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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements
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silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Saying "the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking" makes character tracking sound expendable. It's not.silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Imagine ZOS achievements as a headlamp on a bicycle attached to special generator integrated into the axle of the wheel. Most bicycles (other games) just run their headlamps (achievements) off of batteries, and the wheels (character tracking) run independently.
ZOS is essentially trying to replace the wheel and generator assemblage with just a battery. The "only problem" is that now you have a bicycle missing a wheel. I feel like they missed something important.
[PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com12 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭silvereyes wrote: »
Saying "the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking" makes character tracking sound expendable. It's not.silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Imagine ZOS achievements as a headlamp on a bicycle attached to special generator integrated into the axle of the wheel. Most bicycles (other games) just run their headlamps (achievements) off of batteries, and the wheels (character tracking) run independently.
ZOS is essentially trying to replace the wheel and generator assemblage with just a battery. The "only problem" is that now you have a bicycle missing a wheel. I feel like they missed something important.
I didn't miss it, it's a matter of what one personally thinks is important for them, to me personally it is the only problem, I can see it's not for a lot of people though that fact was never lost. To you it might feel like it will remove the wheel of the bike while to me it's just the bell.2 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
There's a reason some systems get copied, some times they're just better, also I'd hardly say a shooter or a rts game are the same as ESO, achievements are minor compared to the rest of the gameplay for the game.
Well, you have a point. My understanding is that World of Warcraft, an MMO which still has almost 5 million subscribers and has been around since 2004, implemented AwA in such a way that character specific data remained intact.
If we're copying other games... let's do that. That's what I want.
And what an excellent write-up they provided about it, too: Bringing Achievements to the Account Level.
I'd like to quote this specific piece of the article: "However, and this is important, you will still see the achievement toast (the pop-up notification) if a second or subsequent character completes the achievement. We think it’s still important to recognize milestones like reaching level 80, maxing out a profession, or killing a raid boss for the first time. It's fun to have everyone congratulate you when you get the toast. Nonetheless, this will just be a new character of yours completing the achievement that you’ve already earned on your account. You won’t double up on points.
@silvereyes Ty; I fixed the link. Edited by peacenote on February 23, 2022 2:59AM18 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭
There's a reason some systems get copied, some times they're just better, also I'd hardly say a shooter or a rts game are the same as ESO, achievements are minor compared to the rest of the gameplay for the game.
Well, you have a point. My understanding is that World of Warcraft, an MMO which still has almost 5 million subscribers and has been around since 2004, implemented AwA in such a way that character specific data remained intact.
If we're copying other games... let's do that. That's what I want. And what an excellent write-up they provided about it, too: Bringing Achievements to the Account Level.
I'd like to quote this specific piece of the article: "However, and this is important, you will still see the achievement toast (the pop-up notification) if a second or subsequent character completes the achievement. We think it’s still important to recognize milestones like reaching level 80, maxing out a profession, or killing a raid boss for the first time. It's fun to have everyone congratulate you when you get the toast. Nonetheless, this will just be a new character of yours completing the achievement that you’ve already earned on your account. You won’t double up on points.
I agree with you 100%, I think it's the opinion of most that the system needs to be improved on, it's not the best implementation far from it.
One thing that would be nice is if they were to save the current achievements data and implement individual tracking in a later patch, I honestly don't see how they could implement it in the short amount of time they have now.Edited by Zezin on February 21, 2022 4:08PM1 -
majulook✭✭✭✭✭
✭So still nothing from ZOS as to fixing any of the bugs that have been found with this?
So I guess its going live as is.
So sad.
Is this game is pretty much over for a lot of players or will they just suck it up and keep plating?Si vis pacem, para bellum4 -
Mephit✭✭✭✭Since this AWA nonsense all started, I've been spending more time in LOTRO.
For those of you familiar with the game...
Can you imagine starting a new character in LOTRO and it having already completed all the story achievements (deeds)?
No, cos it would be unthinkable!
What do you mean Sauron is already dead?14 -
silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
It's really not about any one player's preferences. ESO is an RPG, and RPGs need character tracking. Not every player will use that feature - which is where the bicycle analogy breaks down - but my point is that it's the developer's responsibility to provide that feature.silvereyes wrote: »
Saying "the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking" makes character tracking sound expendable. It's not.silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Imagine ZOS achievements as a headlamp on a bicycle attached to special generator integrated into the axle of the wheel. Most bicycles (other games) just run their headlamps (achievements) off of batteries, and the wheels (character tracking) run independently.
ZOS is essentially trying to replace the wheel and generator assemblage with just a battery. The "only problem" is that now you have a bicycle missing a wheel. I feel like they missed something important.
I didn't miss it, it's a matter of what one personally thinks is important for them, to me personally it is the only problem, I can see it's not for a lot of people though that fact was never lost. To you it might feel like it will remove the wheel of the bike while to me it's just the bell.[PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com11 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So still nothing from ZOS as to fixing any of the bugs that have been found with this?
So I guess its going live as is.
So sad.
Is this game is pretty much over for a lot of players or will they just suck it up and keep plating?
If the character data is important to the player, and the studio deletes it from the game as if they feel it is not important and just mixes it with account data, why would the player want to stick around?
Sometimes, the game isn't a fit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Edited by Elsonso on February 21, 2022 4:17PMXBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus6 -
Crown_of_Antlers✭✭✭So still nothing from ZOS as to fixing any of the bugs that have been found with this?
Is this game is pretty much over for a lot of players or will they just suck it up and keep playing?
It will be over for my husband and myself. I suppose on the day before this goes live we'll log in and say goodbye to our characters. Like many others who have contributed to this thread, we've put a lot into them and enjoyed the different adventures they've had. We'll miss them, but we would rather never log in on them again than have their achievements all mashed together into one.
Edited by Crown_of_Antlers on February 21, 2022 4:21PM12 -
_Zathras_✭✭✭✭✭
✭..there are no character achievements in any other.. MMOs that I know of..
I'm not sure what point you are trying to hammer out here. Because, even at this very moment, ESO has character specific achievements. It has been that way for 8 years. That is what this whole discussion is about: their intent to nuke the current system and turn it into something entirely different.Regardless of personal opinion on achievements are there is a definition for them that has been forged by the video game industry itself.
And there is no homogeneous Achievement Ruleset that the industry adheres to. If you want to look at one of the big dogs, WoW has character specific achievements as well. So does FFXIV. I'm sure I could do 5 minutes of research and dump out a comprehensive, yet ultimately pointless list of others-- pointless because just because another game does something, does not mean it is the right, nor appropriate, action to do elsewhere.By almost every definition of it achievements are..
Resorting to definitions willfully ignores the other side of this whole discussion. This isn't a bunch of ones and zeroes. We're people. Thankfully this discussion isn't about convincing any one contributor; rather, it is focusing on clearly communicating to @ZOS_GinaBruno that this proposal needs a re-think.
9 -
silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
There's a reason some systems get copied, some times they're just better, also I'd hardly say a shooter or a rts game are the same as ESO, achievements are minor compared to the rest of the gameplay for the game.
Well, you have a point. My understanding is that World of Warcraft, an MMO which still has almost 5 million subscribers and has been around since 2004, implemented AwA in such a way that character specific data remained intact.
If we're copying other games... let's do that. That's what I want. And what an excellent write-up they provided about it, too: Bringing Achievements to the Account Level.
I'd like to quote this specific piece of the article: "However, and this is important, you will still see the achievement toast (the pop-up notification) if a second or subsequent character completes the achievement. We think it’s still important to recognize milestones like reaching level 80, maxing out a profession, or killing a raid boss for the first time. It's fun to have everyone congratulate you when you get the toast. Nonetheless, this will just be a new character of yours completing the achievement that you’ve already earned on your account. You won’t double up on points.
Great article! Btw, your link is mangled. http://https:// should be replaced with https://.Edited by silvereyes on February 21, 2022 4:20PM[PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com1 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭silvereyes wrote: »
It's really not about any one player's preferences. ESO is an RPG, and RPGs need character tracking. Not every player will use that feature - which is where the bicycle analogy breaks down - but my point is that it's the developer's responsibility to provide that feature.silvereyes wrote: »
Saying "the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking" makes character tracking sound expendable. It's not.silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Imagine ZOS achievements as a headlamp on a bicycle attached to special generator integrated into the axle of the wheel. Most bicycles (other games) just run their headlamps (achievements) off of batteries, and the wheels (character tracking) run independently.
ZOS is essentially trying to replace the wheel and generator assemblage with just a battery. The "only problem" is that now you have a bicycle missing a wheel. I feel like they missed something important.
I didn't miss it, it's a matter of what one personally thinks is important for them, to me personally it is the only problem, I can see it's not for a lot of people though that fact was never lost. To you it might feel like it will remove the wheel of the bike while to me it's just the bell.
My "bell" is the character tracking, nice to have but not essential for me and white ESO is an RPG it's also an MMO and a video game. My point is that people should be asking for a character tracking feature instead of being against the AwA.
If I'm being honest the RPG part of ESO while admittedly is the best out of any MMORPG is also poor compared to games that are just RPGs without the MMO part, kind of irrelevant for the discussion though.
Edit: it's always about player preference.Edited by Zezin on February 21, 2022 4:27PM0 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭silvereyes wrote: »
Saying "the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking" makes character tracking sound expendable. It's not.silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Imagine ZOS achievements as a headlamp on a bicycle attached to special generator integrated into the axle of the wheel. Most bicycles (other games) just run their headlamps (achievements) off of batteries, and the wheels (character tracking) run independently.
ZOS is essentially trying to replace the wheel and generator assemblage with just a battery. The "only problem" is that now you have a bicycle missing a wheel. I feel like they missed something important.
I didn't miss it, it's a matter of what one personally thinks is important for them, to me personally it is the only problem, I can see it's not for a lot of people though that fact was never lost. To you it might feel like it will remove the wheel of the bike while to me it's just the bell.
Yes, the removal of character data may be a non-issue to some people, but a system where there is no removal of anything is inherently better since it doesn't force some people to lose something they had. That only makes that population feel resentful of another group because its essentially ZOS saying "we're taking away something you like to give it to someone else." How can anyone not feel betrayed like that?
Besides, I would like to point out the general population and direction of this game. A lot of people on the forums want to pretend this is still the same game it was back in 2014, where all of the casual questing was just the grind to get to the true endgame: PvP. But the vison of this game has changed a lot since then, and ZOS has pivoted to a different market: casual TES fans, who for a long time stayed away from ESO because of the MMO and forced grouping parts.
Why do you think they played up the nostalgia getting to Morrowind at Seyda Neen, which is by all accounts just a backwater? Why randomly throw dragons into Elsweyr? Why have a whole story set in Skyrim where very little about the cities changed? Why play up the fact that we were going to the Deadlands in the 15th anniversary of TES:IV? Why do you think they so carefully avoided any mention of "MMO" in that latest presentation, instead trying to talk about how much you could do alone?
ZOS definitely wants to get into that market of casual Elder Scrolls fans, who are a bit antsy they haven't gotten a main-series game in the past ten years at this point (and have nothing more than a teaser to hold them over for the next who-knows-how-many years). However, the TES series is well known for its massive open worlds and exploration opportunities, for the ability to make a character however you want and fully get into playing a role.
...and ZOS is making it so all of our characters have to have the same character record? We're getting a map that checks everything off as soon as one character has seen it once? We're getting events that cease to occur because some other character found a museum piece or talked to a spawned NPC?
Again, this isn't a comment on you specifically since I see that you'd favor a two-tab view, like many people here. I just want to point out that the thing they're taking away is one of the defining features of the game series that they're actively trying to attract the playerbase from.16 -
Mephit✭✭✭✭silvereyes wrote: »
It's really not about any one player's preferences. ESO is an RPG, and RPGs need character tracking. Not every player will use that feature - which is where the bicycle analogy breaks down - but my point is that it's the developer's responsibility to provide that feature.silvereyes wrote: »
Saying "the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking" makes character tracking sound expendable. It's not.silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Imagine ZOS achievements as a headlamp on a bicycle attached to special generator integrated into the axle of the wheel. Most bicycles (other games) just run their headlamps (achievements) off of batteries, and the wheels (character tracking) run independently.
ZOS is essentially trying to replace the wheel and generator assemblage with just a battery. The "only problem" is that now you have a bicycle missing a wheel. I feel like they missed something important.
I didn't miss it, it's a matter of what one personally thinks is important for them, to me personally it is the only problem, I can see it's not for a lot of people though that fact was never lost. To you it might feel like it will remove the wheel of the bike while to me it's just the bell.
My "bell" is the character tracking, nice to have but not essential for me and white ESO is an RPG it's also an MMO and a video game. My point is that people should be asking for a character tracking feature instead of being against the AwA.
If I'm being honest the RPG part of ESO while admittedly is the best out of any MMORPG is also poor compared to games that are just RPGs without the MMO part, kind of irrelevant for the discussion though.
We have a character tracking feature already (A), and we're not against AWA (B). We're against losing A to achieve B.15 -
nightstrike✭✭✭✭✭So still nothing from ZOS as to fixing any of the bugs that have been found with this?
So I guess its going live as is.
So sad.
Is this game is pretty much over for a lot of players or will they just suck it up and keep plating?
If the character data is important to the player, and the studio deletes it from the game as if they feel it is not important and just mixes it with account data, why would the player want to stick around? Sometimes, the game isn't a fit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedoWarning: This signature is tiny!2 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭So still nothing from ZOS as to fixing any of the bugs that have been found with this?
So I guess its going live as is.
So sad.
Is this game is pretty much over for a lot of players or will they just suck it up and keep plating?
If the character data is important to the player, and the studio deletes it from the game as if they feel it is not important and just mixes it with account data, why would the player want to stick around? Sometimes, the game isn't a fit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The issue is that the game is eight years old now.
Imagine for a moment that you are buying a new car, and someone sells you a car that is auto-driven, with no manual controls at all. At that point you have a choice wether to buy it or not.
If you, however, are driving a car you have used for eight years, and the makers suddenly barge in and remove the steering wheel, the stick, everything and leave you with an auto-driven car with no way to drive it manually any more... you'd probably feel more than a little cheated, wouldn't you.10 -
Mephit✭✭✭✭alberichtano wrote: »So still nothing from ZOS as to fixing any of the bugs that have been found with this?
So I guess its going live as is.
So sad.
Is this game is pretty much over for a lot of players or will they just suck it up and keep plating?
If the character data is important to the player, and the studio deletes it from the game as if they feel it is not important and just mixes it with account data, why would the player want to stick around? Sometimes, the game isn't a fit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The issue is that the game is eight years old now.
Imagine for a moment that you are buying a new car, and someone sells you a car that is auto-driven, with no manual controls at all. At that point you have a choice wether to buy it or not.
If you, however, are driving a car you have used for eight years, and the makers suddenly barge in and remove the steering wheel, the stick, everything and leave you with an auto-driven car with no way to drive it manually any more... you'd probably feel more than a little cheated, wouldn't you.
Or you buy a brand new car and it's already done 100k miles!4 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭Feels like we are all talking in circles in this thread, in the end it's going to depend on what ZOS says in the Q&A.3
-
Kesstryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »You know, I just thought of something.
I know we all have a bunch of conspiracy theories about why they're doing this now (as opposed to at any other time), and the fact that they didn't try to sell this as 'it'll improve performance' (which they do if anything does have a chance to improve performance slightly) makes me think it's not that. I'm betting the main goal is to get console achievements to pop by basically re-popping every achievement.
But that's beside the point.
At the heart of it, I'd want to think about the mechanics of this transfer. If the goal is to get achievements to pop account-wide, and as it's implemented now is that logging onto a character gives a '523 achievements unlocked' popup, that must mean there's an empty database for the account achievements that is being populated, and a filled one for characters that is being copied over.
So... why can't we just keep that character database after the copy? And then the character-specific things that are attached to achievements (like skill points for the group events or MA, zone completion icons, or rune translations) could be tracked on that character list so you could do away with the character icon and you'd get true account-wide achievements. And for those people who don't like to see an empty list, make it so the character view (and its related popups) only are visible when you toggle something like Gameplay > Show Character Achievements and then switch to a second tab on the Achievements page.
That would give several benefits:- Grindy achievements would still tally account-wide. You'd be able to see individual character contributions on the character side, but once you have 10 characters collectively doing 15 Jee-Lar dailies each, the achievement pops. You can still play one of those characters for another 135 days to see their progress and get that one to pop specifically, but the achievement's already earned over the account.
- Account-wide achievements would show all points, including the ones that are currently set up as character-specific. There would be no need to make character-specific achievements since there is a place to track things like that.
- Benefits of account-wide achievements (account-wide titles, anything available at furnishing vendors) will still track from the account side like on PTS so will still work.
- Character Achievements are still intact, are still viewable, and will still pop, but only for players who enable it. Players who want to see only one single list of achievements and only pop them when the first character does them will still have that.
- Zones will not be auto completed and minor non-quests like museums will still be available on alts. Any zone completion things like the issue with the two queens in Elsweyr could also stay character-side so the stories aren't broken.
This style seems to be doing what most people here want. It keeps the character history, but it hides it for anyone who is intimidated by the blanks to be filled. It keeps account tallies, but still lets you explore zones with characters. The only con here is that it is now two databases of achievements so it could bloat character data a bit - it could be reduced a bit by removing the "Earned by:" on the account view (since if you were interested, you could just go look at the characters themselves) or by putting one of the lists into storage in a high-profile area like PvP or trials (and then recopy the new achievements to the other list after leaving the zone).
This is exactly what I want, someone hire this guy for the idea team. ZOS pay attention to this post!HEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts! Contact @Kesstryl in-game to join.2 -
Ugh_Tech✭✭✭✭nightstrike wrote: »lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
We aren't confused. We just treat characters as separate entities. They haven't achieved anything until they do.
I personally extend this to having characters that represent really achieving something vs characters that are present when something happens. For instance, walking too close to a world boss and accidentally "achieving" it because someone else killed it. I have a character for which I don't care about those and one for which I do.Edit: I also feel that leaving this for add-ons to implement is a poor choice, not only does it exclude anyone on console but it also relies on a source outside of the game to maintain it.
I agree in principle, but we already have addons that make the entire UI usable. Have you ever tried crafting without addons? Or using the guild store? Or a million other things... once you do, it's really hard to go back to the vanilla UI.
By almost every definition of it achievements are something players accomplish there are no character achievements in any other TES games or any MMOs that I know of, what you have are journals with accomplishments. Regardless of personal opinion on achievements are there is a definition for them that has been forged by the video game industry itself.
Sorry, but although I basically agree, that achievements are per player/account in other games, that's beyond the point imho.
There IS a system to track character progress and it has been in place from the very beginning of ESO, amost eight years ago. And that system is about to cut out, while a (obviously not so small) part of the community wants to keep it (including me).
It's about the possibility to track character progress - if you, ZOS, anyone else or me calls it's 'units' achievements, trophies, medals or ding-*** doesn't matter, as long as it exists and works well.
Just let's keep to the basic problem and not circle around smaller details.
Edited by Ugh_Tech on February 21, 2022 4:42PMGebt mir meinen charakterbasierten Fortschritt zurück!7 -
silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Fair enough, but I've only seen about 4 or 5 people here saying that they are against AwA on principle, so that's not really a huge concern.silvereyes wrote: »
It's really not about any one player's preferences. ESO is an RPG, and RPGs need character tracking. Not every player will use that feature - which is where the bicycle analogy breaks down - but my point is that it's the developer's responsibility to provide that feature.silvereyes wrote: »
Saying "the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking" makes character tracking sound expendable. It's not.silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Imagine ZOS achievements as a headlamp on a bicycle attached to special generator integrated into the axle of the wheel. Most bicycles (other games) just run their headlamps (achievements) off of batteries, and the wheels (character tracking) run independently.
ZOS is essentially trying to replace the wheel and generator assemblage with just a battery. The "only problem" is that now you have a bicycle missing a wheel. I feel like they missed something important.
I didn't miss it, it's a matter of what one personally thinks is important for them, to me personally it is the only problem, I can see it's not for a lot of people though that fact was never lost. To you it might feel like it will remove the wheel of the bike while to me it's just the bell.
My "bell" is the character tracking, nice to have but not essential for me and white ESO is an RPG it's also an MMO and a video game. My point is that people should be asking for a character tracking feature instead of being against the AwA.
Anyone asking for "optionality" or "separate tabs" isn't against AwA. Anyone asking for the feature to be "postponed" and better thought-out isn't against AwA.
In fact, I did a bit of data collection of the first 557 posts in this threads, after which I got too bored, but I'll share what I found. Of the 172 posters in those first 557 posts, 83 of them (48.25%) indicated a desire for some sort of compromise - be it an opt-out / opt-in, a separate tab, a new character tracker, or limiting the scope of which achievements go account-wide - and most of the rest didn't indicate a preference one way or another. That's an amazing amount of consensus for such a controversial topic.
In the end, it doesn't really matter if ZOS calls the character tracking "achievements" or not. It's the functionality people want, not the word. ZOS has full creative freedom with how they implement that functionality.[PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com11 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nightstrike wrote: »So still nothing from ZOS as to fixing any of the bugs that have been found with this?
So I guess its going live as is.
So sad.
Is this game is pretty much over for a lot of players or will they just suck it up and keep plating?
If the character data is important to the player, and the studio deletes it from the game as if they feel it is not important and just mixes it with account data, why would the player want to stick around? Sometimes, the game isn't a fit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo
Wikipedia does not seem to have a Latin entry for "Responde de quaestione"
Basically... Yes... I do expect that people will leave this game over this issue.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus7 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭silvereyes wrote: »
Fair enough, but I've only seen about 4 or 5 people here saying that they are against AwA on principle, so that's not really a huge concern.silvereyes wrote: »
It's really not about any one player's preferences. ESO is an RPG, and RPGs need character tracking. Not every player will use that feature - which is where the bicycle analogy breaks down - but my point is that it's the developer's responsibility to provide that feature.silvereyes wrote: »
Saying "the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking" makes character tracking sound expendable. It's not.silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Imagine ZOS achievements as a headlamp on a bicycle attached to special generator integrated into the axle of the wheel. Most bicycles (other games) just run their headlamps (achievements) off of batteries, and the wheels (character tracking) run independently.
ZOS is essentially trying to replace the wheel and generator assemblage with just a battery. The "only problem" is that now you have a bicycle missing a wheel. I feel like they missed something important.
I didn't miss it, it's a matter of what one personally thinks is important for them, to me personally it is the only problem, I can see it's not for a lot of people though that fact was never lost. To you it might feel like it will remove the wheel of the bike while to me it's just the bell.
My "bell" is the character tracking, nice to have but not essential for me and white ESO is an RPG it's also an MMO and a video game. My point is that people should be asking for a character tracking feature instead of being against the AwA.
Anyone asking for "optionality" or "separate tabs" isn't against AwA. Anyone asking for the feature to be "postponed" and better thought-out isn't against AwA.
In fact, I did a bit of data collection of the first 557 posts in this threads, after which I got too bored, but I'll share what I found. Of the 172 posters in those first 557 posts, 83 of them (48.25%) indicated a desire for some sort of compromise - be it an opt-out / opt-in, a separate tab, a new character tracker, or limiting the scope of which achievements go account-wide - and most of the rest didn't indicate a preference one way or another. That's an amazing amount of consensus for such a controversial topic.
In the end, it doesn't really matter if ZOS calls the character tracking "achievements" or not. It's the functionality people want, not the word. ZOS has full creative freedom with how they implement that functionality.
Believe it or not a word matters a lot in this context, if they were to rename it to something else the discussion would be very different, the entire reason why people want this is because of what achievements represent, if instead we had this:
We would not be having this discussion, people who care about achievements as a metric of game completion don't care as much(some do) about character tracking.1 -
KMarble✭✭✭✭✭nightstrike wrote: »Literally, anything reassuring would be awesome right about now. Even, "Hey folks, as mentioned we are still working on a detailed Q&A for you who are invested in this direct discussion, as well as the greater ESO community. We're hoping to get that to you very early next week. The devil is in the details! Until then, here are a few things we want to let you know about the upcoming AWA changes that will hopefully set minds at ease from both sides of this debate.."
The silence makes them appear indecisive. And it's entirely possible that they still don't know what they are going to do about this situation. It's easy to imagine that there are varied opinions amongst the ZOS employees, and the fact that this is going to hurt sales makes it more imperative than some simple class/set/weapon balance issue.
I dunno, to me, the silence is just par for the course. ZOS doesn't really have a habit of communicating their thoughts. They shove things through without listening or responding to feedback with every major PTS change, so I don't see this being much different.
How often is there something other than silence? 3, maybe 4 times in the history of the entire game?
But they actually went out of their way with the AWA feedback to tell us they were reading it and "considering" it. They never use those kind of words on things they are 100% determined to push through. And they bought themselves time by stating that they were preparing a Q&A for us at some indefinite point in the future, rather than addressing our concerns outright.
So there's still hope that they will make the right decision and cancel, or at least postpone the implementation as it currently is.
The optimist in me hopes you're right, but the realist in me tells me you're not. So far all we had from ZOS were empty words. I suspect we only got some kind of response from them because 1. the subject of communication has been brought up time and time again, and 2. Kevin was probably hired to keep things under control while not actually giving us any info.
I don't know about others, but I've been refraining from telling friends/guildies about this mess. I'm doing this in the (ever diminishing) hope that ZOS will not only address the issue with us here on the PTS sub-forum, but actually do something about it.
I'm also waiting for them to speak up so I can decide how to approach the game from there on. IMO, ZOS silence so far is is just a strategy to gain time in hope that FOMO will eventually hit the ones who are still waiting for a decision before buying the chapter/crowns.1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nightstrike wrote: »So still nothing from ZOS as to fixing any of the bugs that have been found with this?
So I guess its going live as is.
So sad.
Is this game is pretty much over for a lot of players or will they just suck it up and keep plating?
If the character data is important to the player, and the studio deletes it from the game as if they feel it is not important and just mixes it with account data, why would the player want to stick around? Sometimes, the game isn't a fit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo
Wikipedia does not seem to have a Latin entry for "Responde de quaestione"
Basically... Yes... I do expect that people will leave this game over this issue.
Reason being, it won't be the same game people started playing in the last eight years. The 'scoring" will be completely different. How the score is kept is a basic function of any game, and should never be changed.
Edited by Jaraal on February 21, 2022 4:56PM7 -
silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Character tracking != only global counters. If you are going to argue that words matter, please at least get the definitions correct.silvereyes wrote: »
Fair enough, but I've only seen about 4 or 5 people here saying that they are against AwA on principle, so that's not really a huge concern.silvereyes wrote: »
It's really not about any one player's preferences. ESO is an RPG, and RPGs need character tracking. Not every player will use that feature - which is where the bicycle analogy breaks down - but my point is that it's the developer's responsibility to provide that feature.silvereyes wrote: »
Saying "the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking" makes character tracking sound expendable. It's not.silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Imagine ZOS achievements as a headlamp on a bicycle attached to special generator integrated into the axle of the wheel. Most bicycles (other games) just run their headlamps (achievements) off of batteries, and the wheels (character tracking) run independently.
ZOS is essentially trying to replace the wheel and generator assemblage with just a battery. The "only problem" is that now you have a bicycle missing a wheel. I feel like they missed something important.
I didn't miss it, it's a matter of what one personally thinks is important for them, to me personally it is the only problem, I can see it's not for a lot of people though that fact was never lost. To you it might feel like it will remove the wheel of the bike while to me it's just the bell.
My "bell" is the character tracking, nice to have but not essential for me and white ESO is an RPG it's also an MMO and a video game. My point is that people should be asking for a character tracking feature instead of being against the AwA.
Anyone asking for "optionality" or "separate tabs" isn't against AwA. Anyone asking for the feature to be "postponed" and better thought-out isn't against AwA.
In fact, I did a bit of data collection of the first 557 posts in this threads, after which I got too bored, but I'll share what I found. Of the 172 posters in those first 557 posts, 83 of them (48.25%) indicated a desire for some sort of compromise - be it an opt-out / opt-in, a separate tab, a new character tracker, or limiting the scope of which achievements go account-wide - and most of the rest didn't indicate a preference one way or another. That's an amazing amount of consensus for such a controversial topic.
In the end, it doesn't really matter if ZOS calls the character tracking "achievements" or not. It's the functionality people want, not the word. ZOS has full creative freedom with how they implement that functionality.
Believe it or not a word matters a lot in this context, if they were to rename it to something else the discussion would be very different, the entire reason why people want this is because of what achievements represent, if instead we had this:We would not be having this discussion, people who care about achievements as a metric of game completion don't care as much(some do) about character tracking.
When we say character tracking, we're talking not just about spells learned and kill counts, but also about things like objectives, bosses, challenges, NPC dialog changing based on completed quests. These are all staples of RPGs that have been broken on PTS by ripping out the only way we have of tracking such things.[PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com5 -
spacefracking✭✭✭✭Just show a separate account wide summary page, with marks on achievements for the characters that earned it. E z. I am incredibly confused why this feature is being pushed in the current form. Absolute disaster13 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nightstrike wrote: »Literally, anything reassuring would be awesome right about now. Even, "Hey folks, as mentioned we are still working on a detailed Q&A for you who are invested in this direct discussion, as well as the greater ESO community. We're hoping to get that to you very early next week. The devil is in the details! Until then, here are a few things we want to let you know about the upcoming AWA changes that will hopefully set minds at ease from both sides of this debate.."
The silence makes them appear indecisive. And it's entirely possible that they still don't know what they are going to do about this situation. It's easy to imagine that there are varied opinions amongst the ZOS employees, and the fact that this is going to hurt sales makes it more imperative than some simple class/set/weapon balance issue.
I dunno, to me, the silence is just par for the course. ZOS doesn't really have a habit of communicating their thoughts. They shove things through without listening or responding to feedback with every major PTS change, so I don't see this being much different.
How often is there something other than silence? 3, maybe 4 times in the history of the entire game?
But they actually went out of their way with the AWA feedback to tell us they were reading it and "considering" it. They never use those kind of words on things they are 100% determined to push through. And they bought themselves time by stating that they were preparing a Q&A for us at some indefinite point in the future, rather than addressing our concerns outright.
So there's still hope that they will make the right decision and cancel, or at least postpone the implementation as it currently is.
The optimist in me hopes you're right, but the realist in me tells me you're not. So far all we had from ZOS were empty words. I suspect we only got some kind of response from them because 1. the subject of communication has been brought up time and time again, and 2. Kevin was probably hired to keep things under control while not actually giving us any info.
On the other hand, the fact that none of these quest bugs has been fixed in the weeks since the bomb was dropped on us may indicate that they are not actually going to implement AWA during this update. Are there still overlapping characters in Rimmen? Because that would be one of the first things they would address.
0 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭silvereyes wrote: »
Character tracking != only global counters. If you are going to argue that words matter, please at least get the definitions correct.silvereyes wrote: »
Fair enough, but I've only seen about 4 or 5 people here saying that they are against AwA on principle, so that's not really a huge concern.silvereyes wrote: »
It's really not about any one player's preferences. ESO is an RPG, and RPGs need character tracking. Not every player will use that feature - which is where the bicycle analogy breaks down - but my point is that it's the developer's responsibility to provide that feature.silvereyes wrote: »
Saying "the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking" makes character tracking sound expendable. It's not.silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Imagine ZOS achievements as a headlamp on a bicycle attached to special generator integrated into the axle of the wheel. Most bicycles (other games) just run their headlamps (achievements) off of batteries, and the wheels (character tracking) run independently.
ZOS is essentially trying to replace the wheel and generator assemblage with just a battery. The "only problem" is that now you have a bicycle missing a wheel. I feel like they missed something important.
I didn't miss it, it's a matter of what one personally thinks is important for them, to me personally it is the only problem, I can see it's not for a lot of people though that fact was never lost. To you it might feel like it will remove the wheel of the bike while to me it's just the bell.
My "bell" is the character tracking, nice to have but not essential for me and white ESO is an RPG it's also an MMO and a video game. My point is that people should be asking for a character tracking feature instead of being against the AwA.
Anyone asking for "optionality" or "separate tabs" isn't against AwA. Anyone asking for the feature to be "postponed" and better thought-out isn't against AwA.
In fact, I did a bit of data collection of the first 557 posts in this threads, after which I got too bored, but I'll share what I found. Of the 172 posters in those first 557 posts, 83 of them (48.25%) indicated a desire for some sort of compromise - be it an opt-out / opt-in, a separate tab, a new character tracker, or limiting the scope of which achievements go account-wide - and most of the rest didn't indicate a preference one way or another. That's an amazing amount of consensus for such a controversial topic.
In the end, it doesn't really matter if ZOS calls the character tracking "achievements" or not. It's the functionality people want, not the word. ZOS has full creative freedom with how they implement that functionality.
Believe it or not a word matters a lot in this context, if they were to rename it to something else the discussion would be very different, the entire reason why people want this is because of what achievements represent, if instead we had this:We would not be having this discussion, people who care about achievements as a metric of game completion don't care as much(some do) about character tracking.
When we say character tracking, we're talking not just about spells learned and kill counts, but also about things like objectives, bosses, challenges, NPC dialog changing based on completed quests. These are all staples of RPGs that have been broken on PTS by ripping out the only way we have of tracking such things.
I'm not familiar with any that have this level of tracking especially since we don't have "character has killed x bosses" but something that resembles achievements (as that's what they are). Please don't be angry, I'm just giving my opinion.1 -
silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I'm not angry. Sorry if I gave that impression. I use the word "argue" in the logical argument sense, not a tense exchange. Stupid English language.silvereyes wrote: »
Character tracking != only global counters. If you are going to argue that words matter, please at least get the definitions correct.silvereyes wrote: »
Fair enough, but I've only seen about 4 or 5 people here saying that they are against AwA on principle, so that's not really a huge concern.silvereyes wrote: »
It's really not about any one player's preferences. ESO is an RPG, and RPGs need character tracking. Not every player will use that feature - which is where the bicycle analogy breaks down - but my point is that it's the developer's responsibility to provide that feature.silvereyes wrote: »
Saying "the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking" makes character tracking sound expendable. It's not.silvereyes wrote: »
The game itself has tied achievements and character tracking together for 8 years. This isn't a matter of confusion. It's how the game is designed.I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
That's the bad thing which caused this thread!
Since there are Addons on PC that provide some kind of account-wide overview, I don't think it should be too hard to provide AwA while preserving character-based progress as well.
The current implementation might be 'unusual' compared to other games, but 'adjusting' it to other games is not a fix when data is wiped that represents large effords that players put in.
I get it, I do honestly and I've said so before , I'm in favor of there being separate character tracking but lots of people are confusing achievements with that.
If the developers want to redefine ESO achievements to be the account-wide, single-use badges that other games have, step number one needs to be developing new tracking features. Anything less constitutes removing an essential feature for a lot of people.
For an RPG, character tracking isn't expendable.
This:I think this change will be a good for the health of the game overall, while having players replay content might be good for an engagement metric it can also lead to a burn out.
Sorry, but I really just don't get it. Who or what forces anyone to replay any content if he/she doesn't want to?
And what part of this 'change' saves anyone from that 'forced' replay?
Seriously, I just don't see it. Since all achievements related to skill points seem to be excluded, what's the difference between starting a new char with and without AwA, except some titles which are (my personal opinion) completely meaningless for progressing in the game?
I really don't know so please explain to me what I am missing.
EDIT: I'd understand if we'd be talking about 'mount'-abilities, maybe motif-knowledge or skillpoints, but as far as I understood it, none of these things are affected by AwA.
Achievements represent the overall completion of the game, it might not make sense for people who don't care about completionism bit it does to me.
Same here, but that's exactly why I want to keep achievements tracked on character-level.
I'm not against AwA in general, but the current implementation kills the way players currently can track what parts of the game have been completed by each of their characters.
We're basically aiming for the same goal ('completition overlook'), just on another level of detail. These don't have to exclude each other, but in the current implementation they do, and in my opinion ZOS should develop a solution that satifies both groups of players instead of wiping the detail-data in which one of the groups has invested energy and time over years to satisfy the other group.
I feel like this is mostly due to a poor implementation when the game was launched, achievements should track player progress while character progress should be tracked with a journal/log, instead we have this weird achievement system. When I think about it it feels more like they're fixing it and bringing it in line with other games, the only problem is that it's getting rid of the character tracking.
Imagine ZOS achievements as a headlamp on a bicycle attached to special generator integrated into the axle of the wheel. Most bicycles (other games) just run their headlamps (achievements) off of batteries, and the wheels (character tracking) run independently.
ZOS is essentially trying to replace the wheel and generator assemblage with just a battery. The "only problem" is that now you have a bicycle missing a wheel. I feel like they missed something important.
I didn't miss it, it's a matter of what one personally thinks is important for them, to me personally it is the only problem, I can see it's not for a lot of people though that fact was never lost. To you it might feel like it will remove the wheel of the bike while to me it's just the bell.
My "bell" is the character tracking, nice to have but not essential for me and white ESO is an RPG it's also an MMO and a video game. My point is that people should be asking for a character tracking feature instead of being against the AwA.
Anyone asking for "optionality" or "separate tabs" isn't against AwA. Anyone asking for the feature to be "postponed" and better thought-out isn't against AwA.
In fact, I did a bit of data collection of the first 557 posts in this threads, after which I got too bored, but I'll share what I found. Of the 172 posters in those first 557 posts, 83 of them (48.25%) indicated a desire for some sort of compromise - be it an opt-out / opt-in, a separate tab, a new character tracker, or limiting the scope of which achievements go account-wide - and most of the rest didn't indicate a preference one way or another. That's an amazing amount of consensus for such a controversial topic.
In the end, it doesn't really matter if ZOS calls the character tracking "achievements" or not. It's the functionality people want, not the word. ZOS has full creative freedom with how they implement that functionality.
Believe it or not a word matters a lot in this context, if they were to rename it to something else the discussion would be very different, the entire reason why people want this is because of what achievements represent, if instead we had this:We would not be having this discussion, people who care about achievements as a metric of game completion don't care as much(some do) about character tracking.
When we say character tracking, we're talking not just about spells learned and kill counts, but also about things like objectives, bosses, challenges, NPC dialog changing based on completed quests. These are all staples of RPGs that have been broken on PTS by ripping out the only way we have of tracking such things.
I'm not familiar with any that have this level of tracking especially since we don't have "character has killed x bosses" but something that resembles achievements (as that's what they are). Please don't be angry, I'm just giving my opinion.
All the best. [PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com0