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Harder Main Story Bosses
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Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »The only reason you have been getting so many replies is because you were fast to dismiss an optional difficulty mode .
No. The reason that I got so many replies is because people cannot comprehend that there are downsides to this idea. This would not be optional for people who want to complete ALL of the story related achievements and rewards.
And no, it is not silly that they would quit the game. They have a singular piece of content they can do under a system they do not like, and you want to take it away from them and put it under that system. Why should they stay if that's gonna be the case?
I literally presented a solution to the very problem of the achievement log to you and you've blatantly ignored it several times.
It's not a real solution. Everyone will know that it's a story achievement being taken and it actually ruins things for endgame players having climatic boss fights too. Because now they still gotta do the "boring" boss fight in the middle of the story.
First: Optional, adjective - available to be chosen but not obligatory.
Secondly: there are several people within this thread that have pointed out how they would Love to have an optional endgame version of the story boss.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »You level your character, farm gear, do vet dungeons and trials, and then are upset that the normal overland quest "boss" (they are really just the main antagonist) isn't as hard as a dungeon boss.
What do most players get so strong for? Not to do overland content. They do it so they can do endgame content... vet dungeons and trials.
It isn't reasonable to expect them to turn every single aspect of the game into endgame content. Especially if you get special rewards for it, cosmetic or otherwise.
No We are annoyed that a boss they spent a year hyping up as the ultimate big bad was not really much of a threat - it kills our immersion in the story..
And yet you reject an idea that would actually make him a threat within the story, so that you can turn into yet more vet content that newbies can't do. Even going so far as to pretend to separate it from the story entirely.
Themed cosmetics is the real point.
Because Scaling would not solve the issue. This has been pointed out several times.
It wasn't the only solution offered. I also said they could do a challenge banner.
You're already proposing a change to the current system, there is zero reason why the solution cannot be refined for the content it's being added to, to preserve the purpose of that content.
Story content is introductory content, not endgame.
In video games in general introductiory content usually does not present a challenge to established players. It is not the point of that kind of content. The earliest achievements are usually able to be got by ALL players new and old, and that's extremely typical. There is no reason this could not be as well. It gives an early feeling of reward and achievement, and completing it makes you want to get stronger and do more. Taking that away from early and casual players is extremely demotivating. They are already demotivated at the current state of things and not sticking around, which is why ZOS is pushing more rewards into easier content.
And btw, Rada actually does have mechanics to his fight. Upping his hp, defense, and offensive stats would make him more of a challenge than you're acknowledging.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 22, 2020 8:43PM1 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
It's not "altering" when normal stays the same and there's an added difficulty option2 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
It's not "altering" when normal stays the same and there's an added difficulty option
The added difficulty option IS an alteration of the basic game. And you are even proposing a reward for it.
NO.Edited by SilverBride on November 22, 2020 8:45PMPCNA3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
It's not "altering" when normal stays the same and there's an added difficulty option
It is altering. Under the current system you get every reward on normal. And now the good rewards will be tied to vet. That's a change.3 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »@hafgood
To address questions.
Only the boss encounter would become repeatable, not the entire quest line, mainly for the sake of allowing the player to adjust the difficulty between normal and veteran. (also what if a player did on Normal but wants to try it on Veteran) These encounters would be on the map as "Lairs" to distinguish themselves from Dungeons and Trials.
The reason I proposed cosmetic rewards is because the last time I made a similar proposal with higher tier gear rewards it divided people and it became entirely about the reward. So I thought cosmetic reward was a good compromise seeing as how many MMOs (WoW in particular) have cosmetic rewards for endgame content including main story bosses.
The reason I propose any reward at all is because all in-game activities with difficulty options have a tier reward system, so I'm following that logic.
@barney2525
Bosses are not just easier because the player may be experienced. The bosses are specifically designed for the new player which is odd because the writing continues the narrative for longtime players - many of whom play endgame content.
Like I said in the OP; this is Not about a lack of difficult content, this is about how the gameplay experience affects the story and hyping up a main villain for a year only to have a mediocre, short lived fight is really anti-climatic and sours the story. It leaves us with a feeling of "That's it?" and to be quite honest I feel that it is a waste of resources to NOT at the very least have a difficulty option for the main boss of a story that a whole year was dedicated to.
Are you really trying to tell me, that very First time you ever completed the Main Quest, the final fight was ' too easy' for you?
It was a snooze fest my very first time... One of the most disappointing fights in all of video game history to me.
Then you didn't do it when the game was new, because it was far from easy back then.
You make a lot of assumptions, don't you?Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna2 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Normal is not the same when now from normal you get all rewards and after from normal (with "optional" difficulty) you don't get all rewards.SilverBride wrote: »
It's not "altering" when normal stays the same and there's an added difficulty option
"Some cosmetics were locked" doesn't mean "all cosmetics should be locked". The more cosmetics is locked, the less reason there is to play the game.Furnishing is a cosmetic item.
Going all the way back to "Shadows of the Hist" DLC there were cosmetic items linked behind achievements in veteran mode. Veteran Mode offering unique obtainable cosmetics has always been a thing. Whether or not it is furnishing is semantics, it is still cosmetic.
The proposal uses the same Cosmetic Reward system as the rest of the tiered content in the game.
I proposed a "Veteran Mode" for a story boss. So I based the design on already existing Veteran content.
It seems to me that your problem has less to do with the idea in the OP and more with just how the system is designed in the game right now.
Some saying it is catering to "elites", when it is just providing a cool cosmetic to those who earn it.
Their issue less to do with the story boss and more to do with the fact they don't want to give or share anything with those who regularly do endgame content - saying stuff likeNot everything needs a dye or a title that casuals cannot get.
Look at it from this side. Right now when buying Chapter I get only one thing that I don't need and don't want - a trial. Everything else in a Chapter I want and use. With your proposal there will be not only trial, but also vet story, that I don't need and don't want in a Chapter. There will be less than half a thing that I want in a whole Chapter. Why should I buy it then? I will pay for the whole and get less than a half? No, I will simply not pay in this condition.
The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »You level your character, farm gear, do vet dungeons and trials, and then are upset that the normal overland quest "boss" (they are really just the main antagonist) isn't as hard as a dungeon boss.
What do most players get so strong for? Not to do overland content. They do it so they can do endgame content... vet dungeons and trials.
It isn't reasonable to expect them to turn every single aspect of the game into endgame content. Especially if you get special rewards for it, cosmetic or otherwise.
No We are annoyed that a boss they spent a year hyping up as the ultimate big bad was not really much of a threat - it kills our immersion in the story..
And yet you reject an idea that would actually make him a threat within the story, so that you can turn into yet more vet content that newbies can't do. Even going so far as to pretend to separate it from the story entirely.
Themed cosmetics is the real point.
Because Scaling would not solve the issue. This has been pointed out several times.
It wasn't the only solution offered. I also said they could do a challenge banner.
Story content is introductory content, which in video games in general usually does not present a challenge to established players.
the problem being that you have to complete the main story of both Q2 and Q3 stories in order to unlock the final boss.
By that wait time the story becomes far less introductory. Again this is a long running MMO which is different from a single player game. But if we were to compare it to single player games - like Elder Scrolls. All have difficulty options.
Dagoth Ur in Morrowind was set up as the games final boss.
All are RPGs that got progressively harder as you played story content and if it wasn't hard enough they gave you optional difficulty.
As to your challenge banner
Like I said - that would not be enough. That would be a half-measure.Just a challenge banner you can use or perhaps have the boss have defenses and hp that scale off your stats to determine difficulty.
Catering to making it beatable by everyone no matter the level & skill defeats the purpose of the proposal. The idea was to give something for those who regularly participate in endgame content.The earliest achievements are usually able to be got by ALL players new and old, and that's extremely typical. There is no reason this could not be as well.
Your solution isn't preserving the purpose of the content, it's essentially doing nothing. It's a half-measure. a band-aid.You're already proposing a change to the current system, there is zero reason why the solution cannot be refined for the content it's being added to, to preserve the purpose of that content.
I would not know. I didn't play the story this year. I was not interested in getting invested in a story that led to a lackluster boss fight after what I played in Elsweyr.And btw, Rada actually does have mechanics to his fight. Upping his hp, defense, and offensive stats would make him more of a challenge than you're acknowledging.Edited by Iccotak on November 22, 2020 8:55PM1 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@spartaxoxo
under your proposal the boss would not become that much harder
because you are so focused on new players ability to do that "veteran" instance, for the sake of getting all achievements and related cosmetics, which ultimately defeats the purpose of the proposal.
You are focused on getting your way for some obsession about collecting cosmetic rewards but you are not considering other peoples enjoyment of the story and how gameplay affects that.SilverBride wrote: »
I am not judging it. I am judging all the past content.
Though, I have watched the boss fights completed with relative ease from fresh characters.
And there are others here who have complained about them, including Dark Heart of Skyrim.
One year story arc not participated does not invalidate my point which has been an issue going all the way back to Morrowind.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Olauron
Again your issue does not stem from the OP but from a lack of obtainable cosmetics in game."Some cosmetics were locked" doesn't mean "all cosmetics should be locked". The more cosmetics is locked, the less reason there is to play the game.
take that up in another thread2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭under your proposal the boss would not become that much harder
How is a challenge banner not making a boss significantly harder? It's not different than how hard mode is activated for the undaunted, except you can turn them on and off before a fight. Have you even actually played some of the most difficult recent content like VKA?which ultimately defeats the purpose of the proposal.
The purpose of the proposal being to get story related achievements and cosmetics that new players cannot get?
I thought the point was to make the story not be anti-climatic. My way ensures that new players don't get screwed out of achievements and rewards, and endgame players fight a harder boss at the actual climax of the story.
Ofc the only difference is that the existing rewards would be purple instead of blue, so I guess that's not good enough. You want to make a story quest system that excludes newbies from cosmetics and titles. That's the real purpose. The anti-climatic part is just a pretense which is why it's fine to not be a part of the actual story.
The purpose of the OP might not be to have introductory content, but the purpose of the quest system in this game is introductory content. It is NOT endgame content. The NPCs all are scripted as such, down to the dialogue.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 22, 2020 9:16PM2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Olauron
I also have an issue with the lack of obtainable cosmetics in this game for normal players. And like you, recognize that this problem destroys the SINGULAR place that isn't true. So I think you're in the right threadEdited by spartaxoxo on November 22, 2020 9:23PM0 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »@Olauron
I also have an issue with the lack of obtainable cosmetics in this game for normal players. And like you, recognize that this problem destroys the SINGULAR place that isn't true. So I think you're in the right thread
it isn't
If you want to have a thread that discusses lack of obtainable cosmetics then that is a different discussion.
don't hijack one for players that regularly do endgame to want the final boss fight of the year to be hard (as well as those in the chapter and story dlc)2 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »more options for more people while still leaving current modes intact for those of us for whom current difficulty works just fine? aka the way it works in SWTOR?
If you are going to bring other games into it, then take a look at WoW. Their zones have level ranges. The same with their dungeons and raids, even the top tiers of these. So an endgame player can literally go into a top tier raid they now out level, pull the entire place and with one spell kill every mob at once. The same for overland zones. You can literally go in naked and just slap mobs and they drop. Yet their players don't expect them to make harder content for everything. They just do the content they have leveled and geared for.
actualy. when they level squished everything, they also added a time walking feature, where you can pick an expansion to go to, talk to Chromie and and it will scale you down to that expansion's level.
also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists? now personaly I don't do it, I pretty much stick to lfr for current raids, and at most - heroic for dungeons. but.... WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into. (and old raids are for faming pets, mounts and transmog anyways)
that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options. which OP seems to specify will be left alone. so why would you be against it?dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***5 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »If you're going to bring up WoW - they have Raids dedicated to the main antagonists of their expansions. They actually make their story bosses hard.
And we are not saying to make harder content for everything - I literally said in the OP just for the main story bosses.
Their main antagonist is a raid boss. You have to gear up and enter a raid to fight them. That is very different from the overland storyline quests in ESO, where the main antagonist is not part of a dungeon or trial. They are overland content and should remain as such, difficulty level and all.
and it still would be - there would just be an optional difficulty that wouldn't affect you at all.
There would be no obligation for you to do the veteran instance. Its achievements would be in a separate section from "Quests".
you can still complete a zone without touching the trial or "lair"
EDIT: Everybody gets what they want - I am flabbergasted that this is even an issue when it really is not - beyond you just claiming that this is your corner of the game
I honestly genuinely liking your ideas if i'm understanding them correctly. and I think i do.
maybe its just me. I just want to see the content, if I don't get some of the achievements, well so be it, I'm more bothered when I cannot experience the story from DLC dungeons becasue for me - they are not soloable. well.. I'm a little bit bothered that some of the particularly badass furnishings are inaccessible for me, but ah well.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***3 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@spartaxoxoThe purpose of the proposal being to get story related achievements and cosmetics that new players cannot get?
No it is to make it hard. If your focus is in on new players ability to beat it then it's not hard. Therefore it defeats the purpose of the proposal. It wouldn't be Veteran Mode if a new player with sub-optimal skills and gear can beat it
You made it about that.Ofc the only difference is that the existing rewards would be purple instead of blue, so I guess that's not good enough. You want to make a story quest system that excludes newbies from cosmetics and titles. That's the real purpose. The anti-climatic part is just a pretense which is why it's fine to not be a part of the actual story.
I followed how "Veteran Modes" operate in the game already. Your issue is with a system that already exists in the game.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »@Olauron
I also have an issue with the lack of obtainable cosmetics in this game for normal players. And like you, recognize that this problem destroys the SINGULAR place that isn't true. So I think you're in the right thread
it isn't
If you want to have a thread that discusses lack of obtainable cosmetics then that is a different discussion.
don't hijack one for players that regularly do endgame to want the final boss fight of the year to be hard (as well as those in the chapter and story dlc)
This thread takes a system that gives all collectibles achievements hands them to everyone willing to put in the time and turns into a system that only vet players get them. A person who takes issue with that and would uninstall is inthe right thread. Just because their existence is inconvenient to your argument, doesn't mean that they perspective on this idea is any less important than your own.
They would stop buying if this were to be introduced because this system took away content they enjoyed the way it works currently. That is relevant.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 22, 2020 9:31PM1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
It's not "altering" when normal stays the same and there's an added difficulty option
The added difficulty option IS an alteration of the basic game. And you are even proposing a reward for it.
NO.
I don't understand, how is it altering of the base game exactly? to go back to example of swtor, since this seems to be what Icco is proposing. story missions remain story missions. story dungeons get dedicated story mode so that any and all narrative content is available to all. sure there is veteran and master mode, and yes there are separate achievements for it, but why does it even matter? you still. get. to see. the story. in an accessible way!.
in fact... because there would be variable difficulties, its would be much easier to balance them for both baseline AND advance players. more content! why is this so bad? (and I absolutely say this as a dirty DIRTY casual who would never EVER step foot into a veteran mode, ever. I already avoid it as it is)Edited by Linaleah on November 22, 2020 9:35PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@spartaxoxoThe purpose of the proposal being to get story related achievements and cosmetics that new players cannot get?
No it is to make it hard. If your focus is in on new players ability to beat it then it's not hard.
Where did I state anywhere that new players could beat the challenge banner? Just because the rewards would go to everyone doesn't mean the boss kill would be. A challenge banner makes an existing fight harder and does not alter the existing reward structure.
Literally the only difference between the two proposals is rewards and that it wouldn't be repeatable.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 22, 2020 9:34PM0 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@spartaxoxo
How are "Vet Players" any different from those who put in the time to get those rewards?This thread takes a system that gives all collectibles achievements hands them to everyone willing to put in the time and turns into a system that only vet players get them
They literally are putting in the time and effort to get those items.
.Just because their existence is inconvenient to your argument, doesn't mean that they perspective on this idea is any less important than your own
Literally what several of us have been saying to you.2 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭This has certainly been said (and I'm sorry, I'm not brave enough to read through 8 pages) but ..
This is a good idea, however, any reward obtained in those new veteran instances ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO be obtainable somewhere else.
Indeed, you can only do those quests once, and many already did them. Let's not create any missables.
But appart from this, I don't see why it wouldn't be enjoyable.3 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »@spartaxoxoThe purpose of the proposal being to get story related achievements and cosmetics that new players cannot get?
No it is to make it hard. If your focus is in on new players ability to beat it then it's not hard.
Where did I state anywhere that new players could beat the challenge banner? Just because the rewards would go to everyone doesn't mean the boss kill would be. A challenge banner makes an existing fight harder and does not alter the existing reward structure.
Literally the only difference between the two proposals is rewards and that it wouldn't be repeatable.
That's not how the rest of the game operates. Challenge banners offer better reward. It is not consistent and is a waste of assets.
My idea would add re-playability and better challenge. This way players who completed old stories could go back and experience epic boss fight from story arcs they wished had them (like Morrowind, Summerset, and Elsweyr)
Edited by Iccotak on November 22, 2020 9:38PM2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Literally what several of us have been saying to you.
Unlike you, I have taken into account endgame players that find the boss fight anti-climatic which is why I proposed something like a challenge banner.
You insisted that the existence of people who would be put off by this idea was absurd. And when one such player chimed in, you told them to get out of the thread because their opinion was somehow irrelevant.
So, no. Not the same.
I vehemently oppose a "lair" or anything that gives extra rewards to endgame players for story content. We have enough of that in this game. I would support an actually optional difficulty spike be it through boss scaling or a hard mode that kept in the place the existing reward structure.
1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »@spartaxoxoThe purpose of the proposal being to get story related achievements and cosmetics that new players cannot get?
No it is to make it hard. If your focus is in on new players ability to beat it then it's not hard.
Where did I state anywhere that new players could beat the challenge banner? Just because the rewards would go to everyone doesn't mean the boss kill would be. A challenge banner makes an existing fight harder and does not alter the existing reward structure.
Literally the only difference between the two proposals is rewards and that it wouldn't be repeatable.
That's not how the rest of the game operates. Challenge banners offer better reward. It is not consistent and is a waste of assets.
My idea would add re-playability and better challenge. This way players who completed old stories could go back and experience epic boss fight from story arcs they wished had them (like Morrowind, Summerset, and Elsweyr)
Your idea doesn't even solve the boss fight being anti-climatic since they still have to do the boring boss fight anyway at the apex of the story. It's just a way to make yet more rewards exclusive to endgame players. A system that is actively being overhauled because the casual community is fed up with being locked out of so much. And you want to take away the one thing they are not locked out of and expect everyone to be happy with it.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 22, 2020 9:41PM1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »The only reason you have been getting so many replies is because you were fast to dismiss an optional difficulty mode .
No. The reason that I got so many replies is because people cannot comprehend that there are downsides to this idea. This would not be optional for people who want to complete ALL of the story related achievements and rewards.
And no, it is not silly that they would quit the game. They have a singular piece of content they can do under a system they do not like, and you want to take it away from them and put it under that system. Why should they stay if that's gonna be the case?
I literally presented a solution to the very problem of the achievement log to you and you've blatantly ignored it several times.
It's not a real solution. Everyone will know that it's a story achievement being taken and it actually ruins things for endgame players having climatic boss fights too. Because now they still gotta do the "boring" boss fight in the middle of the story.
First: Optional, adjective - available to be chosen but not obligatory.
Secondly: there are several people within this thread that have pointed out how they would Love to have an optional endgame version of the story boss.
It would be required to get all of the achievements and therefore not optional to completing things the way they are already completing them. Pretending it's optional while insisting that normal mode not give the exact same rewards doesn't mean anything.Edited by spartaxoxo on November 22, 2020 9:43PM1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.
Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.
Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.
Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.
PCNA0 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »@spartaxoxoThe purpose of the proposal being to get story related achievements and cosmetics that new players cannot get?
No it is to make it hard. If your focus is in on new players ability to beat it then it's not hard.
Where did I state anywhere that new players could beat the challenge banner? Just because the rewards would go to everyone doesn't mean the boss kill would be. A challenge banner makes an existing fight harder and does not alter the existing reward structure.
Literally the only difference between the two proposals is rewards and that it wouldn't be repeatable.
That's not how the rest of the game operates. Challenge banners offer better reward. It is not consistent and is a waste of assets.
My idea would add re-playability and better challenge. This way players who completed old stories could go back and experience epic boss fight from story arcs they wished had them (like Morrowind, Summerset, and Elsweyr)
As I said, the only reason to oppose all of your proposed ideas for optional difficulty is selfishness, plain and simple. The only arguments I've seen against your proposal have been from a stand point of "we want what we want, and you can't have what you want because I don't want it or don't want to work for it". Making it so that an entire portion of the player base is invalidated for no reason. What a shame.Edited by Suna_Ye_Sunnabe on November 22, 2020 9:45PMAngua Anyammis Ae Sunna3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »The only arguments I've seen against for your proposal have been from a stand point of "we want what we want".
Corrected.Edited by SilverBride on November 22, 2020 9:49PMPCNA1
This discussion has been closed.