Fake Tanking

AyaDark

svendf wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who complain here, I'm sorry that I don't have the same moral standards as you but to me it's just a game. If you really need a real tank in base game dungeon then it's YOU problem. I know it may sound selfish but so are you demanding that I have to be a real tank so you can hump every boss for 10 min. You are the reason why there isnt enough real tanks.

90% of the pugs to less than 10k dps and base game dungeons dont teach them anything. Fake tanks bring extra dps, lower EVERYONE'S queue times and often carry the group. So everyone wins, pls drop that moral bs.

Everyone needs to read this guy’s post. It sums it up perfectly. Fake tanking leads to faster queue times, faster dungeons, and higher group dps, often increasing it by a factor of 2 or more. That being said the only dungeons where a fake tank really doesn’t belong unless they throw on some tank specific gear might be SOME dlc dungeons. But honestly almost any self healing dos can solo most of these normal dungeons, let alone stomp them with three supporting teammembers.

No they can not solo those dungeons. You wanna create a sort of believe that all can solo these dungeons, when it alll comes to the show me, around 1-2 % can do that and even struggle, they even go down alot of times. So what´s the point ?

Don´t post things on forums, which isn´t true for most in ESO

Be those 2% who can.

Why ? And even if I could or can, that´s not for the forums to know. What combinations I run or how isn´t important.

What is important, is stopping fake tanking and let dds learn to run a dungeon with a tank and healer, so they can focus on dps and be omfort in their role as dps and not gear up as a hybrid kind of dps tank for survival and low dps.

Stop fake DD then, to let more Tanks normally play randoms and learn how to play.

The fake tank problem is - " no tanks ", no tanks - why ?
Because of fake DDs.
If no fake DDs it will be more tanks, who enjoy the game => no fake tanks, because normal time looking for normal tank.

Fake tanks can create a situation, where they in easy dungeons burn everything and pushing new playeer´s into a carry situation, They don´t learn anything and expect a carry everythime more or les.

That you don´t find tanks or not that many in normal dungeons, who do PUG. Boils down how they are treaded, by dds, who are not use to them and really haven´t learned, how to team with a tank. Then you have those, who wanna show off and doing the tanks job much harder.

I have been luckly so fare (crossing my fingers), i believe. Eventhough yesterday I had a dd, who thought he was gods gift to ESO - trying to show off.

When I started out in ESO as a DD. I was rather hard on tanks and not to mention healers. It´s a maturing thing I believe and growing, with ESO and learn.

It´s about back tracking, what did I do wrong ? Why did I do as I did ? With a fake tank at your side only two things can haappen. 1: Create havoc 2: You don´t learn anything you get carried.

In both cases dungeons can be cleared or not and lead to people leave, disband or even multible wipes.

If fake tank burns everything, what is it different if one of DDs burns everything ? It is just what DD must do ! And what DD must learn to play DD.

You can pass faster than ? Get more level and gear and try something harder than.
If it is to often. If it isnot, that is even not a problem.

Or you ask DD not to dps as example to make it slower ?

DD plsdo no DPS, tank, do not tank. Healer you heal to much. Do not heal! Make this run harder to learn more, or how does it look like ???

Sarannah

AyaDark wrote: »

Those who blame others for their own fails, always play bad.
Those who did not, start to play better.
Those who did not give up already solo content, where you blame some one for fake tanking.

It is not there mistake or some thing they do bad.

It is just your own fail.

Blaming the victims?...

Also, terrible DPS barely ever happens. And if it happens, it is usually the tank's fault. Overall fake tanks are responsible for bad DPS, since they do not allow DPS to even learn their roles. As they have infected normal dungeons like a plague, not allowing others to play the part they signed up for.

Fake tanks/heals should make their own groups, not mess up other player's time. As those players have actually queue'd for a preset role dungeon. Maybe changing the daily random dungeon bonus to a first dungeon complete of the day bonus, no matter how you ended up in there, fixes some of the fake roles. As they wouldn't need to queue the groupfinder for their daily bonus experience.

Globally spoken, this is a discussion of ethics. Some queue for their actual role, and some don't. Therefor they are cheating the system. The only reason they do it is because they can get away with it, and get all the benefit from it. I also see this game as just a game, that does not mean I let my morals slide. Not even if I can/could get away with it.

@josiahva Alright, I believe you! And yeah I agree that tanking becomes extremely hard if DPS pulls first. In those cases I would wait a few seconds before taunting, unless it is a group with great DPS where mobs just roll over and die almost instantly. Also, with those specs I would consider you a real tank!(even if it is some sort of a hybrid)

AyaDark

Sarannah wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Those who blame others for their own fails, always play bad.
Those who did not, start to play better.
Those who did not give up already solo content, where you blame some one for fake tanking.

It is not there mistake or some thing they do bad.

It is just your own fail.

Blaming the victims?...

Also, terrible DPS barely ever happens. And if it happens, it is usually the tank's fault. Overall fake tanks are responsible for bad DPS, since they do not allow DPS to even learn their roles. As they have infected normal dungeons like a plague, not allowing others to play the part they signed up for.

Fake tanks/heals should make their own groups, not mess up other player's time. As those players have actually queue'd for a preset role dungeon. Maybe changing the daily random dungeon bonus to a first dungeon complete of the day bonus, no matter how you ended up in there, fixes some of the fake roles. As they wouldn't need to queue the groupfinder for their daily bonus experience.

Globally spoken, this is a discussion of ethics. Some queue for their actual role, and some don't. Therefor they are cheating the system. The only reason they do it is because they can get away with it, and get all the benefit from it. I also see this game as just a game, that does not mean I let my morals slide. Not even if I can/could get away with it.

@josiahva Alright, I believe you! And yeah I agree that tanking becomes extremely hard if DPS pulls first. In those cases I would wait a few seconds before taunting, unless it is a group with great DPS where mobs just roll over and die almost instantly. Also, with those specs I would consider you a real tank!(even if it is some sort of a hybrid)

For me tank boss and do DPS is not a problem. Yes i do not have 50k+ dps in this condition in vDLC, but 25k+ dps isnot as bad.

If some DD do no DPS, do not kill ads, do not support party, what makes him so special ? It is fake DD. Why do they not form there own group than ? And let others go randoms well ?

Do nothing => get nothing.

Really honest as i can see it.

And i newer have problems with view like that.

Protossyder

AyaDark wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

Don't worry, you are free to leave the group if you wish to do so. Also, most of the times the randoms write something into the group chat, they want to know how we do so much dps and how they can improve their own. And we gladly take a minute of our time and give them a few tips and answer their questions.

It's funny how most people commenting here are trying to decrease toxicity by leaving the group/kicking from group and putting people on the ignore list (basically cancel any communication). You want to learn mechanics? Just ask and we'll explain it to you.

So are you. Differancce I play a role. I know it´s not eesy play as real tank.

It is actually. I really like tanking, but DD is my main role. Prove me wrong, but players that started as DDs make better tanks in my opinion. Only a true DD knows what a DD needs

And players who start as tanks, make better DDs

No. When you have all the knowledge about LA weaving, AC, Rotation, etc. you will definitely make a better tank. Your buff/debuff uptimes will be higher, since you are used to it. You will rather avoid dmg instead of permablocking or wasting ressources on healing yourself since you are used to be a squishy DD.
When you started as tank on the other hand, you will have to learn everything that makes a good DD from scratch. Of course I can't speak for everyone, but my experience has proven this statement to be true many times.

Protossyder

Sarannah wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Those who blame others for their own fails, always play bad.
Those who did not, start to play better.
Those who did not give up already solo content, where you blame some one for fake tanking.

It is not there mistake or some thing they do bad.

It is just your own fail.

Blaming the victims?...

Also, terrible DPS barely ever happens. And if it happens, it is usually the tank's fault. Overall fake tanks are responsible for bad DPS, since they do not allow DPS to even learn their roles. As they have infected normal dungeons like a plague, not allowing others to play the part they signed up for.

(...)

lmao, you couldn't be more wrong... I think your understanding of terrible dps is very different from what the majority thinks it is.
Let's say I can buff the groups DPS by about 40% with everything taunted and all my debuffs and buffs ticking... That'll increase the group's dps from 20k to 28k. Sorry, but that's nothing.. I will rather join on my DD and up the DPS from 20k to 80k on average (depends on the fight of course, but more is definitely possible)
The game has changed so much since release, and the tank-healer-2-DDs setup is simply outdated. There are tons of guides and builds online and many players that are willing to share their experience and knowledge, so don't worry about some randoms not being able to learn their role.

Chapilliams

Agree with this.

If you queue as a fake tank, keep yourself alive, live up to your role, burn things and don't be burden on the rest of the team.
- The same with fake healers. If you can't burn the *** out of the dungeon and you die, then please don't queue up fake.

Kurat

These kind of threads are pointless. No one gonna change their way of thinking. People will keep doing what they want. I'm gonna keep fake tanking because it makes sense for everything other than vet dlcs and people with moral standards, well... good luck with the queue and hopefully you get a real tank and have a blast.

josiahva

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....before that it wasn't uncommon to see many more hybrid builds in an average pug who didn't spec as glass cannon DPS, or tank, or healer, but who ran builds with aspects of all 3(similar to what you see in vMA builds...or rather what you saw when vMA came out...now its just a pure damage burn for most who run through there). The whole role system as defined by ZOS on the group finder screen is very loose and leaves much to the imagination...its only players that have shoehorned people into specific types of builds and have expectations of those who queue as a given role.

I guess it comes down to what it always has...the group finder will give you all kinds of random groups...some good, some bad, some that fill their roles, some that do not. I don't think there is any way to regulate it effectively. The solution of course is simple and one that people dont want to hear: Make a pre-made with your friends who you can talk with beforehand to make sure they understand whatever expectations you have for your group. Want to take in 4 DPS? Premade. Want to take in 4 tanks for some reason? Premade. Want to take in 1 healer and 3 DPS? Premade. Want to queue up through group finder? Take your chances and be ready to adjust to whatever you get.

Iselin

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....

ESO has always had a group finder tool. It has gone through many changes but it has always been a thing. Here's an article from a couple of months after release:

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/955

And the video from the article:

https://youtu.be/vUYFFvZogN8?t=8

Calm_Fury

Kurat wrote: »

These kind of threads are pointless. No one gonna change their way of thinking. People will keep doing what they want. I'm gonna keep fake tanking because it makes sense for everything other than vet dlcs and people with moral standards, well... good luck with the queue and hopefully you get a real tank and have a blast.

And that is why ZOS needs to implement a system for that. I'd love a system kick people that do this and preventing them from using the Group Finder for a few days, then when someone says "I'm gonna keep fake tanking", they would get some kicks and wouldn't be able to use Group Finder for several days, making people that actually follow the rules better.

Also, people that fake tank do NOT just fake tank normals. I posted yesterday that I was doing vIcereach for pledge and had a fake tank. A couple of days back, it was vet Moongrave Fane. Both times I waited in queue and had my time wasted because we couldn't complete the dungeon.

Calm_Fury

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....before that it wasn't uncommon to see many more hybrid builds in an average pug who didn't spec as glass cannon DPS, or tank, or healer, but who ran builds with aspects of all 3(similar to what you see in vMA builds...or rather what you saw when vMA came out...now its just a pure damage burn for most who run through there). The whole role system as defined by ZOS on the group finder screen is very loose and leaves much to the imagination...its only players that have shoehorned people into specific types of builds and have expectations of those who queue as a given role.

I guess it comes down to what it always has...the group finder will give you all kinds of random groups...some good, some bad, some that fill their roles, some that do not. I don't think there is any way to regulate it effectively. The solution of course is simple and one that people dont want to hear: Make a pre-made with your friends who you can talk with beforehand to make sure they understand whatever expectations you have for your group. Want to take in 4 DPS? Premade. Want to take in 4 tanks for some reason? Premade. Want to take in 1 healer and 3 DPS? Premade. Want to queue up through group finder? Take your chances and be ready to adjust to whatever you get.

This is not true. Group Finder has a role selection, which has the same icon for Tanking as the taunts. And the content is designed to have a tank.

Go do Vet Depths of Malatar without a proper tank and tell us if ESO does not have a strict design that expect a tank.

Pevey

For those who say they “immediately” kick a fake tank in a normal dungeon:

How do you decide the tank is fake? What makes you so sure?

Do you base it solely on health? Do you base it on weapon equipped?

If so, go ahead and kick my 20k health warden after you’ve been sitting in queue for 30 minutes. My queue will pop again immediately. You will wait ages for your “real” tank.

Meanwhile, I will be in another dungeon, keeping taunt with inner beast, keeping the boss in one place, doing usually about 50% of the group damage at least, not being a jerk and leaving trash behind me still alive to kill teammates, probably running bow/bow (GASP!) or maybe in a dlc then 1H&S on front bar, bow on back. Oh, and not needing a healer at all. Can do this with 3 dps.

Normal dungeons can be tanked by any dps who slots a taunt and has some experience. How you can decide if someone meets those 2 criteria “immediately” is beyond me.

Sooooo...

Kick if you want. Totally your call. Suit yourself.

LashanW

Pevey wrote: »

How do you decide the tank is fake? What makes you so sure?

Do you base it solely on health? Do you base it on weapon equipped?

First hint is their health pool. Second hint is if mobs seem totally uncontrolled. Third hint is if the bosses are running after random people (unless it's a part of mechanic).

Pevey wrote: »

Normal dungeons can be tanked by any dps who slots a taunt and has some experience. How you can decide if someone meets those 2 criteria “immediately” is beyond me.

A fake tank is someone who queued for the tank role and never use a taunt.

Met one of those guys in normal unhallowed grave yesterday. 3 max CP players and a 50CP new player (he was a DD), also had an actual healer. I was a magcro and the fake tank was a magblade (a class that has an insane amount of self heals in their dps rotation so able to face tank pretty much anything in normal, with the occasional dodge roll)), but he never used a taunt (even if I asked him to do so after sometime in the dungeon. He just reacted "omg no need for tanks in normal, just stack and burn!"). Sometimes big adds and bosses chased the newbie and poor fellow panicked and ran for his life in boss arena. Luckily the healer was on point and kept the guy alive. I don't think the new guy had a good time. I ran out of patience at kiln boss when we wiped because the boss wasn't brought to the glowing sigil (boss was just running everywhere after random people). I slotted undaunted taunt and "tanked" the rest of the dungeon myself after that.

AyaDark

Protossyder wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

Don't worry, you are free to leave the group if you wish to do so. Also, most of the times the randoms write something into the group chat, they want to know how we do so much dps and how they can improve their own. And we gladly take a minute of our time and give them a few tips and answer their questions.

It's funny how most people commenting here are trying to decrease toxicity by leaving the group/kicking from group and putting people on the ignore list (basically cancel any communication). You want to learn mechanics? Just ask and we'll explain it to you.

So are you. Differancce I play a role. I know it´s not eesy play as real tank.

It is actually. I really like tanking, but DD is my main role. Prove me wrong, but players that started as DDs make better tanks in my opinion. Only a true DD knows what a DD needs

And players who start as tanks, make better DDs

No. When you have all the knowledge about LA weaving, AC, Rotation, etc. you will definitely make a better tank. Your buff/debuff uptimes will be higher, since you are used to it. You will rather avoid dmg instead of permablocking or wasting ressources on healing yourself since you are used to be a squishy DD.
When you started as tank on the other hand, you will have to learn everything that makes a good DD from scratch. Of course I can't speak for everyone, but my experience has proven this statement to be true many times.

On tank you know attacks and when you do DD you will not die.

Light attack weaving is to overrated.

I do not use it - 50 k + dps on 3 kk dummy all self only. In my primary character build.

The same with LA weaving in another build with LA.

All la weaving can give you = +2 k dps. If you know how all works and how avoid damage lose to not use it.

And you know what mobs, ads is a problem for tanks, do better priority on targets, know how and where you can support a tank.

When you are DD and make tank, you know how DD do not like to reput AOEs, the same for tank=> DD.

So you just start try stuck mobes on some point and less run.

AyaDark

I do not care who tank something if he do and can.Is it DD, or tank with 10 k HP in not ordinary build.

Is it fake or not, but if he do not => it can be kicked.

If fake tank do OK, and not fake do not, I better take fake one, but who do his job.

svendf

You who fake should be confronted with an hp check. You would have two choices 1. getting kicked 2: or build for role and se, what you are made of.

Many fake tanks are low dps looking for a carrie and then you have those, who wanna show of and need attention.

I do believe in ZOS that they will make some checks to remove fakes for the sake of the community.

Until then start building tanks and healers so you have all three roles. I did that and it´s a win win. You will get alot of knowledge and have alot of fun.

josiahva

Calm_Fury wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....before that it wasn't uncommon to see many more hybrid builds in an average pug who didn't spec as glass cannon DPS, or tank, or healer, but who ran builds with aspects of all 3(similar to what you see in vMA builds...or rather what you saw when vMA came out...now its just a pure damage burn for most who run through there). The whole role system as defined by ZOS on the group finder screen is very loose and leaves much to the imagination...its only players that have shoehorned people into specific types of builds and have expectations of those who queue as a given role.

I guess it comes down to what it always has...the group finder will give you all kinds of random groups...some good, some bad, some that fill their roles, some that do not. I don't think there is any way to regulate it effectively. The solution of course is simple and one that people dont want to hear: Make a pre-made with your friends who you can talk with beforehand to make sure they understand whatever expectations you have for your group. Want to take in 4 DPS? Premade. Want to take in 4 tanks for some reason? Premade. Want to take in 1 healer and 3 DPS? Premade. Want to queue up through group finder? Take your chances and be ready to adjust to whatever you get.

This is not true. Group Finder has a role selection, which has the same icon for Tanking as the taunts. And the content is designed to have a tank.

Go do Vet Depths of Malatar without a proper tank and tell us if ESO does not have a strict design that expect a tank.

Oh yes, vDOM certainly requires a tank...but name a single dungeon AT LAUNCH that did...oh wait, you cant, because at launch there was no such rigid idea. Yes, there were "roles" but all that was expected is that someone was healing, someone was taunting, and that someone was doing damage. No one cared who did what. At launch you didn't need to spec as a pure tank for anything...it wasn't until Craglorn and its trials came along that you needed a dedicated tank...until that point, you could run any type of hybrid you wanted as long as you were taunting, you were tanking. I can't tell you how many sorc "tanks" were in groups I joined that were tanking in bathrobes and doing just as much damage as the others in the group.

Iselin wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....

ESO has always had a group finder tool. It has gone through many changes but it has always been a thing. Here's an article from a couple of months after release:

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/955

And the video from the article:

https://youtu.be/vUYFFvZogN8?t=8

Sure...but no one ever used it until group finder as we know it came out. It was all zone chat pugging...usually the zone the dungeon you were wanting to run was located...in fact, I remember standing around the entrance to Fungal Grotto way back when and waiting for people to show up to form a group that way...no one cared if you were a tank or a DPS or a healer....they just wanted 4 people to run the dungeon.

SidraWillowsky

Pevey wrote: »

For those who say they “immediately” kick a fake tank in a normal dungeon:

How do you decide the tank is fake? What makes you so sure?

Do you base it solely on health? Do you base it on weapon equipped?

If so, go ahead and kick my 20k health warden after you’ve been sitting in queue for 30 minutes. My queue will pop again immediately. You will wait ages for your “real” tank.

Do you have a taunt on your Warden? Do you blaze ahead of the group? Do you snark at people in the group who call you on your 20k health?

If your answers are no, yes, and yes, then I'm gonna try to kick you pretty quickly. ESPECIALLY the last one- I queued into vCoH II with a fake tank, and when a CP 350 player called them on it, they told them to stfu til they got to CP 810. If you're going to try to get around the DPS queue, at least don't be a spectacular jerk to your group who asks you about it.

Look... if you can perform tank duties, stay alive, and stay with the group, people will likely still be annoyed but will deal as long as they can reasonably finish. The real jerk move is shooting ahead of your group and acting like a pure DPS.

josiahva

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

For those who say they “immediately” kick a fake tank in a normal dungeon:

How do you decide the tank is fake? What makes you so sure?

Do you base it solely on health? Do you base it on weapon equipped?

If so, go ahead and kick my 20k health warden after you’ve been sitting in queue for 30 minutes. My queue will pop again immediately. You will wait ages for your “real” tank.

Do you have a taunt on your Warden? Do you blaze ahead of the group? Do you snark at people in the group who call you on your 20k health?

If your answers are no, yes, and yes, then I'm gonna try to kick you pretty quickly. ESPECIALLY the last one- I queued into vCoH II with a fake tank, and when a CP 350 player called them on it, they told them to stfu til they got to CP 810. If you're going to try to get around the DPS queue, at least don't be a spectacular jerk to your group who asks you about it.

Look... if you can perform tank duties, stay alive, and stay with the group, people will likely still be annoyed but will deal as long as they can reasonably finish. The real jerk move is shooting ahead of your group and acting like a pure DPS.

Genuinely curious as to why you would be annoyed if they are tanking? I am as disgusted as anyone when someone queues as a tank and doesn't taunt and control the battlefield...but if they taunt and maintain at least decent battlefield control, I am thrilled if they add a little DPS to the equation as well. Its only a problem when ads are running all over the place and the boss is aggroed on the DPS or healer. As a main tank I know that you don't always have the resources to pull every single add in with chains or the like all at once...but if they control the main group, a few stragglers are no big deal. I no longer assume they aren't a tank if they are running around with 25k HP and a bow.

I remember one time I built a pure magicka warden tank(was trying it out) using Alteration Mastery, Seducer(I forget what monster helm) building for magicka regen so I could spam heals while tanking...ended up with some 2400+ regen, 28k health, 15k stam, maybe 25-30kk magicka...anyway, the entire dungeon I was spamming inner fire, the horrible warden CC, using frozen gate to pull ads, and healing the entire time between. At the end of the dungeon the DPS said something along the lines of: "Not bad for not having a tank" :::facepalm::: I guess he didn't see the constant radiate synergies popping up on his screen?

The point is that people are so used to seeing a specific type of tank(S&B with 40k health) that they don't recognize that other types are possible and maybe even viable(That Magicka Warden tank was not viable, it was fine for base game vet dungeons, but not DLCs...and boy oh boy would Elden Hollow II just wreck it....turns out when you get fear spammed because you are taunting everything it takes a lot more than 15k stam to keep enough stam to break free all the time) That tank/healer hybrid was actually great for most base game dungeons and was great for 3 DPS runs...but as in everything there is a tradeoff to be made....building outside the box limits the content you can do with it. All of it is relative to the content being run.

Iselin

josiahva wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....before that it wasn't uncommon to see many more hybrid builds in an average pug who didn't spec as glass cannon DPS, or tank, or healer, but who ran builds with aspects of all 3(similar to what you see in vMA builds...or rather what you saw when vMA came out...now its just a pure damage burn for most who run through there). The whole role system as defined by ZOS on the group finder screen is very loose and leaves much to the imagination...its only players that have shoehorned people into specific types of builds and have expectations of those who queue as a given role.

I guess it comes down to what it always has...the group finder will give you all kinds of random groups...some good, some bad, some that fill their roles, some that do not. I don't think there is any way to regulate it effectively. The solution of course is simple and one that people dont want to hear: Make a pre-made with your friends who you can talk with beforehand to make sure they understand whatever expectations you have for your group. Want to take in 4 DPS? Premade. Want to take in 4 tanks for some reason? Premade. Want to take in 1 healer and 3 DPS? Premade. Want to queue up through group finder? Take your chances and be ready to adjust to whatever you get.

This is not true. Group Finder has a role selection, which has the same icon for Tanking as the taunts. And the content is designed to have a tank.

Go do Vet Depths of Malatar without a proper tank and tell us if ESO does not have a strict design that expect a tank.

Oh yes, vDOM certainly requires a tank...but name a single dungeon AT LAUNCH that did...oh wait, you cant, because at launch there was no such rigid idea. Yes, there were "roles" but all that was expected is that someone was healing, someone was taunting, and that someone was doing damage. No one cared who did what. At launch you didn't need to spec as a pure tank for anything...it wasn't until Craglorn and its trials came along that you needed a dedicated tank...until that point, you could run any type of hybrid you wanted as long as you were taunting, you were tanking. I can't tell you how many sorc "tanks" were in groups I joined that were tanking in bathrobes and doing just as much damage as the others in the group.

Iselin wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....

ESO has always had a group finder tool. It has gone through many changes but it has always been a thing. Here's an article from a couple of months after release:

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/955

And the video from the article:

https://youtu.be/vUYFFvZogN8?t=8

Sure...but no one ever used it until group finder as we know it came out. It was all zone chat pugging...usually the zone the dungeon you were wanting to run was located...in fact, I remember standing around the entrance to Fungal Grotto way back when and waiting for people to show up to form a group that way...no one cared if you were a tank or a DPS or a healer....they just wanted 4 people to run the dungeon.

This game has always had a trinity system regardless of whether you decided to ignore that or not.

The whole fake tanking thing is not a feature of build flexibility it's simply a feature of overpowered end game players doing PUGs for content that is trivial to them, that they can easily solo, because the daily PUG XP rewards are the same for any content they do so they PUG a normal dungeon that is way below their capability to get their "chore" over and done with as quickly as possible.

You then get some noob wannabes who see this happening and figure that if they can fake tank so can he. This is the bulk of the fake tanks in normal PUGs these days: not the OP CP 810 decked out in 3 full end-game sets who needs no one else but is in a group only because that's what the daily requires and can easily carry everyone else. The majority of fakes are the wannabe queue jumpers who do it only to get a shorter wait and can't even carry themselves much less the rest of the group.

Anything else said about fake tanking or fake healing is utter BS.

zvavi

Iselin wrote: »

This is the bulk of the fake tanks in normal PUGs these days: not the OP CP 810 decked out in 3 full end-game sets who needs no one else but is in a group only because that's what the daily requires and can easily carry everyone else. The majority of fakes are the wannabe queue jumpers who do it only to get a shorter wait and can't even carry themselves much less the rest of the group.

Tbh ye...

Calm_Fury

Pevey wrote: »

For those who say they “immediately” kick a fake tank in a normal dungeon:

How do you decide the tank is fake? What makes you so sure?

Do you base it solely on health? Do you base it on weapon equipped?

If so, go ahead and kick my 20k health warden after you’ve been sitting in queue for 30 minutes. My queue will pop again immediately. You will wait ages for your “real” tank.

Meanwhile, I will be in another dungeon, keeping taunt with inner beast, keeping the boss in one place, doing usually about 50% of the group damage at least, not being a jerk and leaving trash behind me still alive to kill teammates, probably running bow/bow (GASP!) or maybe in a dlc then 1H&S on front bar, bow on back. Oh, and not needing a healer at all. Can do this with 3 dps.

Normal dungeons can be tanked by any dps who slots a taunt and has some experience. How you can decide if someone meets those 2 criteria “immediately” is beyond me.

Sooooo...

Kick if you want. Totally your call. Suit yourself.

It is very easy. Just look at bosses and big mobs. If they are running around and consistently attacking DPSs and healers, that means nobody is taunting and, therefore, there is no real tank.

We already discussed this. Tanking just means taunting and holding aggro on bosses and bigger mobs. You can do it with 10k health if you can without dying.

Calm_Fury

josiahva wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....before that it wasn't uncommon to see many more hybrid builds in an average pug who didn't spec as glass cannon DPS, or tank, or healer, but who ran builds with aspects of all 3(similar to what you see in vMA builds...or rather what you saw when vMA came out...now its just a pure damage burn for most who run through there). The whole role system as defined by ZOS on the group finder screen is very loose and leaves much to the imagination...its only players that have shoehorned people into specific types of builds and have expectations of those who queue as a given role.

I guess it comes down to what it always has...the group finder will give you all kinds of random groups...some good, some bad, some that fill their roles, some that do not. I don't think there is any way to regulate it effectively. The solution of course is simple and one that people dont want to hear: Make a pre-made with your friends who you can talk with beforehand to make sure they understand whatever expectations you have for your group. Want to take in 4 DPS? Premade. Want to take in 4 tanks for some reason? Premade. Want to take in 1 healer and 3 DPS? Premade. Want to queue up through group finder? Take your chances and be ready to adjust to whatever you get.

This is not true. Group Finder has a role selection, which has the same icon for Tanking as the taunts. And the content is designed to have a tank.

Go do Vet Depths of Malatar without a proper tank and tell us if ESO does not have a strict design that expect a tank.

Oh yes, vDOM certainly requires a tank...but name a single dungeon AT LAUNCH that did...oh wait, you cant, because at launch there was no such rigid idea. Yes, there were "roles" but all that was expected is that someone was healing, someone was taunting, and that someone was doing damage. No one cared who did what. At launch you didn't need to spec as a pure tank for anything...it wasn't until Craglorn and its trials came along that you needed a dedicated tank...until that point, you could run any type of hybrid you wanted as long as you were taunting, you were tanking. I can't tell you how many sorc "tanks" were in groups I joined that were tanking in bathrobes and doing just as much damage as the others in the group.

Iselin wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....

ESO has always had a group finder tool. It has gone through many changes but it has always been a thing. Here's an article from a couple of months after release:

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/955

And the video from the article:

https://youtu.be/vUYFFvZogN8?t=8

Sure...but no one ever used it until group finder as we know it came out. It was all zone chat pugging...usually the zone the dungeon you were wanting to run was located...in fact, I remember standing around the entrance to Fungal Grotto way back when and waiting for people to show up to form a group that way...no one cared if you were a tank or a DPS or a healer....they just wanted 4 people to run the dungeon.

This is, again, not true at all. Before all the power creep, several dungeons on vet and hard mode required a proper tank taunting for most groups. DPS and Healers could be easily one shot by several bosses on the base game dungeons pre-One Tamriel.

This is just another fallacy.

Jeremy

Protossyder wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Those who blame others for their own fails, always play bad.
Those who did not, start to play better.
Those who did not give up already solo content, where you blame some one for fake tanking.

It is not there mistake or some thing they do bad.

It is just your own fail.

Blaming the victims?...

Also, terrible DPS barely ever happens. And if it happens, it is usually the tank's fault. Overall fake tanks are responsible for bad DPS, since they do not allow DPS to even learn their roles. As they have infected normal dungeons like a plague, not allowing others to play the part they signed up for.

(...)

lmao, you couldn't be more wrong... I think your understanding of terrible dps is very different from what the majority thinks it is.
Let's say I can buff the groups DPS by about 40% with everything taunted and all my debuffs and buffs ticking... That'll increase the group's dps from 20k to 28k. Sorry, but that's nothing.. I will rather join on my DD and up the DPS from 20k to 80k on average (depends on the fight of course, but more is definitely possible)
The game has changed so much since release, and the tank-healer-2-DDs setup is simply outdated. There are tons of guides and builds online and many players that are willing to share their experience and knowledge, so don't worry about some randoms not being able to learn their role.

In my experience terrible DPS rarely ever happens as well.

On occasion it does - but I think the real problem here is people just have unrealistic expectations when queuing up for the activity finder. Because if people are expecting players to do 80k DPS on average then they are setting themselves up for some serious disappointment to say the least. Because that's just not a realistic expectation. haha

josiahva

Calm_Fury wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....before that it wasn't uncommon to see many more hybrid builds in an average pug who didn't spec as glass cannon DPS, or tank, or healer, but who ran builds with aspects of all 3(similar to what you see in vMA builds...or rather what you saw when vMA came out...now its just a pure damage burn for most who run through there). The whole role system as defined by ZOS on the group finder screen is very loose and leaves much to the imagination...its only players that have shoehorned people into specific types of builds and have expectations of those who queue as a given role.

I guess it comes down to what it always has...the group finder will give you all kinds of random groups...some good, some bad, some that fill their roles, some that do not. I don't think there is any way to regulate it effectively. The solution of course is simple and one that people dont want to hear: Make a pre-made with your friends who you can talk with beforehand to make sure they understand whatever expectations you have for your group. Want to take in 4 DPS? Premade. Want to take in 4 tanks for some reason? Premade. Want to take in 1 healer and 3 DPS? Premade. Want to queue up through group finder? Take your chances and be ready to adjust to whatever you get.

This is not true. Group Finder has a role selection, which has the same icon for Tanking as the taunts. And the content is designed to have a tank.

Go do Vet Depths of Malatar without a proper tank and tell us if ESO does not have a strict design that expect a tank.

Oh yes, vDOM certainly requires a tank...but name a single dungeon AT LAUNCH that did...oh wait, you cant, because at launch there was no such rigid idea. Yes, there were "roles" but all that was expected is that someone was healing, someone was taunting, and that someone was doing damage. No one cared who did what. At launch you didn't need to spec as a pure tank for anything...it wasn't until Craglorn and its trials came along that you needed a dedicated tank...until that point, you could run any type of hybrid you wanted as long as you were taunting, you were tanking. I can't tell you how many sorc "tanks" were in groups I joined that were tanking in bathrobes and doing just as much damage as the others in the group.

Iselin wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....

ESO has always had a group finder tool. It has gone through many changes but it has always been a thing. Here's an article from a couple of months after release:

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/955

And the video from the article:

https://youtu.be/vUYFFvZogN8?t=8

Sure...but no one ever used it until group finder as we know it came out. It was all zone chat pugging...usually the zone the dungeon you were wanting to run was located...in fact, I remember standing around the entrance to Fungal Grotto way back when and waiting for people to show up to form a group that way...no one cared if you were a tank or a DPS or a healer....they just wanted 4 people to run the dungeon.

This is, again, not true at all. Before all the power creep, several dungeons on vet and hard mode required a proper tank taunting for most groups. DPS and Healers could be easily one shot by several bosses on the base game dungeons pre-One Tamriel.

This is just another fallacy.

Aside from Selene(who can one shot a tank still occasionally...she is more of a dodging mech than a tanking mech even now) name one boss in base game that required a tank even back then. I played prior to One Tamriel(One Tamriel isnt even early days like I am talking about anyway, I mean shortly after launch), some dungeons were certainly easier with a tank(BCII, WSI, COH II etc) but they could certainly be done without one...I know, I was still DPSing at the time and often did them without a real tank....back when we still had veteran ranks...say what you will, but the role system was certainly not nearly as rigid as players have made it since....without group finder you weren't required to select a role and as such, if you had a tank it was because you had specifically asked for one....many dungeons you didn't bother asking for one because they were in short supply then too and if you could do a dungeon without one, you often did.

Iselin wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....before that it wasn't uncommon to see many more hybrid builds in an average pug who didn't spec as glass cannon DPS, or tank, or healer, but who ran builds with aspects of all 3(similar to what you see in vMA builds...or rather what you saw when vMA came out...now its just a pure damage burn for most who run through there). The whole role system as defined by ZOS on the group finder screen is very loose and leaves much to the imagination...its only players that have shoehorned people into specific types of builds and have expectations of those who queue as a given role.

I guess it comes down to what it always has...the group finder will give you all kinds of random groups...some good, some bad, some that fill their roles, some that do not. I don't think there is any way to regulate it effectively. The solution of course is simple and one that people dont want to hear: Make a pre-made with your friends who you can talk with beforehand to make sure they understand whatever expectations you have for your group. Want to take in 4 DPS? Premade. Want to take in 4 tanks for some reason? Premade. Want to take in 1 healer and 3 DPS? Premade. Want to queue up through group finder? Take your chances and be ready to adjust to whatever you get.

This is not true. Group Finder has a role selection, which has the same icon for Tanking as the taunts. And the content is designed to have a tank.

Go do Vet Depths of Malatar without a proper tank and tell us if ESO does not have a strict design that expect a tank.

Oh yes, vDOM certainly requires a tank...but name a single dungeon AT LAUNCH that did...oh wait, you cant, because at launch there was no such rigid idea. Yes, there were "roles" but all that was expected is that someone was healing, someone was taunting, and that someone was doing damage. No one cared who did what. At launch you didn't need to spec as a pure tank for anything...it wasn't until Craglorn and its trials came along that you needed a dedicated tank...until that point, you could run any type of hybrid you wanted as long as you were taunting, you were tanking. I can't tell you how many sorc "tanks" were in groups I joined that were tanking in bathrobes and doing just as much damage as the others in the group.

Iselin wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....

ESO has always had a group finder tool. It has gone through many changes but it has always been a thing. Here's an article from a couple of months after release:

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/955

And the video from the article:

https://youtu.be/vUYFFvZogN8?t=8

Sure...but no one ever used it until group finder as we know it came out. It was all zone chat pugging...usually the zone the dungeon you were wanting to run was located...in fact, I remember standing around the entrance to Fungal Grotto way back when and waiting for people to show up to form a group that way...no one cared if you were a tank or a DPS or a healer....they just wanted 4 people to run the dungeon.

This game has always had a trinity system regardless of whether you decided to ignore that or not.

The whole fake tanking thing is not a feature of build flexibility it's simply a feature of overpowered end game players doing PUGs for content that is trivial to them, that they can easily solo, because the daily PUG XP rewards are the same for any content they do so they PUG a normal dungeon that is way below their capability to get their "chore" over and done with as quickly as possible.

You then get some noob wannabes who see this happening and figure that if they can fake tank so can he. This is the bulk of the fake tanks in normal PUGs these days: not the OP CP 810 decked out in 3 full end-game sets who needs no one else but is in a group only because that's what the daily requires and can easily carry everyone else. The majority of fakes are the wannabe queue jumpers who do it only to get a shorter wait and can't even carry themselves much less the rest of the group.

Anything else said about fake tanking or fake healing is utter BS.

It wasn't me ignoring a trinity system...it was the fact that as an average player at the time, roles were never even explained. Period. The result is that everyone ignored the "trinity" for the most part and just ran whatever group they had. Of course, the better players and guilds of the time would slowly teach the classic trinity to their members....but it was and remains a mostly player imposed system....ZOS has gone along with it in the form of slowly introducing harder and harder hitting ads and bosses, but the role system has certainly grown more rigid over time for whatever reason. Power at the cost of versatility.

What really baffles me about fake tanks(those who do not perform the minimum of taunting and battlefield control) is why they bother to queue at all aside from the random dungeon. I mean...they are perfectly able to solo these dungeons...why saddle yourself with a group that might kick you at the last boss? You don't need a group to complete the pledge after all. Of course...I know exactly why they queue...they queue in the hopes that the other group members will pull some of the aggro off themselves....its far slower to solo a dungeon because you have to spend more resources staying alive.

AuraStorm43

Almost as big of an issue as fake tanks are the barely above 300 cp’s who que for vet dlc’s and hit like a wet noodle

I honestly think anything past horns of the reach should be locked to 500 cp minimum

volkeswagon

Well a friend of mine were farming a normal dungeon for a lead last night and we needed two more people cause no guildmates would join. she told me to queue as a tank even though I was a dps. We didn't need a tank and we finished it several times with no issues. So in cases like mine I don't see a problem with it.

Calm_Fury

josiahva wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....before that it wasn't uncommon to see many more hybrid builds in an average pug who didn't spec as glass cannon DPS, or tank, or healer, but who ran builds with aspects of all 3(similar to what you see in vMA builds...or rather what you saw when vMA came out...now its just a pure damage burn for most who run through there). The whole role system as defined by ZOS on the group finder screen is very loose and leaves much to the imagination...its only players that have shoehorned people into specific types of builds and have expectations of those who queue as a given role.

I guess it comes down to what it always has...the group finder will give you all kinds of random groups...some good, some bad, some that fill their roles, some that do not. I don't think there is any way to regulate it effectively. The solution of course is simple and one that people dont want to hear: Make a pre-made with your friends who you can talk with beforehand to make sure they understand whatever expectations you have for your group. Want to take in 4 DPS? Premade. Want to take in 4 tanks for some reason? Premade. Want to take in 1 healer and 3 DPS? Premade. Want to queue up through group finder? Take your chances and be ready to adjust to whatever you get.

This is not true. Group Finder has a role selection, which has the same icon for Tanking as the taunts. And the content is designed to have a tank.

Go do Vet Depths of Malatar without a proper tank and tell us if ESO does not have a strict design that expect a tank.

Oh yes, vDOM certainly requires a tank...but name a single dungeon AT LAUNCH that did...oh wait, you cant, because at launch there was no such rigid idea. Yes, there were "roles" but all that was expected is that someone was healing, someone was taunting, and that someone was doing damage. No one cared who did what. At launch you didn't need to spec as a pure tank for anything...it wasn't until Craglorn and its trials came along that you needed a dedicated tank...until that point, you could run any type of hybrid you wanted as long as you were taunting, you were tanking. I can't tell you how many sorc "tanks" were in groups I joined that were tanking in bathrobes and doing just as much damage as the others in the group.

Iselin wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....

ESO has always had a group finder tool. It has gone through many changes but it has always been a thing. Here's an article from a couple of months after release:

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/955

And the video from the article:

https://youtu.be/vUYFFvZogN8?t=8

Sure...but no one ever used it until group finder as we know it came out. It was all zone chat pugging...usually the zone the dungeon you were wanting to run was located...in fact, I remember standing around the entrance to Fungal Grotto way back when and waiting for people to show up to form a group that way...no one cared if you were a tank or a DPS or a healer....they just wanted 4 people to run the dungeon.

This is, again, not true at all. Before all the power creep, several dungeons on vet and hard mode required a proper tank taunting for most groups. DPS and Healers could be easily one shot by several bosses on the base game dungeons pre-One Tamriel.

This is just another fallacy.

Aside from Selene(who can one shot a tank still occasionally...she is more of a dodging mech than a tanking mech even now) name one boss in base game that required a tank even back then. I played prior to One Tamriel(One Tamriel isnt even early days like I am talking about anyway, I mean shortly after launch), some dungeons were certainly easier with a tank(BCII, WSI, COH II etc) but they could certainly be done without one...I know, I was still DPSing at the time and often did them without a real tank....back when we still had veteran ranks...say what you will, but the role system was certainly not nearly as rigid as players have made it since....without group finder you weren't required to select a role and as such, if you had a tank it was because you had specifically asked for one....many dungeons you didn't bother asking for one because they were in short supply then too and if you could do a dungeon without one, you often did.

Iselin wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....before that it wasn't uncommon to see many more hybrid builds in an average pug who didn't spec as glass cannon DPS, or tank, or healer, but who ran builds with aspects of all 3(similar to what you see in vMA builds...or rather what you saw when vMA came out...now its just a pure damage burn for most who run through there). The whole role system as defined by ZOS on the group finder screen is very loose and leaves much to the imagination...its only players that have shoehorned people into specific types of builds and have expectations of those who queue as a given role.

I guess it comes down to what it always has...the group finder will give you all kinds of random groups...some good, some bad, some that fill their roles, some that do not. I don't think there is any way to regulate it effectively. The solution of course is simple and one that people dont want to hear: Make a pre-made with your friends who you can talk with beforehand to make sure they understand whatever expectations you have for your group. Want to take in 4 DPS? Premade. Want to take in 4 tanks for some reason? Premade. Want to take in 1 healer and 3 DPS? Premade. Want to queue up through group finder? Take your chances and be ready to adjust to whatever you get.

This is not true. Group Finder has a role selection, which has the same icon for Tanking as the taunts. And the content is designed to have a tank.

Go do Vet Depths of Malatar without a proper tank and tell us if ESO does not have a strict design that expect a tank.

Oh yes, vDOM certainly requires a tank...but name a single dungeon AT LAUNCH that did...oh wait, you cant, because at launch there was no such rigid idea. Yes, there were "roles" but all that was expected is that someone was healing, someone was taunting, and that someone was doing damage. No one cared who did what. At launch you didn't need to spec as a pure tank for anything...it wasn't until Craglorn and its trials came along that you needed a dedicated tank...until that point, you could run any type of hybrid you wanted as long as you were taunting, you were tanking. I can't tell you how many sorc "tanks" were in groups I joined that were tanking in bathrobes and doing just as much damage as the others in the group.

Iselin wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Maybe the disconnect here is the whole idea of roles. ESO was never supposed to be a strict role-based game and as you can see, you can build your character to perform any of the traditional roles at need. In fact....back before group finder was a thing, while pug groups might ask for a tank or healer in zone chat for a given dungeon...half the time they just didn't care and would just as happily take whoever they could to fill the group. Roles only became as set in stone as they are after group finder was introduced....

ESO has always had a group finder tool. It has gone through many changes but it has always been a thing. Here's an article from a couple of months after release:

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/955

And the video from the article:

https://youtu.be/vUYFFvZogN8?t=8

Sure...but no one ever used it until group finder as we know it came out. It was all zone chat pugging...usually the zone the dungeon you were wanting to run was located...in fact, I remember standing around the entrance to Fungal Grotto way back when and waiting for people to show up to form a group that way...no one cared if you were a tank or a DPS or a healer....they just wanted 4 people to run the dungeon.

This game has always had a trinity system regardless of whether you decided to ignore that or not.

The whole fake tanking thing is not a feature of build flexibility it's simply a feature of overpowered end game players doing PUGs for content that is trivial to them, that they can easily solo, because the daily PUG XP rewards are the same for any content they do so they PUG a normal dungeon that is way below their capability to get their "chore" over and done with as quickly as possible.

You then get some noob wannabes who see this happening and figure that if they can fake tank so can he. This is the bulk of the fake tanks in normal PUGs these days: not the OP CP 810 decked out in 3 full end-game sets who needs no one else but is in a group only because that's what the daily requires and can easily carry everyone else. The majority of fakes are the wannabe queue jumpers who do it only to get a shorter wait and can't even carry themselves much less the rest of the group.

Anything else said about fake tanking or fake healing is utter BS.

It wasn't me ignoring a trinity system...it was the fact that as an average player at the time, roles were never even explained. Period. The result is that everyone ignored the "trinity" for the most part and just ran whatever group they had. Of course, the better players and guilds of the time would slowly teach the classic trinity to their members....but it was and remains a mostly player imposed system....ZOS has gone along with it in the form of slowly introducing harder and harder hitting ads and bosses, but the role system has certainly grown more rigid over time for whatever reason. Power at the cost of versatility.

What really baffles me about fake tanks(those who do not perform the minimum of taunting and battlefield control) is why they bother to queue at all aside from the random dungeon. I mean...they are perfectly able to solo these dungeons...why saddle yourself with a group that might kick you at the last boss? You don't need a group to complete the pledge after all. Of course...I know exactly why they queue...they queue in the hopes that the other group members will pull some of the aggro off themselves....its far slower to solo a dungeon because you have to spend more resources staying alive.

"Can be done without a tank" is NOT the issue here.

Almost all dungeons now can possible be done without a tank.

This is not an excuse for fake tanks using Group Finder.

GF has a role selection. The tank role selection expects a taunt. If the dungeon can or cannot be done without a tank is not up for discussion. A player that queues as a fake take is breaking the rules and being selfish, costing other people time.

It is as simple as that.

Grandchamp1989

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Almost as big of an issue as fake tanks are the barely above 300 cp’s who que for vet dlc’s and hit like a wet noodle

I honestly think anything past horns of the reach should be locked to 500 cp minimum

I can not count how many times I've played with cp 810 who struggled to break 15k

CP isn't an indication of skill, it's an indication of potential.
For many people they never try to reach their character's potential.

a higher CP lvl limit would also limit tanks and healers from joining vet DLC, and those are already in extremely short supply.

You can be a competent vet DLC tank at cp 300
you can be a competent vet dlc healer at cp 300

DPS is a bit more tricky but you absolutely can break 20k by cp300 despite lacking cp points if you got the proper gear/monster helmet and rotations.

Someone made the decision to let DPS player show how far they've progressed their damage by doing a parse and I agree with this.

DPS is the most important role as everything in ESO rely on raw damage to complete your goals.
The game should reflect this.

AyaDark

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Almost as big of an issue as fake tanks are the barely above 300 cp’s who que for vet dlc’s and hit like a wet noodle

I honestly think anything past horns of the reach should be locked to 500 cp minimum

I can not count how many times I've played with cp 810 who struggled to break 15k

CP isn't an indication of skill, it's an indication of potential.
For many people they never try to reach their character's potential.

a higher CP lvl limit would also limit tanks and healers from joining vet DLC, and those are already in extremely short supply.

You can be a competent vet DLC tank at cp 300
you can be a competent vet dlc healer at cp 300

DPS is a bit more tricky but you absolutely can break 20k by cp300 despite lacking cp points if you got the proper gear/monster helmet and rotations.

Someone made the decision to let DPS player show how far they've progressed their damage by doing a parse and I agree with this.

DPS is the most important role as everything in ESO rely on raw damage to complete your goals.
The game should reflect this.

Dps is not the most important roll. 30 k dps is possible to do on a single button.

But if no damage enemy will not die.

And dd in our days can die from a little wind.

Thats why playing becomes even harder.