why i'm holding off on renewing my ESO+ subscription (nRND)

jaws343 · December 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The DPS who queue as tanks to skip the queue are the only ones who keep trying to call out players who are just bad at their chosen role to deflect the conversation away from their horrid behavior.

That is absolutely untrue, and this disparaging of others just to obscure that the DPS isn't building for the role they selected is another reason that I don't support a definition that is inherently unequal in it's treatment of people who are not built to play the role they selected.

It's really simple

Fake = someone who is not built to perform the role they have chosen
Bad - someone who is built for the role they have chosen, they are just bad at it.

But there is miles of difference between being bad at the game: i.e.: poor skill choice, poor gear set up, poor dps, even poor tanking ability and healing awareness, and intentionally queuing for a role you don't intend to perform in any capacity. To lump both groups into eachother is just an attempt to deflect against the criticism of the group who chose to intentionally not perform the correct role they chose.

Calling a DPS bad is still holding them accountable for not being good enough for the role they chose, without lumping them in with players who are essentially lying to get into a dungeon. I have sympathy for players who just need to get better. I would be fine if players who lie about their role in the queue were just removed from the game. No sympathy for them, they are what is mostly wrong with the group finder.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

But there is miles of difference between being bad at the game: i.e.: poor skill choice, poor gear set up, poor dps, even poor tanking ability and healing awareness, and intentionally queuing for a role you don't intend to perform in any capacity. To lump both groups into eachother is just an attempt to deflect against the criticism of the group who chose to intentionally not perform the correct role they chose.

Yes. Their absolutely is a difference between someone who does it intentionally and someone else who does it by mistake. You'll get no argument from me there.

But fake dps also cause issues with the game, particularly in vet content. The developers have actually been going through a lot of trouble to lower the floor of this game so that it's more accessible to people, because of the very real and tangible problems that are caused in vet content from people very ill-prepared for it, mostly the DPS.

People who are using a term don't all share the same opinion, thought process, or any other characteristic. What determines what their intent behind using the term is how they use the term.

A real tank explaining that he has had tremendous issues being able to complete vet dungeons and making a suggestion that would say put a dps threshold on vet content isn't trying to deflect criticism from their own bad behavior. They are attempting to discuss a real problem that they are having that is directly the result of people not building to fulfill their role, which is not different in intent than the people who discuss fake tanks and fake healers. And claiming that anyone who uses the term must be deflecting criticism is itself a deflection of criticism away from people who choose to enter vet content they are not built to do, IMO.

jaws343 · December 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But there is miles of difference between being bad at the game: i.e.: poor skill choice, poor gear set up, poor dps, even poor tanking ability and healing awareness, and intentionally queuing for a role you don't intend to perform in any capacity. To lump both groups into eachother is just an attempt to deflect against the criticism of the group who chose to intentionally not perform the correct role they chose.

Yes. Their absolutely is a difference between someone who does it intentionally and someone else who does it by mistake. You'll get no argument from me there.

But fake dps also cause issues with the game, particularly in vet content. The developers have actually been going through a lot of trouble to lower the floor of this game so that it's more accessible to people, because of the very real and tangible problems that are caused in vet content from people very ill-prepared for it, mostly the DPS.

People who are using a term don't all share the same opinion, thought process, or any other characteristic. What determines what their intent behind using the term is how they use the term.

A real tank explaining that he has had tremendous issues being able to complete vet dungeons and making a suggestion that would say put a dps threshold on vet content isn't trying to deflect criticism from their own bad behavior. They are attempting to discuss a real problem that they are having that is directly the result of people not building to fulfill their role, which is not different in intent than the people who discuss fake tanks and fake healers. And claiming that anyone who uses the term must be deflecting criticism is itself a deflection of criticism away from people who choose to enter vet content they are not built to do, IMO.

You are right, Bad DPS and even Bad tanks and Bad healers are not good for smooth runs of dungeons.

But Fake tanks are far worse, because they aren't even making an effort to perform the role they chose, and in fact, are doing the exact opposite of trying to do the role they chose.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But there is miles of difference between being bad at the game: i.e.: poor skill choice, poor gear set up, poor dps, even poor tanking ability and healing awareness, and intentionally queuing for a role you don't intend to perform in any capacity. To lump both groups into eachother is just an attempt to deflect against the criticism of the group who chose to intentionally not perform the correct role they chose.

Yes. Their absolutely is a difference between someone who does it intentionally and someone else who does it by mistake. You'll get no argument from me there.

But fake dps also cause issues with the game, particularly in vet content. The developers have actually been going through a lot of trouble to lower the floor of this game so that it's more accessible to people, because of the very real and tangible problems that are caused in vet content from people very ill-prepared for it, mostly the DPS.

People who are using a term don't all share the same opinion, thought process, or any other characteristic. What determines what their intent behind using the term is how they use the term.

A real tank explaining that he has had tremendous issues being able to complete vet dungeons and making a suggestion that would say put a dps threshold on vet content isn't trying to deflect criticism from their own bad behavior. They are attempting to discuss a real problem that they are having that is directly the result of people not building to fulfill their role, which is not different in intent than the people who discuss fake tanks and fake healers. And claiming that anyone who uses the term must be deflecting criticism is itself a deflection of criticism away from people who choose to enter vet content they are not built to do, IMO.

You are right, Bad DPS and even Bad tanks and Bad healers are not good for smooth runs of dungeons.

But Fake tanks are far worse, because they aren't even making an effort to perform the role they chose, and in fact, are doing the exact opposite of trying to do the role they chose.

To me, a bad DPS/healer/tank are people who are built for their roles, they just suck at it. There are people in meta gear pulling 15k dps trying their hardest to push their damage, and then there are people who purposefully decide that they don't want to build for damage but survival "because a dead dps doesn't do damage," and then as a result they end up doing poor damage.

One person chose to try to maximize their damage and focused on it, but they didn't do a great job. The other isn't trying to focus on damage but instead focusing on survival and healing, which isn't their role.

And I don't think there is anything wrong with acknowledging the difference in building for your role and not building for your role, regardless of their intent.

Beyond that I have never seen the term "fake dps" be interpreted as someone who like slots a taunt and starts aggroing mobs, because that basically never happens. I always get "stop calling bad dps fakes" or "yeah, those fake dps with their garbage dps are bad for the game," which tells me that both groups are interpreting the phrase as someone with extremely bad dps, and they aren't interpreting the phrase the same way they interpret fake tank.

Olauron · December 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Beyond that I have never seen the term "fake dps" be interpreted as someone who like slots a taunt and starts aggroing mobs, because that basically never happens. I always get "stop calling bad dps fakes" or "yeah, those fake dps with their garbage dps are bad for the game," which tells me that both groups are interpreting the phrase as someone with extremely bad dps, and they aren't interpreting the phrase the same way they interpret fake tank.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]
As for fake dps, it is wrong that there is no such thing. There is. Whether they are common in dungeons or not is another question. It mostly depends on the reasons to be fake (if it is not profitable to be fake dps and profitable to be fake tank, you will see more fake tanks than fake dps).

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Elsonso · December 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Fake = someone who is not built to perform the role they have chosen
Bad - someone who is built for the role they have chosen, they are just bad at it.

Fake: "someone who does not intend to do the role they have chosen, and instead, does something else"
Bad: "someone who intends to do the role they have chosen, attempts to do that role, but is not very good at it"

I am less concerned about builds than I am about intentions and attempt.

We seem to get rather judgemental in here about builds, and I am not impressed by that. This is why the comment I made a page or two back about what I think a tank is says nothing about how they build their character. I really don't care what they slot, if they can control the boss. If they can't control the boss, then we can see if there is room for improvement, if they are willing.

Amottica · December 2021

Raideen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Mention them because the ideas presented in the forums so far will not rectify anything worthwhile.

I disagree completely and other MMORPG's have proven this point for at least over a decade.

Amottica wrote: »

Also, I edited the post after you set the quote. The real issue is the disparity of unskilled players in the game leading to a high likelihood of getting a very bad group if one uses the queue to find a random group.

That is not a fault of the player, that is a fault of the games design. Neither combat nor building armor sets in ESO is remotely intuitive. In fact, they are extremely complex and confusing to players, new and veteran players alike. I know people who have played this game since 2014, they have the monkey to prove it who can not figure out how to build an armor set.
Light attack weaving is not only NOT intuitive, its uncomfortable for many folks and many folks don't do it.

As long as folks blame it on the players and not the core of the design. This will be an issue.

Amottica wrote: »

This is a fact supported by a great many threads complaining about poorly skilled players in the GF. It has also led to tanks being tired of so many bad groups that no longer queue solo.

I would argue that this has less to do with "poorly skilled" players, and a system that is not even remotely intuitive. As evidence of the huge plethora of videos on you tube showing people how to build and rotate. Except, that not everyone watches you tube.

!. I expect some people like many of the ideas presented but that does not mean they are workable. The ones I have seen since I joined the game Zenimax seems to have added some features to the game based on good suggestions or designs. The recent armory (or whatever they are calling it) is a good example of Zenimax acting on a good suggestion.

With this, you said in a recent post you were a designer (assuming a game designer) and had ideas. I asked for the idea. I am also curious what MMOs you were a designer for.

2. I will admit the ESO has more moving parts compared to other MMORPGs with very simple designs like WoW and FF14. However, since a great many players have learned to play the game and there are many sites with build ideas it does seem that the player does have a great amount of personal responsibility to learn what to do. This is a fact in any MMORPG that the player will need to learn aspects of the game from what gear to equip and rotations that work well. Those that choose to end up doing ok or do great.

3. Considering tanking is fairly straightforward. Much more than damage dealing, and I say this as one who has recently started tanking, it is very intuitive and has a very simple design at the foundation. It cannot be any more straightforward than taunting. I have also heard from tanks in my guild (and occasionally seen posted in a thread) that they do not use the GF because of they got tired of the bad groups that it is clear what the reason is. I expect they rarely bother posting in a thread like this because they do not care about the lack of tanks queuing via the GF since the GF is not their problem anymore.

Also, as a player who started this game earlier this year and saw at a low CP that I was doing more damage as a healer (that was still healing and putting out orbs) than max-level CP players in CP 1.0. When I saw that several times before joining my guild and then hears the tanks speak seems rather clear why the GF lacks tanks.

I do look forward to seeing the ideas you will present as a designer. It would also be interesting to see your related background as it will add context.

Outside of that, I respect your opinion and your right to present it which is all we are doing here. Please understand I will not continue arguing the same opinions back and forth as I would not want the same ideas going back and forth to distract from the thread.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Beyond that I have never seen the term "fake dps" be interpreted as someone who like slots a taunt and starts aggroing mobs, because that basically never happens. I always get "stop calling bad dps fakes" or "yeah, those fake dps with their garbage dps are bad for the game," which tells me that both groups are interpreting the phrase as someone with extremely bad dps, and they aren't interpreting the phrase the same way they interpret fake tank.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]
As for fake dps, it is wrong that there is no such thing. There is. Whether they are common in dungeons or not is another question. It mostly depends on the reasons to be fake (if it is not profitable to be fake dps and profitable to be fake tank, you will see more fake tanks than fake dps).

If you don't meet the minimum requirements to be considered fulfilling the role, then you're not real role. And if you're not real, then you're fake.

A bad player does meet the minimum requirements of fulfilling the role, they are just bad at it.

[snip]

Elsonso wrote: »

I am less concerned about builds than I am about intentions and attempt.

Choosing to prioritize survivability over damage is an intentional choice.

Many, many people with a lack of damage choose not to do good damage because that's just not how they want to play. That's fine. But if you choose not to focus on damage then you're not a dps.

DPS focus their builds on doing damage. If you don't, you're not a real dps.

Tanks focus their builds on survivability and controlling enemy units, if you don't, you're not a real tank.

Healers focus their builds on healing and enhancing the fighting capabilities of allies, if you don't, you're not a real healer.

[snip]
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Amottica · December 2021

@spartaxoxo

I would suggest the role definitions are not so clear.

A tank needs to be able to taunt and actually use the taunt as the most core responsibility for that role. Survivability would be different for different players and the challenge of the content. For some, they may need 45k health for the same fight another tank can do without issue but have less than 30k. Player skill and experience play a role in this. I have seen a DPS tank just fine because they would dodge role the heavy attacks that would have one-shot them otherwise.

I think this is why a solution to the occasional fake tank is not easy. If I can tank it with a build I use for DPS or even healing, taunt the bosses and strong, and not die, then I am a tank.

I think this game was designed and intended so roles are blurred, Granted, I was not here at the start but I recall a developer video that somewhat said that. It makes sense considering the design for character builds we have and means such lines tend to wander a bit.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

@Amottica

While I grant you there is significant overlap, especially in normal mode, it doesn't change that the focus of people's builds are more or less tailored to their roles.

And it's these bare minimum core building principles that tend to carry over to a wide variety of approaches. And it's these principles that have allowed us to understand the trinity of roles even across different titles within the industry.

Olauron · December 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If you don't meet the minimum requirements to be considered fulfilling the role, then you're not real role. And if you're not real, then you're fake.

This is wrong.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A bad player does meet the minimum requirements of fulfilling the role, they are just bad at it.

And this is wrong too.

[snip]

spartaxoxo wrote: »

DPS focus their builds on doing damage. If you don't, you're not a real dps.

Tanks focus their builds on survivability and controlling enemy units, if you don't, you're not a real tank.

Healers focus their builds on healing and enhancing the fighting capabilities of allies, if you don't, you're not a real healer.

This has nothing to do with build. The primary (focus) activity is the only thing that matters.
Damage dealers focus their activity on doing damage.
Tanks focus their activity on survivability and controlling the boss (and other units).
Healers focus their activity on healing.

I have a character with a healer build. He doesn't know any class or weapon damage dealing skills. This character has zero healing skills in his slots. He is not a healer by any means.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

maximusrex45 · December 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Because a lot of people doing vet dungeons need that inbetween step to learn how to play the game. Overland doesn't do a great job of teaching people how to do vet dlc dungeons. But going from Overland > normal dlc dungeons > vet dlc dungeons is a pretty decent learning curve. Also some people just find vet too hard but normal too easy, and want that inbetween content. And this content is right up their alley.

But it doesn't work this way at all, because they are grouped into two groups despite massively different levels of difficulty. I say this as someone who was working with a group of friends on working our way up while trying to get rewards to optimize our gear. Randoms should be 3-4 tiers with increasing rewards based on the difficulty and time required to do the tier. Taking a random as a new player and trouncing some then getting annihilated in the next isn't a fun or worthwhile experience, and all it teaches is the system doesn't give two craps about teaching you how to be better.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

Olauron wrote: »

This is wrong

[snip]

[snip]

They have to be focused on dealing massive damage. That has to be the the focus of their character. Your character's build is not focused on damage if 3/4 of your bar has nothing to do with damage and your stats and gear are focused on survival. That is not a focus on damage.

You are setting bar so low as to make it impossible to not fulfill except by an afk'er. [snip]

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

spartaxoxo · December 2021

maximusrex45 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Because a lot of people doing vet dungeons need that inbetween step to learn how to play the game. Overland doesn't do a great job of teaching people how to do vet dlc dungeons. But going from Overland > normal dlc dungeons > vet dlc dungeons is a pretty decent learning curve. Also some people just find vet too hard but normal too easy, and want that inbetween content. And this content is right up their alley.

But it doesn't work this way at all, because they are grouped into two groups despite massively different levels of difficulty. I say this as someone who was working with a group of friends on working our way up while trying to get rewards to optimize our gear. Randoms should be 3-4 tiers with increasing rewards based on the difficulty and time required to do the tier. Taking a random as a new player and trouncing some then getting annihilated in the next isn't a fun or worthwhile experience, and all it teaches is the system doesn't give two craps about teaching you how to be better.

What the normal teaches is how to do many of the mechanics of that dungeon, not how to play the game.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is wrong

No. It is not. It's how human beings define things. It's how we define titles, words, etc.

We figure out what qualifies. And something that doesn't qualify is not that thing.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

In this game your character's capacity to deal massive damage comes from your build. And how much damage you personally are able to make it generate comes from what is happening in that moment and your individual level of skill.

A person who is not building their character to be capable of massive damage is not a dps.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Olauron · December 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

This is wrong

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

In this game your character's capacity to deal massive damage comes from your build. And how much damage you personally are able to make it generate comes from what is happening in that moment and your individual level of skill.

A character that is not building to be capable of massive damage is not a dps.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A person who is not building their character to be capable of massive damage is not a dps.

Build has nothing to do with it at all. A new player going into a dungeon doesn't know about builds. A new player doesn't even know that such thing as build exists. That doesn't mean that he is fake. If he enters a dungeon and starts attacking enemies, he is damage dealer. If he enters a dungeon and starts healing allies, he is a healer. If he enters a dungeon and starts to taunt enemies, he is a tank. If this activity is the same as what is set in his role, he is not fake, even if there is no build there.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

spartaxoxo · December 2021

Olauron wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

They didn't set a number because what is massive and how you are capable varies from game to game.

In this game your capacity comes from your build.

If the focus of your build is doing a lot of damage, you are a dps. If you are dealing damage in the game you might be dps'ing but your role is not dps. As a dps character is one specifically capable of dealing lots of damage. It has to be the focus of the build.

So someone in dps gear with a bunch of damage skills on their bar is a dps, regardless if they are skilled at making the most of that build or not.

Someone in healer gear who's focus is on self-survival and little or no dps skills on their bar is not a dps, even if they are dealing damage in that moment.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Olauron · December 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

They didn't set a number because what is massive and how you are capable varies from game to game.

In this game your capacity comes from your build.

If the focus of your build is doing a lot of damage, you are a dps. If you are dealing damage in the game you might be dps'ing but your role is not dps. As a dps character is one specifically capable of dealing lots of damage. It has to be the focus of the build.

So someone in dps gear with a bunch of damage skills on their bar is a dps, regardless if they are skilled at making the most of that build or not.

Someone in healer gear who's focus is on self-survival and little or no dps skills on their bar is not a dps, even if they are dealing damage in that moment.

[snip]

In essence I can just say that a tank is a real tank only when he can control 100+ enemies and take 1M damage without dying, and a healer is a real healer when he can outheal 50k damage per second. The numbers are from the same source as the numbers for "massive damage" for damage dealer. That will make tanks, healers and damage dealers on the same ground (the same ground of absurdity).

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Fermian · December 2021

Wouldnt mind a split based on difficulty. Maybe like 4 difficulty levels.

Raideen · December 2021

Elsonso wrote: »

Today? Yes. Last week, people were farming gold and purple boxes and event tickets. The prize itself is not the issue. Any reward that can be farmed will be the issue. If people can do it more than once per day, some people will do that. If people can just do it once per day, then some people will just do that.

The issue is exasperated with Transmute Crystals. Those are part of the rewards 365 days a year. The undaunted event is not. No event is.

Eliminating transmute crystals from the daily dungeon rewards will reduce fake tanking through the virtue of those players not "needing" to queue for fast runs for their trasnmute crystals.

Elsonso wrote: »

While I want Transmute Thingies to be available through other PVE activities besides dungeons, I know that people will still farm dungeons for whatever reward the dungeon has to offer. If not Transmute, then sticker book, or XP, or gold, or achievements, or just because they are bored over lunch and like the excitement of the dungeon.

Yes, I already stated this. Which is why their needs to be a gear/skill/roll check for tanks and healers. If a role check is implemented, then rewards can stay, althoguh transmute crystals from dungeons still makes no sense. They however make all the sense in the world if obtained through crafting dailies.

Elsonso wrote: »

And...

Raideen wrote: »

Remove the daily rewards, and you remove most of the fake tanking and speed runners.

My thinking is that this would have the opposite effect and get worse.

The reason is that removing rewards would remove incentive, and removing incentive attracts fewer players, and that will increase queue times. In the end, the demand for fake roles increases in order to bring the queue times down for those willing to do it. Faced with generally longer queue times, speed runs become more necessary in order to bring the total time (queue+dungeon) down into the acceptable range.

I still wait 45 minutes plus for dungeon runs as a solo DPS in a queue. This has been the case since day one of me playing the game. Nothing ZOS has done has changed this issue. In fact, I waited 3 consecutive 45 minute stretches DURING the event, nothing ever popped.

World of Warcraft has an amazing system that ZOS would behoove zos to copy. Rewards are offered dynamically in the queue system, not daily, but on every run that entice players to queue for the roles that have increased rewards. Of course WOW also does a role and a gear check. ZOS should do the same. Only allow players who meet an armor threshold, taunt abilities and health threshhold to queue as a tank. Same as healer. If there are a ton of DPS in queue and a shortage of tanks, there are additional rewards offered for the tank player. Same as healers. Due to the amount of DPS queuing any given hour, I only saw rewards for DPS come up one time but that is ok.

Elsonso wrote: »

I would completely remove roles for normal dungeon queues.
[/queue] That will not work in the case of DLC dungeons and only invites MORE speed runners and "fake tanks"....not a good idea, not even remotely a good idea.

Elsonso wrote: »

I do not believe that there is anything that can be done to prevent speed running. I am sure that there are some people who do Fungal Grotto I, with the shortcut, that think that dungeon is too long. [/quote[
I disagree, I mean World of Warcraft has a program implemented that works wonders.

The issue is not that it can't be done, it seems like the issue is an unwillingness to make it happen.

Elsonso wrote: »

Specific to FG1, ZOS should decide how they want that dungeon to be run. Either eliminate the short cut, or put a ramp up out of the water to the Dreugh King's arena area. If they like the short cut, possibly allow a short cut before the first mini-boss to expedite arrival at the Dreugh King.

The shortcut benefits speed runners, not the low levels queuing to run their first dungeon and do their quest. It would make zero sense to embolden speed runners. The shortcut should be patched, it should have been patched years ago.

Elsonso wrote: »

I would also make it so that Transmute Thingies were common daily rewards for other PVE activities besides dungeons, trials, and arenas.

Crafting. They should come from crafting dailies.

Raideen · December 2021

Amottica wrote: »

!. I expect some people like many of the ideas presented but that does not mean they are workable. The ones I have seen since I joined the game Zenimax seems to have added some features to the game based on good suggestions or designs. The recent armory (or whatever they are calling it) is a good example of Zenimax acting on a good suggestion.

With this, you said in a recent post you were a designer (assuming a game designer) and had ideas. I asked for the idea. I am also curious what MMOs you were a designer for.

Design at its core is problem solving, regardless of the discipline.

The Design Management Institute says: "Design is a method of problem solving. Whether it is an architectural blueprint, a brochure, the signage system at an airport, a chair, or a better way to streamline production on the factory floor – design helps solve a problem."

"One could describe Design as a plan for arranging elements to accomplish a particular purpose." - Charles Eames

One does not need to be a game designer to understand game design. They do have to have a design discipline and think a certain way. Have an approach that is unbiased in its goal. would heavily argue also need to understand the game type deeply by playing it and if designing on a specific project the designer should 100% play that project to understand the player base at its core.

Amottica wrote: »

2. I will admit the ESO has more moving parts compared to other MMORPGs with very simple designs like WoW and FF14. However, since a great many players have learned to play the game and there are many sites with build ideas it does seem that the player does have a great amount of personal responsibility to learn what to do. This is a fact in any MMORPG that the player will need to learn aspects of the game from what gear to equip and rotations that work well. Those that choose to end up doing ok or do great.

I would not say ESO has more "moving parts" than WoW or FF14, I would argue the opposite. I have personally played through Wow in extreme depth for 17 years now. The "simple" art does not make for a simple game.

Here is a quote from Elon Musk. “Any product that needs a manual to work is broken.” - Elon Musk

I never had to have a "manual" to play wow. I could perform top DPS in a raid simply by knowing my class and using armor sets that catered to my classes strength and this was not hard to accomplish. There is always the basic questions from players sure like "What is better for a hunter, haste or mastery" but the depth of ESO's class builds and armor builds is so extreme, you DO need a manual. None of it is intuitive. The Necromancer is the closest they have come to building a class where you can use the classes toolkit ALMOST exclusively, and do well in vet content, but even it falls short.

If a player has to tab out, watch a video, read a manual on how to build their class, well I am sorry...but that is the very definition of bad design and sadly ESO encapsulates much of this. I am not suggesting the devs are dumb, or lazy, in fact I think quite the opposite. I think they are extremely hard working and trying to find solutions that pacify a number of requirements, even requirements that should have no place in content design. Such as building the game to funnel the player to the crown store. I imagine the devs are in a very tight spot and I would also imagine that internally they have many issues with this approach. But at the end of the day, there is always someone higher up calling the shots, even at the detriment to the player or game.

Amottica wrote: »

4. Considering tanking is fairly straightforward. Much more than damage dealing, and I say this as one who has recently started tanking, it is very intuitive and has a very simple design at the foundation. It cannot be any more straightforward than taunting. I have also heard from tanks in my guild (and occasionally seen posted in a thread) that they do not use the GF because of they got tired of the bad groups that it is clear what the reason is. I expect they rarely bother posting in a thread like this because they do not care about the lack of tanks queuing via the GF since the GF is not their problem anymore.

Tanking is much more in depth than that. I would argue its the hardest job, as evidence of how few players roll tanks. Tanking is not just about holding aggro, its about responsibility. Its the tanks job to keep the group alive. It's the tanks job to understand the encounters to the nth degree. Content is generally more forgiving to DPS in regards to the encounter. This is not the case with tanking. A bad tank will end in a dissolved party. A bad DPS will mean a longer run.

Amottica wrote: »

Also, as a player who started this game earlier this year and saw at a low CP that I was doing more damage as a healer (that was still healing and putting out orbs) than max-level CP players in CP 1.
1. When I saw that several times before joining my guild and then hears the tanks speak seems rather clear why the GF lacks tanks.

I have done the same. I have pulled 65% of the DPS as a healer in some groups. But this is not due to players being bad, quite often its due to a lack of understanding how the game works, which is not even remotely intuitive.
Heck, just last week. I wanted to build my mag blade. I did all the usual stuff, back bar infused spell power, a dot, AOE, spammable, high crit, all passives, penetration, etc. And I could not pull more than 14k on the clockwork target dummy.
Yet, I can get on my farming toon, yes, straight up speed running farming toon and do more DPS by spamming one ability.

Its hard to decipher what makes a class work and what does not for a lot of people. That is not a fault of the people, that is a fault of the design.

Amottica wrote: »

I do look forward to seeing the ideas you will present as a designer. It would also be interesting to see your related background as it will add context.

I am not allowed to divulge this information.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

Olauron wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

Your build is part of that focus. Literally. That's why they have damage skills as the primary focus on the dps build in the build helper tool.

If the focus of your build is not dealing damage, you're not a dps.

[snip]

If a dps skill bar don't matter than neither does tank or healer. A tank with no taunt is still a tank because they'll have aggro sometimes. A healer who only heals themselves is just a bad healer not a fake healer. They healed a nonzero amount of damage.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Raideen · December 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

[snip] DPS first and foremost is a role and describes the roll of that player within the "trinity" which also gives non-verbal communication to the other party members on the role of that player. Same as tank, same as healer.

The "fake" DPS in this game is one of two things. A tank build as a tank doing DPS as their primary role. A healer build as a healer doing DPS as their primary role. Those would be "fake DPS", outside of that there is no "fake DPS".

There is however "Bad DPS", but this has more to do with the design of the game not being even remotely intuitive in how to DPS or how to build for DPS and less to do with individual player skill. Weaving is also an issue becasue its not intuitive (nor physically comfortable) for a good portion of the player base but is worth a good chunk of the overall damage done by a player.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Olauron · December 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

Your build is part of that focus. Literally. That's why they have damage skills as the primary focus on the dps build in the build helper tool.

If the focus of your build is not dealing damage, you're not a dps.

[snip].

If a dps skill bar don't matter than neither does tank or healer. A tank with no taunt is still a tank because they'll have aggro sometimes. A healer who only heals themselves is just a bad healer not a fake healer. They healed a nonzero amount of damage.

[snip]

Focusing has nothing to do with build. I can have healer build and don't use healing skills at all. That doesn't make me a healer. Only skills used show the focus of the role.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

heartburnkid · December 2021

Haven’t subbed on both accounts(wifes account or my own) due to this as well. Don’t miss it either, much more enjoyable to log in, do a quick daily, then play something else.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

[snip]

Olauron wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

Raideen wrote: »

But once the single target boss encounter starts, the entire thing reverses and the AFF lock will pull the hardest DPS in the dungeon, all things being equal.

[snip]

It's only on ESO that I have ever seen people say that the DPS class doesn't need to have a build focused on damage. Because that's blatantly absurd and not even supported by the game's build adviser.

It's only being done to positively discriminate in favor of dps by giving them unequal responsibility to their groups.

It's fake tanking if you don't have a taunt, regardless if you do get aggro on things sometimes. Because a tank is being defined by the skills they choose.

It's fake healing if you don't have any skills slotted, even if you have gear that heals yourself, because healing 1 party member isn't good enough. You are being defined by the skills you choose.

But a dps, no they have no responsibilities to the group. They can do whatever they want. They don't need to have a bunch of damage skills on theor bar to do damage. They can pack a ton of heals, maybe some buffs, and only use light attacks. And despite having zero damage skills still be considered a dps because they did a nonzero amount of damage. 🙄

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

ZOS_Icy · December 2021

Hi there,

After removing some unnecessary baiting in addition to some back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for understanding.

AzuraFan · December 2021

I'd like to see the choice when doing random dungeons.

Until a few weeks ago, I'd never done a random normal or a DLC dungeon. I'd soloed base game dungeons or gone through with guildies, but I'd never done a random normal.

When I agreed to do one, I was thinking it would take around 10-15 minutes, which was great, because I wanted to log off in 15 minutes.

We ended up in Frostvault. It took around 45 minutes. I stayed because I don't bail on people, but I wasn't happy about it.

That's when I decided I'll never do a random normal again. I want to know how much time something will take before I agree to do it.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

AzuraFan wrote: »

I'd like to see the choice when doing random dungeons.

Until a few weeks ago, I'd never done a random normal or a DLC dungeon. I'd soloed base game dungeons or gone through with guildies, but I'd never done a random normal.

When I agreed to do one, I was thinking it would take around 10-15 minutes, which was great, because I wanted to log off in 15 minutes.

We ended up in Frostvault. It took around 45 minutes. I stayed because I don't bail on people, but I wasn't happy about it.

That's when I decided I'll never do a random normal again. I want to know how much time something will take before I agree to do it.

At this point I just assume it's gonna be a long time and won't do one unless I have at least an hour. Because the number of DLC dungeons is pretty close to the number of base game dungeons at this point, and some of the base game ones can also be long like COA2. I've never actually been in a random normal for an hour before, that would definitely be a terrible run, but it just makes stuff like Fungal Grotto a jackpot rather than the normal, and stuff like Frostvault feels normal.

Bobby_V_Rockit · December 2021

Stanx wrote: »

Those rewards are for helping with people with a dungeon they need and you are available to do, rather than just for doing a dungeon you feel like doing. People pay real money for those dungeons and their need to be able to do them outweights your desire to get easy rewards

They do have help, from other players who also paid real money for said dungeons. ESO+ members for the craft bag are not always in the same mindset as DLC thrill seekers.