account-wide titles, anything available at furnishing vendors) will still track from the account side like on PTS so will still work.
- Character Achievements are still intact, are still viewable, and will still pop, but only for players who enable it. Players who want to see only one single list of achievements and only pop them when the first character does them will still have that.
- Zones will not be auto completed and minor non-quests like museums will still be available on alts. Any zone completion things like the issue with the two queens in Elsweyr could also stay character-side so the stories aren't broken.
This style seems to be doing what most people here want. It keeps the character history, but it hides it for anyone who is intimidated by the blanks to be filled. It keeps account tallies, but still lets you explore zones with characters. The only con here is that it is now two databases of achievements so it could bloat character data a bit - it could be reduced a bit by removing the "Earned by:" on the account view (since if you were interested, you could just go look at the characters themselves) or by putting one of the lists into storage in a high-profile area like PvP or trials (and then recopy the new achievements to the other list after leaving the zone).5 -
silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.[PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com18 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
0 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Not even sure why it is so important to "bring it in line with other games"? Fepp other games! What is the point of having a hundred different games if they are all trying to be the same game anyways? Isn't the very point of having hundreds of games exactly that they are all different, for better or worse? This conformity-mania is troubling, to say the least.14 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »nightstrike wrote: »Please do not roll this out as currently designed. Send it back to the drawing board and account for the fact that there are people, myself included, who do not want this feature at all.
Perhaps try monetizing it like with skill points. Charge crowns to insta-get the achievements.
Now nobody will want it
What about the reverse pay to keep it character bound? Less fun, yeah thats what i taught
It.... could be free!! There are things in the Crown store that are 0 crowns and it would probably be not too hard for ZOS to just keep the achievements from applying automatically and instead adding a button to apply them.
I'm not the only one to have thought or suggested this, but I crafted a detailed write-up here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7523126#Comment_7523126
I'll also quote myself to answer your comment about reversing it:Now, the question of course would come... why couldn't the Crown Store item be remove progress or opt out instead of requiring people to apply the progress, and the answer to that is - it's much harder to clear data than it is to apply it. Philosophically it's fine (with me at least) if you wanted the "burden" of choice to be on the people who want to track character specific data, but programmatically I don't think it's practical. All of the current Crown Store things now, like the way skyshard purchases work, look to what's unlocked on the account and ADD to a specific character. Therefore I think applying that concept to achievements would best align with how things work today.
For the record, I would absolutely, without hesitation pay for the ability to keep my achievements character bound. So please don't gloss over that point by assuming no one would like it and therefore it's a nonstarter. Even though I think it's wrong that ZOS would charge for something that we had at no cost for ~8 years. I would still pay for it on the grounds that they'd need the extra funds to tweak the current implementation. I just don't think, if you look at the way OTHER changes have been done in game, that it would be practical (and maybe not possible) to design a button to roll back applied achievements. There would likely only be one "date" per character and once it is overwritten, it could go back to being blank but there would be no reference, without making the database a lot bigger, to have it go back to a previous, per-character earned date. It makes much more sense to have an "apply achievements from other characters" choice, like Skyshards, and then once you apply them you can't go back. Just like once you buy the skyshards you can't later say never mind, get a refund, and have the skill points be removed.
So... I can't speak for everyone but as for myself, yes, @Dark_Lord_Kuro, I would accept a compromise where the proposal was reversed. Yes, I personally would pay to keep this functionality. But... I don't think folks who want AwA should have to pay for them, either! I think it could be in the Crown Store for free, giving almost everyone what they want. (See my detailed write-up for the perspectives that would not be addressed by this idea.)6 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭alberichtano wrote: »silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Not even sure why it is so important to "bring it in line with other games"? Fepp other games! What is the point of having a hundred different games if they are all trying to be the same game anyways? Isn't the very point of having hundreds of games exactly that they are all different, for better or worse? This conformity-mania is troubling, to say the least.
There's a reason some systems get copied, some times they're just better, also I'd hardly say a shooter or a rts game are the same as ESO, achievements are minor compared to the rest of the gameplay for the game.0