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Fake Tanking
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oddbasket✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread is mostly self serving... Fake tanks exist for the same reason as players of any role skip in FG1.
As a tank, if I don't want to do it, I'll get barraged in chat about wasting their time and then vote kicked.
However, when the dps and fake healers who run ahead and aren't capable enough of clearing the dungeon without a tank, only then it matters to them.
Carrying fake healers and low dps in vet is the same but worse as it's more tedious and time consuming, and just wasting everyone else's time.2 -
SgtNuttzmeg✭✭✭✭In the end people burn through normals like this for two reasons: because they are a stupidly easy and because it is far quicker for grinding gear/xp. Address the root causes of this problem and it will largely go away. Forcing gear requirements on people will only hurt new/casual tanks. I can stack resistances and health on my dps and still do a lot of damage. I can easily slot a taunt. It won't stop people from doing this, it will only hurt those newer players.
I don't think changing the difficulty is nessicarily a good thing either as newer players need content that they can do but incentivizing running veteran dungeon running for people in the medium/upper brackets of skill level will. Make vets are worth doing. Increase the minimum CP requirements to 160 (improves the odds of succeeding at the dungeon and ensures all gear dropped is CP 160), increase the number of chances of looting gear (bring this in line with how much gear people can get from running multiple normals in the same period of time. In particular weapons and jewelry as these can be really time consuming to collect), and maybe look at increasing the amount of xp/gold players get as a lot of those characters that are in that medium bracket are looking for quick xp.
Right now the only reasons why people run veteran content is for skins and monster sets. Since monster sets can be transmuted there is little reason to repeatedly do vet dungeons.
The amount of people that can successfully fake tank vet dungeons is significantly less than normal. Once people start seeing they can't do it, they will stop. People will naturally opt for the quickest and easiest route.Legions of Mordor Core
Cold0neFTBs1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Even after leaving ESO 2 years ago, it still amuses me that the topic of Fake Tank/Healer/DPS is still an ongoing issue.Argonian forever2 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »AuraStorm43 wrote: »
DPS is the most important role as everything in ESO rely on raw damage to complete your goals.
The game should reflect this.
Well, the game certainly does cater to DPS....but "raw damage" is not really needed to complete most vet DLC dungeons(aside from maybe vLoM and maybe one or two others) most any of them can be completed with 20k DPS(each DPS) just fine....higher damage certainly makes things faster and easier and allows you to skip mechs, but that is all(not talking hard modes, just vet DLC non-HM). Some fights really high DPS actually becomes a problem(though those are few and far between, but the Nereid boss in vDOM for instance...really high DPS means the tank has to handle 3 stone watchers, the boss, and the frost atro all at once...easy to make a mistake and die under those circumstances, or not have a chance/not notice yet another watcher spawning that takes out some group member...for no death runs there I have had to ask DPS to actually tone it down for that fight)
Anyway, the problem with this attitude that DPS is the most important role is that if that is the case...you don't need tanks or healers at all, after all, raw damage handles all problems and accomplishes all goals right? Damage is of course an important role...but dead DPS deal no damage. A DPS that deals 20k and survives is far preferable to one that deals 60k but dies all the time.
For a pre-made group I can run VASTLY different gear and skills than I do for a pug. With a pre-made I can actually focus on purely tanking and wear sets like Alkosh or Yoln, Powerful Assault, whatever. The healer will be good and be able to help keep me alive, the DPS will be high and my sets and buffs will boost their damage significantly. For a pug its a completely different story...first, I have to wear sets that ensure I survive...and the next consideration is adding damage...because in a pug my buffs won't do much to help their damage and its better to add some of my own(sets/skills always set to change at the press of a button depending on what I observe)
In the end, I see all these people complaining about pug groups, whether its fake tanks, fake DPS, fake healers or whatever...it leads me to wonder why they queue up at all? I mean, are there that many people who run this game solo? Everyone has a friends list...mine is full and I constantly have to remove people from it that I haven't played with in forever, I have 5 guilds...all these people are always looking for people to run pledges or trials, etc. I don't go out of my way to keep my guild slots full or to add people to my friends list but its pretty easy for me to find a group to run pledges/random dungeons with just by asking...regardless of what role I am playing that day...I do mainly tank, but sometimes I will DPS, or rarely heal. When I pug...I just roll the dice and accept whatever group I get, sometimes its high DPS and a smooth fast run, sometimes its low DPS and I have to swap sets/skills to add to the DPS or the heals but its really all the same to me. I actually enjoy the adaptation required. Pug groups are not always(barely ever) ideal and I don't think that is ever going to change regardless of any "solutions" they implement. The more restrictions you add, the smaller the pool of players and the longer the queue times.Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....before that it wasn't uncommon to see many more hybrid builds in an average pug who didn't spec as glass cannon DPS, or tank, or healer, but who ran builds with aspects of all 3(similar to what you see in vMA builds...or rather what you saw when vMA came out...now its just a pure damage burn for most who run through there). The whole role system as defined by ZOS on the group finder screen is very loose and leaves much to the imagination...its only players that have shoehorned people into specific types of builds and have expectations of those who queue as a given role.
I guess it comes down to what it always has...the group finder will give you all kinds of random groups...some good, some bad, some that fill their roles, some that do not. I don't think there is any way to regulate it effectively. The solution of course is simple and one that people dont want to hear: Make a pre-made with your friends who you can talk with beforehand to make sure they understand whatever expectations you have for your group. Want to take in 4 DPS? Premade. Want to take in 4 tanks for some reason? Premade. Want to take in 1 healer and 3 DPS? Premade. Want to queue up through group finder? Take your chances and be ready to adjust to whatever you get.
This is not true. Group Finder has a role selection, which has the same icon for Tanking as the taunts. And the content is designed to have a tank.
Go do Vet Depths of Malatar without a proper tank and tell us if ESO does not have a strict design that expect a tank.
Oh yes, vDOM certainly requires a tank...but name a single dungeon AT LAUNCH that did...oh wait, you cant, because at launch there was no such rigid idea. Yes, there were "roles" but all that was expected is that someone was healing, someone was taunting, and that someone was doing damage. No one cared who did what. At launch you didn't need to spec as a pure tank for anything...it wasn't until Craglorn and its trials came along that you needed a dedicated tank...until that point, you could run any type of hybrid you wanted as long as you were taunting, you were tanking. I can't tell you how many sorc "tanks" were in groups I joined that were tanking in bathrobes and doing just as much damage as the others in the group.Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....
ESO has always had a group finder tool. It has gone through many changes but it has always been a thing. Here's an article from a couple of months after release:
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/955
And the video from the article:
https://youtu.be/vUYFFvZogN8?t=8
Sure...but no one ever used it until group finder as we know it came out. It was all zone chat pugging...usually the zone the dungeon you were wanting to run was located...in fact, I remember standing around the entrance to Fungal Grotto way back when and waiting for people to show up to form a group that way...no one cared if you were a tank or a DPS or a healer....they just wanted 4 people to run the dungeon.
This is, again, not true at all. Before all the power creep, several dungeons on vet and hard mode required a proper tank taunting for most groups. DPS and Healers could be easily one shot by several bosses on the base game dungeons pre-One Tamriel.
This is just another fallacy.
Aside from Selene(who can one shot a tank still occasionally...she is more of a dodging mech than a tanking mech even now) name one boss in base game that required a tank even back then. I played prior to One Tamriel(One Tamriel isnt even early days like I am talking about anyway, I mean shortly after launch), some dungeons were certainly easier with a tank(BCII, WSI, COH II etc) but they could certainly be done without one...I know, I was still DPSing at the time and often did them without a real tank....back when we still had veteran ranks...say what you will, but the role system was certainly not nearly as rigid as players have made it since....without group finder you weren't required to select a role and as such, if you had a tank it was because you had specifically asked for one....many dungeons you didn't bother asking for one because they were in short supply then too and if you could do a dungeon without one, you often did.Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....before that it wasn't uncommon to see many more hybrid builds in an average pug who didn't spec as glass cannon DPS, or tank, or healer, but who ran builds with aspects of all 3(similar to what you see in vMA builds...or rather what you saw when vMA came out...now its just a pure damage burn for most who run through there). The whole role system as defined by ZOS on the group finder screen is very loose and leaves much to the imagination...its only players that have shoehorned people into specific types of builds and have expectations of those who queue as a given role.
I guess it comes down to what it always has...the group finder will give you all kinds of random groups...some good, some bad, some that fill their roles, some that do not. I don't think there is any way to regulate it effectively. The solution of course is simple and one that people dont want to hear: Make a pre-made with your friends who you can talk with beforehand to make sure they understand whatever expectations you have for your group. Want to take in 4 DPS? Premade. Want to take in 4 tanks for some reason? Premade. Want to take in 1 healer and 3 DPS? Premade. Want to queue up through group finder? Take your chances and be ready to adjust to whatever you get.
This is not true. Group Finder has a role selection, which has the same icon for Tanking as the taunts. And the content is designed to have a tank.
Go do Vet Depths of Malatar without a proper tank and tell us if ESO does not have a strict design that expect a tank.
Oh yes, vDOM certainly requires a tank...but name a single dungeon AT LAUNCH that did...oh wait, you cant, because at launch there was no such rigid idea. Yes, there were "roles" but all that was expected is that someone was healing, someone was taunting, and that someone was doing damage. No one cared who did what. At launch you didn't need to spec as a pure tank for anything...it wasn't until Craglorn and its trials came along that you needed a dedicated tank...until that point, you could run any type of hybrid you wanted as long as you were taunting, you were tanking. I can't tell you how many sorc "tanks" were in groups I joined that were tanking in bathrobes and doing just as much damage as the others in the group.Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....
ESO has always had a group finder tool. It has gone through many changes but it has always been a thing. Here's an article from a couple of months after release:
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/955
And the video from the article:https://youtu.be/vUYFFvZogN8?t=8
Sure...but no one ever used it until group finder as we know it came out. It was all zone chat pugging...usually the zone the dungeon you were wanting to run was located...in fact, I remember standing around the entrance to Fungal Grotto way back when and waiting for people to show up to form a group that way...no one cared if you were a tank or a DPS or a healer....they just wanted 4 people to run the dungeon.
This game has always had a trinity system regardless of whether you decided to ignore that or not.
The whole fake tanking thing is not a feature of build flexibility it's simply a feature of overpowered end game players doing PUGs for content that is trivial to them, that they can easily solo, because the daily PUG XP rewards are the same for any content they do so they PUG a normal dungeon that is way below their capability to get their "chore" over and done with as quickly as possible.
You then get some noob wannabes who see this happening and figure that if they can fake tank so can he. This is the bulk of the fake tanks in normal PUGs these days: not the OP CP 810 decked out in 3 full end-game sets who needs no one else but is in a group only because that's what the daily requires and can easily carry everyone else. The majority of fakes are the wannabe queue jumpers who do it only to get a shorter wait and can't even carry themselves much less the rest of the group.
Anything else said about fake tanking or fake healing is utter BS.
It wasn't me ignoring a trinity system...it was the fact that as an average player at the time, roles were never even explained. Period. The result is that everyone ignored the "trinity" for the most part and just ran whatever group they had. Of course, the better players and guilds of the time would slowly teach the classic trinity to their members....but it was and remains a mostly player imposed system....ZOS has gone along with it in the form of slowly introducing harder and harder hitting ads and bosses, but the role system has certainly grown more rigid over time for whatever reason. Power at the cost of versatility.
What really baffles me about fake tanks(those who do not perform the minimum of taunting and battlefield control) is why they bother to queue at all aside from the random dungeon. I mean...they are perfectly able to solo these dungeons...why saddle yourself with a group that might kick you at the last boss? You don't need a group to complete the pledge after all. Of course...I know exactly why they queue...they queue in the hopes that the other group members will pull some of the aggro off themselves....its far slower to solo a dungeon because you have to spend more resources staying alive.
"Can be done without a tank" is NOT the issue here.
Almost all dungeons now can possible be done without a tank.
This is not an excuse for fake tanks using Group Finder.
GF has a role selection. The tank role selection expects a taunt. If the dungeon can or cannot be done without a tank is not up for discussion. A player that queues as a fake take is breaking the rules and being selfish, costing other people time.
It is as simple as that.
My point is simply that if you are taunting and controlling the battlefield and staying alive, you are tanking...for people who queue as a tank and dont do that...kick them.0 -
AuraStorm43✭✭✭✭✭
20k is not good enough for most dlc vetsGrandchamp1989 wrote: »AuraStorm43 wrote: »Almost as big of an issue as fake tanks are the barely above 300 cp’s who que for vet dlc’s and hit like a wet noodle
I honestly think anything past horns of the reach should be locked to 500 cp minimum
I can not count how many times I've played with cp 810 who struggled to break 15k
CP isn't an indication of skill, it's an indication of potential.
For many people they never try to reach their character's potential.
a higher CP lvl limit would also limit tanks and healers from joining vet DLC, and those are already in extremely short supply.
You can be a competent vet DLC tank at cp 300
you can be a competent vet dlc healer at cp 300
DPS is a bit more tricky but you absolutely can break 20k by cp300 despite lacking cp points if you got the proper gear/monster helmet and rotations.
Someone made the decision to let DPS player show how far they've progressed their damage by doing a parse and I agree with this.
DPS is the most important role as everything in ESO rely on raw damage to complete your goals.
The game should reflect this.
0 -
ForeverJenn✭✭✭Fake tank. Fake healer. Fake dps. That's why real tanks don't do PuGs. Too many trash players that will kick you if you simply ask a question.Edited by ForeverJenn on October 22, 2020 4:46PM0
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AuraStorm43 wrote: »
20k is not good enough for most dlc vetsGrandchamp1989 wrote: »AuraStorm43 wrote: »Almost as big of an issue as fake tanks are the barely above 300 cp’s who que for vet dlc’s and hit like a wet noodle
I honestly think anything past horns of the reach should be locked to 500 cp minimum
I can not count how many times I've played with cp 810 who struggled to break 15k
CP isn't an indication of skill, it's an indication of potential.
For many people they never try to reach their character's potential.
a higher CP lvl limit would also limit tanks and healers from joining vet DLC, and those are already in extremely short supply.
You can be a competent vet DLC tank at cp 300
you can be a competent vet dlc healer at cp 300
DPS is a bit more tricky but you absolutely can break 20k by cp300 despite lacking cp points if you got the proper gear/monster helmet and rotations.
Someone made the decision to let DPS player show how far they've progressed their damage by doing a parse and I agree with this.
DPS is the most important role as everything in ESO rely on raw damage to complete your goals.
The game should reflect this.
If the group times their ultimate abilities and bursts skillfully they can probably manage it. I'm not going to lie though, a lot of the DLC dungeons do have pretty demanding DPS race mechanics. I personally wouldn't go into one without at least 20k. They love to throw these at you toward the end of long boss fight too just so you can fail at the last minute and have to start all over again. It's pretty sadistic.Edited by Jeremy on October 22, 2020 7:35PM0 -
MirandaSharp✭✭✭✭If the group times their ultimate abilities and bursts skillfully they can probably manage it. I'm not going to lie though, a lot of the DLC dungeons do have pretty demanding DPS race mechanics. I personally wouldn't go into one without at least 20k. They love to throw these at you toward the end of long boss fight too just so you can fail at the last minute and have to start all over again. It's pretty sadistic.
Icereach comes to mind..Edited by MirandaSharp on October 22, 2020 7:42PM2 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭AuraStorm43 wrote: »
20k is not good enough for most dlc vetsGrandchamp1989 wrote: »AuraStorm43 wrote: »Almost as big of an issue as fake tanks are the barely above 300 cp’s who que for vet dlc’s and hit like a wet noodle
I honestly think anything past horns of the reach should be locked to 500 cp minimum
I can not count how many times I've played with cp 810 who struggled to break 15k
CP isn't an indication of skill, it's an indication of potential.
For many people they never try to reach their character's potential.
a higher CP lvl limit would also limit tanks and healers from joining vet DLC, and those are already in extremely short supply.
You can be a competent vet DLC tank at cp 300
you can be a competent vet dlc healer at cp 300
DPS is a bit more tricky but you absolutely can break 20k by cp300 despite lacking cp points if you got the proper gear/monster helmet and rotations.
Someone made the decision to let DPS player show how far they've progressed their damage by doing a parse and I agree with this.
DPS is the most important role as everything in ESO rely on raw damage to complete your goals.
The game should reflect this.
Depends on what you mean by "good enough" I have pugged the following vet DLC dungeons with group DPS of 50k or less(aka each DPS doing about 20k):
vRoM
vCoS
vICP
vWGT
vFV
vIR
vFL
vSCP
vMHK
vMoS
vDoM
vUG
vMGF
vCT
vSG
The ONLY one I know for certain you need more than that is vLoM. This is not to say pugging these with lower DPS is always easy...only that it certainly is possible and that the lower the DPS, the better the group has to work together to follow mechanics. This is not to say that you can do HM, but you most certainly CAN do these dungeons with 20k DPS just fine if you work together and follow mechs. Any higher DPS makes it easier for sure, but its not actually required. I mean, I know, DPS love to do 100k DPS single target and burn everything into the ground, doing so is a measure of skill and practice. Hell, even tanking I like to see what I can do to push my pitiful DPS higher.0 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭There is a lot of talk about low DPS, but let me tell you as someone who, for the last 2 years, basically mostly PUG-tanked Vet dungeons for pledges, including vDLCs in 3 classes (DK, NB and Necro): this is not as big of a problem as fake tanks.
If I tank all vet pledges in one week, I'll be in 21 groups. Most of those groups will have more than enough DPS to finish every dungeon, even the vDLC ones (notable exceptions are vMHK and vFV).
In one week, I maybe had to give up 2 or at most 3 groups after explaining mechanics and still not having enough DPS. Most weeks I could complete every single pledge without quitting a group due to low DPS.
Now I am doing the same, but on DPS. Only vet dungeons.
Almost 1/5 to 1/4 of my runs have a fake tank. It is almost every other day. Every 2 days or so, one run is ruined by a fake tank.
People that fake tank DO NOT just do it on normal. They DO NOT just do it on base game dungeons. These last couple of days I had fake takes in vet Icereach and vet Scalecaller Peak. Both times, as expected, we couldn't finish.
Let's not pretend that people that are still learning to DPS and queue as DPS is the same kind of problem as people that queue as fake tanks.
When you join a random group, you expect some healer / tank / dps will be bad. That is ok. It is a whole different matter when people intentionally cheat the system with a fake role.
And again, this DOES NOT happen just with normals. Just queue for vets consistently. You are all but guaranteed to get a fake take for a vet pledge more than once a week.3 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is a lot of talk about low DPS, but let me tell you as someone who, for the last 2 years, basically mostly PUG-tanked Vet dungeons for pledges, including vDLCs in 3 classes (DK, NB and Necro): this is not as big of a problem as fake tanks.
If I tank all vet pledges in one week, I'll be in 21 groups. Most of those groups will have more than enough DPS to finish every dungeon, even the vDLC ones (notable exceptions are vMHK and vFV).
In one week, I maybe had to give up 2 or at most 3 groups after explaining mechanics and still not having enough DPS. Most weeks I could complete every single pledge without quitting a group due to low DPS.
Now I am doing the same, but on DPS. Only vet dungeons.
Almost 1/5 to 1/4 of my runs have a fake tank. It is almost every other day. Every 2 days or so, one run is ruined by a fake tank.
People that fake tank DO NOT just do it on normal. They DO NOT just do it on base game dungeons. These last couple of days I had fake takes in vet Icereach and vet Scalecaller Peak. Both times, as expected, we couldn't finish.
Let's not pretend that people that are still learning to DPS and queue as DPS is the same kind of problem as people that queue as fake tanks.
When you join a random group, you expect some healer / tank / dps will be bad. That is ok. It is a whole different matter when people intentionally cheat the system with a fake role.
And again, this DOES NOT happen just with normals. Just queue for vets consistently. You are all but guaranteed to get a fake take for a vet pledge more than once a week.
I will agree with this post...at least the parts I can verify(I rarely pug as a DPS, and when I do, its almost always on normal because I am not very good at DPS). I do find that when pugging as a tank, I generally have better experiences with groups in vDLC dungeons vs base game dungeons though.
Knowing the intent behind the multi-role changes they implemented though, I will state it now. There is no change that ZOS can make that will stop or even reduce fake tanking, people cand and will find a way around it to skip the queue time.
The common theme in ALL of this is that the queue time is the leading cause of fake tanks...and more specifically the role system imposed on players. I understand many(maybe even most) people would prefer to run in a classic trinity group....but here is a potential solution to the fake tank problem: Change the way the queue is setup...when queueing as a DPS say that you get but into a pool with 1 tank, 1 healer, and 6 DPS(just an example) the first 4 in get their conventional group and off they go. Now you have 4 DPS in the queue. At this point the client should ask the question(to the first 4 in queue) "sub-optimal grouping available, accept, or wait for optimal? estimated time 13 minutes" or something to that effect...if they all accept, they get thrown into a group with 4 DPS and off they go...if one doesnt and 3 do then the 3 are put into a sub-optimal queue and the 1 stays in the optimal only queue....then another healer drops into the queue....and they are immediatley asked: "sub-optimal grouping available, accept, or wait for optimal? estimated time 9 minutes" at which point the healer can decide what kind of group they want to run with.
Essentially the queue system would split people into 2 queues with the answer to that question...sub-optimal queue would always take the first 4 people regardless of selected role, whereas optimal would always take the first tank, healer, and 2 DPS. The difference here is that you get a choice after you see the estimated wait time as to whether you want to take your chances with a sub-optimal or wait for an optimal. With a system like this there would be zero reason to fake-tank because fake-tanks would select DPS as role and always opt for a sub-optimal group. This would also have the side effect of lengthening queue times for true tanks, taking away any incentive to queue as a fake tank.1 -
PaddyVu✭✭✭✭Disagree ! When i play normal dungeon for daily transmute crystal,i do play as real tank (galen + yoln + crusher + tremo,full of support team) ,when the first boss is killed and total group dps is below 15k (i'm doing 4k as tank already) ( using combat metrix to check), i instant switch to dps/tank thank to dressing room, now i just solo entire dungeon using vampire stage 4 and skip all mobs and let everyone report me. Well who care? It's just ****ing normal dungeon and i'm here for 1 crystal,as long as i complete it. Who care the other? Beside if i keep that real tank,it will take like 30 mins to complete a normal dungeon while i can solo it in 5 mins. Skip dungeon is very good, they dont have to fight those mobs,just wipe near the boss and revive, 2-3 mins saved. Why do they want to killing stupid adds that give nothing ( except mech require to open door ) ?Edited by PaddyVu on October 25, 2020 4:21PM0 -
omnidoh✭✭✭Tanks:
Pay the complainers no mind.
If they Vote-Kick you, just re-queue.
The time lost is theirs, as your re-queue time will be nearly instant and they will have to wait.
If you can "Fake" Tank and still complete the dungeon in less time with a PUG that doesnt vote-kick you, then your time lost will be minimal.
There will always be those who complain instead of taking action.2 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭Tanks:
Pay the complainers no mind.
If they Vote-Kick you, just re-queue.
The time lost is theirs, as your re-queue time will be nearly instant and they will have to wait.
If you can "Fake" Tank and still complete the dungeon in less time with a PUG that doesnt vote-kick you, then your time lost will be minimal.
There will always be those who complain instead of taking action.
ZOS: pay attention to this post.
This is why we need a better system to punish/prevent those kind of players.7 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Milli_Rabbit wrote: »This practice needs to stop. If you are a DPS and you hate the queue wait times, find friends or become a real tank. It is not okay to queue as a tank when you are actually a DPS. Now, you might say, "But Milli, its just a normal". Yea, and you didn't bring a taunt nor can you survive for more than 1 second of a boss fight.
Let me make this clear. A DPS CAN tank. If you equip a taunt like Inner Rage or even Pierce Armor, you can tank if you are taunting the boss. You are doing the role of tank in that case. If you are surviving, you are doing the role well for a normal dungeon. You can also DPS, taunt, and survive. "What?! No way!" Yea way, man. Yea way.
So, before you queue up as a tank. Ask yourself: Do I have a taunt? And can I survive this? Because if you can't, your team will hate you and likely kick you.
zos needs to prevent this from happening. to tank in a group dungeon pug, you MUST be a tank. they can fix it. and what ya gonna do if the dps queues up with a friend? cant kick. you are gonna have to leave.
It can be annoying when friends queue up together to protect people who fake roles.
This happened to me today actually. Had a "healer" in name only who spent the whole dungeon shooting a bow. I think I went through 50 soul stones raising people.1 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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This, now its an major difference between someone who slot an taunt and tank an normal dungeon as they can solo it.There is a lot of talk about low DPS, but let me tell you as someone who, for the last 2 years, basically mostly PUG-tanked Vet dungeons for pledges, including vDLCs in 3 classes (DK, NB and Necro): this is not as big of a problem as fake tanks.
If I tank all vet pledges in one week, I'll be in 21 groups. Most of those groups will have more than enough DPS to finish every dungeon, even the vDLC ones (notable exceptions are vMHK and vFV).
In one week, I maybe had to give up 2 or at most 3 groups after explaining mechanics and still not having enough DPS. Most weeks I could complete every single pledge without quitting a group due to low DPS.
Now I am doing the same, but on DPS. Only vet dungeons.
Almost 1/5 to 1/4 of my runs have a fake tank. It is almost every other day. Every 2 days or so, one run is ruined by a fake tank.
People that fake tank DO NOT just do it on normal. They DO NOT just do it on base game dungeons. These last couple of days I had fake takes in vet Icereach and vet Scalecaller Peak. Both times, as expected, we couldn't finish.
Let's not pretend that people that are still learning to DPS and queue as DPS is the same kind of problem as people that queue as fake tanks.
When you join a random group, you expect some healer / tank / dps will be bad. That is ok. It is a whole different matter when people intentionally cheat the system with a fake role.
And again, this DOES NOT happen just with normals. Just queue for vets consistently. You are all but guaranteed to get a fake take for a vet pledge more than once a week.
Compared to some who fake tank harder vet into dlc who not only need an real tank but an good tank who know the mechanics.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree. I don't even care if it's the easiest dungeon in the game. If the rest of us had to wait in a long queue to get in, and you get in instantly due to faking your role - you're getting kicked.
If you can't do an "easy" dungeon with a fake tank or not one at all that doesn't necessarily needs one, I'm sorry to break it to you but it's a [snip] issue on the dps and healers role.
[Edited to remove Baiting]
Umm, a fake tank is not a tank. It is why they are called fake tanks. They do not have a taunt or never uses it.
I do not use the GF to find a group as I have never needed to since it is so easy to form my own group or hop into one a guildmate is forming. However, I used to queue solo as a tank or healer to help out the GF. Last time I queued as a healer I got a fake tank who was also a really bad DPS as I out damage the entire group as the healer. Not only did we have no deaths other than easy avoidable one-shot mechanics.
The point is, we did have deaths to avoidable one-shot mechanics in a very easy vet dungeon. The fake tank was not sharp enough to more out of the well-telegraphed PBAoE that one-shots any DPS that is not blocking. It would be one thing if it happened only once and they learned from their error but it happened each time the PBAoE happened. I ended up not rezing them anymore as it was a waste of time.0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
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It never happens that the actual DPS that respect the system wait 30-40 minutes in queue and then can't complete the dungeon because it requires a tank and someone faked it, right?
I bet you the vast majority of the DPS that use the system correctly would prefer waiting a few more minutes to get a proper tank then to roll the dice with a fake one to get in a few minutes faster.
I think this is a very good point.
Mostly because it's happened to me. More than once.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis1 -
CrashTest✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just add a roleless queue like BGs so anyone who doesn't need or want the standard three-role group for dungeons can use that instead.1 -
KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭Just add a roleless queue like BGs so anyone who doesn't need or want the standard three-role group for dungeons can use that instead.
likly wouldnt work it isnt only about to have no tank in group its mostly done cause of the way to high waiting time in queue and a roleless queue would be used by less guys... so would take longer so the "fake" tanks would still group in the old queue cause its faster
and btw a few years ago we was able to just flag as all roles so that would be kinda role less0 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just add a roleless queue like BGs so anyone who doesn't need or want the standard three-role group for dungeons can use that instead.
likly wouldnt work it isnt only about to have no tank in group its mostly done cause of the way to high waiting time in queue and a roleless queue would be used by less guys... so would take longer so the "fake" tanks would still group in the old queue cause its faster
and btw a few years ago we was able to just flag as all roles so that would be kinda role less
It might work. You aren't waiting for specific roles, so as long as at least 4 people queue up, the group goes in. If the groups continually fail, like in vDLC dungeons, people will stop queuing for random vet so that might cause delays.0 -
KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭Just add a roleless queue like BGs so anyone who doesn't need or want the standard three-role group for dungeons can use that instead.
likly wouldnt work it isnt only about to have no tank in group its mostly done cause of the way to high waiting time in queue and a roleless queue would be used by less guys... so would take longer so the "fake" tanks would still group in the old queue cause its faster
and btw a few years ago we was able to just flag as all roles so that would be kinda role less
It might work. You aren't waiting for specific roles, so as long as at least 4 people queue up, the group goes in. If the groups continually fail, like in vDLC dungeons, people will stop queuing for random vet so that might cause delays.
yes likly ur right. still cant understand the guys doing random vet with fake tanks it has a high cahnce of failing ... but normal i understand u can carry normal solo with a lvl 3 char so i cant understand people blaming others for speeding up a normal run0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭Just add a roleless queue like BGs so anyone who doesn't need or want the standard three-role group for dungeons can use that instead.
likly wouldnt work it isnt only about to have no tank in group its mostly done cause of the way to high waiting time in queue and a roleless queue would be used by less guys... so would take longer so the "fake" tanks would still group in the old queue cause its faster
and btw a few years ago we was able to just flag as all roles so that would be kinda role less
It might work. You aren't waiting for specific roles, so as long as at least 4 people queue up, the group goes in. If the groups continually fail, like in vDLC dungeons, people will stop queuing for random vet so that might cause delays.
yes likly ur right. still cant understand the guys doing random vet with fake tanks it has a high cahnce of failing ... but normal i understand u can carry normal solo with a lvl 3 char so i cant understand people blaming others for speeding up a normal run
Even in normal fake tanks up to 98% ain´t able to carry anything. What is seen in vet is the direct outcome on what is happening in norm dungeons - fake tanks willl always push their luck.
It doesn´t matter, which level of dungeon it happen, people are still affected by it, doesn´´t matter it it´s vet or normal
To say it´s more "ok" in normal can´t be taken seriouse because people are still getting affected.1 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just add a roleless queue like BGs so anyone who doesn't need or want the standard three-role group for dungeons can use that instead.
likly wouldnt work it isnt only about to have no tank in group its mostly done cause of the way to high waiting time in queue and a roleless queue would be used by less guys... so would take longer so the "fake" tanks would still group in the old queue cause its faster
and btw a few years ago we was able to just flag as all roles so that would be kinda role less
It might work. You aren't waiting for specific roles, so as long as at least 4 people queue up, the group goes in. If the groups continually fail, like in vDLC dungeons, people will stop queuing for random vet so that might cause delays.
yes likly ur right. still cant understand the guys doing random vet with fake tanks it has a high cahnce of failing ... but normal i understand u can carry normal solo with a lvl 3 char so i cant understand people blaming others for speeding up a normal run
This is why I said to split the queues AFTER they are asked if they want an optimal or sub-optimal group and provided with estimated wait times. It would lengthen the optimal group queue time for tanks....so no reason to fake tank, and shorten the queue time for role-less group DPS...so fake tanks would just choose sub-optimal and wouldn't bother to set their role as tank anymore.
Some form of queue splitting is the only fair way to solve the problem. Period.Edited by josiahva on October 27, 2020 2:10PM0 -
hexentb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Milli_Rabbit wrote: »This practice needs to stop. If you are a DPS and you hate the queue wait times, find friends or become a real tank. It is not okay to queue as a tank when you are actually a DPS. Now, you might say, "But Milli, its just a normal". Yea, and you didn't bring a taunt nor can you survive for more than 1 second of a boss fight.
Let me make this clear. A DPS CAN tank. If you equip a taunt like Inner Rage or even Pierce Armor, you can tank if you are taunting the boss. You are doing the role of tank in that case. If you are surviving, you are doing the role well for a normal dungeon. You can also DPS, taunt, and survive. "What?! No way!" Yea way, man. Yea way.
So, before you queue up as a tank. Ask yourself: Do I have a taunt? And can I survive this? Because if you can't, your team will hate you and likely kick you.
I 100% agree and it annoys the hell out of me too. About to go find that one guy who is offended and left a strongly worded reply about how mean you are for expecting him to be able to do the role he signed up for. Theres always at least one...usually more.2 -
hexentb16_ESO✭✭✭✭
To be fair, this isn't always the tanks fault. When DPS pulls a group, a tank has to re-aggro them one-by-one. Which might take a while since everyone is running everywhere to stay alive, and mobs also run to the furthest players. Worst is, DPS actually think runs go faster when they pull groups.If a tank fails to do *their job they're exposed very early on in the run....vote to kick as I'm sure the entire group would approve since running for your life left and right gets old fast!
I just let them die. I expect players I run with to use half a brain cell to understand that you only pull what you can handle. I'll only pull the extra tough enemies off them.3 -
hexentb16_ESO✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »Milli_Rabbit wrote: »This practice needs to stop. If you are a DPS and you hate the queue wait times, find friends or become a real tank. It is not okay to queue as a tank when you are actually a DPS. Now, you might say, "But Milli, its just a normal". Yea, and you didn't bring a taunt nor can you survive for more than 1 second of a boss fight.
Let me make this clear. A DPS CAN tank. If you equip a taunt like Inner Rage or even Pierce Armor, you can tank if you are taunting the boss. You are doing the role of tank in that case. If you are surviving, you are doing the role well for a normal dungeon. You can also DPS, taunt, and survive. "What?! No way!" Yea way, man. Yea way.
So, before you queue up as a tank. Ask yourself: Do I have a taunt? And can I survive this? Because if you can't, your team will hate you and likely kick you.
TBH, the bigger issue with the dungeon finder isn't fake tanks - its fake DPS. Especially in normal content, 4 DPS can simply burn through, usually without any issues. Even in harder content, a mag DPS with a resto staff back barred can keep people alive more or less. But DPS hitting for a combined 8-10k dps is the reason why many real tanks don't que, hence why there are so many fake tanks.
That's just the way the game is. TBH, the only way they could solve this system is if they tossed the role system out the window and made dungeons no harder than delves, but then they simply wouldn't be any fun to play. Just gotta take the good with the bad, and if you want to not deal with the shennanigans of the dungeon finder, make a pre-made group from friends or guildmates, or do an LFG in zone and try to be better coordinated with the people you run with.
Dps is the go to role for people who can't do any of them well. Though they're still annoying I'd rather have bad dps than a bad healer or tank. All my characters have good enough self heals that I don't need to worry about getting heals but its really nice to have someone to keep the other squishier teammates alive.0 -
hexentb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Swordancer wrote: »`I do play as a fake tank with random groups but I always using taunt skill becouse playing normal non DLC with my character is just too easy. All you need to do is taunt enemy and do DPS. No one ever complaind for that with me. Im not using any special armor or anything else, i just know when to shield, block or dodge. I only switch my tank build (same character) with normal DLC dunegons (only the hard one) and real tank for any veteran dungeon if Im playing with random people.
You just need to be sure that you do not suck as DD and thats it.
There was a time I wasn't using taunt but I was warning people when I joined that Im not a tank and we can handle that without any problems with me. I just warning that im rushing and I don't care if somone do not agree on this, I leave so they can find somone else.
Now I just play as tank with powerful DD and it is so much faster to complete dunegon when you got low CP people in your team.
BTW. You won't change people style of playing. Group finder sucks and you should complain about that for the most of the time. The right group finder with correct filters can reduce the issue to the minimum
Back before Thrassian Stranglers were nerfed into the ground I ran full sload stacks, no taunt, and spammed my sweeps. Some called me a fake tank but my dps was so massive that no one could pull any aggro off me without using taunts.
He's a normal tank now since the nerf though.0 -
Daggerfell0929✭✭✭Fake Tanking is OK for Normal dungeons. I fake tank, do like 70-%80% of the groups DPS, we clear it really fast. If anything I am doing the people leveling their toons a favor.
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