Harder Main Story Bosses

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

For the twentieth time, no one here is proposing anything be taken away from anyone. Only that there be options added. Which is in fact healthy for the longevity of the game, as it gives people like me something to do after they reach level 10.

They are proposing that.

Right now they can get all achievements and associated rewards through normal questing. With this change, they cannot. This takes away ability to receive ALL achievements and associated rewards through normal questing by breaking it down into a tiered reward system that excludes some players
[/ If a player is really so obsessed with achievements, I hate to tell you but they will need to up their dps at some point anyway in that case. That's how every single game is.

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Because your present argument is from the concern of being able to obtain cosmetics in the game.
When there are already plenty of cosmetics gated behind veteran achievements.

That's the problem.

You are talking taking content from people who have only a little content and giving it to people who already have a lot. It's like if poor people were being asked to donate money to make Kylie Jenner a billionaire because being a multi-millionaire isn't enough.

The new player can only complete and get all the associated achievements from quests and delves. Every other system caters to established players instead. Those established players don't need to take over introductory content meant for newer players to feel rewarded and accomplished too. And yes, many of them do care about cosmetics and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Like this apparently super strong boss actually had something to brag about. Now we know not everyone wants this, but leaving it as an option vastly improves a LOT of peoples' experience in the game.

That's fine. But no exclusives rewards for it should be introduced. You do not need a fancy cosmetic that some new player couldn't get because they didn't really complete the quest missions beating it on normal.

They saved the world, they get the prize. Same as you. I would be supportive of boss difficulty scaling automatically based on your stats, or some kind of challenge banner designed to be changed for role play.

My objection is not to the increased difficulty for immersion, it's to tying exclusive rewards to those missions and gate keeping new players out of it.

Completing things on a harder difficulty should earn exclusive achievements at the very least. Dyes, titles, skins should be earned on harder content, but I'd be so danged happy if they offered an optional increased difficulty that I'd gladly take a compromise.

I guess an achievement that wasn't tied to any reward would be an alright compromise. I just know so many casual players that have so much trouble with stuff being out of their reach because it's for the elite. One of the reasons they keep coming back anyway is they love the quests and that this is something they can do and feel accomplished. I wouldn't want that taken away from them. I don't think it's good for the game's longevity to only cater to established players for one thing, but also because I want them to enjoy the game too.

Plus as someone who does Vet content, there is genuinely never nothing to do. Sometimes I get overwhelmed honestly and go enjoy the easier content because it's easier. Knocking out some simple quest achievement can be a nice break when you and your raid group leader are fighting because you're stuck on a boss in a dlc trial prog

For me it's a matter of just wanting to relax, for others I know it's a matter of can or cannot rather than desire. They cannot do vet content, period.

For the twentieth time, no one here is proposing anything be taken away from anyone. Only that there be options added. Which is in fact healthy for the longevity of the game, as it gives people like me something to do after they reach level 10.

They are proposing that.

Right now they can get all achievements and associated rewards through normal questing. With this change, they cannot. This takes away ability to receive ALL achievements and associated rewards through normal questing by breaking it down into a tiered reward system that excludes some players

I hate to tell you this, but if a player is really that obsessed with achievements, then they're going to need to obtain higher dps to get the many achievements in game anyway. Having achievements for harder content is a good thing, and for extreme casuals as you've described to me, literally nothing would have changed.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

spartaxoxo

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

Seminolegirl1992

I think you misunderstand the meaning of taking. You are not taking away something that has yet to be earned. Vet trials and dungeon achievements have not been taken from you. They have yet to be earned. You lose nothing from the addition of optional difficulty.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

spartaxoxo

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

I think you misunderstand the meaning of taking. You are not taking away something that has yet to be earned. Vet trials and dungeon achievements have not been taken from you. They have yet to be earned. You lose nothing from the addition of optional difficulty.

I can get all achievements and rewards doing normal questing currently. Under the new system, I cannot. You are proposing the old system, in which I can get all rewards is taken away for a new system that has tiered rewards.

New and Casual goes from

All rewards > only some rewards

That is taking.

Seminolegirl1992

Also, no, 10-15k can complete any normal content in this game.15-20k for vet content. Vet dlc 25k. 25-30k for vet trials. 35-40k vet dlc trials.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

I think you misunderstand the meaning of taking. You are not taking away something that has yet to be earned. Vet trials and dungeon achievements have not been taken from you. They have yet to be earned. You lose nothing from the addition of optional difficulty.

It looks like I'll have to copy paste the definition of the word "taking" at the rate this thread has been going.

spartaxoxo

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

Yeah. They do. I had to actually help an ill family member with normal Vateshran Hollows (I know them in RL life. I just took their controller and played for them). I can do about 25k on their character, they can do about 12. I could beat Vateshran and they could not. Other people have different experiences than you.

I also don't care what's written in the post.

These players can get all the rewards right now. And under their proposal, they will not. This objectively means that they could clear all available rewards and achievements before, and won't under OP's proposal. People who claim things have no downsides aren't being objective and I don't have to follow along with that.

The upsides are the quests would be more rewarding, and more exciting for established players and for the majority of the playerbase. The downside is that some players won't be able to get them, and that new and casual players won't be able to complete all the achievements anymore. Which you put more weight on is a matter of perspective, but none of those points change just because they are inconvenient to a particular argument.

Both up and downsides exist.

Newbies can get all the achievements now, and this proposal takes that away. They could before and then it changed, and now that ability is gone. That is taking.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

Yeah. They do. I had to actually help an ill family member with normal Vateshran Hollows (I know them in RL life. I just took their controller and played for them). I can do about 25k on their character, they can do about 12. I could beat Vateshran and they could not. Other people have different experiences than you.

I also don't care what's written in the post.

These players can get all the rewards right now. And under their proposal, they will not. This objectively means that they could clear all avaiable rewards before, and won't under OP's proposal. People who claim things have no downsides aren't being objective and I don't have to follow all along with that.

The upsides are the quests would be more rewarding, and more exciting for established players and for the majority of the playerbase. The downside is that some players won't be able to get them, and that new and casual players won't be able to complete all the achievements anymore. Which you put more weight on is a matter of perspective, but none of those points change just because they are inconvenient to a particular argument.

Both up and downsides exist.

If you don't care what's written in OP's post, please tell me why you're even commenting here?

spartaxoxo

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

Yeah. They do. I had to actually help an ill family member with normal Vateshran Hollows (I know them in RL life. I just took their controller and played for them). I can do about 25k on their character, they can do about 12. I could beat Vateshran and they could not. Other people have different experiences than you.

I also don't care what's written in the post.

These players can get all the rewards right now. And under their proposal, they will not. This objectively means that they could clear all avaiable rewards before, and won't under OP's proposal. People who claim things have no downsides aren't being objective and I don't have to follow all along with that.

The upsides are the quests would be more rewarding, and more exciting for established players and for the majority of the playerbase. The downside is that some players won't be able to get them, and that new and casual players won't be able to complete all the achievements anymore. Which you put more weight on is a matter of perspective, but none of those points change just because they are inconvenient to a particular argument.

Both up and downsides exist.

If you don't care what's written in OP's post, please tell me why you're even commenting here?

I don't care about one particular thing =/= I don't care about all of it.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

Yeah. They do. I had to actually help an ill family member with normal Vateshran Hollows (I know them in RL life. I just took their controller and played for them). I can do about 25k on their character, they can do about 12. I could beat Vateshran and they could not. Other people have different experiences than you.

I also don't care what's written in the post.

These players can get all the rewards right now. And under their proposal, they will not. This objectively means that they could clear all avaiable rewards before, and won't under OP's proposal. People who claim things have no downsides aren't being objective and I don't have to follow all along with that.

The upsides are the quests would be more rewarding, and more exciting for established players and for the majority of the playerbase. The downside is that some players won't be able to get them, and that new and casual players won't be able to complete all the achievements anymore. Which you put more weight on is a matter of perspective, but none of those points change just because they are inconvenient to a particular argument.

Both up and downsides exist.

If you don't care what's written in OP's post, please tell me why you're even commenting here?

I don't care about one particular thing =/= I don't care about all of it.

That particular thing as you put it, is the premise of your disagreement here. We have nothing further to discuss in which case.

spartaxoxo

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

Yeah. They do. I had to actually help an ill family member with normal Vateshran Hollows (I know them in RL life. I just took their controller and played for them). I can do about 25k on their character, they can do about 12. I could beat Vateshran and they could not. Other people have different experiences than you.

I also don't care what's written in the post.

These players can get all the rewards right now. And under their proposal, they will not. This objectively means that they could clear all avaiable rewards before, and won't under OP's proposal. People who claim things have no downsides aren't being objective and I don't have to follow all along with that.

The upsides are the quests would be more rewarding, and more exciting for established players and for the majority of the playerbase. The downside is that some players won't be able to get them, and that new and casual players won't be able to complete all the achievements anymore. Which you put more weight on is a matter of perspective, but none of those points change just because they are inconvenient to a particular argument.

Both up and downsides exist.

If you don't care what's written in OP's post, please tell me why you're even commenting here?

I don't care about one particular thing =/= I don't care about all of it.

That particular thing as you put it, is the premise of your disagreement here. We have nothing further to discuss in which case.

The one thing being that it doesn't detract from anyone else/have any downsides is neither the main point of their post nor my disagreement.

The main point of my disagreement is the idea is tying achievements and additonal loot behind the quest bosses.

The OP claims that this is a side idea and not the main idea, and others have expressed they don't care as much about the loot but the experience.

In which case, there shouldn't be any problems with not tying loot and achievements to the OP'S idea. If it's purely about the story, there should not be a huge problem with making it a story thing only.

And yet I have had many replies trying to tell me that a group of players losing the ability to get all the achievements isn't taking away the ability to get all the achievements. Or that there are no downsides. Both of which I find pretty preposterous since I know people IRL that might uninstall over such a change.

Seminolegirl1992

"And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

The upsides are the quests would be more rewarding, and more exciting for established players and for the majority of the playerbase. The downside is that some players won't be able to get them, and that new and casual players won't be able to complete all the achievements anymore.

Both up and downsides exist. Newbies can get all the achievements now, and this proposal takes that away. They could before and then it changed, and now that ability is gone. That is taking."

But they already cannot complete *all* the achievements because they're not doing *all* the content. That's like asking to get the Master Angler achievement boat without completing the necessary requirements. I have accepted I will never get that boat because I don't have the patience. But I'm not going to fuss about other people getting a pretty boat because they earned it. Newbies cannot get all the achievements if they don't do vet content. I'm not a newbie and I definitely am never going to earn all the achievements...that's not even the point of the game. The proposal does not take anything away from new players. It merely *adds* something for new and existing players to achieve. Your logic makes no sense.

spartaxoxo

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

But they already cannot complete *all* the achievements because they're not doing *all* the content. .

They can get all of the quest related achievements, which is what I was clearly talking about and which is the topic of this thread. Blowing someone way out of proportion to pretend their logic doesn't make sense, doesn't make their ideas less true. It just means your responding to something that was never actually said and attributing to that person. A strawman.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

Yeah. They do. I had to actually help an ill family member with normal Vateshran Hollows (I know them in RL life. I just took their controller and played for them). I can do about 25k on their character, they can do about 12. I could beat Vateshran and they could not. Other people have different experiences than you.

I also don't care what's written in the post.

These players can get all the rewards right now. And under their proposal, they will not. This objectively means that they could clear all avaiable rewards before, and won't under OP's proposal. People who claim things have no downsides aren't being objective and I don't have to follow all along with that.

The upsides are the quests would be more rewarding, and more exciting for established players and for the majority of the playerbase. The downside is that some players won't be able to get them, and that new and casual players won't be able to complete all the achievements anymore. Which you put more weight on is a matter of perspective, but none of those points change just because they are inconvenient to a particular argument.

Both up and downsides exist.

If you don't care what's written in OP's post, please tell me why you're even commenting here?

I don't care about one particular thing =/= I don't care about all of it.

That particular thing as you put it, is the premise of your disagreement here. We have nothing further to discuss in which case.

The one thing being that it doesn't detract from anyone else/have any downsides is neither the main point of their post nor my disagreement.

The main point of my disagreement is the idea is tying achievements and additonal loot behind the quest bosses.

The OP claims that this is a side idea and not the main idea, and others have expressed they don't care as much about the loot but the experience.

In which case, there shouldn't be any problems with not tying loot and achievements to the OP'S idea. If it's purely about the story, there should not be a huge problem with making it a story thing only.

And yet I have had many replies trying to tell me that a group of players losing the ability to get all the achievements isn't taking away the ability to get all the achievements. Or that there are no downsides. Both of which I find pretty preposterous since I know people IRL that might uninstall over such a change.

Except you can’t do all of the quests without getting into the veteran content - the trial is still part of that.

But again as long as the “Lair” achievements are a separate section then your concern is taken care of.
Players still get an achievement for beating it like you normally do.

SilverBride

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I still think the whole "achievements" thing is just silly...
I don't know what this whole "achievement" thing is supposed to be good for. All it seems like to me (and family and friends) is kindergarten oneupsmanship.

Achievements give you a sense of accomplishment. Some also give you items, and new dye colors, etc.. It is not about one upping anyone. I don't think others can even see what achievements you've earned. It's a personal reward for meeting a goal.

And even if you don't understand why people enjoy them, all players should have equal opportunity to the same goals in the game.

barney2525

Iccotak wrote: »

@hafgood
To address questions.
Only the boss encounter would become repeatable, not the entire quest line, mainly for the sake of allowing the player to adjust the difficulty between normal and veteran. (also what if a player did on Normal but wants to try it on Veteran) These encounters would be on the map as "Lairs" to distinguish themselves from Dungeons and Trials.

The reason I proposed cosmetic rewards is because the last time I made a similar proposal with higher tier gear rewards it divided people and it became entirely about the reward. So I thought cosmetic reward was a good compromise seeing as how many MMOs (WoW in particular) have cosmetic rewards for endgame content including main story bosses.
The reason I propose any reward at all is because all in-game activities with difficulty options have a tier reward system, so I'm following that logic.

@barney2525
Bosses are not just easier because the player may be experienced. The bosses are specifically designed for the new player which is odd because the writing continues the narrative for longtime players - many of whom play endgame content.

Like I said in the OP; this is Not about a lack of difficult content, this is about how the gameplay experience affects the story and hyping up a main villain for a year only to have a mediocre, short lived fight is really anti-climatic and sours the story. It leaves us with a feeling of "That's it?" and to be quite honest I feel that it is a waste of resources to NOT at the very least have a difficulty option for the main boss of a story that a whole year was dedicated to.

Are you really trying to tell me, that very First time you ever completed the Main Quest, the final fight was ' too easy' for you?

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

You're not taking content from anyone. You're offering it to people who want to earn it. That's not taking. The majority of the game is catered to a casual playstyle, not the other way around. .

Dungeon, Trials, arenas, the past 2 years of world bosses, and world events = not new player friendly

New player friendly content for the past 2 years = quests and delves.

That's it. Most of the content that is actually new has NOT been new player friendly. Most of it has been for vet players. Even the world events and world bosses changed from being casual content to vet content.

So much so that the devs are actually beginning to scale it back because casual players have in fact taken issue with all the new content for years now being primarily catered toward vet players.

You must be joking. All content that's been released has had a normal mode, and any player over cp160 (which takes less than two weeks to reach) can run them for gear. Less cp than that if they just want to run it. Same with dungeons, same with arenas. The overwhelming majority of content in this game has and always will be very noob friendly.

Even normal mode on that content isn't for new players, it's for mid-tier players. I have had plenty of people drop group in normal dlc dungeons and who struggle with stuff like NMA.

That's for mid tier players not new or casual players.

You and I have a drastically different definition of casual, in which case.

You're failing to see a very sizable portion of the playerbase in that case. They run around in Overland and crafted gear, decorate houses, pull 15k dps or less, and enjoy questing and random normals. But they really want an option to exclude dlc dungeons from random dungeons, because even on normal those are just too hard. They require help with world bosses and world events.

Most of them are just new. Some of them are dealing with things like bad internet or health problems. They deserve to have fun too. There is currently rewarding and accomplished content for them and everyone else. That shouldn't change.

I am not overlooking that portion of the playerbase, as I have played this game for many years and made it my in game profession to teach said casuals in a large guild tailored to train them. 15k dps or even 10k dps is perfectly fine to run any normal dungeon, trial, or arena with. It is casual content.

If they are training with you, they are already changing over from casual players to mid tier players.

Incorrect. Training as in teaching mechanics, and that every piece of content can be done as long as mechanics are followed. You misconstrued my intentions.

Some of the mechancis literally require more dps than that.

And yes, those players DO start out achievement hunting. That they will eventually have to get better if they want harder achievements is not a reason to take away their introductory completions and achievements.

On normal they do not, and you can't change my mind after my own experiences. There is no dps check on normal that cannot be overcome by the most casual of casuals. And this is the last time I'll say this: the *introductory* achievements are proposed to stay the same. I will not keep arguing what was written in black and white in the OP's post. That is all.

Yeah. They do. I had to actually help an ill family member with normal Vateshran Hollows (I know them in RL life. I just took their controller and played for them). I can do about 25k on their character, they can do about 12. I could beat Vateshran and they could not. Other people have different experiences than you.

I also don't care what's written in the post.

These players can get all the rewards right now. And under their proposal, they will not. This objectively means that they could clear all avaiable rewards before, and won't under OP's proposal. People who claim things have no downsides aren't being objective and I don't have to follow all along with that.

The upsides are the quests would be more rewarding, and more exciting for established players and for the majority of the playerbase. The downside is that some players won't be able to get them, and that new and casual players won't be able to complete all the achievements anymore. Which you put more weight on is a matter of perspective, but none of those points change just because they are inconvenient to a particular argument.

Both up and downsides exist.

If you don't care what's written in OP's post, please tell me why you're even commenting here?

I don't care about one particular thing =/= I don't care about all of it.

That particular thing as you put it, is the premise of your disagreement here. We have nothing further to discuss in which case.

The one thing being that it doesn't detract from anyone else/have any downsides is neither the main point of their post nor my disagreement.

The main point of my disagreement is the idea is tying achievements and additonal loot behind the quest bosses.

The OP claims that this is a side idea and not the main idea, and others have expressed they don't care as much about the loot but the experience.

In which case, there shouldn't be any problems with not tying loot and achievements to the OP'S idea. If it's purely about the story, there should not be a huge problem with making it a story thing only.

And yet I have had many replies trying to tell me that a group of players losing the ability to get all the achievements isn't taking away the ability to get all the achievements. Or that there are no downsides. Both of which I find pretty preposterous since I know people IRL that might uninstall over such a change.

Except you can’t do all of the quests without getting into the veteran content - the trial is still part of that.

But again as long as the “Lair” achievements are a separate section then your concern is taken care of.
Players still get an achievement for beating it like you normally do.

Trials are not a quest related achievements.

Klad

Jaraal wrote: »

They could put a Hard Mode scroll on the ground, like they do for Undaunted final bosses.

That sir or Madam is a awesome idea.

I think folks would be happy if they made them a bit more hardy and maybe switch up the attacks every now and again.

Iccotak

barney2525 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

@hafgood
To address questions.
Only the boss encounter would become repeatable, not the entire quest line, mainly for the sake of allowing the player to adjust the difficulty between normal and veteran. (also what if a player did on Normal but wants to try it on Veteran) These encounters would be on the map as "Lairs" to distinguish themselves from Dungeons and Trials.

The reason I proposed cosmetic rewards is because the last time I made a similar proposal with higher tier gear rewards it divided people and it became entirely about the reward. So I thought cosmetic reward was a good compromise seeing as how many MMOs (WoW in particular) have cosmetic rewards for endgame content including main story bosses.
The reason I propose any reward at all is because all in-game activities with difficulty options have a tier reward system, so I'm following that logic.

@barney2525
Bosses are not just easier because the player may be experienced. The bosses are specifically designed for the new player which is odd because the writing continues the narrative for longtime players - many of whom play endgame content.

Like I said in the OP; this is Not about a lack of difficult content, this is about how the gameplay experience affects the story and hyping up a main villain for a year only to have a mediocre, short lived fight is really anti-climatic and sours the story. It leaves us with a feeling of "That's it?" and to be quite honest I feel that it is a waste of resources to NOT at the very least have a difficulty option for the main boss of a story that a whole year was dedicated to.

Are you really trying to tell me, that very First time you ever completed the Main Quest, the final fight was ' too easy' for you?

I completed the main quest before One Tamriel. Mannimarco and Molag Bal were both harder back then.
Though not as hard as the veteran mode in this proposal

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I also don't care what's written in the post.

Then don't comment if you're not going to read the whole thing

spartaxoxo wrote: »

These players can get all the rewards right now. And under their proposal, they will not.

Factually untrue, you cannot get every achievement in a zone or all "worth getting" without playing Vet content

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This objectively means that they could clear all available rewards and achievements before, and won't under OP's proposal.

Untrue

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Newbies can get all the achievements now, and this proposal takes that away.

No they could not get ALL the achievements and this proposal doesn't make it less possible to do that.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They could before and then it changed, and now that ability is gone. That is taking.

Again as long as the “Lair” achievements are a separate section then your concern is taken care of.
There would just be a separate section of achievements separate from the "Main Quest section" in achievements.
Players still get an achievement for beating Main Story like you normally do, while those who do the Veteran instance can earn the other cosmetic rewards.
This fix was proposed a few times.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You want to take away one of the only pieces of content they can complete on their own.

Never said this.

The achievements would have their own section

You can still get all the "Quest" related content and their normal achievements . The Veteran achievements have nothing to do with being able to complete a storyline and would have separate rewards.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The main point of my disagreement is the idea is tying achievements and additonal loot behind the quest bosses.

The OP claims that this is a side idea and not the main idea, and others have expressed they don't care as much about the loot but the experience.

In which case, there shouldn't be any problems with not tying loot and achievements to the OP'S idea. If it's purely about the story, there should not be a huge problem with making it a story thing only.

And yet I have had many replies trying to tell me that a group of players losing the ability to get all the achievements isn't taking away the ability to get all the achievements. Or that there are no downsides. Both of which I find pretty preposterous since I know people IRL that might uninstall over such a change.

The only reason you have been getting so many replies is because you were fast to dismiss an optional difficulty mode for story bosses based purely on the reward design that the game already functions on "Harder Difficulties yield achievements with cosmetic rewards" Even though people presented reasonable workarounds to your desire to complete a zone (without doing the Trial)

What I find preposterous, even silly, is that anyone would be so mad over an optional difficulty that offered obtainable cosmetics - like much of the rest of the game does and has no effect on their ability to complete a quest line - that they ragequit and uninstalled the game.

Iccotak

@spartaxoxo

An example of what I am saying

Let's look at Elsweyr for an example (Northern & Southern zones)

Right now there are
- General
- Exploration
- Quests
- Trial (Sunspire)

My proposal would add one more section called "Lairs". This way players can still complete General, Exploration, and Quests on normal and would not rob any of them of the progress they have already made so far in those sections.

- General
- Exploration
- Quests
- Trial (Sunspire)
- Lair (Jode's Core, Doomstone Keep, Dragonhold)

Seminolegirl1992

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The main point of my disagreement is the idea is tying achievements and additonal loot behind the quest bosses.

The OP claims that this is a side idea and not the main idea, and others have expressed they don't care as much about the loot but the experience.

In which case, there shouldn't be any problems with not tying loot and achievements to the OP'S idea. If it's purely about the story, there should not be a huge problem with making it a story thing only.

And yet I have had many replies trying to tell me that a group of players losing the ability to get all the achievements isn't taking away the ability to get all the achievements. Or that there are no downsides. Both of which I find pretty preposterous since I know people IRL that might uninstall over such a change.

The only reason you have been getting so many replies is because you were fast to dismiss an optional difficulty mode for story bosses based purely on the reward design that the game already functions on "Harder Difficulties yield achievements with cosmetic rewards" Even though people presented reasonable workarounds to your desire to complete a zone (without doing the Trial)

What I find preposterous, even silly, is that anyone would be so mad over an optional difficulty that offered obtainable cosmetics - like much of the rest of the game does and has no effect on their ability to complete a quest line - that they ragequit and uninstalled the game.

100% this

ke.sardenb14_ESO

I don't understand, are experienced player just supposed to sit in craglon for yelling dungeons and trials groups. Lets forget about achievements or repeatable instances.I don't think it is a big thing to ask for better scaling in content, specifically when many of the year end bosses are single player instances anyway.

Pixiepumpkin

i think bosses r ok in hardness. I dont do the vet mode on dlc because they r too hard form me now

ke.sardenb14_ESO

Since zos's year updates seem to be 2 dungeons-large region-2 dungeons-small region; it may even be feasible to make the smaller region like a smaller craglon. Since it will be the second part of the story content anyway, and most players will be at or near lvl 50(CP). That way the region is not totally in accessible, but encourages new players to group up, and can at least be a hardy fight for seasoned players

itscompton

I think the Bosses for group delves and story missions in Craglorn are just about the perfect difficulty for solo main story bosses. They have health pools around 6-800K so they don't just drop dead from one rotation. And many have some mechanics that can actually kill you when you don't know them but are fairly easy to learn and overcome without getting frustrating.
The Shada fight at the end of Skyreach for example is a challenge at first with a few mechanics going on but nothing that can't be figured out pretty quickly. Doing it solo actually felt like a real boss fight, it has mechanics that kick in to keep you from nuking the boss even though it doesn't have a lot of health and if you don't pay attention to the 4 caster adds it summons they take 10 seconds to channel a spell and each shoot a projectile that combines to one shot you. But you can dodgeroll their projectiles, block them, or nuke the casters who die very quickly, yet you have to also pay attention to positioning as you deal with them because most of the floor is a fairly strong AOE.
Still a 3 minute cake walk for any good player that knows the mechanics but a fight that will really challenge newer players and teach them skills that will help in dungeons and trials, without being so hard they quit in frustration.