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Fake Tanking
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Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »So here is the thing: The learning curve for tanking is a lot flatter on the initial steps then it is with healing or DPS. It seems that fact is only known to actual TANKS. That is why there are not many really good Tanks in ESO! And the few that are out there play with guildies, because everyone in there guild has a high regard for them! That is a social benefit or incentive that DPS or healer dont get. Especially from GF groups.
People dont seem to get that being a tank has only two requirements:
a) dont die and
b) dont let your groupies die.
And that is really not depending on active skills or special equipment. It is all player skill!
By that logic a high DPS that burns away the Mobs and Bosses is a good Tank. Please all see that!
Another aspect is clearly, that a lot of people dont get, that normal dungeons are not difficult! Real tanks are not required in normal Dungeons. They help a lot on some bosses, but required? No...
I have absolutely nothing against 'fake tanking' in normal dungeons. In veteran and hard mode dungeons or trials they dont stand a chance anyway.
Just imagine fake tanks in vet BC2 HM. If Rilis doesnt smite them, the six or so Deadroths will burn them. And this is base game, not even DLC.
I think this is one of a few reasons why we don't have many tanks.
First, the tank learning curve is very steep right from the start. It is much easier to start DPS or start healing dungeons and be somewhat successful then start tanking and achieve the same level of success. This is what makes most people give up.
They start as DPS. They may be horrible DPSs at first, but they still complete several dungeons. They might try healing, be horrible at it, and still complete several vet dungeons. But then they start tanking. Everybody sucks at first, but they see that very quickly they start not being able to complete vet dungeons as a tank, which makes a lot of people give up.
Another huge thing is that tanking is always on the spotlight. A mistake by a tank is more often than not a wipe, which is rarely the case for healers and DPS. So most people just don't feel comfortable with that. Specially in trials.
But again, we are taking the discussion away from the main point because none of that is a valid excuse for ruining other people's runs by fake tanking in group finder.
It doesn't matter if a dungeon requires a tank or not. If you are using GROUP FINDER and queuing as a FAKE TANK, you are breaking the rules of the game and "cheating" your way to get more experience and rewards at other people's expense.
ZOS already punishes people that "fake PvP" to boost AP gains. I don't understand why "fake tanking" to boost XP/Random Rewards doesn't get the same treatment. "fake PvP" is even less aggravating for other players than fake tanking.
Agree with everything you said, but what's fake PvP and how does ZOS punish that?
"Fake PvP" is when people that know each other join different alliances, go to the same campaign, and then one Alliance walks around a keep and let's the other kill them repeatedly. The person that kills gains AP for the kill and then for defending the keep.
In a past event, there was also keep/outpost flipping. Two groups would just capture a keep/outpost/resource, gain the AP, hide, and let another group take it back. Then they traded back and forth.
ZOS has temporarily banned several people in multiple platforms for doing that.2 -
omnidoh✭✭✭
Nah.It doesn't matter if a dungeon requires a tank or not. If you are using GROUP FINDER and queuing as a FAKE TANK, you are breaking the rules of the game and "cheating" your way to get more experience and rewards at other people's expense.
Theres no such thing as a "Fake" Tank.
If I queue as a Tank role and fail to tank effectively, then I am an "ineffective" tank.
*How* I decide to "tank" is my choice.
Someone else in the group want to tank instead?
They are free to go ahead and step up if they like.
It won't impact me in the slightest.
I'll continue to participate however I want to, regardless of whether the group agrees with me or not.
If the group vote-kicks me, I'll just re-queue.
Their loss, not mine.
Until the "Tank" role becomes so critical in dungeons that it is impossible to complete the dungeon without specific requirements; such as an absolute minimum health total, or a taunt skill which will result in guaranteed failure if not used, then players will choose to utilize the dungeon finder for their own purposes, according to their own preferences.
If you want to guarantee a specific outcome with a specific set of expectations, don't rely upon the group finder.
Choose your group and queue as one.
Remember, it's a "Group" finder.
Not a "Group where everyone and everything will match my preconceived expectations" finder.Edited by omnidoh on October 31, 2020 7:04PM7 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭
Nah.It doesn't matter if a dungeon requires a tank or not. If you are using GROUP FINDER and queuing as a FAKE TANK, you are breaking the rules of the game and "cheating" your way to get more experience and rewards at other people's expense.
Theres no such thing as a "Fake" Tank.
If I queue as a Tank role and fail to tank effectively, then I am an "ineffective" tank.
*How* I decide to "tank" is my choice.
Someone else in the group want to tank instead?
They are free to go ahead and step up if they like.
It won't impact me in the slightest.
I'll continue to participate however I want to, regardless of whether the group agrees with me or not.
If the group vote-kicks me, I'll just re-queue.
Their loss, not mine.
Until the "Tank" role becomes so critical in dungeons that it is impossible to complete the dungeon without specific requirements; such as an absolute minimum health total, or a taunt skill which will result in guaranteed failure if not used, then players will choose to utilize the dungeon finder for their own purposes, according to their own preferences.
If you want to guarantee a specific outcome with a specific set of expectations, don't rely upon the group finder.
Choose your group and queue as one.
Remember, it's a "Group" finder.
Not a "Group where everyone and everything will match my preconceived expectations" finder.
This is simply not true. You may want to think that, but it is not true.
Just go to the skills that taunts enemies. They have the very same icon as the role of tank in Group Finder.
Tank has a very clear definition in this game and in group finder and no amount of imagination to justify fake tanking will change that fact.
What you are describing is a group made with your friends, where everyone knows what might happen. The Group Finder is specific: 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 2 DPS. If you queue as tank, you are expected to tank.
Otherwise, as discussed, you are just being selfish, bending the rules and wasting people's time.6 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I have been "fake tanking" on my light cloth, frost staff, undaunted taunt, magicka based templar for 3 days now, not a single death yet.
That being said, the dungeons are vanilla, "I", and normal. lol
THAT being said, I hold better aggro in my pure DPS set, heal better and still have no issues. In fact, I have had my GF queuing as a "fake healer" because I am tanking, healing, and holding 60 to 75% of the DPS. And the lowbies LOVE IT (I truly enjoy helping low level players get a fast run if they want it).
I also apologize at the end of each run for queuing as a fake tank and so far the response has been "no issues" "this was a fun run" and "thank you".
2 -
svendf✭✭✭✭Fake tanks are few seen iin relation to the whole community. Sadly they have a very negative impact on gameplay and community.
Fake tanking have to go away and ZOS know how to do it and it will be easy to do. It dont belong in ESO and therefore I´m sure we will se a solution and an end to fake roles for good.
1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake tanks are few seen iin relation to the whole community. Sadly they have a very negative impact on gameplay and community.
Fake tanking have to go away and ZOS know how to do it and it will be easy to do. It dont belong in ESO and therefore I´m sure we will se a solution and an end to fake roles for good.
Not entirely true. Depends on the content. See my post above yours.2 -
svendf✭✭✭✭Fake tanks are few seen iin relation to the whole community. Sadly they have a very negative impact on gameplay and community.
Fake tanking have to go away and ZOS know how to do it and it will be easy to do. It dont belong in ESO and therefore I´m sure we will se a solution and an end to fake roles for good.
Not entirely true. Depends on the content. See my post above yours.
It is true and it will stop.0 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Any kind of measures to try to stop fake tanking or punishments like some suggesting, is only gonna make queues longer. If they implemented some kind of checks like hp or cant change gear in dungeon etc, alot of REAL tanks would stop using gf. So stop asking Zos to do anything about it. People play as they want and you should be happy that you even get fake tank. If you cant complete normal dungeon without a tank then you may wanna look up some build guides or something or stop using gf.0 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake tanks are few seen iin relation to the whole community. Sadly they have a very negative impact on gameplay and community.
Fake tanking have to go away and ZOS know how to do it and it will be easy to do. It dont belong in ESO and therefore I´m sure we will se a solution and an end to fake roles for good.
Not entirely true. Depends on the content. See my post above yours.
It is true and it will stop.
How can it be true when I can go into a normal dungeon, hold aggro with my DPS build, keep people from dying and not even coming close to dying myself and on top of all of that, act as the primary healer inside of a flawless run?
I have proven that in certain circumstances, queuing as a tank with a DPS build is doable inside of certain normal dungeons.
In fact, some dungeons are infinitely easier than public dungeon bosses or world bosses.
Like I said, it depends on the content.2 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fake tanks are few seen iin relation to the whole community. Sadly they have a very negative impact on gameplay and community.
Fake tanking have to go away and ZOS know how to do it and it will be easy to do. It dont belong in ESO and therefore I´m sure we will se a solution and an end to fake roles for good.
Not entirely true. Depends on the content. See my post above yours.
It is true and it will stop.
How can it be true when I can go into a normal dungeon, hold aggro with my DPS build, keep people from dying and not even coming close to dying myself and on top of all of that, act as the primary healer inside of a flawless run?
I have proven that in certain circumstances, queuing as a tank with a DPS build is doable inside of certain normal dungeons.
In fact, some dungeons are infinitely easier than public dungeon bosses or world bosses.
Like I said, it depends on the content.
... For the sake of argument and reaching actual conclusion, I will say the thing many others did. As long as you hold agro and survive, you are a tank. The problem of people are "tanks" that don't have taunt. What you are doing is not fake tanking, it is tanking, as efficiently as a level 10 can, agro, self heal. In normal dungeon it is tanking.1 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭Fake tanks are few seen iin relation to the whole community. Sadly they have a very negative impact on gameplay and community.
Fake tanking have to go away and ZOS know how to do it and it will be easy to do. It dont belong in ESO and therefore I´m sure we will se a solution and an end to fake roles for good.
Not entirely true. Depends on the content. See my post above yours.
It is true and it will stop.
How can it be true when I can go into a normal dungeon, hold aggro with my DPS build, keep people from dying and not even coming close to dying myself and on top of all of that, act as the primary healer inside of a flawless run?
I have proven that in certain circumstances, queuing as a tank with a DPS build is doable inside of certain normal dungeons.
In fact, some dungeons are infinitely easier than public dungeon bosses or world bosses.
Like I said, it depends on the content.
Because you are completely wrong in your assumption.
You assume people only fake tank on normal. You assume people only fake tank on base dungeons. And you assume every fake take will hold aggro all the time. I also bet you assume you hold aggro all the time when that is 100% not true.
As I said before. Everyone defending fake tanking in this thread only use anecdata from normal base dungeon runs to justify selfish acts.3 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake tanks are few seen iin relation to the whole community. Sadly they have a very negative impact on gameplay and community.
Fake tanking have to go away and ZOS know how to do it and it will be easy to do. It dont belong in ESO and therefore I´m sure we will se a solution and an end to fake roles for good.
Not entirely true. Depends on the content. See my post above yours.
It is true and it will stop.
How can it be true when I can go into a normal dungeon, hold aggro with my DPS build, keep people from dying and not even coming close to dying myself and on top of all of that, act as the primary healer inside of a flawless run?
I have proven that in certain circumstances, queuing as a tank with a DPS build is doable inside of certain normal dungeons.
In fact, some dungeons are infinitely easier than public dungeon bosses or world bosses.
Like I said, it depends on the content.
... For the sake of argument and reaching actual conclusion, I will say the thing many others did. As long as you hold agro and survive, you are a tank. The problem of people are "tanks" that don't have taunt. What you are doing is not fake tanking, it is tanking, as efficiently as a level 10 can, agro, self heal. In normal dungeon it is tanking.
If you read what I said carefully, you will see that I stated I hold aggro BETTER as a pure DPS (because of the low DPS of the lowbies I generally group with).
I have been trying the undaunted taunt, it does not seem to work half the time. Sometimes I have to get in three heavy attacks from a frost staff to get the taunt back. When I DPS, I usually hold all the aggro (due to higher DPS).
So even having a "taunt" is not exactly all its made out to be in some of these cases.2 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Fake tanks are few seen iin relation to the whole community. Sadly they have a very negative impact on gameplay and community.
Fake tanking have to go away and ZOS know how to do it and it will be easy to do. It dont belong in ESO and therefore I´m sure we will se a solution and an end to fake roles for good.
Not entirely true. Depends on the content. See my post above yours.
It is true and it will stop.
How can it be true when I can go into a normal dungeon, hold aggro with my DPS build, keep people from dying and not even coming close to dying myself and on top of all of that, act as the primary healer inside of a flawless run?
I have proven that in certain circumstances, queuing as a tank with a DPS build is doable inside of certain normal dungeons.
In fact, some dungeons are infinitely easier than public dungeon bosses or world bosses.
Like I said, it depends on the content.
Because you are completely wrong in your assumption.
You assume people only fake tank on normal. You assume people only fake tank on base dungeons. And you assume every fake take will hold aggro all the time. I also bet you assume you hold aggro all the time when that is 100% not true.
As I said before. Everyone defending fake tanking in this thread only use anecdata from normal base dungeon runs to justify selfish acts.
No, I am not wrong and I am not assuming. If you read carefully at what I said "IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES", these are things I have tested pretty thoroughly which is the only reason I talk about those points in the first place and secondly there was nothing to assume. I tested it, in game. I am not asserting some made up BS out of my head, I am describing actual results of what was tested.
Again, "fake tanking" ,depending on the circumstance, is not a detriment as it is pointed out in this thread. I am seeing blanket statements saying that its universally bad, but it's not. Like all things, it has it's merit.
Does this mean I think fake tanking works in vets? NO
Does this mean I think fake tanking works in trials? NO
Does this mean I think fake tanking works on ALL world bosses? NO
Does this mean I think fake tanking works in ALL delves? NO
Does this mean I think fake tanking works for any form of content in this game that requires a tank? NO
But there are cases, this I have proven to myself with my build, where a DPS, in DPS gear, in certain content, works perfectly well with no wipes, no deaths, no issues.3 -
Thevampirenight✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Here is a cold hard reality here, many more like to queue up as dps, why? Because people want to kill things as quicky as they can. There is more dps then there is healers or tanks. Without fake tanks or healers as you might call them. Group Finder will be so backlogged.
You queue as a dps and your in for a long wait, queue as a healer or tank and you get instant queue.
What they do need to do is separate the dlc dungeons from the base game ones and make the dlc ones have their own unique random queue. That is independent from base game dungeons only.
Then it won't matter as much. People might care more about fake tanks or healers in more challenging content. But easier content that does not require it. People might not care as much. More dps there is faster they are completed. People can then go onto their next queue or whatever.
So, without a fake role, as people like to call it, you might get 2000 people queued as dps, but only 10 at one time are queueing as healers and for example and 10 as tanks. Just a example. You got more dps waiting for a queue and just by popping in as a healer or a tank, you make that queue go off so much quicker for them.
Lets do the math here.
Each group can have two dps, 1 tank, 1 healer.
Okay you got ten actual tanks and healers and 2000 dps people.
Each group has 2 dps.
That leaves it so you have ten groups.
So 20 dps queued get a dungeon. That is if they did have stricter requirements or checks. Then you have 1980 dps waiting but then more queue up. Back log is longer. But this might force players to actually build for a role just to get a dungeon done. Then they can just switch to their actual builds and then problem continues. Because they want to clear it as fast as possible.
So you got 2000 dps, then you got 400 tanks, 400 hundred healers, 390 of both are fakes. Ten are the real deal in both.
2x 400 = now 800 queues and active dungeons going off. So then you now have 1200 dps waiting. More queue up with fake tanking and healers and even more, get dungeons.
So though it isn't a great example, but people do want to play the way they want to play and they just want to clear the dungeons as quickly as possible. Its a reality that this is a thing and many of these people have played these dungeons so much they just want to get them over with.
At least with the way it is now you can get a dungeon queue. That wouldn't be the case if they put requirements and removed the ability to switch gear or something.
Sure people would adjust to it they would have to, but then you would still see many not doing this because they just want to complete the content as quickly. They might just start forming groups outside the finder to actually do the content and making the finder pointless.Edited by Thevampirenight on November 1, 2020 1:26AMPC NA
Please add Fangs to Vampires.1 -
svendf✭✭✭✭Fake tanks are few seen iin relation to the whole community. Sadly they have a very negative impact on gameplay and community.
Fake tanking have to go away and ZOS know how to do it and it will be easy to do. It dont belong in ESO and therefore I´m sure we will se a solution and an end to fake roles for good.
Not entirely true. Depends on the content. See my post above yours.
It is true and it will stop.
How can it be true when I can go into a normal dungeon, hold aggro with my DPS build, keep people from dying and not even coming close to dying myself and on top of all of that, act as the primary healer inside of a flawless run?
I have proven that in certain circumstances, queuing as a tank with a DPS build is doable inside of certain normal dungeons.
In fact, some dungeons are infinitely easier than public dungeon bosses or world bosses.
Like I said, it depends on the content.
Because you are completely wrong in your assumption.
You assume people only fake tank on normal. You assume people only fake tank on base dungeons. And you assume every fake take will hold aggro all the time. I also bet you assume you hold aggro all the time when that is 100% not true.
As I said before. Everyone defending fake tanking in this thread only use anecdata from normal base dungeon runs to justify selfish acts.
No, I am not wrong and I am not assuming. If you read carefully at what I said "IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES", these are things I have tested pretty thoroughly which is the only reason I talk about those points in the first place and secondly there was nothing to assume. I tested it, in game. I am not asserting some made up BS out of my head, I am describing actual results of what was tested.
Again, "fake tanking" ,depending on the circumstance, is not a detriment as it is pointed out in this thread. I am seeing blanket statements saying that its universally bad, but it's not. Like all things, it has it's merit.
Does this mean I think fake tanking works in vets? NO
Does this mean I think fake tanking works in trials? NO
Does this mean I think fake tanking works on ALL world bosses? NO
Does this mean I think fake tanking works in ALL delves? NO
Does this mean I think fake tanking works for any form of content in this game that requires a tank? NO
But there are cases, this I have proven to myself with my build, where a DPS, in DPS gear, in certain content, works perfectly well with no wipes, no deaths, no issues.
Yes you are wrong and assuming alot of things related to fake tanking 98% of fake tanks are not able to taunt anything and boss is going as programed to lowesst health, as in healer.
Go ahead a fake in your own private group and stay out of mine and if you se a real tank you are free to leave. To put it free in speach "you only means trouble".
I run all roles and my main is a dps magplar. I´m I a god tank ? I hope no ! I just started out as one. There are some really dps problems out there you are not helping them.2 -
omnidoh✭✭✭
Nah, it wont.Fake tanks are few seen iin relation to the whole community. Sadly they have a very negative impact on gameplay and community.
Fake tanking have to go away and ZOS know how to do it and it will be easy to do. It dont belong in ESO and therefore I´m sure we will se a solution and an end to fake roles for good.
Not entirely true. Depends on the content. See my post above yours.
It is true and it will stop.
It won't stop until ZoS forces it to, just like pre-Greymoor Vampires didn't feed because they weren't forced to.
Everything is decided through attrition via force.
I will keep "Fake" tanking as I see fit, regardless of what you or anyone else has to say about it.
Neither you nor anyone else pays more than I did and/or do for the privilege of playing this game, so you hold no more influence over design decisions than anyone else.
You are free to hold your opinion, however contentious it may be, just as I and others are free to disagree with you and continue to do whatever we want to, within the bounds of what is permitted by the environment.
Only Zenimax decides the rules of engagement, and those rules are already set.
You have three options:- Assemble a group that matches your expectations
- Elect to use the group finder and exercise your majority power via vote-kicking (if you are the majority...)
- Accept whatever you can get and adapt to each situation
/CaseClosed4 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭
Nah, it wont.Fake tanks are few seen iin relation to the whole community. Sadly they have a very negative impact on gameplay and community.
Fake tanking have to go away and ZOS know how to do it and it will be easy to do. It dont belong in ESO and therefore I´m sure we will se a solution and an end to fake roles for good.
Not entirely true. Depends on the content. See my post above yours.
It is true and it will stop.
It won't stop until ZoS forces it to, just like pre-Greymoor Vampires didn't feed because they weren't forced to.
Everything is decided through attrition via force.
I will keep "Fake" tanking as I see fit, regardless of what you or anyone else has to say about it.
Neither you nor anyone else pays more than I did and/or do for the privilege of playing this game, so you hold no more influence over design decisions than anyone else.
You are free to hold your opinion, however contentious it may be, just as I and others are free to disagree with you and continue to do whatever we want to, within the bounds of what is permitted by the environment.
Only Zenimax decides the rules of engagement, and those rules are already set.
You have three options:- Assemble a group that matches your expectations
- Elect to use the group finder and exercise your majority power via vote-kicking (if you are the majority...)
- Accept whatever you can get and adapt to each situation
/CaseClosed
And this is exactly why we need and are asking for a better system. So people that thinks like this can get the proper punishment like being banned for using the Group Finder.
This thread has been on the top of this forum for several days now.
I really hope ZOS is listening. Almost all the other abuses in the game's systems have been addressed and punished already.
It is past time this selfish behaviour results in the proper penalties.
ZOS has already decided the rules. If you use group finder, you chose one of three roles. If you choose to tank, you taunt. If you are breaking those rules, you should get the proper punishment.
1 -
KaGaOri✭✭✭✭I will keep "Fake" tanking as I see fit, regardless of what you or anyone else has to say about it.
Neither you nor anyone else pays more than I did and/or do for the privilege of playing this game, so you hold no more influence over design decisions than anyone else.
You are free to hold your opinion, however contentious it may be, just as I and others are free to disagree with you and continue to do whatever we want to, within the bounds of what is permitted by the environment.
Only Zenimax decides the rules of engagement, and those rules are already set.
You have three options:- Assemble a group that matches your expectations
- Elect to use the group finder and exercise your majority power via vote-kicking (if you are the majority...)
- Accept whatever you can get and adapt to each situation
/CaseClosed
There have been many posts here about how/why is fake tanking ok in this thread, but it boils down to what's writen in this one. Basically it's raised middle finger to rest of the playerbase, or put in other words severe case of "me, me, me, me, me, me, ME!" There is no plausible way ZOS can change the group finder to stop this behavior. It needs to come from us as a comunity who will identify fake tanking (and fake healing) as the <morally reprehensible> (can't use the actual word, sorry) behaviour that it is and show enough disdain for it, that the potentional perpetrators will think twice before doing it.
Dungeon finder has the roles for a reason - you can either fill the role (regardless if the toon is dedicated tank, or dd with taunt and good survivability), or you have no business queuing for it. People who want to run in nonstandard group should form it on their own, not use three other unsuspecting people as stepping stones towards gain for themselves. Dungeons are team effort and you know where "I" is in a team, right?
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51O+nyTCR3L.jpg0 -
LashanW✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you want to guarantee a specific outcome with a specific set of expectations, don't rely upon the group finder.
Choose your group and queue as one.
Remember, it's a "Group" finder.
Not a "Group where everyone and everything will match my preconceived expectations" finder.
You have to select a "role" to use the group/dungeon finder. Each role icon has a tooltip explaining your basic responsibility. And certain skills that are key for each role (such as taunt skills) have a "role" entry in their tooltip. You reckon ZoS goes to the trouble of designing this stuff for *** and giggles?
Sure there are no immediate / harsh repercussions for not doing the basic responsibility of your role, but that doesn't mean you should do things that actively hamper other players' experience in this game. Now I'm not gonna assume you are someone who queues for tank role and never use a taunt since you never clarified it but if that's what you are, here's a suggestion. Try using the inner beast skill from undaunted skill line for bosses. It allows you to fulfill the tank role AND gives you a 5% dps boost. Sweet deal yeah?I'll continue to participate however I want to, regardless of whether the group agrees with me or not.
If the group vote-kicks me, I'll just re-queue.
Their loss, not mine.
There will always be people who will do anything that benefits them even if those actions cause discomfort and grief to other people. They'll justify their actions saying "there are no legal implications for my actions". Funny how some people require strict authentic rules to behave as a decent human being or else their default behavior is to be a jerk. But that also explains why "fake tanks" have to use the group finder instead of grouping up with friends.---No longer active in ESO---
Platform: PC-EU
CP: 2500+Trial Achievements
Godslayer, Gryphon Heart, Tick-Tock Tormentor, Immortal Redeemer, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, vMoL no death
Arena Achievements
vMA Flawless, vVH Spirit Slayer
DLC Dungeon Trifectas
Scalecaller Peak, Fang Lair, Depths of Malatar, Icereach4 -
Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't get why theres so many salty comments here while in dungeons no one says anything. In fact it's the opposite, peeps seem happy that they got quick run and free carry. I've never been kicked for fake tanking.
When I level new toons and do randoms, I'm always happy to get higher cp fake tank in group instead of all lvl 20s. Base game dungeons get done in 5-10min vs 30-45 with low levels and REAL roles.5 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
This is because they are being held hostage. They have a choice: risk it with the fake tank after spending almost an hour in queue, or kick the fake tank and queue again for almost an hour with a high chance of another fake tank. Meaning they would get one dungeon done in TWO hours, assuming the new tank isn't fake and the run goes smooth. But the chance is really high they get another fake tank, so it is not worth it to kick and requeue.I don't get why theres so many salty comments here while in dungeons no one says anything. In fact it's the opposite, peeps seem happy that they got quick run and free carry. I've never been kicked for fake tanking.
When I level new toons and do randoms, I'm always happy to get higher cp fake tank in group instead of all lvl 20s. Base game dungeons get done in 5-10min vs 30-45 with low levels and REAL roles.
But it is NOT permitted by the environment, this is why the role is called TANK and why one has to specifically queue for it. And queueing as a fake role is abusive on your fellow players.You are free to hold your opinion, however contentious it may be, just as I and others are free to disagree with you and continue to do whatever we want to, within the bounds of what is permitted by the environment.
Just because the bankdoors and vault are open, does not mean you just walk in and take all the money.
Basically it comes down to: Fake tanks are selfish a-'s.
And they are sooo incredibly toxic to the entire game in so many ways. This is exactly why ZOS should ASAP implement high tank role requirements and no gear swapping in dungeons. Preferably in tomorrow's update. Fake tanking is probably losing them alot of players, especially on the long term and new players(victims).
Humanity would be in a much better spot if people weren't like.... this.Edited by Sarannah on November 1, 2020 10:16AM3 -
Zodiarkslayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't get why theres so many salty comments here while in dungeons no one says anything. In fact it's the opposite, peeps seem happy that they got quick run and free carry. I've never been kicked for fake tanking.
When I level new toons and do randoms, I'm always happy to get higher cp fake tank in group instead of all lvl 20s. Base game dungeons get done in 5-10min vs 30-45 with low levels and REAL roles.
I know it is sad to say it, but this is sooooo true.
I really enjoy tanking, but last night (saturday) it was different. In two runs I was highest ranked at Cp 530ish and the rest were under lvl50. With my Tank build I ended up doing 50% of group DPS, at roughly 15k to 20k total. Both runs took me about half an hour in dungeons I previously did at 10 to 15 minutes in VET. I felt that I was holding the group back! It felt wrong. Just wrong.
I guess the strict adherence to roles is unnecessary in normal dungeons. It can even hold you back. To me forcing these roles can create really bad experience. And also limit player skill development.
@ZOS_GinaBruno <I hope i am addressing this to the right person>
Summing up all the great experiences of over 300 posts now, I think the conclusion is this: The whole group finder is up for a revisit. And the whole community should be heard beforehand to reach a reasonable improvement for everyone.If anyone here says: OH! But, PVP! I swear I'll ...
Thank you for the valuable input and respectfully recommend to discuss that aspect of ESO on the PVP forum.1 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭Below is a possible solution for this I've been suggesting for a while now.
First, let's list some things we already know ZOS does/monitors:- ZOS monitors dungeon runs: when they nerfed several vDLC dungeons, they explicitly said in the Patch Notes that they monitor dungeon completion rates and even know on which bosses most group fails. So there is already a system that records dungeon runs.
- ZOS knows which skills people use: when they addressed the less used morphs, the patch notes explicitly said that ZOS monitors which skills/morphs people use in dungeons. We can also see from ESO Logs that they already can gather very detailed information from what players actually did.
- ZOS already has systems to temporarily prevent people from using game systems: the Social Ban is a great example of a system that blocks players using certain parts of the game when they abuse it. Also, if you abandon a Battleground, you are prevented from queuing again for a certain time.
- ZOS already has Report Player and Vote to Kick functions in place: self-explanatory, we've all used that at lease once.
So, considering all those things that are already in game, my proposed solution to the fake tanking problem is as follows:
Implement a Vote to Kick or, better yet, a Report Player option called fake role or something similar. When a player gets kicked/reported for fake role, a report is generated using the systems listed above, with the skills the player had equipped and how many times they used it. I think Report Player is better because a lot of times fake tanks queue with someone else that blocks the Vote to Kick options.
If someone is reported for take tank and the system sees the person had no taunt / didn't use taunt enough times, they get a temporary ban from using Activity Finder. Repeat offenders get increasing penalties up to a full month.
Get reported a few times and the system validated? 24 hours ban from AF.
Got reported again and the system validated? 48 hours ban from AF.
Got reported yet again and the system again confirmed the abuse? 72 hours ban from AF.
Then if they keep doing it, just slap one, two weeks ban.
This needs to be done. With the increase in transmute stones from Random Dungeons and Pledges, the plague of fake tanking will get even worst next patch.
EDIT: And btw, fake tanking doesn't just affect healers and DPS trying to queue. Just yesterday I was trying to do a pledge with my tank and got put in a half-finished run. The group had a fake tank and kicked them because they couldn't pass a boss. Since I think people should always kick fake tanks, I helped them finish even though it wouldn't complete my pledge since they had already killed one of the bosses. So, the fake tank wasted their time and my time. But it goes to show that fake tanking affects everyone, even proper tanks (this happens about once a week for me when I'm regularly tanking pledges)
Edited by Calm_Fury on November 1, 2020 4:00PM1 -
dcmgti✭✭✭If I queue as a dps and there's a fake tank, I expect them to taunt bosses and not die. This usually isn't the case though and that's where the problem lies.
I main a tank but also play as a dps on two alts. What gets me more than fake tanking is when one dps keeps running ahead of the group because they are in a hurry. This creates a really crappy situation for an actual tank and other members in the group. If you have an actual tank in the group let them control the room. More often than not that person running ahead is the one dying the most.
I've gotten to the point where I ask in my guild to run random normals vs a random queue.0 -
omnidoh✭✭✭
This monitoring has nothing to do with the intent of the players who queue for them.First, let's list some things we already know ZOS does/monitors:- ZOS monitors dungeon runs: when they nerfed several vDLC dungeons, they explicitly said in the Patch Notes that they monitor dungeon completion rates and even know on which bosses most group fails. So there is already a system that records dungeon runs.
Has ZoS ever explicitly said: "Hey everyone, we are monitoring all dungeon runs to determine who is queuing for what role, and also analyzing all said runs for instances of ineffective tanking by players who queue for said roles."?
Nope, they haven't. Try again.
In fact, they wouldn't.
Why do I say this? Because in the same vein as those who would report "Fake tanks", others could report "Fake Healers" and "Fake DPS".
Example:
Suppose I think that a player queued for a role as DPS, but are really bad at it.
In fact, no. Suppose I don't *think* at all. Suppose I have the factual data that I have collected (or am actively collecting during the run) to prove that any specific players performance in a random dungeon-finder assembled group is sub-optimal, ineffective, and downright abysmal for their "role", based upon sheer mathematics. (This already exists by the way, it's called Live-Encounter Logging and is available to all players)
Do I then get to report those players for being such inept and/or incompetent participants in MY dungeon-found group?
No, I don't.
I accept whatever the dice provide by way of the other participants in my group, or I exercise my in-game options.
Yeah, so what?[*] ZOS knows which skills people use: when they addressed the less used morphs, the patch notes explicitly said that ZOS monitors which skills/morphs people use in dungeons. We can also see from ESO Logs that they already can gather very detailed information from what players actually did.
I don't see a "Fake Tank" banning option, and I don't foresee there will ever be one.[*] ZOS already has systems to temporarily prevent people from using game systems: the Social Ban is a great example of a system that blocks players using certain parts of the game when they abuse it. Also, if you abandon a Battleground, you are prevented from queuing again for a certain time.
I could prove to be incorrect, but I doubt it.
Yep, which was one of the options that has already been presented in this thread.[*] ZOS already has Report Player and Vote to Kick functions in place: self-explanatory, we've all used that at lease once.
/deadhorse
So what's to prevent abuse of that system?So, considering all those things that are already in game, my proposed solution to the fake tanking problem is as follows:
Implement a Vote to Kick or, better yet, a Report Player option called fake role or something similar. When a player gets kicked/reported for fake role, a report is generated using the systems listed above, with the skills the player had equipped and how many times they used it. I think Report Player is better because a lot of times fake tanks queue with someone else that blocks the Vote to Kick options.
If someone is reported for take tank and the system sees the person had no taunt / didn't use taunt enough times, they get a temporary ban from using Activity Finder. Repeat offenders get increasing penalties up to a full month.
Get reported a few times and the system validated? 24 hours ban from AF.
Got reported again and the system validated? 48 hours ban from AF.
Got reported yet again and the system again confirmed the abuse? 72 hours ban from AF.
Then if they keep doing it, just slap one, two weeks ban.
Suppose someone doesn't like you and they report you as a "Fake Whatever", you would then be subject to Mob Rule Politics.
Yeah, no.
To implement such a system is to promote more toxicity than already exists.
No, it doesn't.This needs to be done. With the increase in transmute stones from Random Dungeons and Pledges, the plague of fake tanking will get even worst next patch.
Let's be clear: YOU (and others who agree with you) want this done.
Unfortunately, there has been no formal Zenimax sanctioned customer referendum regarding this issue.
Until that happens, there will be no "official" tally of promoters and detractors.
Of course players can continue lobbying for the idea, and other players can also continue to lobby against it.Edited by omnidoh on November 1, 2020 7:20PM3 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭I stop fake tanking from now - I will just go solo ))) So -1 fake tank in random queue. I hope it will make more easy for you to find real tanks from now on))
And may be ask some friend for HM for more motifs drop))
https://youtu.be/mjHljTADno0 Edited by AyaDark on November 1, 2020 8:50PM1 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭
This monitoring has nothing to do with the intent of the players who queue for them.First, let's list some things we already know ZOS does/monitors:- ZOS monitors dungeon runs: when they nerfed several vDLC dungeons, they explicitly said in the Patch Notes that they monitor dungeon completion rates and even know on which bosses most group fails. So there is already a system that records dungeon runs.
Has ZoS ever explicitly said: "Hey everyone, we are monitoring all dungeon runs to determine who is queuing for what role, and also analyzing all said runs for instances of ineffective tanking by players who queue for said roles."?
Nope, they haven't. Try again.
In fact, they wouldn't.
Why do I say this? Because in the same vein as those who would report "Fake tanks", others could report "Fake Healers" and "Fake DPS".
Example:
Suppose I think that a player queued for a role as DPS, but are really bad at it.
In fact, no. Suppose I don't *think* at all. Suppose I have the factual data that I have collected (or am actively collecting during the run) to prove that any specific players performance in a random dungeon-finder assembled group is sub-optimal, ineffective, and downright abysmal for their "role", based upon sheer mathematics. (This already exists by the way, it's called Live-Encounter Logging and is available to all players)
Do I then get to report those players for being such inept and/or incompetent participants in MY dungeon-found group?
No, I don't.
I accept whatever the dice provide by way of the other participants in my group, or I exercise my in-game options.
Yeah, so what?[*] ZOS knows which skills people use: when they addressed the less used morphs, the patch notes explicitly said that ZOS monitors which skills/morphs people use in dungeons. We can also see from ESO Logs that they already can gather very detailed information from what players actually did.
I don't see a "Fake Tank" banning option, and I don't foresee there will ever be one.[*] ZOS already has systems to temporarily prevent people from using game systems: the Social Ban is a great example of a system that blocks players using certain parts of the game when they abuse it. Also, if you abandon a Battleground, you are prevented from queuing again for a certain time.
I could prove to be incorrect, but I doubt it.
Yep, which was one of the options that has already been presented in this thread.[*] ZOS already has Report Player and Vote to Kick functions in place: self-explanatory, we've all used that at lease once.
/deadhorse
So what's to prevent abuse of that system?So, considering all those things that are already in game, my proposed solution to the fake tanking problem is as follows:
Implement a Vote to Kick or, better yet, a Report Player option called fake role or something similar. When a player gets kicked/reported for fake role, a report is generated using the systems listed above, with the skills the player had equipped and how many times they used it. I think Report Player is better because a lot of times fake tanks queue with someone else that blocks the Vote to Kick options.
If someone is reported for take tank and the system sees the person had no taunt / didn't use taunt enough times, they get a temporary ban from using Activity Finder. Repeat offenders get increasing penalties up to a full month.
Get reported a few times and the system validated? 24 hours ban from AF.
Got reported again and the system validated? 48 hours ban from AF.
Got reported yet again and the system again confirmed the abuse? 72 hours ban from AF.
Then if they keep doing it, just slap one, two weeks ban.
Suppose someone doesn't like you and they report you as a "Fake Whatever", you would then be subject to Mob Rule Politics.
Yeah, no.
To implement such a system is to promote more toxicity than already exists.
No, it doesn't.This needs to be done. With the increase in transmute stones from Random Dungeons and Pledges, the plague of fake tanking will get even worst next patch.
Let's be clear: YOU (and others who agree with you) want this done.
Unfortunately, there has been no formal Zenimax sanctioned customer referendum regarding this issue.
Until that happens, there will be no "official" tally of promoters and detractors.
Of course players can continue lobbying for the idea, and other players can also continue to lobby against it.
You clearly didn't understand the post.
I said the systems are in place and they can be used for that. Not that they already are.
And you can see from this post, from YouTube and other places that a big part of the community is bothered by this.
I am sure ZOS does not intend for people to skip queue times by fake tanking. It just hasn't been on their radar until now.
Hopefully, by this post and by how sure this will get worst in the new patch, it does.
I really hope all the players here admitting how selfish and inconsiderate they are get the punishment they deserve for ruining other people's runs and wasting their time.
I think the time for this is coming soon, since the system will be abused even more with the new transmute crystals drops for randoms.1 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭
This monitoring has nothing to do with the intent of the players who queue for them.First, let's list some things we already know ZOS does/monitors:- ZOS monitors dungeon runs: when they nerfed several vDLC dungeons, they explicitly said in the Patch Notes that they monitor dungeon completion rates and even know on which bosses most group fails. So there is already a system that records dungeon runs.
Has ZoS ever explicitly said: "Hey everyone, we are monitoring all dungeon runs to determine who is queuing for what role, and also analyzing all said runs for instances of ineffective tanking by players who queue for said roles."?
Nope, they haven't. Try again.
In fact, they wouldn't.
Why do I say this? Because in the same vein as those who would report "Fake tanks", others could report "Fake Healers" and "Fake DPS".
Example:
Suppose I think that a player queued for a role as DPS, but are really bad at it.
In fact, no. Suppose I don't *think* at all. Suppose I have the factual data that I have collected (or am actively collecting during the run) to prove that any specific players performance in a random dungeon-finder assembled group is sub-optimal, ineffective, and downright abysmal for their "role", based upon sheer mathematics. (This already exists by the way, it's called Live-Encounter Logging and is available to all players)
Do I then get to report those players for being such inept and/or incompetent participants in MY dungeon-found group?
No, I don't.
I accept whatever the dice provide by way of the other participants in my group, or I exercise my in-game options.
Yeah, so what?[*] ZOS knows which skills people use: when they addressed the less used morphs, the patch notes explicitly said that ZOS monitors which skills/morphs people use in dungeons. We can also see from ESO Logs that they already can gather very detailed information from what players actually did.
I don't see a "Fake Tank" banning option, and I don't foresee there will ever be one.[*] ZOS already has systems to temporarily prevent people from using game systems: the Social Ban is a great example of a system that blocks players using certain parts of the game when they abuse it. Also, if you abandon a Battleground, you are prevented from queuing again for a certain time.
I could prove to be incorrect, but I doubt it.
Yep, which was one of the options that has already been presented in this thread.[*] ZOS already has Report Player and Vote to Kick functions in place: self-explanatory, we've all used that at lease once.
/deadhorse
So what's to prevent abuse of that system?So, considering all those things that are already in game, my proposed solution to the fake tanking problem is as follows:
Implement a Vote to Kick or, better yet, a Report Player option called fake role or something similar. When a player gets kicked/reported for fake role, a report is generated using the systems listed above, with the skills the player had equipped and how many times they used it. I think Report Player is better because a lot of times fake tanks queue with someone else that blocks the Vote to Kick options.
If someone is reported for take tank and the system sees the person had no taunt / didn't use taunt enough times, they get a temporary ban from using Activity Finder. Repeat offenders get increasing penalties up to a full month.
Get reported a few times and the system validated? 24 hours ban from AF.
Got reported again and the system validated? 48 hours ban from AF.
Got reported yet again and the system again confirmed the abuse? 72 hours ban from AF.
Then if they keep doing it, just slap one, two weeks ban.
Suppose someone doesn't like you and they report you as a "Fake Whatever", you would then be subject to Mob Rule Politics.
Yeah, no.
To implement such a system is to promote more toxicity than already exists.
No, it doesn't.This needs to be done. With the increase in transmute stones from Random Dungeons and Pledges, the plague of fake tanking will get even worst next patch.
Let's be clear: YOU (and others who agree with you) want this done.
Unfortunately, there has been no formal Zenimax sanctioned customer referendum regarding this issue.
Until that happens, there will be no "official" tally of promoters and detractors.
Of course players can continue lobbying for the idea, and other players can also continue to lobby against it.
You clearly didn't understand the post.
I said the systems are in place and they can be used for that. Not that they already are.
And you can see from this post, from YouTube and other places that a big part of the community is bothered by this.
I am sure ZOS does not intend for people to skip queue times by fake tanking. It just hasn't been on their radar until now.
Hopefully, by this post and by how sure this will get worst in the new patch, it does.
I really hope all the players here admitting how selfish and inconsiderate they are get the punishment they deserve for ruining other people's runs and wasting their time.
I think the time for this is coming soon, since the system will be abused even more with the new transmute crystals drops for randoms.
You could take ALL 3 roles 2 years ago. Than they fix it and only one role can be taken. So it was dunguan nerf. They do CP more and they do DLC from 300+, than they nerf it all. All dunguans are hardly nerfed now.
People - just play better. For people before you it was not a problem even on lover level with 3 roles ON - so random roles.
Just think about it.
It is not fake tank or something - just really low level of play of current gamrers.
What they must do next - only put 1 button on - "You win >?" And remove any chance of losing ?
It is not OK. Play normal if you are not veterans - normal can be done on naked characters. Even some vet DLC can be passed naked.
If you go vet - then play like veterans - not like some cry babes.Edited by AyaDark on November 1, 2020 10:00PM3 -
MirandaSharp✭✭✭✭An option may be to display info on the players in queue(armor weight, health, level+cp) and let the user accept or deny based on what's on offer in the current queue. If deny, then someone else gets your slot in the queue and you requeue for the next group matchup.
This of course says nothing about the player... Someone can still have all the stats, but suck at the role..0 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭
This monitoring has nothing to do with the intent of the players who queue for them.First, let's list some things we already know ZOS does/monitors:- ZOS monitors dungeon runs: when they nerfed several vDLC dungeons, they explicitly said in the Patch Notes that they monitor dungeon completion rates and even know on which bosses most group fails. So there is already a system that records dungeon runs.
Has ZoS ever explicitly said: "Hey everyone, we are monitoring all dungeon runs to determine who is queuing for what role, and also analyzing all said runs for instances of ineffective tanking by players who queue for said roles."?
Nope, they haven't. Try again.
In fact, they wouldn't.
Why do I say this? Because in the same vein as those who would report "Fake tanks", others could report "Fake Healers" and "Fake DPS".
Example:
Suppose I think that a player queued for a role as DPS, but are really bad at it.
In fact, no. Suppose I don't *think* at all. Suppose I have the factual data that I have collected (or am actively collecting during the run) to prove that any specific players performance in a random dungeon-finder assembled group is sub-optimal, ineffective, and downright abysmal for their "role", based upon sheer mathematics. (This already exists by the way, it's called Live-Encounter Logging and is available to all players)
Do I then get to report those players for being such inept and/or incompetent participants in MY dungeon-found group?
No, I don't.
I accept whatever the dice provide by way of the other participants in my group, or I exercise my in-game options.
Yeah, so what?[*] ZOS knows which skills people use: when they addressed the less used morphs, the patch notes explicitly said that ZOS monitors which skills/morphs people use in dungeons. We can also see from ESO Logs that they already can gather very detailed information from what players actually did.
I don't see a "Fake Tank" banning option, and I don't foresee there will ever be one.[*] ZOS already has systems to temporarily prevent people from using game systems: the Social Ban is a great example of a system that blocks players using certain parts of the game when they abuse it. Also, if you abandon a Battleground, you are prevented from queuing again for a certain time.
I could prove to be incorrect, but I doubt it.
Yep, which was one of the options that has already been presented in this thread.[*] ZOS already has Report Player and Vote to Kick functions in place: self-explanatory, we've all used that at lease once.
/deadhorse
So what's to prevent abuse of that system?So, considering all those things that are already in game, my proposed solution to the fake tanking problem is as follows:
Implement a Vote to Kick or, better yet, a Report Player option called fake role or something similar. When a player gets kicked/reported for fake role, a report is generated using the systems listed above, with the skills the player had equipped and how many times they used it. I think Report Player is better because a lot of times fake tanks queue with someone else that blocks the Vote to Kick options.
If someone is reported for take tank and the system sees the person had no taunt / didn't use taunt enough times, they get a temporary ban from using Activity Finder. Repeat offenders get increasing penalties up to a full month.
Get reported a few times and the system validated? 24 hours ban from AF.
Got reported again and the system validated? 48 hours ban from AF.
Got reported yet again and the system again confirmed the abuse? 72 hours ban from AF.
Then if they keep doing it, just slap one, two weeks ban.
Suppose someone doesn't like you and they report you as a "Fake Whatever", you would then be subject to Mob Rule Politics.
Yeah, no.
To implement such a system is to promote more toxicity than already exists.
No, it doesn't.This needs to be done. With the increase in transmute stones from Random Dungeons and Pledges, the plague of fake tanking will get even worst next patch.
Let's be clear: YOU (and others who agree with you) want this done.
Unfortunately, there has been no formal Zenimax sanctioned customer referendum regarding this issue.
Until that happens, there will be no "official" tally of promoters and detractors.
Of course players can continue lobbying for the idea, and other players can also continue to lobby against it.
You clearly didn't understand the post.
I said the systems are in place and they can be used for that. Not that they already are.
And you can see from this post, from YouTube and other places that a big part of the community is bothered by this.
I am sure ZOS does not intend for people to skip queue times by fake tanking. It just hasn't been on their radar until now.
Hopefully, by this post and by how sure this will get worst in the new patch, it does.
I really hope all the players here admitting how selfish and inconsiderate they are get the punishment they deserve for ruining other people's runs and wasting their time.
I think the time for this is coming soon, since the system will be abused even more with the new transmute crystals drops for randoms.
You could take ALL 3 roles 2 years ago. Than they fix it and only one role can be taken. So it was dunguan nerf. They do CP more and they do DLC from 300+, than they nerf it all. All dunguans are hardly nerfed now.
People - just play better. For people before you it was not a problem even on lover level with 3 roles ON - so random roles.
Just think about it.
It is not fake tank or something - just really low level of play of current gamrers.
What they must do next - only put 1 button on - "You win >?" And remove any chance of losing ?
It is not OK. Play normal if you are not veterans - normal can be done on naked characters. Even some vet DLC can be passed naked.
If you go vet - then play like veterans - not like some cry babes.
I honestly have no idea what you were trying to say. I know you quoted me, but I really didn't get what you wanted to say here.1
