Harder Main Story Bosses

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

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Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

@spartaxoxo

The purpose of the proposal being to get story related achievements and cosmetics that new players cannot get?

No it is to make it hard. If your focus is in on new players ability to beat it then it's not hard.

Where did I state anywhere that new players could beat the challenge banner? Just because the rewards would go to everyone doesn't mean the boss kill would be. A challenge banner makes an existing fight harder and does not alter the existing reward structure.

Literally the only difference between the two proposals is rewards and that it wouldn't be repeatable.

That's not how the rest of the game operates. Challenge banners offer better reward. It is not consistent and is a waste of assets.
My idea would add re-playability and better challenge. This way players who completed old stories could go back and experience epic boss fight from story arcs they wished had them (like Morrowind, Summerset, and Elsweyr)

As I said, the only reason to oppose all of your proposed ideas for optional difficulty is selfishness, plain and simple. The only arguments I've seen against your proposal have been from a stand point of "we want what we want, and you can't have what you want because I don't want it or don't want to work for it". Making it so that an entire portion of the player base is invalidated for no reason. What a shame.

Then you haven't actually thought about the system being changed or people's suggestions.

I think it's far more selfish to ask for something to be taken from one group when you already have a lot of it. Like Kylie Jenner asking poor people for donations to help her become a billionaire when she's already a multi-millionaire

Linaleah · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

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Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

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Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing, and maybe even gain something out of it, should be get dungeon solo modes to be able to play through the story without being rushed by a group.

and in wow, story unfolds partly in dungeons and raids. tells me that you haven't played wow for at least 2 expansions if you think that story is confined to overland only. (and to clarify, I don't mean dungeon specific story, I mean single player story that starts solo and culminates in having to do one or several dungeons or raids. in most recent expansion both war campaigns for horde AND alliance involve NOT optional dungeons/raids if you want to complete them. Nazjatar campaign requires going into the raid. so does Black empire campaign. multiple alliance race unlocks require group dungeons. so.... there is that. )

and to go back to SWTOR - many of those story difficulties are solo. all are optional. all allow you to repeat story chapters. harder modes come with extra rewards. there is NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. its a nice incentive, and if it stops calls for making existing overland harder for EVERYONE? all the better.

Iccotak · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

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Iccotak wrote: »

Literally what several of us have been saying to you.

Unlike you, I have taken into account endgame players that find the boss fight anti-climatic which is why I proposed something like a challenge banner.

Which we have explained is a band aid

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You insisted that the existence of people who would be put off by this idea was absurd. And when one such player chimed in, you told them to get out of the thread because their opinion was somehow irrelevant.

I pointed out that the lack of obtainable cosmetic rewards currently in-game is an issue with the game as it is right now. Not the proposal specifically. That is why I said it is best to discuss that in another thread on ways how ZOS could add more throughout the game and not feel they are all stuck behind Veteran achievements

spartaxoxo wrote: »

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Iccotak wrote: »

Literally what several of us have been saying to you.

So, no. Not the same.

You have literally been dismissing peoples desire for an actual challenge, which again a challenge banner would not solve

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I vehemently oppose a "lair" or anything that gives extra rewards to endgame players for story content. We have enough of that in this game. I would support an actually optional difficulty spike be it through boss scaling or a hard mode that kept in the place the existing reward structure.

So again your issue is the same as the one @Olauron pointed out.
Not the OP but a lack of existing obtainable cosmetics in-game and how the already existing reward structure for Veteran operates in-game.
Your challenge banner idea actually goes outside the reward structure.
You see in a dungeon when you put up a challenge banner your rewarded not only from the dungeon but also undaunted (which is rare purple gear)

Mine is much the same as the rest of the game

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

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Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

The only arguments I've seen against for your proposal have been from a stand point of "we want what we want".

Corrected.

Again, you make a lot of assumptions. You have yet to present a single valid reason against it.

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

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SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

Iccotak · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

@spartaxoxo

The purpose of the proposal being to get story related achievements and cosmetics that new players cannot get?

No it is to make it hard. If your focus is in on new players ability to beat it then it's not hard.

Where did I state anywhere that new players could beat the challenge banner? Just because the rewards would go to everyone doesn't mean the boss kill would be. A challenge banner makes an existing fight harder and does not alter the existing reward structure.

Literally the only difference between the two proposals is rewards and that it wouldn't be repeatable.

That's not how the rest of the game operates. Challenge banners offer better reward. It is not consistent and is a waste of assets.
My idea would add re-playability and better challenge. This way players who completed old stories could go back and experience epic boss fight from story arcs they wished had them (like Morrowind, Summerset, and Elsweyr)

Your idea doesn't even solve the boss fight being anti-climatic since they still have to do the boring boss fight anyway at the apex of the story. It's just a way to make yet more rewards exclusive to endgame players.

Literally the opposite state in the OP

As I said

In order to balance this out with new or casual players, this would require the separate veteran instance to have different mechanics.
Because story bosses like the Dragons in Elweyr we’re just pure time gates.
They were seriously extremely anti-climatic.

That issue would not be resolved by “self nerfing“.
Speaking as somebody that was using less than ideal gear & stats, it was still a boring fight - in fact even more so because it just took longer.
Mechanics are what makes or breaks a good boss fight.

The Mechanics in "Veteran Mode" would be very different from what they are in Normal in order to better challenge experienced endgame players

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

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Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

@spartaxoxo

The purpose of the proposal being to get story related achievements and cosmetics that new players cannot get?

No it is to make it hard. If your focus is in on new players ability to beat it then it's not hard.

Where did I state anywhere that new players could beat the challenge banner? Just because the rewards would go to everyone doesn't mean the boss kill would be. A challenge banner makes an existing fight harder and does not alter the existing reward structure.

Literally the only difference between the two proposals is rewards and that it wouldn't be repeatable.

That's not how the rest of the game operates. Challenge banners offer better reward. It is not consistent and is a waste of assets.
My idea would add re-playability and better challenge. This way players who completed old stories could go back and experience epic boss fight from story arcs they wished had them (like Morrowind, Summerset, and Elsweyr)

As I said, the only reason to oppose all of your proposed ideas for optional difficulty is selfishness, plain and simple. The only arguments I've seen against your proposal have been from a stand point of "we want what we want, and you can't have what you want because I don't want it or don't want to work for it". Making it so that an entire portion of the player base is invalidated for no reason. What a shame.

Then you haven't actually thought about the system being changed or people's suggestions.

I think it's far more selfish to ask for something to be taken from one group when you already have a lot of it. Like Kylie Jenner asking poor people for donations to help her become a billionaire when she's already a multi-millionaire

Shall I copy paste the definition of taking?

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Which we have explained is a band aid

It is not a band-aid if the point is to make the story anti-climatic. It is ONLY a band-aid if the point is the cosmetics.

Having the exciting fight be a part of the actual story is actually a superior solution to the climax of the story being boring than having people fight the old boss again later completely separately from the story beats.

And challenge banners change mechanics, health, damage, etc. Hard modes can get so extreme that they almost feel like a new boss. It is not different to your proposal with the exception of it not being a separate instance with it's own rewards.

That is literally it's only difference.

Your challenge banner idea actually goes outside the reward structure

That is the entire point because the existing reward structure is the reason for cosmetics being so unobtainable. One of the only exceptions is quests, so obviously I would not want to the only content not under the existing reward structure causing problems to be added to it.

Just because something works one way doesn't mean every reward has to be the same. There is nothing wrong with introductory content rewards being able to be obtained by everyone.

SilverBride · November 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

and in wow, story unfolds partly in dungeons and raids. tells me that you haven't played wow for at least 2 expansions if you think that story is confined to overland only.

Never said it was. But overland does not have multiple difficulty levels like the dungeons and raids.

Iccotak · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

Then make a thread about this problematic lack of obtainables instead of hijacking and making this one about it

Linaleah · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

SilverBride · November 2020

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Again, you make a lot of assumptions. You have yet to present a single valid reason against it.

I have made several that you seem to have overlooked. But I am not the one asking for anything to change. Therefor I am not the one who needs to present a valid argument for why it should be changed.

The OP stating "because it's boring to vet players and we want special cosmetic rewards", even though he hasn't even played any of the new content, isn't very convincing.

Iccotak · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Which we have explained is a band aid

It is not a band-aid if the point is to make the story anti-climatic. It is ONLY a band-aid if the point is the cosmetics.

Having the exciting fight be a part of the actual story is actually a superior solution to the climax of the story being boring than having people fight the old boss again later completely separately from the story beats.

It is a band-aid if
1. The mechanics are not altered enough to challenge people (this would be the case with a challenge banner, there would be more necessary revisions to make many of these fight hard beyond boosted defense and HP
2. People can't go back to enjoy the fixed better boss fights

Except a player could choose to do the Veteran Boss fight on the first go round. I never said they could not do that.
Just make a minimum Level and CP to access Veteran.

Linaleah · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

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Linaleah wrote: »

and in wow, story unfolds partly in dungeons and raids. tells me that you haven't played wow for at least 2 expansions if you think that story is confined to overland only.

Never said it was. But overland does not have multiple difficulty levels like the dungeons and raids.

but it kinda does. you can scale yourself down so that older content is still relevant rather then one shot. you could go into zones above your level and give yourself challenge that way. and again, maybe i'm misunderstanding something, but I thought OP was asking for variable difficulties for instanced story content? which is why i compared it to SWTOR, but in case of WoW - brawlers guild could be similar, or various mage tower achievements back in legion and those role training thingies the name of which escapes me right now ... training grounds! (personaly I never made it past silver)

also... it doesn't have to be or not be identical to WoW or swtor or anything else. just because another game doesn't have something, doesn't mean we should have it here. and vice versa. after all - we don't have mythic + in ESO. something that wow players expect at this point.

Iccotak · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

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Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Again, you make a lot of assumptions. You have yet to present a single valid reason against it.

The OP stating "because it's boring to vet players and we want special cosmetic rewards", even though he hasn't even played any of the new content, isn't very convincing.

Actually I said the boss fight are boring and it'd be nice to have a Veteran mode but if we do that then we would have to add in rewards for the Veteran activity - just like every Veteran activity does

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

Then make a thread about this problematic lack of obtainables instead of hijacking and making this one about it

This thread is about that whether you like it or not. When you add a system that was not part of the existing structure into that existing structure, that idea takes on all the pros and cons of that existing structure.

Olauron · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

@Olauron
show previous quotes

"Some cosmetics were locked" doesn't mean "all cosmetics should be locked". The more cosmetics is locked, the less reason there is to play the game.

Again your issue does not stem from the OP but from a lack of obtainable cosmetics in game.
take that up in another thread

There are obtainable cosmetics in story now. They are available for everyone. Now you want include into the story the same crap that already exists in dungeons (which I am not buying) and give only part of the story rewards to everyone, keeping other rewards only for yourself (the reason why I am not buying dungeons).

Iccotak wrote: »

But if we were to compare it to single player games - like Elder Scrolls. All have difficulty options.
Dagoth Ur in Morrowind was set up as the games final boss.
All are RPGs that got progressively harder as you played story content and if it wasn't hard enough they gave you optional difficulty.

In Morrowind you don't even need to fight Dagoth Ur, you should simply attack the Heart.
In Oblivion you don't fight Dagon, Martin does it.
In Skyrim you can just use one (only one) shout to bring Alduin down and the rest will be done by spirits.

Linaleah wrote: »

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

When I am buying a content, I am paying for all the rewards included in it. The more rewards are inaccessible to me, the less reason to buy the content.

spartaxoxo · November 2020

The mechanics are not altered enough to challenge people (this would be the case with a challenge banner, there would be more necessary revisions to make many of these fight hard beyond boosted defense and HP

Challenge banners do more than boost defense and hp. Have you ever actually completed hard mode on any hard content? What skins do you even have? Because that's a ridiculous statement. Challenge banners change mechanics, hp, defense, and offense. They add things into the fight that are too difficult for regular normal vet.

You're either purposefully misrepresenting my proposal here or are uninformed as to how they work.

Linaleah · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

you are assuming that it would have been obtainable for everyone. is it the way vet only pets and dyes are obtainable for everyone? because gosh darn it I would absolutely LOVE to have those vet dyes and pets, but as I cannot get through vet content - I do not get to have them. it kinda sucks, but I have plenty of normal mode rewards to work forward still. right now, every time new dlc dungeon is added - there are normal rewards. and vet rewards

are you assuming that they will do away with normal rewards, should extra rewards be available in a future? are you assuming that those rewards would have existed if veteran difficulty was NOT there? its extras! and its ok not to have everything. it really is.

SilverBride · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

we would have to add in rewards for the Veteran activity - just like every Veteran activity does

And that is what it really comes down to.

By your own admission you haven't played since Elsweyr, so I assume that you aren't a subscriber. Why would they listen to what you want, and give you extra rewards, over players who are playing and care enough about the game to subscribe? They would have too much to lose if they did that.

Iccotak · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

Iccotak · November 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

are you assuming that they will do away with normal rewards, should extra rewards be available in a future? are you assuming that those rewards would have existed if veteran difficulty was NOT there?

Agreed, it does come off like that is there mindset and conclusion

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · November 2020

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Linaleah wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

you are assuming that it would have been obtainable for everyone.

They would have. Under the current system all story related dyes, titles, etc are given to everyone just for beating the story.

Iccotak · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

we would have to add in rewards for the Veteran activity - just like every Veteran activity does

And that is what it really comes down to.

By your own admission you haven't played since Elsweyr, so I assume that you aren't a subscriber. Why would they listen to what you want, and give you extra rewards, over players who are playing and care enough about the game to subscribe? They would have too much to lose if they did that.

I stopped subscribing partly because of that very issue with story bosses (also life and school)
But Yes, how dare I criticize a game I have played since beta but take a break for the majority of one year..oh the humanity.

Also are you really saying that is your "Gotcha" moment, is me pointing out how I literally designed the "Veteran Mode" after other Veteran Modes already in the game.

I said the boss fight are boring and it'd be nice to have a Veteran mode BUT if we do that then we would have to add in rewards for the Veteran activity - just like every Veteran activity does

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can in-game do same as anyone else. And I am vehemently opposed to any idea that changes that.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

I thought we already established your definition of casual and mine were completely different? As if I'm unaware of the types of players that play after all these years. Let it be.

spartaxoxo · November 2020

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

I thought we already established your definition of casual and mine were completely different? As if I'm unaware of the types of players that play after all these years. Let it be.

Nope. I will not. This suggestion alienates a group of casuals and I will make sure that is known.

Iccotak · November 2020

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

Except again your primary issue is the lack of obtainable cosmetics and feeling like too much is gated behind Veteran content.

Your mindset has been only one side can have what they want.
When in reality it'd be better to do both.

Put more cosmetics in normal overland (which ZOS has been doing with the Excavation skill lines and multiple events every year to get more, also a money store if you really want something, so it's not like you're being ignored)
AND We can get the Optional Veteran Boss Fight